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Dangers Of Delivering Supplies And Aids To Civilians Unable To Flee Soverodonetsk; Ukraine: Luhansk Region Bearing Brunt Of Increased Shelling; Mariupol's "Wall Of Steel" Holds Russian Forces At Bay; Ukraine Gathering Evidence Of Atrocities Committed In Bucha. Aired 12- 1a ET
Aired April 28, 2022 - 00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Breaking News.
KIM BRUNHUBER, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, and thanks so much for joining us. I'm Kim Brunhuber at CNN Center in Atlanta.
We begin with a strong warning from Vladimir Putin directed at the international community. The Russian leader is vowing that any foreign interference in Ukraine will be met with a "lightning fast response from Moscow". He made his comments during an address to Russian lawmakers in St. Petersburg. Here he is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VLADIMIR PUTIN, RUSSIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): If someone intends to intervene on what is happening from the outside and creates unacceptable strategic threats for us, then they should know that our response to oncoming strikes will be swift lightning fast. We have all the tools for this, ones that no one can brag about. And we won't brag, we will use them if needed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BRUNHUBER: -- has agreed in principle to U.N. and Red Cross involvement in the evacuation of civilians from the Azovstal steel plant in Mariupol. U.N. says it's now trying to develop a concrete plan.
That development came during a meeting in Moscow between the Russian leader and the U.N. Secretary General. Antonio Guterres is now in Ukraine, where he'll be meeting with the Ukrainian president and foreign minister in the hours ahead.
Here's how Guterres described his sit down with Vladimir Putin in an interview with Anderson Cooper.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) ANTONIO GUTERRES, U.N. SECURITY-GENERAL: Well, I think it was a very useful meeting. First of all, because it was possible to tell President Putin the same things I say in New York or I'll be able to say here in Kyiv, which means that the Russian invasion is against the Charter of the United Nations, it is a violation of the territorial integrity of the Ukraine. And that is why it must end as quickly as possible.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BRUNHUBER: So, for more, let's go live to Isa Soares in Lviv, Ukraine, Isa.
ISA SOARES, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning to you, Kim, thank you very much.
Well, Russia is increasing its shelling in eastern Ukraine and Ukrainian officials say the Luhansk region is bearing the brunt of these attacks. You are looking at the aftermath of a strike on a hospital in Savannah and Soverodonetsk set to be one of the region's only functioning hospitals. One woman is reported dead. Officials say the hospital is still operating despite suffering significant damage.
Soverodonetsk is among the hardest hit towns as Russia of course intensifies its offensive in the east of Ukraine.
Meantime, in the south, an explosion rocked the Russian occupied city of Kherson on Wednesday.
Russian state run media reports it was caused by three missiles fired by Ukraine. It reportedly happened near a T.V. broadcast allegedly causing Russian channels to go dark in the city.
And this fuel plant was hit Wednesday in the central region of Dnipropetrovsk, Russian forces have been repeatedly targeting Ukrainian full stocks (PH) and energy infrastructure there.
And caught in the middle of the bombardment, residence trying to hold on to any semblance really of normal life they can but with shells constantly raining down, that is next to impossible.
And just getting the minimum necessities of life is a struggle in itself. Our Sam Kiley has this report.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SAM KILEY, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Soverodonetsk on the frontline with Russia. It's an artillery frontline.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Basement, let's get into the basement.
KILEY: Local police are delivering aid to civilians unable to leave. There's no time to wait out the bombardment. There's no likely end to the shelling either. Supplies need delivering and fast.
She tells me there are three people next door including a granny of 92. Upstairs, a bedridden woman. She says that normally they stay in their flat and only use the basement when it's bad. Thank you for not forgetting us, she adds.
The urgency of these sorts of deliveries cannot be exaggerated. Just in this block, there's mostly old people. One gentleman is dying of cancer in front of his wife. She's saying she's living in a double hell.
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KILEY: Since we have been here, there have been five, six, eight impacts very, very close. And almost every tree, every corner, every bit of this local neighborhood has got the signs of recent impact. And Russians are just a kilometer, maybe three away.
Russian guns are so close you can hear the whole arc of their shells. From Kyiv to Mariupol, from Kharkiv to here, this is the Russian way of war, pound civilians, flatten cities, and maybe occupy the ashes.
Alexander (PH) says we're in danger now, they're shelling us, so it could come at any moment and shrapnel could hurt us. We try to hide there in the bomb shelter.
Two months of war has driven these people underground. And there's no end in sight.
The fear, Alexander confesses, he tries to keep inside. But it creeps out.
There's one more delivery that the police have got to make, but every time we try to get out the front door of this building, there's another impact. There's another one now. They're saying that the hospital, which is nearby, is under heavy shelling. We were planning to go there. We can't get through nor indeed at the moment can we even get out of this bunker.
The hospital was hit, images of the damage done that morning posted online by the local administration. Officials said that one civilian was killed, others injured, and several floors were badly damaged. The humanitarian effort goes on.
This woman asks only for the basics of existence. Water and candles for light.
Good job. You do this every day?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
KILEY: Lukdon (PH) tells me most people left here now have nowhere else to go. They have lived here all their lives and don't want to abandon their homes.
Do you think the Russians are going to take Soverodonetsk?
Never, he says, we will stand our ground to the last man. No one will leave here. That may be a dangerous claim. It's likely that Ukrainians will destroy this bridge to hold up the invasion. And anyone still here would then be trapped in Russian hands.
Sam Kiley, CNN, Soverodonetsk.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SOARES: Incredible reporting there from our teams on the ground.
Well, Britain's Foreign Secretary says sanctions have hit Russia hard. But Liz Truss says more needs to be done. And she's calling for further deliveries of weapons and war planes to Ukraine have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LIZ TRUSS, BRITISH FOREIGN SECRETARY: The war in Ukraine is our war. It's everyone's war. Because Ukraine's victory is a strategic imperative for all of us. Heavy weapons, tanks, airplanes, digging deep in our inventories, ramping up production. We need to do all of this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SOARES: Let's get more on all of this. Joining me now from Kyiv, Colonel Andrew Milburn retired Special Operations Commander for the U.S. Marine Corps and he joins me now.
Colonel, thank you very much for taking the time to speak to us this morning.
I want to get your thoughts first on what we heard from President Putin morning of a lightning fast response to any foreign interference in Ukraine. Is this in your view just more escalated rhetoric?
COL. ANDREW MILBURN (RET.), U.S. MARINE CORPS: Well, Isa, first of all, good morning, Kyiv time and hello to all of your listeners.
Look, here's the problem that Putin is, you know, he's a playground bully. And, you know, until now, the west has responded by cowering and backing down. I don't think that's too much of an exaggeration.
You know, that you're great to report Sam Kiley. Sam Kiley in particular, remarkable report, you know, you see what the Russians are doing on the ground, and how do we respond? We collectively in the west sanctions, you know, give me a break.
And the more Putin -- the more Putin pounces chest and threatens. The more that the U.S. administration backpedals. You know, we keep worrying about escalation as though this -- you know, escalation is the only thing we have to worry about, not -- you know, the global rule of law, not our national resolve, not kind of the, you know, the -- it's more than a strategic question. It's a question of, you know, the global ethical balance, and we're letting Putin be on the strong side and continue to escalate.
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MILBURN: I do want to say very quickly, Isa, for those of your viewers who like me -- who like me are just not shocked anymore, but numbed by the brutality and sheer cruelty of the Russian Federation, and you want to do something about it, please visit our website, www.TheMozartGroup.com and it all -- probably any questions you may have will be answered. I ask you please to donate to us, I personally can make a guarantee that whatever you donate will reach the frontline.
SOARES: And give us a sense of, you know, what do you feel needs to be done here? Because we have heard from the United States that Ukraine is winning this war. But we have seen very fierce attacks in the east of the country. And we've heard from Ukrainians acknowledging that have lost some territory, your thoughts here?
MILBURN: Yes, you know, there's no doubt about it that Ukraine will win in the end. The question is -- the question we have to ask ourselves as representatives of the west, you know, the administration itself, but those of us in the country are trying to do our best to help Ukrainians.
You know, we have to ask ourselves at what cost? I'm not suggesting for a moment that we -- you know, the Ukrainians agree to a ceasefire or back down, that would be the worst possible result from this, there can be no ceasefire until -- and the Ukrainians know this, all Russian boots are -- you know, all the Russian troops are evicted from Ukrainian soil. And when Putin is no longer in power.
Actually, both, combination of those two things. Until then, there can be no end to this war.
Why is, you know, why are the Ukrainians some not -- they're not on the back foot? And why they're having problems?
Well, for a start, they're not getting the logistics to the frontline that, that they should be. And units on the front line are going short, of pretty much every --
SOARES: Why not?
MILBURN: Well, it's combination of factors. So, I'll tell you one thing it is not. And it angers me when I hear this, it has nothing to do with corruption. It has everything to do with the fact that the -- you know, for the supply chains administered certainly by the U.S. government, they stop at the border, they stop at the Polish border.
You cannot ensure distribution of items to the units that need them in order priority if you don't oversee that supply chain.
Look, I get it, you know, the U.S. government is trying to fix this, I don't need to keep throwing darts. And we in the Mozart Group are trying to fix it working with the U.S. government.
But it is a problem. There's a problem with the fact that the Ukrainians have sustained steady flow of casualties. We're trying to fix -- to help them train guys to fight the Russians, but in a very short period of time. We're helping with combat evacuations of the wounded. We're helping with extraction of the civilians, and at least we're offering a services for that. Should we be called upon. We are a very highly professional organization consisting of former special operations, forces, operators, very seasoned --
SOARES: Colonel?
MILBURN: Yes.
SOARES: Let me -- let me ask you this, because I wanted to focus on the supply chain that you mentioned, because I think it's really important. We heard from the U.S. size in the last what, two three days who said they're getting supplies in quickly to the country in a period of 24 to 48 hours. You're saying there is a supply problem? Because obviously, the weaponry arrives in Poland, what happens after that? Where is the bottleneck here?
MILBURN: It's -- well, it gets to Lviv, which is in the western part of Ukraine, and through no bad actors, through everyone trying to do the right thing. But just the sheer weight of bureaucracy, the sheer weight of the fact that units local to Lviv want to be able to arm their guys first.
And that's not because again, they're bad actors. It's a natural proclivity to look after your own people. And no one thinks that there's only a limited amount of supplies. So, the units around Lviv are very well equipped. A lot of journalists on it.
I mean, not everyone is like Sam Kiley, right on the front lines. So, there are a lot of journalists in Lviv who are reporting the fact that they seek, Isa, the checkpoints are very well equipped.
Large, large charities -- I mean, sorry, NGOs like Samaritan's Purse, never get beyond Lviv, you know? And so, they've got fleets of trucks and resources, but they've haven't treated a single combat casualty.
The further you get to the frontline, the less you see of these resources. And that's why the Mozart Group is here. One of the reasons is to expedite that flow of logistics to the units that need it in a prioritized order. Both priority unit and by item.
SOARES: Yes, and Colonel, I'm in Lviv. Many of my colleagues of course, are out in the field. But I wish to look into that point that you're making, and we'll shall investigate and of course, we'll bring more to our viewers.
Colonel, also, share the website that you mentioned your website, where all our viewers online so they can also see it if they want to donate.
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SOARES: Colonel Andrew Milburn, thank you for all your work. Really appreciate it. It's now on air on your ad there if you want to donate to the Mozart Group. Thank you very much, Colonel. Meanwhile, besieged, outnumber but not defeated. That is the situation
for Ukrainian defenders in Mariupol, who is still holding out in the cities of Azovstal steel plant. That is the last sliver of land in Mariupol not Taken by Russian troops.
But as you're about to see, the fighting is taking horrific toll on the plant, the city as well as the people.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SOARES: Yvonne (PH) used to live on Mariupol Peace Avenue.
You want your city to remain the same as it was in your memory, he tells me. That city now lies in ruins, a shell of what it once was.
And the steel plant his family has dedicated three generations to suddenly finds itself as Mariupol's last line of defense.
Seeing your city being destroyed is horrible, he tells me, you could compare it to a relative dying in your arms and seeing him or her dying gradually, organ after organ failing, and you could do nothing.
For his colleague, Alexei (PH), it's also personal. He has lost not just friends but his mother-in-law to shelling when they first tried to flee Mariupol.
How does this make you feel? You must be so angry.
My emotions disappeared already there in Mariupol, he says, that's why there's nothing but hate.
Alexei has worked at the steel plant for 26 years. He's one of 11,000 employees who have kept the iron furnaces turning here. A major player in the metals industry, Azovstal produces four million tons of steel a year. It's metal shining brightly in Manhattan's Hudson Yards and London shard.
Now, as Russia pummels its plant, and production jolts to a halt, the CEO of the company behind Azovstal steel, tells me at least 150 of his employees have been killed and thousands are still unaccounted for.
YURIY RYZHENKOV, CEO, METINVEST: Out of the 11,000 employees of Azovstal, only about 4.5 thousand people get out of Mariupol and get in contact with us.
SOARES: This is our plant as Metapa (PH) says. He works here, says his little girl in a promotional video. Built in 1933 under Soviet rule, Azovstal was partially demolished during the Nazi occupation in the 1940s.
Now, it faces the wrath of a president who says he's de-Nazifying it, attacking the very foundation that this country helped build.
Holed up inside a thought to be around a thousand civilians hiding in shelters. Women, children and the elderly, who haven't seen sunlight in more than 50 days. And then, there's the injured in field hospitals like this one.
Russian forces continue to encircle the plant and they are not patching.
RYZHENKOV: I don't think it's the plant that he wants. I think he's about symbolism.
SOARES: A win in the port city of Mariupol will provide President Putin with a landbridge to Ukraine's Crimean Peninsula, which Russia annexed in 2014.
If fully taken, Rinat Akhmetov one of Ukraine's richest men and the main shareholder of the group behind Azovstal steel tells me via e- mail, under no circumstances will these plants operate under the Russian occupation.
Alexei agrees, telling me after what they did, never. A wall of steel defending to the bitter end, the place they have called home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SOARES: And my thanks to Yvonne and Alexi for taking the time to speak to myself and the team and of course, I'll have much more in the next hour but first, I'm going to send back to Kim in Atlanta, Kim.
BRUNHUBER: Yes, thanks so much. Interesting reporting there, Isa, appreciate that.
U.S. Marine veteran Trevor Reed is on his way home following his release from Russia in a prisoner swap with the U.S. Reed was detained for nearly three years accused by Russian officials of espionage, charges he has consistently denied.
U.S. officials say the prisoner swap took months of work and concerns over Reed's health was a driving factor. Reed was swapped for a Russian national Konstantin Yaroshenko held in U.S. custody since 2010 on drug trafficking charges, which he also denies.
And later this hour, we'll have reaction from Reed's parents after speaking with their son for the first time since his release.
Well, evidence is mounting of atrocities committed against Ukrainian civilians. We'll hear from a prosecutor in Bucha who's building a war crimes case against Russia. Stay with us.
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BRUNHUBER: United States says it has credible information that Russian soldiers executed Ukrainians who are trying to surrender. According to the U.S. have happened near Donetsk in the Donbass region of eastern Ukraine.
At the United Nations on Wednesday, the U.S. Ambassador at Large for Global Criminal Justice said the U.S. also has credible reports of civilians killed execution style, with their hands bound, bodies showing signs of torture, and horrific accounts of sexual violence against women and girls.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BETH VAN SCHAACK, U.S. AMBASSADOR AT LARGE FOR GLOBAL CRIMINAL JUSTICE: Let us be clear, those who unleashed perpetrated and ordered these crimes must be held to account and the evidence of this criminality is mounting daily.
Our simple message to Russia's military and political leadership and to the rank and file is this, the world is watching and you will be held accountable.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BRUNHUBER: The ambassador says the U.S. supports the range of investigations now underway, including the ones conducted by the International Criminal Court.
And atrocities committed in the Kyiv suburb of Bucha are a main focus of those investigations. That's where scores of civilians were found dead on the streets after Russian forces pulled out.
CNN's Anderson Cooper spoke with the local prosecutor gathering evidence for the war crimes case as well as the civilian who risked his life to document the killings. And we just want to warn you here that the images in this report are graphic.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: In Bucha, blood still stains the streets. When Russian troops pulled out, this is what they left behind on Yablunska Street. The bodies of several men shot to death, hands tied behind their backs.
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COOPER: Further down, this person was shot to death on their bicycle, and another and another and another and another and another.
What happened here?
RUSLAN KRAVCHENKO, BUCHA PROFESSOR (through translator): Local residents were killed on the street by the Russian military. They were shot and killed anyone just going out to the street around their business or going to pick up humanitarian aid.
COOPER: Ruslan Kravchenko was Bucha's prosecutor. He's now collecting evidence of war crimes.
KRAVCHENKO (through translator): People were killed at this point. There was a woman killed here. They were bodies here and there, where the road is starting left. There were people riding bicycles who are killed by the Russian military.
COOPER: Russia denies it all. They say that more than 300 bodies found in Bucha after Russian troops withdrew were staged.
As for these satellite images taken in mid-March when Russia was occupying Bucha would show bodies in the exact same locations they were later found on Yablunska Street. Russia says they too are fake. But the evidence already overwhelming continues to grow.
Prosecutors have been gathering evidence for weeks and have now revealed to us that they have photographs and videos taken over the course of several days as the killings occurred here. They say the images were captured by a person in this house on their cell phone camera.
It was through these windows he saw the slaughter. This is one of his first pictures taken on March 5th. Two bodies reportedly killed that day were visible outside his window.
On March 6th when this picture was taken, a third body is visible on the street. This video taken on March 7th, shows at least two more bodies.
Ruslan Kravchenko says these images and the data in the camera phone they were taken with provides important proof of exactly who was killed and when.
KRAVCHENKO: It will prove that it was a particular phone that the pictures were taken with and also, the time and the location that they were taken. The Russian Federation will not be able to continue saying that this was set up with the effects.
COOPER: We tracked down the man who risked his life to take these photos and video, we agreed not to show his face.
Were you scared to take pictures? I mean, if they had seen you're taking pictures, you could have been killed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Of course there was fear. But I had to prove that was them that they killed people who were civilians. I had to do something.
COOPER: Do you remember the first person killed on your street?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The first one to get killed was the man on the bicycle to the left of my house. On March 6th, there were more dead people. There was seven people dead on the street on March 6th, seven dead people. I couldn't capture all the bodies from the window. There was a wall in the way.
COOPER: What do you want to see happen to those Russians, to everybody in the chain of command?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They must be punished. There was a young guy who was bringing potatoes in a bag, maybe for his family. The stores were closed. There was no power, no heating, no water. He wanted to help and he was killed or does he deserve only punishment.
COOPER: But punishing the guilty won't be easy. There were a number of different Russian units as I understand who
were stationed here at one time or another, you need to try to identify which unit it was and what the chain of command was.
KRAVCHENKO: And it's very important to identify not only the commanders but concrete troops who committed the crimes and have them held accountable.
COOPER: Kravchenko says 10 Russian soldiers in Bucha have already been identified using eyewitness accounts along with drone footage and images like this one taken by a traffic surveillance camera not far from the Yablunska Street.
But whether he can learn the identities of the Russian stationed on Yablunska Street is unclear. The man killed on March 5th on his bike was 68-year-old Vladimir (PH) Brovchenko his wife Svitlana lives not far away. They were married for 45 years, and have two kids and three grandchildren.
SVITLANA BROVCHENKO, HUSBAND WAS KILLED IN BUCHA (through translator): We told him not to go to work because there were tanks on Yablunska Street. We told him not to go. He said no, I have to go to work. I have work to do.
I didn't know what to tell you. It's awful. It's awful.
COOPER: It is all so awful. The bicycle her husband road is still on Yablunska Street, near the spot where he died. She doesn't want it back. The horror of what happened is just too terrible to face.
Anderson Cooper, CNN, Bucha, Ukraine.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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BRUNHUBER: Welcome back. We're waiting for the homecoming of American veteran Trevor Reed after his release from a Russian prison.
[00:34:13]
His parents have spoken with him at least twice since his release. Watching the footage of the prisoner swap with Russia, Reed's parents noted their son looked terrible.
CNN's Matthew Chance has more on how the exchange went down.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is the moment Trevor Reed, looking frail, took his first steps towards freedom. Shown on Russian television being escorted by masked security guards onto a waiting plane. Amid fraught U.S.-Russia relations, this is an unexpected win.
NED PRICE, U.S. STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESPERSON: This is a good day for the United States. It also speaks to President Biden's commitment and this entire administration's commitment to do everything we can to secure the release of Americans that are held hostage.
CHANCE: Trevor Reed is a former U.S. Marine, imprisoned for supposedly endangering the life of Russian police. Prosecutors said he assaulted an officer after a night of heavy drinking.
When he was sentenced by a Moscow court to a harsh nine years, his shocked Russian girlfriend broke down.
"This is the reputation of Russia," she screamed, before being escorted out.
Now, from Texas, Reed's parents can finally express their relief, but also, their continuing concern.
JOEY REED, TREVOR REED'S FATHER: The biggest issue is his health. If you've seen any of the videos today of him getting out of the FSB van to get into the FSB jet --
PAULA REED, TREVOR REED'S MOTHER: He looks terrible to us. As his parents, we know he does not look well. He's very thin.
J. REED: He was walking strange. It looked like they had to help him get up in the airplane.
P. REED: So I understand there are some medical practitioners with him on the plane.
CHANCE: Of course, Trevor Reed's freedom wasn't for free. This is the dramatic moment broadcast on Russian television when the America was swapped for a Russian convict, held in a U.S. jail.
You see Reed on the left, walking towards the U.S. plane.
Crossing back into Russian hands, Konstantin Yaroshenko, sentenced to 20 years in the U.S. for conspiracy to smuggle drugs. His conviction in 2011 and subsequent treatment has been a major thorn in U.S.- Russian ties.
Two years ago, amid talk of a swap, CNN spoke to Yaroshenko in an exclusive interview from his U.S. federal prison. And he accused U.S. authorities of illegally abducting him, then torturing him in custody, allegations U.S. officials deny.
"I can talk about gross violations of fundamental laws, international rights, and what the Americans did in my case regarding extradition," he tells me. "There was no extradition. Do you understand? These are very serious things. I have not violated a single law. I'm not some kind of soulless creature. I'm not an animal that can be kidnapped, beaten, tortured and then immediately transported to the United States," Yaroshenko said.
He also told me he believed he was a pawn in a political game between Washington and Moscow. A game that has, for him and for Trevor Reed, has finally come to an end. Matthew Chance, CNN, London.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BRUNHUBER: And Trevor Reed's release as another American detained in Russia asking why he's been, quote, "left behind."
In a statement, Paul Whelan writes that, while he's pleased Trevor is home with his family, "why hasn't more been done to secure" his release.
The former U.S. Marine was convicted on espionage charges in Moscow and is serving a 16-year prison sentence. The Biden administration says it will continue to work for Whelan's release, as well as that of detained WNBA player Britney Griner.
Well, it's no surprise Russia is using hackers in its war on Ukraine, but what may be surprising is how closely they're coordinating with the military. We'll have new details of their operations coming up next. Stay with us.
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[00:42:17]
BRUNHUBER: Russian hackers have played a bigger part in the Ukraine invasion than previously thought. That's according to a new report from Microsoft.
They found many cyberattacks were coordinated with Russian military strikes. As an example, hackers hit this TV station March 1, the same day a Russian missile took out the station's tower.
Microsoft says hackers from at least six different Kremlin-linked groups have conducted nearly 240 operations against Ukrainian targets, and they have been collecting intelligence for months before February's invasion.
Microsoft's report is the most comprehensive record yet of hacking activity related to the war and gives a broader understanding of Russia's cyber capabilities.
For more on this, let's bring in Herbert Lin, a cyber policy and security fellow at Stanford University and the author of "Cyber Threats and Nuclear Weapons."
Thank you so much for being here with us. So according to that report, the cyberattacks on Ukraine were were more subtle, maybe, than the huge catastrophic attacks to cripple the power grids and telecommunications in Ukraine that many may have predicted and expected.
So tell us a bit more about what we're learning about how these cyberattacks were used and what effect it may have had on the battlefield. HERBERT LIN, CYBER POLICY AND SECURITY FELLOW, STANFORD UNIVERSITY:
Well, what we know is that, from the Microsoft report, that there were a number of -- many cyberattacks undertaken, still fewer than we would have expected in -- at the beginning before all of this started. And that some of them coincided with other military operations.
Now, whether in the Microsoft report itself says that those -- it's not clear whether those were actually coordinated or -- with the cyberattacks coordinated with the attacks on the ground or whether they were just coincidentally temporarily allied, you know, happening at the same time. But -- so there is that about that.
But it's certainly true that some cyberattacks happened around the same times as the grand operations did. Maybe does not matter very much, whether they were explicitly correlated or not.
BRUNHUBER: Yes. And if you are sort of softening the ground and sort of trying to affect the resistance against missile attacks and so on, I mean, this could really affect a country's ability to defend itself. LIN: That's right. And so, for example, you can -- you can imagine using the cyberattacks against government institutions to reduce public confidence in the operation of the Ukrainian government, as one example. Or you could interfere with public broadcasts and the like.
[00:45:12]
The report says that the -- that these attacks were largely intended to degrade and disrupt sort of normal functioning, to screw up the functioning of economic and government, and political, and military institutions.
BRUNHUBER: Yes, but the Ukrainian resistance to these cyberattacks, just like the resistance on the battlefield, has been perhaps more -- more robust than the Russians may have expected.
But looking beyond the battlefield, I mean, hackers have tried to get into the accounts of European officials, who were involved in managing the Ukrainian refugee crisis. They targeted charities, aid organizations, you know, things that could impact the ongoing efforts to help civilians in Ukraine, as well.
LIN: That's right, and that's not -- that's not entirely surprising. If you're the Russians right now, what you're trying to do is make the Ukrainian people suffer, and that's another way of increasing their suffering, is targeting the organizations that are trying to help the refugees and so on. So that's entirely consistent.
BRUNHUBER: What about for us, you know, people here in America? I mean, the warning going into the war was that we, the West, had to be prepared for major cyberattacks by Russia and by organizations, you know, sponsored or affiliated with the Kremlin. And there were, you know, further fears that during the war, after the widening of sanctions against Russia.
But we haven't really seen any of these large-scale attacks, at least none of the kinds, you know, affecting critical infrastructure and so far, at least not that I'm aware of. What -- why do you think that is? And do you think that could change?
LIN: Well, I think that the answer is we haven't seen them yet, and that's -- that's certainly true.
Remember, we're just in the first stage of the war, and the war has -- was expected to be -- I mean, many people in the West, and probably the Russians themselves, expected this to be a cakewalk.
And now that it's not turning into -- that its turned into something very much other than a cakewalk here, they are -- it's entirely possible that the Russians might change tactics and find ways of striking at who they believe are their tormentors, which is right now the various Western countries that are supplying arms and other support to Ukraine.
So, it seems to me that the fact that the ground offensive in Ukraine isn't going as well as they -- as it could for the Russians, just should make us more wary of what might happen to us.
BRUNHUBER: Yes. Is it possible, though, that they're also concerned that by -- by sort of, you know, escalating into a cyber war with a NATO country, that they could trigger a conventional military's response from NATO and escalating the whole crisis?
LIN: Well, that's -- that's an interesting question, whether or not a cyber-only attack on the West would trigger conventional military operations against -- against Russia. I suspect not. I think what == But, I don't know. I think, in fact, at this point, nobody really knows what the United States or the West would do, outside of, you know, a very small group of circles. Nobody will want to tell the Russians explicitly, if you do a cyberattack, we're going to attack you in this way. Nobody wants to say that right now.
As you say, we are still in, unfortunately, the early days of what could be a very lengthy conflict. Thank you for your expertise, really appreciate it. Herbert Lin.
LIN: Thank you for having me.
BRUNHUBER: All right. Still to come, long lines in Beijing, as millions get tested to prevent a Shanghai-like lockdown. We'll look at how China is scrambling to implement its zero-COVID policy, next. Stay with us.
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BRUNHUBER: Authorities in Beijing are scrambling to detect new COVID cases, and avert a major outbreak. Just hours ago, they announced the closures of some schools and major hospitals, with almost no advanced warning. Entertainment venues are closing, as well.
More neighborhoods are now considered high-risk and are being sealed. Now, while it's not quite the lockdown Shanghai has been facing, Beijing residents fear they're not far behind. CNN's David Culver has our report.
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DAVID CULVER, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR (voice-over): The calm before the storm. Beijing residents are stocking up, bracing themselves for a potential onslaught of COVID cases.
Beijing officials calling the matter urgent and grim, ordering nearly 20 million people to get tested three times this week alone. CNN is in the capital city.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But it doesn't seem to affect daily life. These office workers take a quick test at lunchtime, and back to work, they seem calm and prepared.
CULVER: But Beijing's preparation is, in part, due to Shanghai officials' disastrous response to an outbreak there. The horror stories from the financial hub, a shock to many across China.
Officials in the capital determined to avoid the embarrassment of botching President Xi Jinping's zero-COVID strategy, especially in the city where he lives.
STEVEN JIANG, CNN BEIJING BUREAU CHIEF: You are seeing, at least on the surface, a more orderly and kind of organized kind of effort. And even overstocking supermarkets, which are still open.
CULVER: Open for now. Residents know how quickly it can all change. Some Beijing communities already in lockdown. People sealed in, a taste of what life is like for most in Shanghai.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (SCREAMING)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SCREAMING)
CULVER: Nearly one month of hard lockdown, and many Shanghai residents are at a breaking point.
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Feelings of being caged in amplified when the city recently began installing fences like these to keep people from leaving their apartment buildings. And on the streets, more and more barricades going up.
Medical resources, stretched. These Shanghai hospital workers refusing to help a desperate mother.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
CULVER: CNN also living through the Shanghai lockdown. Outside my door, only a paper seal. A COVID guard sits on watch in my compound. Much like the rest of the city, exhausted by the extreme containment efforts.
Here, the white hazmat suit is the new uniform of authority: the enforcers. So much so that this compound even using it as a scarecrow to keep people in check.
Since 2020, Chinese authorities have relentlessly turned to harsh lockdowns in hopes of containing COVID. Right now, people in more than two dozen cities across China are living in full or partial lockdowns.
Some border cities have been in months-long lockdowns, with outsiders barely paying attention.
In Shanghai, demand for government quarantine space is rising with the case count. Exhibition centers, gyms, classrooms, entire office buildings, all taken over to isolate positive cases and close contacts.
And those trapped in their homes, banging pots to vent their anger. One woman heard screaming --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
CULVER: -- "Give me back my freedom."
David Culver, CNN, Shanghai.
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BRUNHUBER: I'm Kim Brunhuber at CNN Center in Atlanta. And I'll be back with more news right after this. Please do stay with us.
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