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Mariupol Mayor Reports New Mass Grave Near City; Zelenskyy: U.S. Officials Should Not Come Empty-Handed; Kremlin Silences Russian Journalists; Kremlin Draws Moldova's Ire; France's High-Stakes Presidential Runoff; Ukraine Celebrates Orthodox Easter Despite Dangers of War; Doctors Compare COVID-19 Natural Immunity against Vaccine; Depp v. Heard. Aired 1-2a ET

Aired April 24, 2022 - 01:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): This is CNN breaking news.

ISA SOARES, CNN ANCHOR AND CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Hello and a very warm welcome to our viewers joining us in the United States and right around the world. I'm Isa Soares, live in Lviv, Ukraine.

Rescue work underway in Odessa as Russian forces continue their brutal strikes in the southern and eastern regions of Ukraine.

MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN ANCHOR AND CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): I'm Michael Holmes, live from CNN World Headquarters in Atlanta. We are one hour away from the polls opening in the French presidential election. It's Macron versus Le Pen, the rematch.

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SOARES: Thanks for your company, everyone. It's 8:00 am in Ukraine.

Orthodox Christians across this country are celebrating Easter Sunday today. But this year's holy observance has been deeply marred by Russia's ongoing as well as brutal invasion and the unspeakable atrocities left in their wake.

That said, there are high expectations this Easter that U.S. secretary of state Antony Blinken and Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin will arrive today in the capital, their presence a powerful symbol of U.S. support as the Russian war hits the two-month mark and shows every sign of getting worse.

On Saturday, a Russian missile slammed into a residential building in the southern port of Odessa. The mayor says eight people were killed, including an infant.

But Ukrainians continue to fight back. The defense ministry reports taking out 17 Russian air assets just on Saturday. It said anti- aircraft missiles shot down three Russian aircraft, five cruise missiles and nine tactical drones. CNN's Matt Rivers has more on the U.S. officials visiting Kyiv and what Ukraine's leader hopes to get out of it.

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MATT RIVERS, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): High- profile visitors for the Orthodox Easter holiday in Ukraine. On Saturday, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy told reporters he would meet with top U.S. officials in Kyiv on Sunday.

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): I don't think this is a big secret. The people from the U.S. are coming to us tomorrow. I shall be meeting with the state secretary, Mr. Blinken, and the Defense Secretary. And we will be waiting for the time when the security situation allows for the president to come and talk to us.

RIVERS (voice-over): The U.S. State Department and White House declined to comment on the matter. But Zelenskyy said talks alone won't help Ukraine.

ZELENSKYY (through translator): Why is it important for leaders to come to us?

I will give you a pragmatic answer. Because they should not come here with empty hands now. We are waiting not just for presents or cakes. We are expecting specific things and specific weapons.

RIVERS (voice-over): On Friday, a Russian general made clear one of Moscow's goals in Ukraine by saying Russia intends to seize southern parts of the country to create a land corridor between the Eastern Donbas region and Crimea.

On Saturday, for the first time in weeks, Russia launched major strikes on the southern port city of Odessa, which Ukrainian officials say hit a residential building, killing at least eight, including an infant.

The Russian defense ministry said it was targeting a terminal which housed weapons supplied by the United States and European nations. There was also no letup in the bombardment of the Eastern regions of the country.

Kharkiv, once again, came under fire after a barrage of Russian shells fell on the city. And the governor of the Luhansk region urged civilians to leave if they could, describing the situation there as around-the-clock bombing.

The Ukrainian government add new curfews across the country, saying there could be an increase in Russian attacks over the holiday weekend. Fierce battles for the territory that Zelenskyy will no doubt press his potential VIP visitors Sunday for more help in trying to win -- Matt Rivers, CNN, Kyiv, Ukraine.

(END VIDEOTAPE) SOARES: You saw President Zelenskyy holding a news conference in

Kyiv, a rather remarkable news conference at that. Our Phil Black was there and has this report for you.

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PHIL BLACK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We are emerging from an extraordinary wartime presidential press conference that was both theatrical and relatively set from Russian missiles.

President Zelenskyy summoned the Ukrainian and international media deep underground to attend a slickly produced event in one of Kyiv's metro stations.

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BLACK (voice-over): There, on one of the platforms, even with the odd train flying past, took questions on the state of the war for about two hours. At times, he was emotional, especially notably when discussing missile strikes on the city of Odessa on Saturday, that he says killed a 3-month-old child.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ZELENSKYY (through translator): When the war started, this child was a month old. And the child died. Just realize that, grasp it, bastards.

What can I say?

These are just bloody bastards. I have no other words and I'm sorry -- but bastards.

BLACK: Could you please give us your assessment of Russia's plans but also its capabilities for its operations in the east, in the Donbas?

Will Russia or, perhaps more importantly, can Russia launch a large- scale push to break through your defensive lines?

Or is this looming as a slower, longer, grinding military operation?

And, secondly, do you believe your allies are finally getting the message?

Are they sending you the heavy weapons you need?

Thank you.

ZELENSKYY (through translator): If they, God forbid, occupy something, we'll get it back. It will not be a matter of 10 or 20 years, not a war like we had starting from 2014. We've had this for eight years.

Concerning the armaments, if we have enough of it, we'll return it immediately. We'll take our territories back immediately. We see a change. We see this change regarding our Western partners. I can see the change in the speed of response, especially in the United States.

BLACK: President Zelenskyy said getting the right weapons will be a big part of his agenda when he meets with the U.S. secretaries of State and Defense in Kyiv on Sunday -- Phil Black, CNN, Kyiv.

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SOARES: I'd like to bring in Ekaterina Kotrikadze, news director and anchor at TV Rain, an independent Russian news outlet. She joins us now from Tbilisi, Georgia.

Thank you very much for being with us. What we have been seeing on CNN, from correspondents on the ground across Ukraine, is terror being inflicted across the population here, bodies being piled up on the streets.

Some of them, in fact, with bullets in their backs, mass graves being uncovered and then civilians being tricked into buses to Russian-held territory, something we've been seen in Mariupol.

Is any of this reaching the people of Russia?

EKATERINA KOTRIKADZE, NEWS DIRECTOR AND ANCHOR, TV RAIN: The people of Russia have -- so far, they have the opportunity to use internet. They still have the opportunity to go on YouTube to watch, for example, YouTube streams, that we are doing here, the journalists who were obliged and forced to leave the country.

There are several, even a lot of journalists, independent journalists, who have these YouTube streams. And people are watching. A main part of the viewers are from Russia. YouTube is not banned so far.

But Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, these social media networks are actually banned in Russia. But still, people use VPN. And it is really important to understand that a new generation in Russian Federation is more sophisticated than Vladimir Putin and his team technologically. They know how to be one step ahead of the regime.

So that's why they're still getting information. And people are posting. There was a story of a father, who was aggressively supporting Vladimir Putin's so-called special operation in Ukraine until he lost his son on this flagship, Moskva, which sank.

Right now, we are all witnessing the process of, you know, waking up of this person. And he suddenly understood what was going on. And he's posting on social media what his feelings are. And he's talking with other relatives and fathers and mothers of Russian sailors, who also died on this flagship.

And Moscow is not actually saying a word about the victims. So you know, it's going to be more and more of this kind of story, unfortunately. And there's going to be more and more people who will understand what was going on and what is going on.

SOARES: Katarina, on that point, I saw the posts from the father. I think his son was a cook in the Moskva. He was questioning the fact that the Kremlin, Russia was saying that actually they'd been rescued.

But kind of -- the father was asking, well, my son's missing, where exactly is he?

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SOARES: How long can they keep this narrative going?

Give me a sense, for example for today, what is the top story in Russia today?

What is making news bulletins this hour?

KOTRIKADZE: They are liberating the cities and towns of Ukraine. I mean, honestly, this is what they are saying. They are showing people, who are thanking Russian army. They do not show the destroyed cities, the destroyed towns. They are not talking about 3-month-old child that you have just mentioned in Odessa, who was killed.

They do not show this terrible picture of death. They are, you know, hiring representatives of so-called Russian administrations in the occupied territory -- on the occupied territories, who are making these statements.

And they want 100 million people in Russia to trust this fake statements with, "thank you so much for coming and for liberating and setting us free from this Nazi regime."

This is getting more and more fake. This is getting more and more ridiculous. And I'm pretty sure there are people who are at least doubting what they are seeing, because there's so many journalists in Ukraine, in different cities of the country, there are so many journalists and independent media who are covering the story and who are abandoning Russia.

So I suppose there are people who can ask just one tiny question, what is going on?

Why is Russian Federation banning all this international news or independent news outlets?

Does it mean that something is wrong here?

Why the censorship is here on the ground in Russia?

So, yes, I think it means, for millions of people in Russian Federation, that there is going to be a moment of understanding, of acknowledging the whole catastrophe.

SOARES: Ekaterina, that's what makes your work and so many other independent journalists so important. Thank you for your work, Ekaterina Kotrikadze, appreciate it.

And Michael, what's staggering, hearing from Ekaterina, I don't know if you remember earlier this week, our Clarissa Ward in the field went to one town in Ukraine. And she spoke to one couple. And the lady, this elderly lady, if you remember, she said she blamed not Russia but the U.S.

So it's not as black and white, even within Ukrainian territory, this information, misinformation from Russia, seeping through to the borders of Ukraine. And that is incredibly worrying indeed, Michael.

HOLMES: Yes, some neighboring countries as well. Thank you for that and that interview, Isa, fascinating stuff.

Moldova has summoned Russia's ambassador to the country following Russia's announcement that its military is aiming to control southern Ukraine all the way across to Moldova.

The country's ministry of foreign affairs says it, quote, "expressed deep concerns" over the statements made by a Russian general and broadcast on Russian state media. The Russian military says controlling Ukraine's south would give its forces access to Transnistria, a separatist region in Moldova.

Earlier I spoke with Jeffrey Gettleman, a foreign correspondent for "The New York Times," and he explained the significance of Russia's moves and why it is so worrisome to Moldova.

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JEFFREY GETTLEMAN, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": This would be like a hugely ambitious gamble by Russia. Right now, they are trying to control a small part of Ukraine's east. And what this general came out and said, out of the blue on Friday, was that they were going to take the entire coastline of Ukraine, all the way to Moldova, which would be hundreds of miles.

They are very far from that. But if they did do that, which is why this became such a big deal and people got very worried, it would put them right next to Moldova, at the doorway to Europe.

And Moldova was a country that used to be part of the Soviet Union. And many people right now are worried that Russia's trying to reconstitute elements of the Soviet Union. So there is a history here of Russian interference in this region and that's why it provoked all these fears.

HOLMES: And you wrote in "The New York Times" a couple days ago, about how vulnerable Moldova is, in that sense but also, how it had big plans before this invasion. Tell us more about that.

GETTLEMAN: OK, sure. I mean, the vulnerability is really interesting. When Moldova was created after the Soviet Union collapsed, it put in its constitution, we will remain neutral, which means they won't join an alliance like NATO.

[01:15:00]

GETTLEMAN: They won't join a Russian military alliance. They really want to be neutral.

Part of that, also, today means they have a very small army. They have a national army of, like, 10,000 people. So they have intentionally tried to stay out of any military conflicts, which makes them very vulnerable.

At the same time, they have been trying to grow economically. Moldova is one of the poorest countries in Europe. The per capita income is something, like, $6,000, which is -- which is very low, compared to other European countries.

But they did have all these plans. I visited a winery. Moldova actually makes lots of wine and some pretty good wine and this winery had all these plans to expand, to build a resort, to build a spa. Businesses across the country were really gearing up to join the world.

And this crisis in Ukraine, this war, has just ground all their plans to a halt.

HOLMES: Let us go back and touch again on something you raised earlier and speak a little bit more about how Putin's broader desire to reconstitute a greater Russia and an empire plays into this Moldovan strategy. It is not about battlefield strategy. It's a -- it's a bigger thing, isn't it?

GETTLEMAN: It is. It's like this dream. It's this vision. It is this ideology that these countries should be together. And they were together for, you know, 60, 70, 80 years.

Moldova has a very interesting identity. Half the country speaks Russian. The other half speaks Romanian. Those two languages are totally different, totally different orientation. One part of the country is looking West. One part of the country is looking East.

So it's vulnerable. It is in this awkward position and it is very small. And that is why it got sucked into the Soviet Union in the 1920s. And then it was more solidified as part of Russia's sphere of influence up until the 1990s and it's never really gotten away.

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HOLMES: Jeffrey Gettleman speaking to me earlier.

French voters go to the polls in the next hour to pick their president. Next up, Emmanuel Macron and Marine Le Pen head to head for the second time in five years.

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HOLMES: In less than one hour, polls will open in France for the final showdown of the presidential race. Incumbent Emmanuel Macron is facing far-right leader Marine Le Pen in the runoff, the two candidates polar opposites in their visions for the nation's future.

Mr. Macron wants a free market-oriented France at the head of a powerful E.U. Le Pen pushing for economic protectionism and an overhaul of relations with allies.

For more I'm joined by CNN European affairs commentator, Dominic Thomas, from Paris, very early in the morning.

The beginning of a long day for you. These polls will be open in a few hours.

What do we expect in terms of turnout in this election?

One of the big issues has been apathy, how engaged voters are.

DOMINIC THOMAS, CNN EUROPEAN AFFAIRS COMMENTATOR: Yes, based on the last three election cycles, what we've seen is voter turnout has dropped off between the two rounds and abstentions have also been rising.

So based on what happened in the first round, I expect 25 percent or more of French people to actually not even bother going to the ballot boxes. This apathy being driven widespread sentiment of lack of representation.

This is a country which has gone through major political changes, the mainstream parties no longer do very well and it's a winner takes all system.

It's compounded by the fact that, as much as French voters are accustomed to voting against a candidate in the runoff stages, the fact that a Le Pen family member has been on the ballot three of the last five times -- and they've simply been asked to vote against that far-right alternative -- has left people feeling a little bit frustrated with the way in which France is going and what these other candidates represent for them.

HOLMES: As we broadcast to the world, the conflict in Ukraine has really put a spotlight on the candidates' foreign policies.

Why are those platforms crucial for Europe and the world in this particular election?

THOMAS: It's really what has distinguished, in the runoff stage, Marine Le Pen and Emmanuel Macron. She, as a far-right candidate, has been embracing for the last 20-plus years this image of a declining France that is somehow -- can be interpreted or explained by the proverbial three Is -- immigration, identity and cultural challenges presented in France, as she claims, by Islam.

In contrast, Emmanuel Macron, who, going into this election, would have been subjected to far more scrutiny on his domestic issues, it's really the international crisis and situation that has underscored that, at this moment in history, a leader who believes in the European Union, believes in NATO and believes in multilateralism, is absolutely crucial. I think to that extent, Marine Le Pen looks like a candidate on the

wrong side of history and Emmanuel Macron has been able to build on his foreign policy credentials. And that has strengthened his chances in this election.

HOLMES: I saw a voter interviewed on television earlier, who said that the choice in this election is like choosing between cholera and the plague, which doesn't say a lot for the mood in the country.

Just how fed up are people with politics?

THOMAS: Yes, they are. They're disillusioned. Of course, that's a sort of analogy that we've heard in so many different kinds of contexts, the fact that there's a difference between cholera and the plague is obvious.

But in this case there is a radical difference between what Marine Le Pen represents and these far-right ideals and credentials that really would undermine the working of Europe. It's not what Europe needs at this stage. But the broader question really has been, with this erosion, the presidential election.

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THOMAS: This winner takes all that doesn't provide you with the kind of representation you get through coalition and party formations, for example, in Germany, means people ultimately, by embracing these smaller political groups and parties, really feel left out of the political process and have to wait for the legislatures to try and restore some of that.

So you have these competing visions as to where France is going today. And I think that, by the time we get to the next election cycles, so many of these political leaders and so on will have transitioned, France is going to have to really look carefully at this political process, which is very much divided right now.

About a third, a third, a third between the far left, the far right and these centrist political parties.

HOLMES: How soon after polls close can we expect a definitive result?

And what happens then?

THOMAS: Well, Sunday here is going to be an exciting day. Polls close at 7:00 pm Paris time. It is expected that the, quote, "official" results will be released around that 8:00 pm hour. So about 2:00 pm in the afternoon Eastern time in Atlanta, New York.

HOLMES: All right, Dominic Thomas, good to have you there on the spot. As I said, the start of a long day for you. Appreciate it, thanks, Dominic.

THOMAS: Thank you, Michael.

HOLMES: And be sure to tune in for our special live Election Day coverage that starts Sunday at 8:00 pm Paris time, 2:00 pm in North America on the East Coast, right here on CNN.

I'm Michael Holmes. Thanks so much for joining us. Our international viewers have "AFRICAN VOICES: CHANGEMAKERS" next. For everyone else in North America, stick around. Isa Soares and will be around with more news in a moment.

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SOARES: In any other year, Ukrainians would be celebrating Orthodox Easter Sunday. But this year, celebrations are being marred by Russia's war; 5 million people have fled to other countries and over 7 million are displaced within Ukraine. Many won't have a home to return to.

Meanwhile, the carnage continues. Officials say Russian missile strikes in the port city of Odessa killed eight people. The city's mayor says an infant was among the dead in a residential building.

Ukraine's defense ministry said it had some success Saturday, killing two Russian generals in a strike in the Kherson region. The ministry added it hit 17 targets, including Russian aircraft. No comment yet from the Kremlin and we have not yet verified those claims.

We're waiting for word that U.S. secretary of state Antony Blinken and Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin will be arriving in Kyiv. In a rare move, President Zelenskyy announced their visit on Saturday. Those kinds of visits, as you can imagine, usually not announced ahead of time for security, operational security reasons.

Meanwhile, the patriarch of the Russian Orthodox church has expressed his full support of Vladimir Putin's war against Ukraine. Fredricka Whitfield spoke to Russia expert Tom Nichols and asked him why the Russian president thought he was doing God's will.

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TOM NICHOLS, CONTRIBUTING WRITER, "THE ATLANTIC": Well, Putin has been surrounded for years now by nationalistic, right-wing figures and clerics and priests in the Russian Orthodox Church, including the patriarch, who has a long history of being, to put it gently, very comfortable with the security services and with state power.

And was this the Putin of 20 years ago?

Hard to say. I think he misses the Soviet Union but that nostalgia for the Soviet period has translated into this notion goaded on by the people around him that he can restore something even bigger than the Soviet Union.

He can put the Russian world back together under the aegis of Orthodox Christianity. And I think he genuinely believes it now.

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: And how did we get here?

How did he get to this point?

He didn't appear to publicly strengthen his ties until his third term in office.

What was the catalyst for this change that you just stated, which really does solidify his power base?

NICHOLS: Yes, that's a great question, Fredricka, and I'm not sure. I think part of it dovetailed with his personal interests of staying in power forever. Once he decided to go for that third term, I think like any gangster boss, he decided that he was safer in power.

As Tony Soprano once said, guys like him don't retire. They end up in jail or dead. And I think that was a decision that was made easier by having the church say, your rule, as the patriarch said, is a miracle of God and that you deserve to stay in power.

But I also think when the Soviet dream finally ebbed away and it took years, there was a vacuum in both Putin's regime and Russian society that had to be filled with something else.

And I think this messianism that has always been present in Russian culture has now reared its head in this kind of horrific synergy with Soviet imperialism, Russian messianism and what I, on a personal level, consider to be the hijacking and utter grievous maligning of Orthodoxy as the source of the war.

WHITFIELD: Is it really less about his belief and more about the rhetoric and how this is part of the brainwashing mechanism to lead people to believe that his intentions are all based in religion and that he's carrying out God's work.

NICHOLS: At some point, it doesn't matter anymore. Kurt Vonnegut, one of my favorite lines from the great writer, Kurt Vonnegut, that, "We are what we pretend to be. And so we must be careful what we pretend to be."

And I think that after enough years, with enough people around you, in the bubble that Putin lives in -- and that bubble has only gotten worse during COVID-19, where he's been in isolation-- I think it's easy to believe that your interests, the interests of the state and the interests of Almighty God himself are now all in unison and that you're doing the right thing.

And I think the inability of the people around him to sway him on any of this, if they tried at all, really, I think, testifies to that.

WHITFIELD: And then what's the explanation of the head of the Russian Orthodox church who is willing to call Putin a miracle of God?

What's behind that? NICHOLS: Yes. Kirill has always been ambitious. He likes the good life. The Russian Orthodox Church had to scramble a while back to try to airbrush out the fact that he walks around wearing $30,000 watches.

I think this is greed, an appetite for power. And also, there's an internal feud in the Orthodox Church. Remember that a few years ago, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church split away from the Moscow patriarchy, from Moscow's ecclesiastical control.

And Kirill was furious about that. And so Kirill is acting like any other member of the Russian imperialist leadership. The fact that he happens to be a priest and going it under the guise of religion doesn't change the fact that he's basically part of the leadership team that literally has blessed this war.

WHITFIELD: Willing to be bought, willing to be persuaded by gifts or money.

NICHOLS: Well, it's not just being bought. It's that he's a powerful man. He enjoys being a powerful man. He doesn't like that the other Orthodox in Ukraine have broken away from Moscow's control.

And I think he believes what Putin believes, that the Russians have a destiny to control the Slavic Orthodox world. There's no tension between opportunism and deeply held beliefs in this case. Both of those things are at work here.

WHITFIELD: So if Putin is able to use religious as an aspect in starting the war, might that also be the gateway of potentially ending it?

NICHOLS: One would hope. But I think it actually makes it more difficult to end it without some sense of a victory.

If you begin a war believing that you are actually doing something that has existential importance, it would almost be easier to end this war if Putin were just making a land grab or trying to control gas and oil or coal. You can negotiate with someone like that.

I think it's going to make it more difficult for him to climb down after all of this soaring rhetoric about the Slavic world and our brothers and sisters and liberating them from Nazis. It's clearly happening. The Russians have been toning down the rhetoric even while they're amping up the violence.

But I think part of the reason that world leaders have found him difficult to talk to about this and several have -- the Austrian chancellor, the French president, they have all come away saying, this guy, you just can't talk to this guy.

I think that's part of the reason. This kind of existential belief in his mission is partly what is making this war so difficult to negotiate Russia's way out of.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SOARES: A really fascinating discussion there.

Ukrainian officials telling CNN that Russia has rejected a holiday cease-fire for Easter. Despite the dangers and being separated by the fighting, many of the faithful are coming home to spend the holiday with the family, as I found out.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SOARES (voice-over): As fighting rages on in the east of Ukraine, in Lviv, a city that has mostly been spared by Russia's wrath, parishioners gather for protection and reflection, a somber affair for many this year.

"It is less festive this year," this mother of three says. "But we want to keep our traditions and we want our kids to understand that God is with us. He helps us. We will win.

[01:35:00]

SOARES (voice-over): "And, in this big day, the victory will be ours."

Despite calls to stay home, young and old line up with their adorned food baskets for a blessing from above.

Around the corner, kindness shared with strangers.

SOARES: Very good.

SOARES (voice-over): An opportunity, too, for many Ukrainians to support the troops on the front line, with food donations and prayers.

"We are both sad and joyful in this day because we believe in our soldiers," this parishioner tells me. "We are worried for them. We are praying for them. And we are asking God to help all of us."

Others, though, are still too scared to venture to church this Easter.

So we meet Bilika Fortunes (ph), a young family that today is also feeling thankful.

"I think I've never been this happy in my life," tells me this young mother. Annamaria (ph) says she left Ukraine for Poland when the war started, alone, nine months pregnant and carrying a world of worry on her shoulders.

"When we were separated from each other, it put a huge burden psychologically on us. We were constantly reading the news," she says. "And the situation in Ukraine in general, we were very worried."

Without her husband or family by her side and while her own country was being ripped apart by suffering, the 25-year old in her own agony gave birth to a little miracle, Baby Marita (ph).

And this gushing father couldn't be happier to have his girls by his side. "I have realized that my wife is not just a woman, she is a hero," he

says, "and that if I was in her shoes, I wouldn't be able to. I would have broken down."

A family finally reunited and counting their blessings this Easter in the long and dark shadow of war.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SOARES: Grandma with little Marita (ph) in her hands, wonderful to see.

Still lot come, CNN's Dr. Sanjay Gupta examines whether a COVID infection offers as much immunity as a vaccination. You're watching CNN NEWSROOM.

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HOLMES: Condolences are starting to come in after the passing of the longest serving Republican senator in U.S. history. Former Utah senator Orrin Hatch died Saturday at the age of 88. He served in the Senate for 42 years before retiring in 2019.

Current Senate minority leader Mitch McConnell is praising him for playing a key role in what he called major legislative accomplishments. Senator Mitt Romney, who took over from Hatch in the chamber, calls him a man of vision and unparalleled Senate achievements.

Inflation has hit practically every corner of the world, driven by, among other things, COVID, oil prices and the war in Ukraine. Especially hardhit, Latin America. Journalist Stefano Pozzebon looks at the impact in several countries in that region with some presidential elections in the near future.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

STEFANO POZZEBON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In the slum of Pamplona A long time ago in the outskirts of lima, Elena Rodriguez sets off shopping for her lunch service. Rodriguez works as a cook in a soup kitchen, preparing meals for some of the most vulnerable residents of the slum. But lately, even simple soup has become too pricey.

ELENA RODRIGUEZ, SOUP KITCHEN COOK (through translator): Before things were accessible, everything -- vegetables, potatoes -- now all of that is very expensive. Prices have gone up so much, I don't know what to do anymore.

POZZEBON (voice-over): Rodriguez said she started cutting down on meat to keep her cooking at an affordable price. But her situation is far from alone. In the Brazilian city of Rio de Janeiro, her colleague, Antonio Silma (ph), has a similar recipe.

ANTONIO SILMA (PH), COOK (through translator): Poor people can only eat fish, sausages and chicken. They can forget about meat.

POZZEBON (voice-over): Inflation triggered by the Russian invasion of Ukraine and by rising oil prices around the world is hitting hard in Latin America, where millions are exposed to rising food prices with no safety net to fall back on.

Peru's inflation in March reached the highest level in 26 years. Brazil had last seen these levels of inflation when it created a new currency to escape an inflationary wave in the 1990s. In Argentina, along with a textbook case of hyperinflation, the president launched a new offensive against an old foe.

ALBERTO FERNANDEZ, PRESIDENT OF ARGENTINA (through translator): On Friday, we start a new war. It's the war against inflation.

POZZEBON (voice-over): Prices are spiking just as economies were beginning to recover from the impact of the COVID-19 lockdowns. According to the United Nations, an additional 14 million Latin Americans have gone hungry since 2019. Thousands have taken to the streets.

In Brazil, where inflation will play a key role in the presidential elections later this year or in Peru, where at least six people died during this general strike against rising fuel prices.

In Pamplona Alta, Rodriguez has managed somehow to fill her pots and lunch will be served for now. Outside her kitchen, the pots are empty, filled only with cries of anger: hunger awaits us -- Stefano Pozzebon, CNN, Bogota.

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HOLMES: A White House official telling CNN the Biden administration will continue its push with lawmakers to secure more COVID-19 funding when Congress returns from recess next week.

Negotiators were able to reach an agreement on a $10 billion package but then Congress left Washington for the Easter break without passing that bill. The official says congressional inaction is already taking a toll, as uninsured Americans are now forced to foot the bill for items like COVID tests, treatments and vaccines.

One new finding suggests COVID-19 infections provide unvaccinated people with about as much immunity against reinfection as people injected with mRNA vaccine, according to a study by Providence Health Care. But not all research is the same. CNN's Dr. Sanjay Gupta visited Emory University to see what its researchers have discovered.

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(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In this lab at Emory University, scientists like Mehur Suthar are working to answer one of the most common questions of the pandemic. How much protection does a previous COVID infection provide?

DR. MEHUL SUTHAR, VIRAL IMMUNOLOGIST, EMORY UNIVERSITY: Where as a vaccine response, you may have all individuals that got the vaccine have high antibodies that sort of wane over time. With infections, you'll have lots of individuals that have very low and individuals that have very high antibody responses.

GUPTA (voice-over): Take a look at this graph of people who have immunity from a prior infection. See how varied the blue dots and lines are?

They represent the antibody response. It's all over the place.

It is proof, Suthar says, that not all infections are the same. But with vaccines, a much more predictable, consistent antibody response. But how do you use this data to make decisions in the real world?

Especially now that states have loosened measures like masks and vaccine mandates?

GUPTA: If I were to get my antibodies checked, could I then get some sort of measure of just how protected I am?

SUTHAR: There aren't good correlates of protection. Something that says that this is the measurement that one needs to know how well they are protected. And now with these variants, we're seeing how the antibody responses sort of take a hit.

GUPTA: Let's say you're in a situation where someone essentially doesn't have antibodies anymore. If you were to measure their antibodies but you don't see them. Does that mean they no longer have protection?

SUTHAR: Not necessarily. So there's several aspects to one's immune system that can drive protection.

GUPTA (voice-over): Like B-cells, which can make more antibodies if the virus comes back, and T-cells, which help activate the immune system and get rid of infected cells, antibodies in your blood naturally wane over time.

Think of it like security lights at your home. When there's an intruder nearby, they should turn on. But when there's no more threat you want them to turn back off.

GUPTA: Why do we focus so much on antibodies?

SUTHAR: One aspect is that antibodies are probably one of the easiest to measure in the laboratory.

DR. DORRY SEGEV, PROFESSOR OF SURGERY, NYU LANGONE HEALTH: The immunity you get from prior COVID infection has become way more politicized than anything I've ever seen in medicine. But it's still a very important medical question.

GUPTA (voice-over): Dr. Dorry Segev is a transplant surgeon who says antibody tests should be used in some cases to understand how protected people are. In February, he published research on hundreds of unvaccinated Americans who had COVID.

SEGEV: Almost every single one of them had detectable antibodies.

GUPTA (voice-over): And the science says if those people then later got vaccinated, they will have even more robust immunity than infection alone. It's something Segev thinks we do need to take into consideration.

SEGEV: COVID is a high-risk, high-consequence way of getting immunity. But if you had COVID and you went through that and you have immunity, that is something we need to respect and we need to incorporate in the ways we draw the sort of the new social contract of COVID.

GUPTA: So there's no doubt that being previously infected can provide significant protection. The issue more is how consistent is it, how predictable is it.

An older person who didn't get that ill from the original infection, they may not generate as many antibodies as a young person who got very ill. That's the sort of issue you can't predict that.

And obviously getting infected comes with the risk of getting sick. Developing long COVID symptoms.

As things stand now, about 95 percent of the country probably has some degree of immunity, that is a combination of being both vaccinated and infected. But again, it's the vaccinated immunity that is going to be far safer.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HOLMES: Dr. Sanjay Gupta there.

There is more to come on CNN. Actor Johnny Depp taking the stand in his defamation lawsuit against his ex-wife. Details on the testimony when we come back.

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HOLMES: A Virginia court heard days of gripping testimony this week in Johnny Depp's $50 million defamation suit against his ex-wife, Amber Heard. The jury heard allegations of threats, violence and drug abuse. CNN's Polo Sandoval with more.

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POLO SANDOVAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Three straight days of testimony this week paint a disturbing picture of the relationship between actors, Johnny Depp and ex-wife, Amber Heard.

Depp has been on the witness stand as part of week two of his defamation trial against Heard.

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SANDOVAL: The "Pirates of the Caribbean" star suing Heard for $50 million in Virginia court over a 2018 "Washington Post" opinion piece. In it, Heard wrote about her experience with domestic abuse.

Though Depp was not named in the piece, the actor claimed it caused him financial losses.

JOHNNY DEPP, ACTOR: I felt the responsibility of clearing the record.

SANDOVAL: This week, Depp told a jury his romance with Heard was seemingly perfect early on. But the relationship became volatile and quickly hit bottom after they married.

Depp denied various allegation from Heard that he physically harmed her in 2015.

DEPP: There were arguments and things of that nature that never did I, myself, reach the point of striking Ms. Heard in any way, nor have I ever struck any woman in my life.

SANDOVAL: He also testified that he was the one subjected to mental and physical abuse.

DEPP: It could begin with a slap. It could begin with a shove. It could begin with, you know, throwing a TV remote at my head. It could be throwing a glass of wine in my face.

SANDOVAL: Depp testified that, on one occasion in 2015, Heard threw a vodka bottle at him, severing his fingertip, which she has denied. And that during a separate incident, she put out a cigarette on his face.

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SANDOVAL: On Thursday, though, Heard's attorney attempted to cast a different light on the Oscar-nominated actor using his history of substance abuse.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you would sometimes drink whiskey in the morning, right, during this time period.

DEPP: I -- I mean, you know what I mean, isn't happy hour anytime?

(LAUGHTER)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One of your good friends that you have taken drugs with before is Marilyn Manson, right? DEPP: We have had cocaine together maybe a couple of times.

SANDOVAL: Testimony turned even more crude when the defense used Depp's text messages to a friend to show rage toward Heard.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: After you said, "Let's drown her before we burn her," Mr. Depp, you said, "I will (INAUDIBLE) her burnt corpse afterwards to make sure she is dead."

SANDOVAL: And this video, showing an irate Depp, was played in court Thursday by the defense

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DEPP: Here's your crazy. All your crazy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANDOVAL: Depp responded saying he did not assault her during the recorded tirade.

SARA AZARI, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: There's evidence on both sides that they have also perpetrated domestic violence.

So at the end of the day, this jury is going to be tasked with deciding, is this a relationship of mutual combat?

And how does this impact the statement that she is a victim of domestic violence?

It sounds like we have two perpetrators.

SANDOVAL: The jury heads back to court on Monday to hear more testify. Heard has yet to take the stand in her own defense -- Polo Sandoval, CNN, New York.

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HOLMES: Now a couple of Florida neighborhoods got visits from two massive alligators recently and, this being the time of video, they were caught on video.

Have a look at this guy strolling along a Venice street last weekend. Officials estimate this alligator was at least three meters long or around 10 feet or so. Lock up your pets.

And have a look at this one stopping traffic in Venice a couple of days later. Florida wildlife officials say one possible reason these alligators might be out and about, mating season begins soon. Don't get in the way of that.

Thanks for spending part of your day with me. I'm Michael Holmes. Please stick around. Our breaking news coverage continues in a moment with Isa Soares and Kim Brunhuber.

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