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Russia's Nuclear Threats; Kamala Harris Tests Positive For COVID; Interview With Former U.S. Special Representative For Ukraine Kurt Volker; U.N. Secretary-General Meets With Putin. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired April 26, 2022 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:01]

JOHN KING, CNN HOST: I just want to see that entire -- look at that.

(LAUGHTER)

KING: Donie has his own castle, a lake and a castle.

DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN BUSINESS POLITICS AND TECHNOLOGY REPORTER: This is my castle, John. So...

KING: Donie O'Sullivan, grateful.

(CROSSTALK)

O'SULLIVAN: You can come by any time.

KING: I'm on my way. Good to see you, my friend.

Thanks for joining INSIDE POLITICS today. We will see you back here this time tomorrow.

Ana Cabrera picks up our coverage right now.

ANA CABRERA, CNN HOST: Hello. I'm Ana Cabrera in New York. Thanks for being with us.

No time to waste. Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin says the U.S. and its allies need to get critical aid to Ukraine, and fast, because Russia's attacks are intense and they are constant. Today, Secretary Austin met with dozens of global military leaders in Germany to discuss ramping up support for Ukraine, a show of strength and a united message to Putin: Russia will be weakened.

At the same time, the Russian president sat down for talks with the U.N. secretary-general in Moscow, two very different tactics to try to end this war, as the U.N. investigates 300 unlawful killings allegedly carried out by Putin's forces. So far, the mission has documented up to 5,000 casualties, according to a monitoring group.

That's how many we know of. In reality, the number is actually thousands higher. In Mariupol, the mayor says a third mass grave site has been found more than 200 meters' long. Think about that. That's longer than two football fields -- and where still, the mayor claims, the survivors are being forced to bury their deceased neighbors and loved ones in exchange for food.

Let's get you now to CNN's Nic Robertson in Brussels and Oren Liebermann at Ramstein Air Base in Germany.

Oren, let's start with you first.

Today, Secretary Austin doubled down on this idea of weakening Russia. What did we hear from him exactly?

OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin certainly raised eyebrows when he made that comment just a couple of days ago when he was in Poland over the weekend.

But he's not shying away from it, this stronger rhetoric, openly talking about a victory for Ukraine and weakening Russia. But he has tried to clarify it and say exactly what he meant. In no way, he says, did he imply that U.S. forces would engage against Russian forces. Instead, it's this idea that Ukraine's military has weakened Russia, first through attrition, a war lasting much longer than Russia expected, and, second, simply through the successes Ukraine has had on the battlefield, except Russia.

And then it's the sanctions kicking in that simply make it economically harder for Russia to carry out these sorts of wars against its neighbors. Here's what he had to say:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LLOYD AUSTIN, U.S. SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: If you look at what's transpired here in this 62 days or so that Ukraine and Russia have been involved in this struggle here, Russia has -- in terms of its land forces, their land forces have been attrited in a very significant way.

Casualties are pretty substantial. They have lost a lot of equipment. They have used a lot of precision-guided munitions. They have lost a major surface combatant. And so they are, in fact, in terms of military capability, weaker than when it started.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LIEBERMANN: The meeting that Austin hosted here with more than 40 other countries to figure out how best to keep getting weapons into Ukraine, Austin says this will become a monthly meeting.

Ana, that gives you a sense of how long the U.S. sees this conflict lasting, not days or weeks, but months.

CABRERA: Secretary Austin did talk about what he thinks it would take to end this war. Basically, Oren, the ball is in Putin's court.

LIEBERMANN: That's right.

It has been the U.S.' position that Russian President Vladimir Putin could simply end this any time he wants by simply removing his forces from Ukraine. Now, there's no indication that he's going to do that. In statements from both him and Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov, the appearance is that some negotiated solution with Ukraine isn't about to happen.

But the U.S. continues to hold the position that, if Putin wants to end this, he simply can, even if that's not likely to happen. That's why the U.S. and others are preparing for this to go into the long term.

CABRERA: And, Nic, I understand we just got Putin's version of events out of his meeting with the U.N. secretary-general. What is Putin saying?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: No surprise that we got a version of Putin's propaganda, obviously played out to the Russian people on state television.

He criticized the United Nations, the secretary-general sitting right in front of him, criticized the United Nations, saying that the charter says that all countries are equal, but goes on to say essentially, that Russia is being treated unfairly and implies that the United States is behind that.

Indeed, earlier in the day, Sergey Lavrov, the Russian foreign minister, said that the United States fixes the votes at the U.N. by forcing some members to vote the way it wants them to by threatening to cut off bank accounts, by threatening to stop their children going to school, unfounded allegations.

[13:05:05]

So Putin was on a roll with his propaganda here about the -- Russia is being treated unfairly by the United Nations and by the rest of the world. Then he goes on to justify the war in Ukraine, again, glossing over, not even mentioning the fact that Russia invaded Ukraine in the first place back in 2014, saying that they had to go in, that there was a coup d'etat back in 2014 in Kyiv and Russia was forced to go in to defend people there.

But perhaps the real kicker and chilling thing here is -- and this tells us everything we need to know about President Putin -- 62 days into the war, he still does not accept that his forces were committing war crimes. About the war crimes, he said, we're aware of -- aware of these things. These were provocations by the Ukrainians. We know how they happened. This was all Ukraine. It wasn't us.

He is in denial. He is playing to his gallery, which is the Russian people. We don't know what happened behind closed doors. And we're yet to get Secretary -- U.N. Secretary-General Antonio Guterres' version. But this does create that very clear impression.

Putin appears to have learned nothing and is doubling down and going in the direction that he was going in, in Ukraine in the first place, fighting for the best outcome he can get.

CABRERA: And trying to control the narrative about what is really happening.

And so, as we wait for the readout from the secretary-general, something that really stood out to me before his meeting with Putin today was when the secretary-general said -- and I quote -- "We are facing a complex situation in Ukraine, different interpretations about what is happening."

Different interpretations. A lot of people are going to bristle at that phrasing, Nic.

ROBERTSON: They are. It's going to sound to some people like saying everyone has a justified point of view, there are good views on both sides.

What we have heard from the secretary-general so far is never to antagonize Russia. That is a fine line for him to walk. And there will certainly be people that think he has slipped off that fine line. He sticks to that position, because, as we have heard, it is becoming -- being seen as a proxy war between the United States and Russia in Ukraine.

That's the way some people are framing it, some people are framing it right now. Guterres, if you will, his main table of debate is the permanent Security Council members, Russia, China, the United States, the U.K. and France. And two of those members more than are opposed to each other. In fact, it's two and three are violently opposed to each other's positions right now.

And he has to navigate away through that. If he comes off the fence, he would see his position as being harder to get peace in the end. But, absolutely, people are going to criticize him for phrasing things that way.

CABRERA: Nic Robertson and Oren Liebermann, thank you both.

Let's bring in Kurt Volker. He's a former U.S. ambassador to NATO, and was also a special representative for Ukraine negotiations in 2017. He's now a senior adviser to the Atlantic Council.

Ambassador, thanks for being here.

You said last month this war won't end with negotiations. Based on what we just heard from our own Nic Robertson, are you even more sure of that now?

KURT VOLKER, FORMER U.S. SPECIAL REPRESENTATIVE FOR UKRAINE: Yes, I do not see any prospect for negotiations at this time.

Putin is clearly driving towards some kind of military victory that he can claim, ideally on May 9, the Victory Day that they celebrate in Moscow. So they're not really being serious about negotiating anything. And, as Nic Robertson just pointed out, Russia is the aggressor here. Russia is the country that is invading somebody else's country. They are not in a position to complain about being treated unfairly and not in a position to call this a proxy war.

Ukrainians are nobody's proxies. They are a people, and they are defending themselves.

CABRERA: If diplomacy is doomed, then, is there a military or other solution? How does this end?

VOLKER: Well, unfortunately, I think we're going to see continued bloodshed and continued fighting for some time to come.

Putin is going to continue to push his forces to attack in Eastern Ukraine in order to try to take all of the Donbass, near Kharkiv, and then west of Crimea toward Mykolaiv and Odessa and toward Moldova, where there was actually some interesting developments today.

That's what Putin is going to do. I don't believe he has the military capability to win. As we heard Secretary Austin say, they're significantly weakened already. But he's going to push. Meanwhile, the sanctions will continue to take a bite out of the Russian economy.

And it's that pressure, military failure on the one hand, economic failure on the other, that's ultimately, I think, going want to put enough pressure on the Russian regime that they will have to call an end to the war. That's what we have to hope for. But it's going to take some time to come.

[13:10:07]

CABRERA: And we see the pictures every day of Russia's unprovoked invasion, the atrocities taking place.

And yet Russia still has its seat at the table as an elevated, a permanent member of the United Nations, something Russia's foreign minister emphasized today. How can Russia still be given this kind of power? Is the U.N. broken?

VOLKER: Yes.

Well, unfortunately, I think the U.N. is stuck with the structure that it was given at the end of World War II, when we had these five powers that we thought would be the five key powers in the world. But what we see now is that Russia is an outlier, China a little bit less so. Russia is certainly an outlier. And it is Russia that now causes the breakdown of the U.N. system when it comes to international peace and security.

I don't see any way to fix this at the moment. There is no mechanism for getting rid of a rogue U.N. member. So I think we are going to have to see, basically, the facts on the ground play out in such a way that Russia realizes eventually it is losing and cannot win and is only destroying its own country.

When that happens, then we may see an end to the war. I don't know how we will ever recover the United Nations as long as Vladimir Putin is in power.

CABRERA: Ambassador Kurt Volker, thank you so much for your time. I appreciate you.

This just in. The White House says Vice President Kamala Harris has tested positive for COVID.

And M.J. Lee is live at the White House.

Do we know if the vice president is showing symptoms?

M.J. LEE, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: No, she's feeling just fine, according to the White House, the White House saying that the vice president has no symptoms right now.

She tested positive for COVID this morning .She actually came to the White House. She was supposed to have a presidential daily brief in the morning, as she often does. When she tested positive, she immediately went back to her residence. And we are told by the White House that she's going to continue isolating at her residence and then return to work once she tests negative.

Now, she is not close -- considered a close contact of the president or the first lady, in part because she last all the president on the Easter Egg Roll. That was more than a week ago. And she actually left that afternoon to go to California and she's been on the West Coast ever since. She only actually returned last night.

Of course, she is vaccinated. She has been boosted. So that is important context as well. But, Ana, we have seen increasingly White House officials talking about how it is very possible that President Biden himself could end up getting COVID. So this is sort of the new reality that we're talking about.

But, of course, in recent weeks, we have seen a ton of government officials at the highest levels testing positive for COVID, including now Vice President Kamala Harris, Ana.

CABRERA: Well, it's good to hear that she is feeling well, not showing any symptoms at this point.

M.J. Lee, thank you.

America's top military official is now responding to Russia's new attacks, the nuclear saber-rattling. Up next, let's hear from General Mark Milley about what's at stake in Ukraine and what he makes of Russia's nuclear threats in an exclusive interview with our Jim Sciutto.

Plus, why an aspirin a day for your heart is no longer the recommendation from a key panel of health experts.

And one of the biggest investment banks on the planet ramping up its recession warning, now predicting it will be -- quote -- "major."

Stay with us. You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

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[13:17:48]

CABRERA: Russia's foreign minister says the threat of nuclear war should not be underestimated.

CNN's chief national security correspondent and anchor, Jim Sciutto, just got a response from Sergey Lavrov's comments from General Mark Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

And Jim is joining us from Lviv.

General Milley isn't chalking this up to just rhetoric, Jim.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: There's a dance that Russia has really been playing here.

You even saw that in Lavrov's comments. On the one hand, he said he didn't want to artificially inflate the threat. But he did say very explicitly it's a serious threat. And then, when you listen to Russian state media, I mean, they're talking openly about the prospect of a nuclear strike.

So I asked General Milley, I said, is this just rhetoric, or are you seeing movements among their military forces and weapons that would make you think it's something more? His answer, in effect, was, any discussion is dangerous. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEN. MARK MILLEY, CHAIRMAN, JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: Well, any time a senior leader of a nation-state starts rattling a nuclear saber, then everyone takes it seriously.

And it's completely irresponsible for any senior leader to be talking like that in today's world. We are monitoring -- as a military, we're monitoring it very closely with all of our friends and allies. And we take those things very seriously.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: He says monitoring closely. He did not say that they have observed any changes to date yet, Ana, that would indicate forces being moved into position for such a strike.

CABRERA: Jim, you also asked General Milley about the future state of the world and what might happen if Ukraine doesn't win this war.

What did he say is on the line here?

SCIUTTO: Well, it's interesting.

He did something that President Zelenskyy has been doing for some time, which is to internationalize this conflict, to say that, if Ukraine loses here, if Russia is allowed to take it by force, invade a sovereign country, take it over by force, that that message extends far beyond Ukraine and that you look at, in General Milley's words, the collapse of the international security order really built since World War II.

He was very explicit about that danger. Have a listen. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MILLEY: What's at stake here is much greater than Ukraine.

[13:20:00]

What's at stake is the security of Europe. This is the greatest challenge to the security of Europe since the end of World War II. And, indeed, you could easily make the case that what's at stake is the global international security order that was put in place in 1945.

That international order has lasted 78 years. It's prevented great power war. And underlining that entire concept is the idea that large nations will not conduct military aggression against smaller nations. And that is exactly what's happened here, an unprovoked military aggression by Russia against a smaller nation.

So, if this is left to stand, if there is no answer to this aggression, if Russia gets away with this cost-free, then so goes the so-called international order. And if that happens, then we're heading into an era of seriously increased instability.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: You will notice there, Ana, that while you have heard more confident assessments of Ukraine's chances of winning this war very publicly in recent days and weeks, it's not a settled issue.

And that's why you hear General Milley there saying if, right? If it were to fall, these are the consequences here. So I think there's still urgency about sending aid to keep Ukraine able to defend itself.

CABRERA: Jim Sciutto, thank you for all your reporting and your hard work there.

SCIUTTO: Thank you.

CABRERA: And stay safe to you and your team.

With us now is CNN national security analyst and former Director of National Intelligence James Clapper.

Director Clapper, it's always a pleasure to talk with you.

General Milley, in a sense, echoed some of the comments made by Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin that the U.S. goal in Ukraine is to halt Russia's advance and effectively weaken its military longer term, so that it cannot attack other countries. I'm thinking Putin hears the U.S. wants Russia to be weaker. He hears the U.S. saying Ukraine will win.

Those comments could give Putin fuel for his narrative that the world is against Russia. So what do you think the strategy is behind this shift in tone by the U.S.?

JAMES CLAPPER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, I think it's a good thing, a good shift, Ana.

I -- all they're doing early as saying out loud what -- explicitly what is really the implicit objective of our assisting the Ukrainians. And, in fact, I wish would be even more assertive rhetorically, because I think there's a psychological aspect to this in terms of Ukraine's morale.

And so why not just say out loud what is really the objective? And, in fact, Russia has -- Russia's military, who has performed abysmally here, has been profoundly weakened already by the number of soldiers lost and the number of equipment lost -- and the numbers of equipments lost, so that, to me, this is a -- it's a good thing, it's logical, and I think it helps galvanize broader support for Ukraine.

CABRERA: So you say the U.S. could go even further rhetorically.

What more could they be saying?

CLAPPER: Well, I think that, as our provision of security assistance has shifted from Javelins and Stingers to more offensive weapons, counterbattery weapons to get back at the artillery fire, rocket fire, that sort of thing that the Russians are expending against the Ukrainians, and I think we should just be very clear and assertive and authoritative about the objective here is to defeat, not just help Ukraine defend itself, but to defeat the Russians and expel them from Ukraine.

CABRERA: Russia has already launched war against a European nation, is committing alleged war crimes, has previously poisoned perceived enemies on foreign soil, interfered with the U.S. election.

I could go on and on. And yet the U.S. and allies have taken or withheld actions in recent weeks to prevent escalating the situation, we're told, or to prevent provoking Putin further.

I wonder, at this point, what's their concern exactly? What could be more horrific than what Russia is already doing unprovoked?

CLAPPER: Well, it's hard to imagine.

The previous segment spoke to the threats that Russia has either implied or stated outright about the potential use of nuclear weapons. Now, that is a real Rubicon to be crossed if they do that. And they will forever solidify their status as a pariah state on this planet.

[13:25:04]

And the behavior has been absolutely egregious. And we have seen very graphically the magnitude of the atrocities that Russia has committed and continues to commit.

CABRERA: But do you think Russia would really go there, would go with nukes over Ukraine?

CLAPPER: Well, I think, first of all, the important distinction to make here is, I don't think the intercontinental ballistic missile attacks either from missiles or submarines is in the cards.

I do think it is possible that some form of weapons of mass destruction, probably first and foremost chemical weapons. But the Russians have a lower threshold for the use of tactical nuclear weapons than we do. And so I can foresee a situation where, if Putin is being -- if he himself perceives he's being defeated or Russia is being defeated, that he may decide that the way to salvage the situation is the use of nuclear weapons.

I hope -- I hope to God that doesn't happen, but it's not something that can be summarily dismissed. And, as CIA Director Bill Burns recently said, you just can't take lightly statements made that infer the use of nuclear weapons. And, of course, General Milley spoke to that quite forcefully today.

CABRERA: Yes.

Director Clapper, thank you so much for joining us. Appreciate your expertise and insights.

(CROSSTALK)

CABRERA: A lot of people take a daily aspirin to prevent a heart attack, but could it actually do harm? The new guidance you need to know about.

Plus, talk about sticker shock. Home prices spiked in January, as buyers scrambled to get ahead of surging mortgage rates. We have got the details.

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