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Interview with Alona Shkrum, Ukrainian Parliament Member: Intense Shelling Raises Fears Kharkiv Could be Next Mariupol; McCarthy Leads GOP Delegation To Mexico Border Amid Controversy; WSJ: U.S. Holds Off On Sanctioning Putin's Rumored Girlfriend. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired April 25, 2022 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:30:00]

ALONA SHKRUM, UKRAINIAN PARLIAMENT MEMBER: I think the type is compared and they're going Odessa right now, so I cannot really talk to you long enough because I would have to be on the call with people in Odessa. But yes, we do have to start the rebuilding process already.

We do have to start understanding what kind of industries and what kind of corporations do we need, what kind of temporary housing, what kind of you know, cooperative forces we can do between Great Britain, United States and Europe because we -- you mentioned understood already that Ukrainians are a very (INAUDIBLE) nation, a very proud one, and we don't want to be beggars.

And we don't want to receive the money in terms of credit just to receive the money. We really want it to be business projects, investments, and we need it to be in the areas where most of our mutual cooperation will be successful, with the U.S., with Brussels, with EU, with Great Britain, with any other countries that are our allies, and will be willing to invest in Ukraine.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: Yes, I certainly understand that, and I thank you for that update on Odessa, that part of Russia moved toward the west. Let me ask you about the trying to build support to join the European Union. The Austrian foreign minister seems to be a bit resistant to that idea saying that full membership is not necessary for western Europe to include Ukraine, to get closer to Ukraine.

There are other countries that have been waiting for years for potential ascension, what's your reaction and response to that seeming resistance to joining?

SHKRUM: Look, I will try not to be emotional, but it's quite difficult to tell you honestly. Obviously, a full membership is not necessary for the European Union if European Union doesn't want to be an international player and doesn't want to be safe for the next 20 or 30 years.

So, we've had stories like that for a long time with NATO and with the European Union. I think that right now, yes, we do need European Union, and we do need the support, and we do need the financial agreement, and the single markets agreement, and support of our economy.

But I think the European Union needs us as well. I mean, Ukrainians have shown that we are here right now, defending, actually, the values of democracy, the values of free choice of people were to live, how to live their own life, an how to be governed.

It is a clear choice between the Russia, Mr. Putin, he can do anything with international law and with international security system, and we are actually on the border line of this choice.

If Ukraine is lost as the European Union, there is no European Union without Ukraine. I'm sorry, but this is the reality, and I think that, you know a lot of countries understand that -- Poland understands that. Finland understands that.

A lot of other countries which are not members of NATO, like Finland and Sweden are right now going to be members of NATO and asking for it because they want to be protected from a crazy dictator in a bunker who has no legitimacy whatsoever in what he's doing right now. And actually, Ukraine desperately needs Europe, but Europe also desperately needs Ukraine.

And I hope that countries like Germany and Austria start to understand it, and if they don't understand it as political leaders, the population of those countries I know is much more supportive and is much more understandable of the challenges that Europe face. So, I'm a little bit sick of this bullshit of telling us that, you know, we can do anything as a candidate or maybe we don't even need to be a candidate.

Well, look, Ukrainians are dying right now for this choice of freedom and democracy, and if we are not successful -- I think we will be. But if we are not, if Ukraine is lost, and Putin will go further and then the whole European order, and European, you know, nice lives in Austrian and in German cities will be completely lost. They haven't seen the war for a long time. I pray they will not see the war that we are facing but they will if the Ukraine fails.

BLACKWELL: Alona Shkrum, listen, I certainly understand the passion that you have. I thank you for spending a few minutes with me. I know you've got a busy day. Ukrainian member of Parliament Alona Shkrum, thanks.

SHKRUM: Thank you so much.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: Well, back here Republican leader Kevin McCarthy is heading up a Congressional delegation to the southern border as lawmakers sound off about the leaked audio recording that caught McCarthy in a lie. He was just asked about it. We'll tell you what he's saying down there.

[15:35:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLACKWELL: Right now, House Republican leader Kevin McCarthy is leading a group of GOP lawmakers on a visit on the U.S. Mexico border. Now McCarthy is using the trip to highlight a surge of migrants at the southern border and to raise concerns over a Biden administration decision to end the pandemic restrictions as Title 42. Which allowed border authorities to send migrants back to their home countries.

CAMEROTA: The trip also comes as leaked audio recordings revealed that Kevin McCarthy said he intended to tell then President Trump to resign over the Capitol insurrection. Just moments ago, McCarthy was asked about that recording. Here's what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): Well first of all, let me answer your question since you don't want to talk about the border. The reporter never asked me that question. The reporter came to me the night before he released the book, and my understanding was he was saying that I asked President Trump to resign. No, I never did, and that's what I was answering.

[15:40:00]

If you're asking now, did I tell my members that were going to ask, ask them if I told any of them that I said President Trump -- the answer is no. So, I'm glad you asked that question. But what's more important than something that happened fifteen months ago on a private conversation with about four other people is what's happening here right now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: With us now to talk about this and so much more, we have Bill Kristol. He's the editor-at-large for "The Bulwark" and director of Defending Democracy Together. Bill, you heard Kevin McCarthy, he pivoted away from that. Do you think the revelations of one of his ideas of getting President Trump to resign because the insurrection was so bad, do you think that costs Kevin McCarthy ultimately in any way?

BILL KRISTOL, EDITOR-AT-LARGE, THE BULWARK: I think I'm struck whenever a politician says I'm glad you asked that question. You're not glad you asked that question. Right. And of course, he just semi- lied, and semi constructed a very complicated explanation to say that he I think to cover over the obvious truth.

You know, I'm so struck by the interview you just had in the last segment with the Ukrainian politician who is fighting for her country under threat and under danger, doing her best to rally support around the world and that's a serious political figure trying to do what you should be doing.

And here we have in the U.S. political leaders --unfortunately a majority I would say of the elected officials and candidates in one of our two major parties -- behaving in ways that are just so low, and sort of petty and dishonest compared to these Ukrainian elected officials. 20 or 30 years ago, I would have said, well gee, that's a country coming out of the Soviet Union, and they don't really have a democratic political culture yet. Now they put us to shame.

BLACKWELL: Bill, let me ask you about the timing of this trip to the border when the narrative from leader McCarthy is Trump and I are good. We talked it over. He understands everything works out. This of course, immigration, one of former President Trump's top issues, if he's trying to get back into his good graces and bring along those Trump allies in the conference, is this the reason that this is happening today?

KRISTOL: Well, I think the main reason might be the death of National Guard, the army troop and they're taking advantage of that, frankly. And again, that's again what they've provoked. Listening to your excellent interview with the Ukrainian legislator, seriously in a foreign capital, trying to do her best, talking to people back in Odessa which is being shelled. And we have all these Republicans traipsing down to the board take advantage of an unfortunate death, in a difficult situation there. Difficult for both parties, obviously, with no constructive proposals, of course.

He's in the state of Texas, I believe, which is the governor of Texas is sending buses of immigrants up here. Now luckily to D.C., actually, and luckily Catholic Charities is welcoming them and helping them. They're going to do fine. They're going to contribute to the economy up here.

I'm glad to have them up here in northern Virginia or in this area, and I think I speak for most people up here, but the demagoguery on immigration is a peace with the lying about the election.

CAMEROTA: We have Melanie Zanona right now. Who has just left that press conference with Kevin McCarthy. So, Melanie, what was the point he's trying to drive home?

MELANIE ZANONA, CNN CAPITOL HILL REPORTER: Yes, well, House minority leader Kevin McCarthy is here at the border today. He was leading a Congressional delegation. They toured the border, and they also heard a briefing from border patrol agents and really, they were trying to call attention to President Biden's decision to lift a Trump era immigration policy known as Title 42.

They were warning that if that policy is lifted, it is going to lead to an influx of migrants at the border. They also called on Democrats to sign on to a bill that Republicans have that would make that policy permanent.

But of course, lingering over all of this is a controversy surrounding McCarthy. He was caught on tape last week by "The New York Times" bashing Trump privately in the days after January 6th. He initially denied that reporting vehemently, and said it was not true. Of course, then the tapes came out.

I asked him why was he not truthful. He continues to say that he didn't ask Trump directly to resign, which is of course not what "The Times" reported. He said that was not the question that was given to him by "The New York Times," but it's worth noting here that he put out a lengthy statement after "The Times" story was published saying that was totally false and wrong.

And so, he was on the defensive here. He questioned, you know, why we're not covering the policies at the border. But we are here today, and we heard from him, as well as many other lawmakers including Tony Gonzalez who represents this district, and they are going to be leaving here today.

BLACKWELL: Melanie, thank you. Bill, quickly, on the content here of why they are there, do you think that Democrats are under estimating the impact, the political impact of ending Title 42 in a couple of weeks?

[15:45:00]

KRISTOL: I mean, maybe. And they may decide to extend it. It's a public health exception, so on the merits, I think there's a good case if the CDC says it's not the case anymore, that we shouldn't not let people in because of COVID. You know, it's hard to -- it's not really right to continue this public health exception as I understand it.

But look, the border is a tough issue for Democrats. Immigration has been a tough issue. But I don't know, the screamed and yelled about the caravans in 2018, and Democrats did fine. I think Democrats need to fight back. Say we want sound immigration policies. We need more immigrants here.

We have a labor shortage. It'll help with inflation. But we obviously want to be serious about helping legal immigrants and discouraging illegal ones. But Democrats need to get off the defense of a little bit more on the whole set of issues, I think.

But again, I come back to the Republicans, demagoguery to go down to the border today, and Kevin McCarthy not telling the truth in this small matter of what he told "The New York Times" when. And the big matter, he's part of the big lie. I mean, let's not forget the big lie as we focus on the little lies.

BLACKWELL: Bill Kristol, thank you, sir.

CAMEROTA: All right, so the U.S. is holding back on sanctioning one very close associate of Vladimir Putin, his reported girlfriend. We'll explain why, next.

[15:50:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: The Biden administration has unleashed new sanctions not only against Vladimir Putin but practically anyone associated with him except for one person, his reported girlfriend. "The Wall Street journal" reports Alina Kabaeva -- Putin's rumored significant other and mother to three of his children, has so far escaped U.S. sanctions because of the potential backlash. Nic Robertson, CNN's international diplomatic editor. He joins us now. How sensitive is this issue -- Nic? NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yes, it will

probably be one of the most sensitive issues for President Putin. I mean, the whole relationship is kept super-secret. Newspapers have been shuttered over it. Peskov -- Dmitri Peskov, Putin's spokesman, has said in the past when there was discussion about putting sanctions on Putin that this would poison the relationship with the United States, that this, you know, was not something that should be done. You don't put sanctions on leaders.

So, this would seem to be one of those things that I guess from a diplomatic perspective that you can leave on the table. The other person knows that this has been left on the table and that this could be taken away from you in the future. But also, the reality of -- the reality of doing it really could trigger an unfavorable reaction from Putin.

And look, he's already doubling down in some ways on what he's doing in Ukraine. And to have him further lash out in an irrational way would be a gamble, you know, with a decision like this. But who knows -- what's certainly clear is since she got close to Putin, her family have become incredibly wealthy. They've great houses. She lives a life of luxury and is kept completely out of the public eye.

COOPER: There are also thousands of luxury cars that were destined for Russia that have been seized and impounded in Belgium. What's going to happen to them?

ROBERTSON: Yes, the government at the moment is looking at what can be done with all this -- all these assets that are being seized. We went to a car lot down in one of the big ports here. It's got 8,000 luxury vehicles that were destined for Russia. Valued close to half a billion dollars. 200 of them were Cadillac Escalades alone, top end ones, alone worth close to $15 million.

And if all of these assets that are being seized -- and right now, the Belgians figure that they've seized billions of dollars' worth of assets. They've got container -- shipping containers full of handbags. If they can turn that to cash, that helps Ukraine. But it's a legal step, a big legal step to achieve that.

COOPER: All right, Nic Robertson, appreciate it. Victor and Alisyn back to you.

BLACKWELL: All right, Anderson, thank you.

Well, saving lives on the front lines of war. Ahead, CNN's Clarissa Ward rides along with two paramedics who do just that in the city of Kharkiv.

[15:55:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLACKWELL: The Tampa Bay Lightning got their White House celebration today after COVID delays. CAMEROTA: The team won hockey's Stanley Cup in 2020 and again in 2021.

President Biden welcomed the players last hour on the White House south lawn and the Lightning presented President Biden with a custom jersey with his name and the number 46.

BLACKWELL: All right.

CAMEROTA: Cute. OK, listen to this, the White House is suffering a critical and crystal shortage --

BLACKWELL: Oh, no.

CAMEROTA: -- for state dinners. This is not a new problem, but it's a big problem. It dates back to the George W. Bush administration.

BLACKWELL: So, the job of resupplying White House crystal falls on first ladies. Three people with knowledge of glassware discussions and the Trump White House say the former first lady Melania Trump declined to take on the job and then passed it on to first lady Jill Biden.

CAMEROTA: They need like 150 new glasses and stemware for state dinners. But you have pointed out, why is this the first lady's job?

BLACKWELL: I think it should thought be the first lady's job to find the glasses for the whole operation.

CAMEROTA: That does sound like a drag. Why are they turning her into father knows best domesticated goddess.

[16:00:00]

BLACKWELL: What I love though is that someone who works at the White House said that it's like going to the Met Gala in a rent the runway gown because they have to rent glasses for these events.

CAMEROTA: I'm actually wearing one right now.

BLACKWELL: Well, we're not at the Met Gala, you're sitting next to me and it works. It works.

CAMEROTA: But I mean, I think you're right. This is old school. It's antiquated. Let the president pick out the glassware. How about that?

BLACKWELL: Red cups for everybody?

CAMEROTA: There you go.

"THE LEAD" with Jake Tapper starts right now.