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Rep. Gaetz: McCarthy & Scalise Displayed "Behavior Of Weak Mean, Not Leaders"; Exclusive: Bucha Prosecutor Shares Photos Of Civilians Killed In Town, Russia Denies War Crimes; Special Grand Jury In Trump Org. Probe Set To Expire This Week; Trump Appeals Court Order To Pay $10,000 Daily Fine In NY AG Probe; Fauci: U.S. Is Out Of The Pandemic Phase. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired April 27, 2022 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:30:00]

NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Right now, as Scott talked about, he is on board. Donald Trump likes Kevin McCarthy. And he hasn't had a problem with these tapes so far.

But there's a long way to go at this point before we see the midterms and see who wins and who runs for speaker. Can Kevin McCarthy sort of hold the line with Donald Trump and hold him on his team at this point? So we'll see.

I think the other question is, who, other than Kevin McCarthy, could be speaker? That is the big question, too.

And Tucker Carlson alluded to that, this idea, can conservatives get their act together? That's always been the question.

Could they field a candidate other than Kevin McCarthy who could get a majority of folks to be the speaker of the House after the midterms if the House GOP wins?

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: OK. Scott Jennings, Nia-Malika Henderson, thank you both.

HENDERSON: Thank you.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: The Kremlin has repeatedly tried to deny that Russia bears responsibility for the carnage in Bucha. But CNN has obtained exclusive new photos and videos that tell a different story. Will there be accountability? That's next.

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[14:35:45]

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Some shocking images that have come out of Bucha after Russian troops withdrawn caught the world's attention and are hard to forget.

The Kremlin repeatedly denies any responsibility for the killings that took place there. But new drone video obtained exclusively by CNN indicates otherwise.

The images are graphic, I'm warning, and disturbing.

They show Ukrainian civilians lying dead in the streets. But we also see what appear to be Russian tanks located in the same area.

CNN has geolocated and confirmed that the videos and images are authentic.

Stephen Rapp is the former U.S. ambassador-at-large for war crimes issues.

Yesterday, I spoke with Karim Kahn, the chief prosecutor for the International Criminal Court. He said that he believes Russia will be held accountable.

But that journey to accountability, it may take a very, very long time. This is a hard process, isn't it?

STEPHEN RAPP, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR-AT-LARGE FOR WAR CRIMES ISSUES: It is a hard process. And it requires hard evidence.

I'm very impressed with your reports and the imagery that you've obtained. And there's a lot more that's out there.

Of course, we continue to get denials from the Russians, even from the mouth of the foreign minister who continues it say this is all a provocation and a made-up event.

And we know that it isn't. These are real images that have been verified in dozens of different ways.

But to prosecute crimes like these, you have to tie them to the high level. It's perhaps easier in this situation than we had when we went off Charles Taylor Milosevich, who was sort of indirectly charged for actions of proxy forces because these are Russian soldiers under Putin's command.

But you still have to show those were Russian soldiers under his command, and they weren't irregulars or rogue units. And you have to trace that line of command up to him. And it requires more investigative work. The prosecutor spoke to that in the United States yesterday.

And I think we Americans can participate. We could join the investigative team that Poland and Lithuania and Ukraine have put together, that they've invited other countries and the ICC into.

ICC joined yesterday. We should join as well. And we could have our own FBI agents and others out there helping build this case as quickly as possible so that there could be high-level arrest warrants issued, public arrest warrants.

Of course, that doesn't mean you'd get the guy in custody if it's a high-level Russian or Putin. There's a possibility that lower-level individuals that are captured on the battlefield might be prosecuted by the Ukrainians.

But we really want to take this to the top, to the people that made these horrible crimes happen.

COOPER: When we were in Bucha yesterday and talking to the Bucha prosecutor, he showed us photographs that they've obtained -- and seeing them for the first time -- that were taken by an eyewitness on the street where many of the -- many killings took place.

There was a Russian APC parked at the end of the street that shot many people on that street. There was another APC and a tank also elsewhere on the street.

The images that they show, which were all taken by the same eyewitness over the course of several days, that eyewitness gave the camera to prosecutors.

So they now have not only the images -- some of the images that we just showed and others. They also have the device which took those images, which I assume would have metadata in it, which would indicate location and time and date of the photographs being taken.

And that's important, isn't it, in a case like this? Because right now, with the satellite images that Maxar Technologies put out, which are convincing, but Russia just says point-blank, well, there's no firm date on those and those are all faked.

Once you have images that have actual dates embedded in them taken by people on the street, that's very convincing.

RAPP: Well, I think it is.

And I think you've gotten to the key point here, which, with images from a camera and with proper forensic analysis, both of the camera, its apparatus and the metadata that's contained, particularly in digital images, that will show GPS and the very second the photo was taken, and that negates the possibility that it's a composite or a Photoshopped image.

[14:40:10]

We saw this with the Caesar photos, for instance, in the context of Syrian torture and the way in which those were relied on in the German court to convict the colonel who was involved in that torture for murder and the other crimes. So this can be extremely valuable.

And it also, I think, makes the point that it's not just the official. It's not just the prosecutors. It's civil society actors and others that play a key role here. Of course, we want them to do their work carefully and professionally.

But obviously, this kind of image, together with the kind of image from your drone and the satellite image from commercial sources as well as that, that can be further verified and refined from the assistance of U.S. agencies or other agencies that have even sharper imagery, can really put together a strong case about what happened there.

And then, all of the other information can lead us up that chain of command. It takes some additional work, but it doesn't take forever to do the charging.

I mean, Milosevic was charged about 45 days after the ethnic cleansing in Kosovo began.

And the prosecutor obviously wants to do his work very carefully. But there could be charges in the relatively near future if the investigative support and the forensic support is there to really make this rock solid.

COOPER: Ambassador Stephen Rapp, I appreciate your expertise. Thank you so much.

RAPP: Yes, good to be with you.

COOPER: Let's go back to Victor and Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: OK, Anderson, thank you very much.

We have some breaking news. That special grand jury tasked with hearing evidence about the Trump Organization's finances, that's set to expire this week. Does that mean the investigation is over?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:46:33]

BLACKWELL: The special grand jury that was appointed to hear evidence in the Manhattan D.A.'s investigation into the Trump Organization is set to expire at the end of this week. It will not be extended.

CNN's Kara Scannell broke this story. She's with us now.

What does this mean? Does this mean this is over?

KARA SCANNELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: No, it's not over yet. I mean, the expiration of this grand jury is something that was set to happen, and they did not choose to renew it. But it doesn't mean this investigation is over.

And if we remember, this initial grand jury was seated last October. They started to present evidence to it with a few witnesses in the fall. Then a new D.A. came in, Alvin Bragg.

Some of these top prosecutors, remember, they resigned.

BLACKWELL: Oh, yes.

SCANNELL: They wanted him to move forward to authorize an indictment. He's about six weeks into office, he said, no, I don't want to do that. They stopped presenting evidence then.

I think what we can take away from this is that this does not indicate that Bragg's calculus has changed. It doesn't tell us that he thinks they now have enough evidence some two months later to move forward with an indictment.

But he has said there was no magic number to this grand jury expiring. There are grand juries seated all of the time. He said this investigation's continuing. People are working on it every day. And that they will be dictated by the facts that they uncover.

Whether this ever changes, if they're able to get enough evidence, they don't have a cooperator, these are tough cases these financial cases. Will that change? We don't know yet. But their investigation is still

continuing.

CAMEROTA: Just yesterday, this New York state judge fined Donald Trump $10,000 a day for not handing over previously requested documents to the D.A. Is he paying that money?

SCANNELL: Well, yes, so this was the New York attorney general's civil investigation. And that's where the judge said, you know, you haven't complied with this subpoena that you got in December, and you blew through a deadline.

He said, you've not, you know, exhibited good faith. You didn't try to look for these documents. So we imposed these fines, starting yesterday at $10,000 a day.

Trump's attorneys have not returned calls for comment to explain whether he has paid any of this money.

But they did file an appeal. And often, when there's an appeal, that kind of puts the brakes on the need to make these payments.

CAMEROTA: OK. Thanks for the update, Kara Scannell. Really appreciate it.

[14:48:41]

BLACKWELL: Dr. Anthony Fauci says the U.S. is no longer in the COVID pandemic phase. What that means for you, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:53:32]

A CDC forecast that was just released shows new COVID-19 hospitalizations are expected to increase in the next four weeks. But Dr. Anthony Fauci says we're entering a new phase.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY & INFECTIOUS DISEASES: We are certainly right now in this country out of the pandemic phase. Namely we don't have 900,000 new infections a day and tens and tens and tens of thousands of hospitalizations and thousands of deaths. We are at a low level right now. (END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: Very good news there.

CNN health correspondent, Jacqueline Howard, is with us now.

The CDC also said, Jacqueline, that by February of this year, three out of four children had developed COVID antibodies, so some protections there. What do the numbers show us now.

JACQUELINE HOWARD, CNN HEALTH REPORTER: Victor, I can tell you the numbers show that COVID is spreading, specifically fueled by the Omicron variant.

But just because many people have had COVID and likely have natural immunity, what we should not take away from this is that there's no longer a need for vaccinations.

I spoke with the head of National Association of Cunty and City Health Officials, Lori Tremmel Freeman, about this just this morning. And she said that she hopes that these new numbers that this data does not discourage people from still getting vaccinated. They're still in need.

Here's why. I'll take you through where we are, Victor and Alisyn.

So when you look at the forecast, the CDC's COVID-19 forecast, it does predict that we'll likely see new daily confirmed hospital admissions increase in the coming weeks, likely reported by May 20th. You see the statement there, based on what that forecast predicts.

[14:55:14]

And then if we look at the current state of hospitalizations, people hospitalized in the past week versus the previous week, you see here that there are increases in several states. And this trend is expected to continue through May.

And then if you look at the current hospitalizations right now in the U.S., you see how they rose in December. They went down. And now we're at April 27th.

At the end of this data line here, you see this increase starting to begin. So that is what has health officials really looking at the current need to still continue vaccinations and not take our foot off the pedal.

When you look at cases, the seven-day average of cases -- this is the last data point I'll point to here, Victor -- that also shows, see April 27th, a slight increase there as well.

So that's where we are right now with the numbers -- Victor, Alisyn?

BLACKWELL: We're not mad at an extra data set. If you have more info, we'll take it.

(LAUGHTER)

BLACKWELL: Jacqueline Howard, thank you so much.

CAMEROTA: OK, so one of the world's leading banks warns the U.S. is heading for a major recession. What is behind that dire forecast? That's ahead.

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