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U.S.: Russia Planning to Replace Ukraine's Government; January 6 Committee Chair: We'll Be Reaching Out to More Members of Congress Soon; Georgia Governor Signs Controversial Education Bills Into Law; Author Fights Back as States Ramp Up Book Banning. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired April 28, 2022 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:30:00]

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: U.S. officials say they have information that Russia's plan to take over Ukraine apparently includes gutting the country's government, setting up a new one and blocking current leaders from holding office again. That's according to U.S. ambassador to the Organization of Security and Cooperation in Europe. He said this speaking before their permanent counsel today.

Michael Bociurkiw, former spokesperson for the OSCE joins me now. Micheal, Russian forces have already pushed out elected officials in Kherson, replacing them with their own. They've been talking of having a referendum of sorts there. Does this change how the U.S. should view the war?

MICHAEL BOCIURKIW, FORMER, SPOKESMAN, ORGANIZATION OF SECURITY AND COOPERATION IN EUROPE: Well, absolutely. But it shouldn't surprise them, Anderson, because, you know, that's what the Russian backed thugs has been doing in Donetsk and Luhansk for the past eight years. I mean, I remember when I was with the OSC and they were just coming into that part of Ukraine, the first thing they did is replace Ukraine media with Russian media, introduce the ruble, forced passports onto people, change the curriculum, and destroyed sign of Ukrainian culture.

So, it's really, really sad to see this this being duplicated, almost a cookie cutter approach elsewhere in Ukraine. Something like 200 Ukrainian cultural sites have already been destroyed or heavily damaged by the Russian side. So not only is the human toll happening, but also very, very much on the cultural and political side, too.

COOPER: You and Secretary-General Antonio Guterres told me yesterday that -- he said the war will not end in meetings. The war will end when the Russian Federation decides to end it. I wonder what you make of his comments. It certainly doesn't bode well for any kind of negotiated settlement.

BOCIURKIW: Right. Yes, it was interesting he said that. You know, I've argued in a CNN opinion and elsewhere that the worst thing that can happen is for talks to stop, for diplomacy to stop. But you know, the trip -- Secretary Guterres trip to Moscow was very, very politically risky for him. And sadly, I don't think much came out of it. Everyone if he did get any sort of assurances from the Russian side. They've proven in the past 60 some days that they don't adhere to their agreements. And indeed, we found that also, you know, with the Russian-backed rebels if Donetsk as well. So, hopefully, he will get some kind of concession from the Russian side -- especially there in Mariupol where, as you pointed out earlier, the whole human toll is really, really huge.

[15:35:00]

COOPER: In a conflict like this, you really see the limitations of the United Nations. I mean, Russia is on the Security Council. They have a veto power over anything the Security Council decides to do.

BOCIURKIW: It's sad to see. I mean, from the beginning of the conflict, The United Nations has looked very toothless. In fact, you know, they're the ones that were formed -- they have the mandate to stop this kind of conflict from happening. And you know, I am a former spokesperson for UNICEF.

I have a very much insider type of view of the way things have gone. And at the beginning of the conflict, even the U.N. top officials did not believe that the Russians would invade. Hence, there was none of that pre-positioning of personnel and supplies that one would normally do when something like this is expected. And that's why I think the U.N. was on the bed on the backboard when this whole conflict happened. Very, very difficult now, Anderson, of course, to ramp things up because of the way the conflict is playing out, difficult supply chains. That sort of thing.

COOPER: The British Defense Minister Ben Wallace has said that with Putin's invasion, it's not going as planned. He may just accept his losses and instead hold on to areas he's gained. Wallace said that Putin could become a cancerous growth in Ukraine. How does one fight a cancerous growth?

BOCIURKIW: Yes, well, very concerning words. And I think again going back to what's happened in Donetsk and Luhansk in the last eight years, is that's what rebels have done -- of course, with Russian support -- is really dug in. And I think we're going to see going forward, is them holding onto the areas they have right now. But also, ratcheting up the conflict or ratcheting down as it suits their needs.

And for example, that missile strike today in Kyiv -- alleged missile strike. Well, that was I think an example of where things are going to go henceforth. That's why I've argued for the longest time that the West has also to give Ukrainians the abilities to close the skies, technologically and with weaponry. Otherwise, those missiles will continue to come to places like Kyiv and perhaps even here to Lviv and elsewhere. So, it's a very complex situation at the moment.

Yes, Michael Bociurkiw, I appreciate your perspective. Thank you so much.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: I'll take it Anderson. Thank you --

COOPER: Yes, go ahead.

CAMEROTA: I'll check back with you Anderson. thank you very much.

We have breaking news right now. On Capitol Hill where the House Select Committee chair says they are reaching out to more members of Congress as part of their investigation into the insurrection. We'll tell you who, next.

[15:40:00]

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CAMEROTA: The chair of the January 6 committee, Congressman Bennie Thompson, says the committee will be reaching out to more members of Congress this week. CNN's Ryan Nobles joins us now. Who do they want to talk to -- Ryan?

RYAN NOBLES, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, this is pretty interesting, Alisyn, chairman Thompson didn't say specifically who the committee is interested in talking to, but he did say that they will be extending invitations to both members of the House and Senate, asking them to cooperate with their investigation.

Up until this point, the committees only reached out to three different House members, Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy, Representative Jim Jordan and Representative Scott Perry. So, it seems now that they want to expand the pool of Republican members of the House that they want to talk to, and then additional add some Senators.

Now, he didn't specifically say who they want to talk to. But of course, a candidate could be Senator Mike Lee of Utah, who we revealed in an exclusive report was texting with Mark Meadows in the days after the 2020 election, talking about ways to possibly stand in the way of the certification of the election results.

That's not the only news that Thompson me today, Alisyn. He also revealed that the committee is preparing for as many as eight public hearings in the month of June. Some of them could take place at prime time. Some of them could take place during the day. But we've known that they've been gearing up for these prime-time hearings, these public hearings for some time. So, the idea that they're going to do as many as eight of those hearings is pretty significant news.

And all of this comes on the heels of the story that we broke last night. That the committee is preparing to bring forward the former mayor of New York City Rudy Giuliani to testify before the committee. They have not settled on a date quite next. But there are expected to do it sometime next month. Of course, Giuliani served as the president's lawyer. He was intimately involved in that effort to find a fake set of electors that were sent to the Congress that could probably be used as a replacement for the legitimate set of electors. So, there's a lot that Giuliani knows about the period of time leading up to January 6.

So, the committee is at a very busy stage right now, Alisyn, as they move forward towards the fall when they're going to need to issue that final report. These public hearings now, we're expecting to see happen sometime in June -- Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: It does sound like they're moving at quite a clip right now. Ryan, thank you for the update.

NOBLES: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: Well, as more states start to ban certain books from classrooms, some authors are taking matters into their own hands. That's next.

[15:45:00]

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CAMEROTA: The GOP continues to focus on what's happening in classrooms and in schools. Today, Georgia's Governor Brian Kemp signed several controversial measures into law. They include a bill giving parents the right to file a complaint if they disagree with classroom content. A bill preventing the teaching of so-called divisive ideologies based on race, and the same bill also prohibits transgender athletes from taking part in public school sports. Also, a bill that bans literature deemed offensive from school libraries.

School districts in 26 states have reportedly banned more than 1,000 books in the past nine months. This is according analysis from PEN America.

[15:50:00]

Now librarians and authors are fighting back. CNN's Evan McMorris- Santoro has the story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

EVAN MCMORRIS-SANTORO, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Melissa Hart's life is filled with young adult fiction. She writes Y.A. books from a small studio behind her house. She teaches other people to write Y.A. books. She dresses up at a t-rex and gives Y.A. books away.

MELISSA HART, AUTHOR AND JOURNALIST: This is where the magic happens.

MCMORRIS-SANTORO (voice over): Her latest title comes out this fall.

M. HART: Oh, "Daisy Woodworm Changes the World" is about a 14-year-old girl, and eighth grade passionate track and field runner, who also is an amateur entomologist. And when she gets an assignment from her social studies teacher to change the world, she decides to help her older brother who has down syndrome to fulfill his lifelong dream of becoming YouTube fashion celebrity. The problem is that their parents don't want him on social media. And if she can't help him fulfill his dream, she's failed him and her assignment.

MCMORRIS-SANTORO: That sounds like a pretty teenage story. A lot going on in that book. But all right. Are you afraid is going to get banned?

M. HART: I know it's going to get banned. MCMORRIS-SANTORO: Why?

HART: Because one of the main characters has two moms, and that is representative of the type of book that's being banned right now.

MCMORRIS-SANTORO (voice over): These days, a lot of people speculate about the intent of authors and educators. It's a frustrating situation for people who actually do those jobs.

M. HART: There are specific, controversial and harmful topics making their way into our schools that just don't belong here.

MCMORRIS-SANTORO: When you see a parent stand up at a school board meeting and say, you know, these books are indoctrinating my kids. What do you see when you see that?

M. HART: I see somebody who is not looking at their kid's social media feeds first and foremost. Books are not teaching kids to be a certain way. Books for kids are providing safe spaces for kids to explore their identity. And not just their identities.

MCMORRIS-SANTORO (voice over): In 2019, Hart wrote a book for adults. It's a good to finding inclusive books for kids. The idea came from the missing stories in her own childhood.

HART: I think that that representation is critical. I mean, I grew up not even aware that anybody besides me had two moms, because it wasn't in literature, it wasn't talked about.

MCMORRIS-SANTORO (voice over): Hart and her husband live with a lot of books, animals and their teen daughter. We agreed not to show her face on camera.

TEEN HART: I don't want to talk about it.

MCMORRIS-SANTORO (voice over): Like most teenagers, she's plugged into the social media culture war, where adults are increasingly warning that teenage lives are becoming dangerously confused about identity.

MCMORRIS-SANTORO: What do you say to those people?

TEEN HART: I say, obviously, you've grown up in a different world than we have. And, I mean, I identify as nonbinary, but I love all genders. I think they don't have the capability to understand us. Because they didn't grow up in our time. They don't know exactly what we're going through.

MCMORRIS-SANTORO (voice over): This teenager is thinking about becoming a writer. Not a surprise in a house like this one. When she hears adults attack books, she hears an attack on kids like her.

TEEN HART: What else are they supposed to read? Like Obviously, they're supposed to read, but they should read about themselves. They should see themselves in the books that they read. And not just white people or straight people or cisgender people. Like, look at yourself in a book. MCMORRIS-SANTORO: It seems like a pretty easy concept.

TEEN HART: Yes.

MCMORRIS-SANTORO: Why do you think it's so hard right now?

TEEN HART: Adults. Adults throwing tantrums.

MCMORRIS-SANTORO (voice over): The adults are not slowing down. More books are being challenged and states are passing laws to make challenging books even easier.

M. HART: I refuse to give in. I refuse to surrender. I will fight the good fight. I will put on my inflatable T-rex costume and fill the little free libraries in my community with diverse books until the cows come home.

MCMORRIS-SANTORO: Evan McMorris-Santoro, CNN, Eugene, Oregon.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CAMEROTA: Adults throwing temper tantrums. From the mouth of babes.

OK, so this Sunday, get ready for season two of Stanley Tucci's "Searching for Italy." his first stop, the floating city of Venice.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

STANLEY TUCCI, CNN SEARCHING FOR ITALY: And these are a cicchetti, a traditional Venetian snack.

TUCCI (through translated text): This is pork fat, right?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translated text): Yes, it's lardo. Red or white wine?

TUCCI (through translated text): White.

TUCCI (voice over): It's only 8:30, but a venetian breakfast is eaten standing up, washed down with a glass of wine known as a umbra or shadow.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translated text): These are our sea cicadas and it is served many different ways. Raw.

[15:55:00]

TUCCI (voice over): This is fast food Laguna style. The word cicchetti means a nothing, ironic, because it's really something.

TUCCI (through translated text): Is that a little bit of miso?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translated text): It's miso mayonnaise. Cooked by us, of course.

TUCCI: My God. UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translated text): And here are your cicchetti.

TUCCI: I'm coming over here so I can see it. Look at that. Oh, my God.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CAMEROTA: Stanley Tucci drinks wine for breakfast. That's what I just got out of this. Tune in Sunday for the season two premiere at 9:00 p.m. right here on CNN.

In "THE LEAD" with Jake Tapper starts after a short break.

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