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U.N. Secretary-General Meets With Putin In Moscow; U.S. Seeking "Weakened" Russia Marks Shift In Biden Strategy; Vice President Harris Tests Positive For COVID-19; U.S. Task Force Advisers Against Daily Aspirin Heart Regimen. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired April 26, 2022 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: It's the top of the hour on CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Alisyn Camerota.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: I'm Victor Blackwell.

Vladimir Putin just met with the U.N. secretary general who said Putin agreed in principle to let the Red Cross and the United Nations evacuate civilians from a factory in Mariupol. And the Russians have surrounded the plant where more than a thousand people are reportedly sheltering. Putin also made some ridiculous claims, including that Ukrainian forces were hiding behind civilians and keeping them from escaping.

The Ukrainian mayors, governors, President Zelenskyy even, they have said many times over the weeks that Russia has broken promises to hold their fire, and that prevented evacuations.

CAMEROTA: Today, America's top two defense officials say Ukraine can win this war, and the fighting may weaken Russia to the point that it would not attack other nations. Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, Mark Milley, and Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin met with 35 nations to discuss the future military needs of Ukraine. Secretary Austin said Russia's actions in Ukraine are, quote, indefensible. While General Milley stressed the entire global international security order is at stake.

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LLOYD AUSTIN, DEFENSE SECRETARY: We don't have any time to waste. The briefings today laid out clearly why the coming weeks will be so crucial for Ukraine. So we've got to move at the speed of war. And I know that all the leaders leave today, more resolve than ever to support Ukraine in its fight against Russian aggression and atrocities.

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BLACKWELL: With us now, CNN White House reporter, Natasha Bertrand. Natasha, the secretary was asked about this goal of wanting to see a

weakened Russia. What did he say, and is this a shift in the administration's strategy?

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Yes, and the secretary reiterated that the ultimate outcome that the U.S. and its allies want to see from this war is for Russia to be weakened so much that it cannot launch this kind of war of aggression ever again. And that is really a subtle, but important shift in the U.S. rhetoric that has happened over the last several weeks, and it really came after the world saw that massacre of civilians in Bucha in Ukraine, the U.S. and its allies really started to realize that now is a key opportunity, a very important opportunity for the West to stop Russia decisively, to defeat them decisively on the battlefield and weaken them to the point, including with sanctions that they are unable to launch these kinds of military operations in the future, bullying their neighbors is what Austin had said earlier today.

So, this is a very important shift that is not only rhetorical but also, you know, in terms of the weaponry that the U.S. has been sending over the last several weeks, heavier equipment, Germany, and a major policy shift announced today that it's going to be sending heavy anti-aircraft tanks to Ukraine for the first time. I think that Mark Milley, the chairman of the joint chiefs, really underscored this in his comments today when he said that now the moment that the West really has to stop Russia's aggression.

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GEN. MARK MILLEY, CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: There's no answer to this aggression. If Russia gets away with this cost free, then so goes the so called international order. And if that happens, then we're heading into an era of seriously increased instability. So right now, it's the time, and right now is the opportunity here to stop aggression, and restore peace and security to the European continent.

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BERTRAND: So whereas previously, the United States had been throwing its support behind a negotiated peace settled, which, of course, they would like to see happen, they're becoming less optimistic that that is a realistic possibility here. Neither side seems willing to come to the table, especially after the massacres of civilians we have seen in Ukraine. The Russians also feel emboldened in eastern Ukraine. This, of course, has the possibility of fueling Putin's paranoia, the rhetoric from the U.S. and allies, raising the prospect he could lash out and become more unpredictable.

But the U.S. really believes this is a key moment they have to provide this weaponry to Ukraine, to sanction Russia and essentially stop them for good.

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CAMEROTA: OK. Natasha Bertrand, thank you for that reporting. CNN's Scott McLean is with us in Lviv.

So, Scott, we're hearing more about heavy fighting in the east. What's the latest?

SCOTT MCLEAN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Alisyn.

Yeah, that's right. Ukrainian officials say that fighting has really become heavy in the eastern and the southern parts of the country, specifically in the Donetsk and Luhansk region. They say there has been heavy shelling across the front line. In Kharkiv, there has been a build up of Russian troops there trying to capture a strategic town which would allow them to move further west toward Kramatorsk, the same town that you'll remember a couple of weeks ago, the train station there was bombed, killing civilians.

Perhaps, though, the most significant military development in the last 24 hours, though, was a Russian missile strike on a bridge south of Odesa. The bridge is significant because it's the only road or rail link between southwestern Ukraine and the rest of the country, and so a military official in Odesa said this is an attempt by Russia to isolate part of Ukraine and raise tensions given what's happening in the area, and specifically what's happening in that area right next door is Moldova and Transnistria, this breakaway, the separatist Russian-speaking statelet where Russian troops have been stationed since the 1990s.

There have been two mysterious, unclaimed attacks in just a 24-hour period against a government building and just earlier this morning against two radio towers there, the Ukrainians are now concerned that this is a precursor to a new front in this war, the Moldovans, well, the president said that -- she said that the attacks were a provocation meant to destabilize -- Victor, Alisyn.

BLACKWELL: Scott, what more do you know about the claim from the mayor of Mariupol that a third mass grave has been discovered?

MCLEAN: Yeah, so previously there had been mass graves, according to local officials, found in villages to the east and to the west of the city. This one is just outside the northern city limits and, they say that it first showed up on satellite images in March, and then it's grown since then. It's now some 200 yards long, these trenches that have been dug.

And the most disturbing thing is that the mayor said that local members of the population were enlisted to help dig those trenches in exchange for the very basics, food and water. Again, CNN can't confirm the existence of mass graves but of course that is a pretty dire development if, in fact, that is the case.

Now, the situation obviously in Mariupol is desperate. The U.N. secretary general making it a priority to talk about that, to try to organize some kind of humanitarian corridor out of that area. But part of what's really been hampering things is the Ukrainians saying that Russians continue to push people toward Russian territory. Just last week, more than 300 people from Mariupol showed up in Siberia. Headlines like that bring up painful memories of an area -- an era in

Soviet history from more than 70 years ago when millions of people were forcibly relocated from their homes to remote parts of the Soviet Union. I had a chance to speak with an Estonian survivor of these forced relocations, who said he sees plenty of parallels with his own story and what's happening in Ukraine today. Listen.

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ENNO UIBO, SURVIVED FORCED DEPORTATION AS A CHILD DURING SOVIET ERA: I was sure that nothing like this could ever happen again. What has happened in Ukraine has brought these painful memories back very vividly. It's unbelievable that time hasn't changed anything at all. Evil has become even worse, with my whole soul I feel for Ukrainians who are taken violently against their will from their homes to the unknown.

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MCLEAN: So again, these stories about people being pushed into Russian territory is part of what scuffed any chance, she would not agree to one because she said the Russians could not be trusted to keep their words. She was calling on the United Nations to get involved, help mediate, to help on the ground to establish those corridors. It seems, based on today the calls have been heeded. It's a matter of whether the Russians and Ukrainians can actually sit down and agree to something that will actually work -- Victor, Alisyn.

BLACKWELL: Scott McLean for us in Lviv -- Scott, thank you.

Joining us now, retired Army Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt. He served as secretary for political military affairs during the Bush administration.

General, welcome back.

I want to start here with this sliver of Moldova here that Scott McLean mentioned, about a half million people there. There have been Russian troops there for about 30 years, and now there are these two mysterious explosions there.

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The Pentagon says it's too soon to know exactly what's going on. What's your take?

BRIG. GEN. MARK KIMMITT, U.S. ARMY (RET.): Well, I agree with the Pentagon. It is too early. I think what we've got to be worried about, though, is that this is a false flag operation, conducted by Russia to give them an excuse to go from the south around Odesa and up into the region, and we sort of have another situation as we did in Ukraine two months ago.

CAMEROTA: And, General, I mean, if they -- if they did that, what's the point, they're not just trying to take over the Donbas. Then they are expanding their goals and ambition? KIMMITT: Well, we've worried for quite some time, Alisyn, about them

going into Odesa and beyond. If they do take Odesa, if they do take that southern coastline, you now have a landlocked Ukraine. This is a country that depends on so much of its revenue from agriculture and other products that are transported in and out from those ports in Odesa and Mariupol for that matter. So that would have a significant economic effect on the country, not only a military effect.

BLACKWELL: Germany today announced that it would be supporting Ukrainian forces with 50 of the Gepard systems. We've got some video here. These are these armored vehicles, tanks here, antiaircraft.

Before the invasion, Germany committed 5,000 helmets. This is the first heavy weaponry they have committed to Ukraine. The significance to the fight and for the broader strategy?

KIMMITT: Well, I think it's good that we've got Germany in the game right now. I'm not an expert on Germany, but I think we've got to recognize that they have had a turnover in leadership over the last 120 days. This may simply have been a chance for the new chancellor to get his feet on the ground and to understand the situation and understand the German popular opinion before he made a decision to support this operation.

CAMEROTA: General, I want to ask you about what is happening in the Donbas right now. So for a long time, we had heard that the Russians weren't making any territorial gains, and then today we're hearing that, in fact, they are in charge. Would you mind circling this for me?

BLACKWELL: Yeah, go ahead.

CAMEROTA: Kherson, Kherson, and then also Kreminna, so that they are now in control, territorially, and politically in Kherson and Kreminna. So, they are making progress. What's the significance?

BLACKWELL: Well, I think we have worried for quite some time about this second phase of the operation, where they have collapsed their forces into the Donbas, brought in a new brutal, but effective general who operated in Syria for years and years.

Those of us that have studied Russian tactics of the past, Soviet tactics would expect that this is preparatory for a large offensive operation. We don't know how far the Russians would want to push the separatists and their own forces, but this is something that could well be a second phase, a much tougher phase for the Ukrainians.

And if that's the case, it's going to get bloodier and there are going to be more civilians tht are going to be suffering as a result.

BLACKWELL: Secretary Austin today denied the claims from the foreign minister from Russia, Sergey Lavrov, that this is a proxy war for NATO with the flooding in of military aid. What's your take on that proxy war claim?

KIMMITT: Well, it certainly is not a proxy war. We are helping a sovereign nation, Ukraine, defend itself -- a country that, oh, by the way, signed the Budapest memorandum in 1994, giving up all of their nuclear weapons for a recognition of that territorial sovereignty. One of the countries that signed that memorandum was Russia and Russia now is violating the memorandum they signed in 1994.

CAMEROTA: Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt, thank you very much for your expertise. Great to talk to you.

BLACKWELL: Thank you, sir.

Breaking news out of the White House, Vice President Kamala Harris has tested positive for COVID.

CAMEROTA: And new guidance is upending a long time practice. The U.S. health task force now says they do not recommend taking daily aspirin for cardiac health. We're going to explain why.

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BLACKWELL: Vice President Kamala Harris tested positive for COVID-19 after returning from a week long trip to California. The White House confirmed her diagnosis today. She's taking both a rapid and PCR test.

CAMEROTA: According to the administration, she does not have symptoms and isolating at the VP's residence. With her travel schedules, Harris and the president have not been in close contact since April 18th. She tweeted she's grateful to be both vaccinated and boosted.

Let's bring in Dr. Jonathan Reiner. He's a CNN medical analyst, cardiologist, and professor of medicine and surgery at George Washington University.

Dr. Reiner, great to see you.

So, she doesn't have any symptoms. If her COVID infection follows the natural course, when will she be able to get back to work?

DR. JONATHAN REINER, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: That's a great question, Alisyn.

So, according to the CDC, you can go back to work in five days without testing. But we know that many people are -- will test positive with a rapid antigen test which means that you're contagious for more days than that, seven, eight, nine, up to ten days.

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So, what I would suggest is the vice president not return back to work at the White House until she tests negative. And I'm sure that's what my colleagues there will do.

One thing to note is that there's no mask mandate on the White House grounds. Now, despite really a vigorous surge of COVID in D.C. at this time, if you work in the White House or even in the West Wing, there's no mask mandate, and this is how virus spreads.

BLACKWELL: You also suggested that President Biden should skip the White House Correspondents Dinner on Saturday. Explain why.

REINER: Because D.C. is a hot spot for COVID now. And although the president and vice president gladly are well-vaccinated and well- boosted, and their risk of a serious adverse event should they contract the virus is low, the president is actually in one of the highest risk groups. He's almost 80 years old, and although he should do okay, it's going to knock him down for several days.

And again, I think my colleagues at the White House are doing all they can to prevent the president from becoming infected, but an event like the White House Correspondents Association dinner in the Hilton ballroom packed with folks in an environment where just about everyone is coming down with COVID, seems rather optional, wouldn't you think?

And I think if we're trying to cloak the president with protection, one of the things that you would say is optional, and you would not do is send him into a ballroom of people who might be effective for the virus, despite the fact that we are trying to protect everyone by insisting that everyone is vaccinated, and everyone is tested in close proximity to the event. I think it's an unnecessary risk for the president.

CAMEROTA: Okay. Let's talk about the other big medical news today, and that is people are -- it's no longer recommended that people take a preventative aspirin every day? I mean, something like 29 million people this morning took their prophylactic baby aspirin or I guess low dose aspirin.

BLACKWELL: My grandmother took, may she rest in peace, a baby aspirin every day I can remember, and now this is the guidance is to stop doing that.

CAMEROTA: What happened?

REINER: Well, first of all, what I would tell everyone who's listening to this is before you stop your aspirin, talk to your doctor or a health care provider because there's sort of two class of folks who take aspirin. There's a -- what the U.S. preventative task force, what was really focusing on are people who don't have known cardiac or vascular disease who are taking aspirin to prevent, that's called primary prevention.

And what the data shows is that if you are really not in a high risk group, then there really is little benefit, and in fact, you are at greater risk of developing a side effect from aspirin, which is bleeding. Aspirin is a blood thinner and the side effect of a blood thinner is bleeding, than you are to obtain a benefit from actually taking the medicine, and avoiding a heart attack or a stroke.

But the other group of people who take aspirin for secondary prevention, preventing another event are the people I take care of every day. People who have had heart attacks, people who have had stents put in, coronary artery bypass surgery and for folks like that, aspirin is mandatory or necessary.

So, I don't want people to get the message that, gee, everyone who takes aspirin should stop taking it. For anyone who's taking it, talk to your doctor about it. And a lot of people who take aspirin now take it for a very solid reason and they should continue.

BLACKWELL: Dr. Reiner, before we go, Dr. Deborah Birx who was the White House coronavirus response coordinator during the Trump administration, she's written a new book. It is "Silent Invasion: The Untold Story of the Trump Administration, COVID-19, and Preventing the Next Pandemic Before It Is Too Late" -- long title there.

She suggests that there were many failures, and says she could have done better. You'll remember when President Trump said maybe there should be an injection of disinfectant to kind of clear up the lungs, she said to -- the floor to open and swallow her, and she wanted something to kick. What should she have done there?

REINER: Well, she should have said to the president -- you know, no, sir, that's not something we can do, or other things that we can do. She could have spoken up.

Look, I'll remind you that Dr. Birx gave an interview to, I think, the Christian Broadcasting Network where she described the president as having unique analytic abilities, the ability to synthesize huge amounts of information which made him quite adept at managing this pandemic.

She wasn't just sort of a passenger on the Titanic. She was part of the bridge crew. So for her to suggest that she was a victim and there wasn't anything she could do, she could have spoken up.

[15:25:02]

When the president hired a new coordinator, Scott Atlas, who advocated to basically let the virus run wild through the country, she remained silent. And to me, silence equals complicity.

BLACKWELL: Dr. Jonathan Reiner, thank you so much, sir.

REINER: My pleasure.

BLACKWELL: Programming note, Dr. Deborah Birx joins the lead with Jake Tapper. That's next hour to talk about her book and experience at the White House right here on CNN.

CAMEROTA: We'll hear how she responds to some of those opinions.

Meanwhile, a new report reveals anti-Semitic acts in the U.S. are drastically rising.

BLACKWELL: According to the Anti-Defamation League, assaults, vandalism, and harassment targeting Jewish communities and individuals is up 34 percent last year compared to 2020. More than 2,700 incidents were documented, most of them being forms of harassment, and there were no deaths linked to anti-Semitic violence. CAMEROTA: So, the United Nations says millions more people could flee

Ukraine in the coming months. Ukraine's former first lady joins us next on the refugee crisis and the future for those left behind.

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