Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Intense, Constant Shelling by Russia, In East, South Ukraine; U.N Secretary-General Says, I Came to Moscow As a Messenger of Peace; Meadow's Texts Reveal Trump Inner Circle's Communication Around Jan. 6. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired April 26, 2022 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:00:00]

BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, everyone. I'm Bianna Golodryga in New York.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Jim Sciutto reporting from Lviv, in Western Ukraine.

A very busy morning here. Any moment now the U.N. secretary-general will sit down with Russian President Vladimir Putin in Moscow, while right now in Germany, U.S. Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin is meeting with his NATO counterparts. He says that Russia's atrocities in Ukraine are, quote, indefensible, but he believes that Ukraine can win this war.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LLOYD AUSTIN, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Ukraine clearly believes that it can win and so does everyone here.

We have much more to do. Ukraine needs our help to win today, and they will still need our help when the war is over.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GOLODRYGA: This morning, Ukraine says Russian troops have intensified their assault in the south and in the east. Officials say a bridge near the city of Odessa is damaged following a missile strike.

And, overnight, one person is dead after a guided missile rocked Zaporizhzhia. That's the same city that was a destination for people trying to escape Mariupol. The mayor there says that a third mass grave has been found. He claims Russian forces made civilians perform mass burials in exchange for food. Just think about that.

We begin this hour with CNN International Diplomatic Editor Nic Robertson. He is in Brussels, Belgium. Nic, any moment now, U.N. Secretary-General Antonio Guterres will be meeting with Vladimir Putin in Moscow. Interesting because President Zelenskyy was a bit frustrated at that, saying that Guterres should come to Ukraine first but, of course, he will be coming after his meeting with Vladimir Putin. What do you expect to see from this meeting between the two?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yes, Zelenskyy really wanted Guterres to go to Ukraine first, as we saw with the Austrian chancellor, as we saw with the European Union council president to get their own eyes on the war crimes and atrocities that have been committed there. So, when they communicate with President Putin, this is what Zelenskyy wanted Guterres to do, he could take that information with him and present it directly, as he has already seen it. Obviously, Guterres not doing that.

I think the mood music today on the meeting between the U.N. secretary-general and President Putin has been set by the Russian foreign minister, Sergey Lavrov, who is sort of casting the situation at the moment as Ukraine causing the problems. A hard situation, he described it as almost as if say that not of Russia's making.

And he also doubled down on Ukraine for not wanting to get into peace negotiations, blaming those who want to see Russia defeated, and as he said, stuffing Ukraine more and more full of weapons, a direct criticism there, it seems, from the Russian foreign minister of the United States.

So, I think the bar for expectations of what Guterres can take away with -- from President Putin should be quite low. Expectations should be low. Guterres himself saying come on a mission of peace but recognizing there are differences of opinion. This is how he framed it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTONIO GUTERRES, UNITED NATIONS SECRETARY GENERAL: I came to Moscow as a messenger of peace. My objective and my agenda is strictly linked to save lives and to reduce suffering. I had a very frank discussion with the foreign minister, Sergey Lavrov, and it is clear that there are two different positions on what is happening in Ukraine.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERTSON: And the secretary general put a huge focus on trying to get humanitarian relief for those people trapped inside of Mariupol, offering U.N. International Red Cross to work with Ukraine and Russia to create a humanitarian corridor, to save those lives there. It doesn't appear as if Russia is moving in that direction at all, a strategic objective for them to completely crush everything in Mariupol.

[10:05:04] SCIUTTO: Yes, something of a remarkable framing there to say two different opinions when, of course, it is Russia that invaded Ukraine in the first place. Nic Robertson in Brussels, thanks so much.

Overnight, an adviser to Volodymyr Zelenskyy says Russian troops have intensified their assault in the south and the east of this country. Right now, Ukrainian officials say that Russian forces are in full control, politically, militarily, in the city of Kherson and now planning a sham vote on independence. It's been a playbook they've followed before in this country and others.

CNN International Correspondent Scott McLean is here with me in Lviv. Scott, Ukraine says that, so far, Ukrainian forces have been able to resist Russia's offensive in the east. What are we seeing there?

SCOTT MCLEAN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Jim. Yes, as you mentioned, this presidential adviser in Ukraine says that these attacks are coming fast and furious, especially in the east and south. One example, the town of Kramatorsk, that's where we saw the train station hit by Russian bombs just a few weeks ago. There are thousands of Russian troops that are trying to move in on that city. As you mentioned, though, the Ukrainians say that they are able to resist especially in some of those places in the east.

In the southern part of the country, the Russians are trying to attack once again this extremely significant, strategically significant city of Mykolaiv again to try to take that. And in Kherson, which you've mentioned, they've occupied for some time, they are now launching attacks toward the north, toward Kryvyi Rih, and even inside the city, they have now taken full control of the city council as well, according to the mayor.

Perhaps, though, the most significant development in the last 24 hours is the Russian strike on this bridge just south of Odessa, which separates the city from the southern part of Ukraine. It crosses Dnister River. And the reason that that's so significant is because it essentially cuts off this southwestern portion of Ukraine from the rest of the country. In order to get there by road or rail, you have to actually go through Moldova.

Moldova is also the country that contains Transnistria, this sort of separatist statelet with a large Russian-speaking population, where, in the last 24 hours, there have been two separate attacks, first an explosion on the Ministry of State Security yesterday, and then today, two radio towers were hit as well.

Last week a Russian military commander said that it is Russia's goal to take the southern portion of Ukraine all the way to Transnistria so that it could link up with that Russian-speaking statelet. The Moldovans, they have gathered their security chiefs together to meet in response to this. The Ukrainians, meanwhile, they are blaming the Russians for a false flag attack that they say this is in order to gin up anti-Ukrainian sentiment in that area, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Yes, it's also right out of the Russian playbook. Scott McLean, thanks so much. Well, as Russian forces attempt to go on the offensive, both the south and east of this country, Russian's foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, claimed on Russian state television that the Kremlin is striving to lower the risk of nuclear war while warning the west not to underestimate the threat. Listen to his words closely.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was sure that nothing like this could ever happen again, but what has happened in Ukraine has brought these painful memories back very vividly. It's unbelievable that time hasn't changed anything at all. Evil has become even worse. With my whole soul, I feel for Ukrainians who are taken violently, against their will from their homes to the unknown.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: That, of course, was not the Russian foreign minister. What the Russian foreign minister he did say was that he does not want to artificially inflate the nuclear threat but he did say the nuclear threat is serious and real.

Joining me now to discuss, Prime Minister of Estonia Kaja Kallas. Prime Minister, thanks so much for joining the program again.

KAJA KALLAS, ESTONIAN PRIME MINISTER: Thank you for having me.

SCIUTTO: So, a bit of a handicap to you because you didn't hear Lavrov's comments once again, but I'm sure you're familiar with him and I can quote him. He did say, he doesn't want to artificially inflate the threat but that it is serious. And, of course, you've heard on Russian state television open discussions of the possibility of nuclear war. And I wonder, when you hear those comments, do you believe those -- it's empty rhetoric or that Russia is trying to rattle NATO by raising the prospect of a nuclear strike?

KALLAS: What Russia is really good at is playing on our fears. So, listening very carefully, what are the fears in societies of different countries and pushing those buttons exactly. So, they have been talking about the nuclear threat for some time already because they know that this is something that creates a lot of fear.

[10:10:00]

SCIUTTO: You have written, and you've written extensively on the threat. And, of course, Estonia, for folks back in the U.S. who may not be aware, sits right on Russia's border. You've written, we need a long-term policy change towards Russia. The free world should follow the model when the facts change, I change my mind.

In your view, is this a new cold war? And if so, does NATO, does the U.S. and the west, have to return to a containment policy for Russia?

KALLAS: Well, first of all, it's very hot war going on in Ukraine right now. It's nothing cold there. And we have to do everything to help Ukraine to win this war because, otherwise, the atrocities will just continue. Even if there's some kind of peace treaty, it's not made voluntarily, and there will be a pause of one year, two years, and then everything will continue, because if the aggressor is not punished, the aggression pays off, clearly. You get some territories and/or in addition you get something more.

But what I'm also talking about is the smart containment policy vis-a- vis Russia, which means that we can't go back to business as usual. There are war crimes committed in Ukraine. This is clear aggression, what Russia is doing in Ukraine, and we can't overlook this and go back even if there is some kind of peace treaty signed. So, we need to isolate Russia politically in all the international fora that deal with international law.

SCIUTTO: You said to me before, and you've said publicly, that if the west does not stand up to Russia in Ukraine, that other countries, including perhaps your own, could be next. General Milley, who I'm going to interview a short time from now, has said he supports permanent NATO bases in the Baltics, including Estonia, but not necessarily a permanent NATO deployment there, but perhaps a permanent base with some rotational deployments. Is that sufficient, in your view, to deter Russia going forward?

KALLAS: Well, first of all, let me correct. I have always said that we are not the next ones because we are under the NATO umbrella and that makes us much different. What we see right now and from the previous talk that you had, what is under threat right now is what is happening with Moldova, and Russia hasn't been really very secretive about their plans.

But what comes to NATO and strengthening NATO, then, yes, we need more, you know, troops presence here and, of course, the way NATO decides to do it, whether it's division-sized troops, collective defense together with the NATO defense forces and our own defense forces, whether it's rotational. But what is important is that it's not the forward presence but the forward defense posture. What it means is that those troops are immediately able to push back if, you know, the aggressor would have such thoughts. So, Russia has raised the level of aggression and the level of defense should go also to reflect that.

SCIUTTO: Estonia has led the way in many ways, both in terms of military aid to Ukraine but also in terms of pledging to get off its dependence on Russian natural resources, specifically natural gas. The foreign minister says that Estonia will attempt to be off it entirely by the end of this year.

You've heard other European leaders say they want to cut natural gas imports by about two-thirds by the end of the year, significantly but not completely. I just wonder, do you believe these commitments? Do you believe your European allies will hold themselves to that standard and deliver?

KALLAS: Well, of course, it is very different for different European countries because different European countries have different dependencies on Russian gas and oil. It is easier for those countries who don't have such a dependency to make those decisions. But what I see around the European table is a clear will to stop financing the war machine of Russia. Of course, you know, there is, for all the leaders, is the right balance to strike, the price that your own people are going to pay for this and the suffering of Ukrainians on the other side. So, of course, these are very difficult decisions, but I see the clear will that we don't want to finance Russia's war.

[10:15:03]

SCIUTTO: A point we've heard many times and to the tune of many billions of dollars. Prime Minister Kaja Kallas, we do appreciate having you back on the program. Thanks so much.

KALLAS: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Still to come this hour, a CNN exclusive. I speak with General Mark Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, as the U.S. weighs its next steps, NATO's next steps as well, to help Ukraine fight off Russia's invasion and end this unprovoked war. That's later this hour.

GOLODRYGA: Yes, an important conversation you don't want to miss.

Also another CNN exclusive, more than 2,000 text messages show in great detail how Trump's inner circle reacted to January 6th. How they quickly tried to rewrite the story. You'll see it for yourself, up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:20:00]

GOLODRYGA: CNN has exclusively obtained more than 2,000 text messages that former White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows sent and received before and after Election Day 2020, the vast collection that Meadows gave to the January 6th committee.

Well, one of those texts showed Trump Campaign Spokesman Jason Miller crafting a counter-narrative shortly after the Capitol was breached, trying to deflect blame from the former president and his supporters. He texted Meadows and Trump Aide Dan Scavino, quote, call me crazy, but ideas for two tweets from POTUS, bad apples, likely Antifa or other crazed leftists infiltrated today's peaceful protest over the fraudulent vote count. Number two, the fake news media who encouraged this summer's violent and radical riots are now trying to blame peaceful and innocent MAGA supporters for violent actions. This isn't who we are. Our people should head home.

Well, here with me now is CNN Political Commentator S.E. Cupp. S.E., always great to see you.

So, what's fascinating about these text messages is that you see where that idea of this being Antifa, this being, you know, far-left activists trying to pretend that they're MAGA supporters came from because we can recall just a little over a year ago on that day, when that narrative really played out on television and among some of the president's supporters. This just came via text messages. What do you make of that?

S.E. CUPP, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: It's really striking how quickly so many people scrambled to find alternative bad actors. It was Antifa, it was leftists, it was also, at one point, the FBI and the deep state. I think that that gets to the fact that a lot of these folks, from Jason Miller to Laura Ingraham, to Marjorie Taylor Greene knew how bad this was and knew they needed to blame other people.

And that makes it so much worse that in the days and weeks and months after, they were justifying the lies that led to the insurrection. They were justifying the reasons behind it. You know, that just goes to show how inauthentic they actually are.

GOLODRYGA: Yes, but also that it came up as an idea. There wasn't a shred of evidence, not that we subsequently found out that there were Antifa activists involved or anything, but to hear this just came out from somebody's idea, somebody's thought process, in a text, sent to the chief of staff and, clearly, you saw that put into action. I know that you also --

CUPP: Well, it's so true (ph).

GOLODRYGA: What?

CUPP: Sorry. Go ahead.

GOLODRYGA: No, go ahead, finish.

CUPP: Well, I mean, also what came out is just like an idea, a suggestion that a number of people went to very quickly was, well, why don't we just overturn the election, a democratic election? I mean, we saw lots of people just casually suggesting that as if that isn't something that has never been done, as if that isn't something that isn't grotesquely un-American and undemocratic and, by the way, not conservative. That just came out of a lot of people's mouths, and I think that speaks to just how thoroughly Trumpism has scrambled the brains of Republicans and created this like malignant group think.

GOLODRYGA: Yes. Also, is it normal for so many people to have access like that, the phone number for the president's chief of staff?

CUPP: Bianna, this was like my first thought. My first thought was, how do all these people have a direct backchannel to the president of the United States, his chief of staff, everyone from family members to cable news hosts, to the MyPillow guy, rally organizers, I mean, fired and former staffers. This was a lot of people who not only had access but thought they had influence over the president in the days after the election and around the insurrection.

That is shocking. And at best, to me, that feels wildly inefficient, and at worst, like a security risk.

GOLODRYGA: Yes. And mind you, these aren't all the text messages. This is just over 2,000, but we know that there were many more. S.E. Cupp, thank you, great to see you.

Well, coming up, fenced in apartments and shipping container roadblocks, strict COVID restrictions sparking widespread outrage in Shanghai. The response, a digital uprising unfolding in real-time. We'll have that story out of China up ahead.

[10:25:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GOLODRYGA: In a desperate effort to keep COVID from spreading, China is now imposing widespread, increasingly strict lockdowns and restrictions. Just yesterday, Beijing rolled out mass testing for nearly 20 million residents in most of the city. But for weeks now, most of Shanghai has been under lockdown. And as the city of 25 million shuts down, a digital uprising is happening online.

[10:30:02]

CNN's David Culver has the story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)