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U.N. Projects More Than 8 Million Refugees Will Flee Ukraine; Soon, Biden Details Request For $33 Billion in Additional Aid For Ukraine; Ukrainian Forced to Have Fingers Amputated After Russian Torture. Aired 10:30-11a ET

Aired April 28, 2022 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[10:30:00]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: The numbers are just staggering. Since the start of Russia's invasion of Ukraine, the U.N. estimates more than 5 million, 5 million Ukrainians have fled their country. The U.N. expects that, by the end of it all, some 8 million people will have left this country trying to find safety.

But in recent weeks, as I've come here, there's been a shift we've noticed with many people choosing instead of leaving Ukraine to try to find a way to stay inside their country. So far, more than 7 million Ukrainians have been displaced internally.

So, this week, we visited a church that's doing its best to serve those people.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO (voice over): Since the Russian invasion, Father Gregory Draus has transformed the church of St. John Paul II from place of worship to a home for refugees of war.

So, you started with eight and now how many do you have?

FATHER GREGORY DRAUS, HOSTS UKRAINIAN REFUGEES: 200.

SCIUTTO: But over the last few weeks, something has changed among the refugees he cares for. In the early days, Lviv was mostly a way station for people fleeing Ukraine for safety abroad. More than 5 million people have fled the country.

Now, though, many prefer to stay, which Father Gregory welcomes.

DRAUS: It is awful Ukraine was destroyed by the war, people are killed, and also a kind of destroying of Ukraine would be also immigrations.

[10:35:00]

If the number of people are killed and the same number or bigger number of people go abroad, for the situation of society of Ukraine, it's the same.

SCIUTTO: Ethnic cleansing, right? Ethnic cleansing, you know this term?

DRAUS: Yes. That's why we want to support to stay here.

SCIUTTO: Lada left Kharkiv in the midst of heavy Russian bombing, including one strike that destroyed a school near her home. She is now eight months pregnant but wants her baby to be born in Ukraine.

Boy or girl? Do we know?

A girl. Do you have a name?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Melana.

SCIUTTO: Alezia (ph) from Zaporizhzhia, who prefer to stay while her husband performs his military service, though her autistic daughter could receive better treatment in Germany.

So, you don't want to leave as long as your husband is fighting?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE).

SCIUTTO: Father Gregory offers them more than just a place to sleep, it's a community. Children play and take online classes. Families get clothes and medical care.

DRAUS: We want to give them not only bed and breakfast, not only bed and food, but also give them help psychologists help. There was a group that came for psychologists, a special meeting for children, meeting for adults.

SCIUTTO: You give them a home.

DRAUS: Home.

SCIUTTO: It's not Kyiv or Kryvyi Rih, where Oksana and Olena (ph) were from, but it is Ukraine. We are at home here, Oksana (ph) told us. We have our people around us. Even though we're in a different city, said Olena (ph), we're still in Ukraine. We're still at home.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO (on camera): You know, Bianna, one thing I constantly try to remind people is that the refugee crisis from this war is not just a byproduct, it's part of the Russian plan, right, that they want to depopulate, we heard a Ukrainian official say earlier this week, parts of the country either by bombing people or killing them, sadly, we've seen that, or chasing them away, so that when I spoke to Ukrainians this week and at other times who were choosing to stay here, that's partly their defiance. They want to stand up to the Russian invasion, to that fear and say, no, I'm not leaving my country. I'll come to a safer place but you're not going to chase me out.

GOLODRYGA: Yes, and that defiance to stay, also to stay with your family. I mean, I think people are realizing, and as they see in your piece, you interviewed that woman, she wants to stay there and be with her husband. It's difficult enough to be a refugee as an entire family fleeing a country. Here it's only women and children and the elderly that can do so.

SCIUTTO: No question. That's why it's often, particularly in Lviv, as you've seen people fleeing, you see women and children, right? I mean, that's the kind of a makeup, with some exemptions, older males or in the case of a family we knew, if you have three children, you get an exception, you can get out of military service, but, by and large, it's women and children leaving the country.

GOLODRYGA: Such important work done at that church, psychological health as well, so key. Jim, thank you.

Well, just into CNN, the Biden administration is set to request an additional $33 billion in aid for Ukraine. In just a few minutes, the president is expected to detail where that money would be going. We're live at the White House, up next.

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[10:40:00]

SCIUTTO: This just into CNN. The president will ask lawmakers to approve another $33 billion in funding to help Ukraine in the war against Russia. These are big numbers. President Biden is set to outline that request from the White House in just moments, the combination, Bianna, of both military assistance and also humanitarian assistance.

GOLODRYGA: Yes. CNN's John Harwood joins us now. So, John, this is in addition to the $13.6 billion authorized by Congress last month. Do we expect to see bipartisan approval here?

JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, we do. Look, as Ukraine settles in for this grinding, difficult, likely extended phase of conflict in the east and the south of Ukraine, the allies, NATO and the United States, recognize that they have got to continue stepping up to help Ukraine resist Russian aggression.

And so, as you mentioned, on top of that $13.6 billion approved previously, this is $33 billion, $20 billion in security assistance, armored vehicles, artillery, anti-armor, anti-air weaponry. You've also got cyber defense, a range of defense capabilities both for Ukraine and for countries around Ukraine, NATO allies. You also are going to have more than $10 billion in economic assistance. That's direct economic assistance for the government as well as humanitarian aid.

All of that will be in this supplemental package as well as new sanction legislation that the administration is proposing to make it easier for the United States to seize the assets of Russian oligarchs who have been sanctioned because of their ties to the regime.

So, this is all proposals that are likely to have bipartisan support. I don't know how fast they will move through the Congress but there's not much doubt that they're going to move through the Congress, guys.

SCIUTTO: Yes. Listen, one thing it shows is that this administration believes that this war is not going to end any time soon, right? It seems to be they were preparing Ukraine and its military for the long haul.

John Harwood at the White House, thanks so much.

As we noted, President Biden will speak in just minutes and we'll bring you those comments live the moment they start.

[10:45:02]

Meanwhile, many fear the war in Ukraine will not end until Putin decides it's over. We are looking at the global consequences and the prospect of a years-long conflict, next.

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[10:50:00]

SCIUTTO: A Ukrainian man is sharing the grim story of what happened to him after Russian forces captured him. Oleg Moskalenko is from a town just outside of the capital, Kyiv. On March 7th, he says that Russian troops stopped him while just driving. They imprisoned him, beat him, tortured him for days. At one point, he says he was left in a cellar full of water with nothing to eat or drink while his wounds got progressively worse.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OLEG MOSKALENKO, TORTURED, BEATEN AND IMPRISONED BY RUSSIANS FOR DAYS: On the very first day when they captured me, they cut the fingers on my hands and I had open wounds. So, very soon, these wounds started rotting and eventually I had to have these fingers amputated. My hands and feet were black and you can see now I don't have all my fingers now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GOLODRYGA: Just one example of how the physical and emotional trauma of this war will stay with Ukrainians long after the fighting ends. But what if there's no clear end to this war?

SCIUTTO: Yes, that's the question our next guest raises in a piece for Foreign Affairs Magazine. Liana Fix is a political scientist and historian, also the program director for the Korber Foundation.

It's good to have you on because I worry about this that sometimes folks have a false impression of a hard end to and how soon it could be. Now, you have U.S. officials and others speaking of years, not weeks or months. Tell us why you believe that's a real danger.

LIANA FIX, PROGRAM DIRECTOR, KORBER FOUNDATION: It is a danger because Putin's war aims have not changed. He's now focusing on the east and on the south, but the overall aim is to get Ukraine under its control.

And then the question is whose side is time on? And it might well be that time is on Russia's side and it might be favorable for Russia to continue a war rather than accepting a humiliating defeat. And it might also be that the Russian president is betting on western societies to have some sort of war fatigue. The longer the war continues, to become tired of the war, to become tired of war crimes, as we've seen those in Syria, and to push for a quick end to the war, which would mean unacceptable Ukrainian concessions.

GOLODRYGA: And President Zelenskyy has said that he won't accept concession, that doesn't include what the terrain and what the landscape of its country look like before February 24th, before Russia invaded. Now, there are concerns about a sham referendum in Kherson. We've seen that in the Donetsk and Luhansk region there, in Donbas. Obviously, we've seen what happened in 2014 with Russia annexing Crimea.

Is there any viability for Ukraine's sovereignty if, in fact, you do continue to see more referendums like this?

FIX: I mean, those referendums are obviously fake. It is an attempt by the Russian side to set up a political structure, which is not supported by the population. So, we will see resistance in those parts.

But Russia's atrocities in other parts of Ukraine have made it even more difficult for Kyiv to negotiate with Russia and negotiations at that time might be well too early until those territories are again under Ukrainian control and Ukraine can protect its citizens, which is the basic -- the basic task of a state.

This all points to the fact that we might see a war that is not over in a couple of months but might actually perhaps will continue for a couple of years in the worst case.

SCIUTTO: So what is the U.S./NATO response? You heard U.S. and NATO officials make some waves earlier this week when they said that the goal of this in part is to weaken Russia so that it can't carry out a war such as this on others. Does your view, in effect, justify that that view, right, that holding the line is not enough?

FIX: Yes. I mean, from a western perspective, it is about Ukraine's territorial integrity and about its independence, but it is also about the question, what would Russia do next if it were to win in Ukraine. And the sense that Ukraine is defending not only its own security but the security of Europe is very real.

And the global consequences of that might also include not only regional instability in Europe, provocations with eastern NATO member states by Russia, but we could also see global instability in other parts of the world, in the Middle East, in Africa, given -- due to all the consequences, the rising food prices, the wheat price.

[10:55:00] So -- and Europe at the same time might also see an economic recession by this war. It is now preparing to reduce its oil and gas dependency on Russia, but those are tough steps because Europe has maneuvered itself into energy dependence from Russia.

SCIUTTO: It's amazing, amazing to think about this in years. Liana Fix, thanks so much for joining us.

GOLODRYGA: And thank you so much for joining us today. I'm Bianna Golodryga in New York.

SCIUTTO: And I'm Jim Sciutto in Lviv.

At This Hour with Kate Bolduan starts right after a quick break.

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