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Ukraine Says, Operation Planned to Get Civilians out of Mariupol Plant; CNN Reports, U.S. Sees Evidence of Russian Progress in Eastern Ukraine; Ukraine Claims It Recaptured Northeastern Town Near Kharkiv. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired April 29, 2022 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[10:00:02]

KRISTIN FISHER, CNN SPACE AND DEFENSE CORRESPONDENT: And, Bianna, the thing that Larry Connor says surprised him the most was just how difficult it was to actually do all that research in micro-gravity despite all the mission -- that they had professional NASA astronauts onboard, Bianna. He called a humbling experience.

BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: And grateful for some toilet diplomacy too. Who knew there was such a thing? Kristin Fisher, thank you.

FISHER: You bet.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: A very good Friday morning to you. I'm Jim Sciutto reporting from Lviv, in Western Ukraine.

GOLODRYGA: And I'm Bianna Golodryga in New York.

Right now, frustrations are mounting as Russia blocks Ukraine's latest efforts to get hundreds of civilians out of a steel plant in Mariupol. This is the third or fourth time we've seen these attempts fail. The city official says that Russians have closed off an area near that complex.

Now, it comes as Mariupol's mayor says more than 600 people were injured in a Russian bombing that struck a makeshift hospital facility inside the steel plant complex.

SCIUTTO: And they're there trying to save their lives because Russia is bombing the rest of their home city.

In the east, U.S. and NATO officials acknowledge Russian forces are making some progress, learning, I'm told, some lessons from their failed offensive in the northern part of this country, around the capital, Kyiv. That said, Ukrainian forces doing their best to push back, a fuel depot attacked, set on fire in part of the Donetsk region controlled by Russian-backed forces, that in the east.

And Ukrainian officials say a town near Kharkiv in the northeast has now been recaptured from the Russians. This is the give and the take of this battlefield.

All of this as we are learning of another American casualty in this war, a 22-year-old who was fighting alongside Ukrainian forces, part of that international legion, killed in action.

We're going to have more on his case, picture there, in just a moment.

Let's begin with Nick Paton Walsh. He's in Eastern Ukraine. So, Nick, we've been following this Mariupol attempted evacuation for some time. Now, in the midst of all that, Russia chooses to bomb the heck out of the place. What's happening? Is there any safe way out for those people?

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN INTERNATIONAL SECURITY EDITOR: I mean, Jim, this is really more of the same it seems, sadly, doesn't it? But each time these moments of hope when there seems to be some plan floated to get those children and injured caught under that steel plant out, something, of course, gets in the way.

Now, there were hopes, and that was embodied in a statement from Ukrainian president's office, of some unspecified plan to get people out, that maybe the trips done by the U.N. Secretary-General Antonio Guterres to Moscow, where he met Vladimir Putin, and then, of course, to Kyiv, where he met his Ukrainian counterpart, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, that that may have yielded some sort of agreement that could really bring that to light.

But you have to cast doubt as to how serious Russia would have been about any promises made if it went then last night to bomb Kyiv when Antonio Guterres, the U.N. secretary-general, was actually there.

Still, today, those hopes there vaguely, but now Ukrainian officials suggesting that to the north of Azovstal steel plant in the Veselka Park (ph), there has been a Russian bid to block access, and also too, now, the mayor of Mariupol saying now that the number of injured has gone up to 600. From the bombings that we've seen over the last 24, 48 hours, 50 strikes according to some Ukrainian officials, figures we can't verify. But an intensification there and, of course, the bid to target shows sheltering in the last known fortified stronghold they can find there.

Let me just show here what a local commander had to say about the situation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAJOR SERHIY VOLYNA, COMMANDER, UKRAINE'S 36TH SEPARATE MARINE BRIGADE: I don't know the details. I know that the mission has arrived in Zaporizhzhia and that they are going to try and mount a rescue operation.

These are hundreds of people, and they have dozens of children with them. The youngest is four months old.

Yesterday was the heaviest strike on a direcft hit on the field hospital that is situated inside Azovstal steel plant. And the operating theater was hit directly. And all the surgical equipment, everything that is necessary to perform surgery has been destroyed. So, right now, we cannot treat our wounded.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALSH: Now, obviously, Jim, many were talking about the resolution of what's happening in Mariupol, ghastly as it is, those caught there being strategically important because it might free up Russian forces to move elsewhere in the country. And I have to say, it does seem quite likely that the relocation is already under way and we're feeling that possibly here in the other part of the south, on the other side of the Dnipro River, south of where I'm standing here, in Kryvyi Rih.

But the fate of those left behind in Mariupol, so much attention rightly so about whether something possibly that should be so easy on the humanitarian grounds could possibly happen today, Jim.

[10:05:09]

SCIUTTO: No question. And as you mentioned, the military effect, as well, those forces freed up, they can apply more pressure to Ukrainian forces already fighting on three fronts in the east.

Nick Paton Walsh, thank you so much.

GOLODRYGA: Well, as Jim mentioned, an American citizen has died fighting Ukrainian forces in Ukraine. 22-year-old Willy Joseph Cancel was working for a private military contracting company when he was killed on Monday.

SCIUTTO: There are dozens of Americans fighting here, some very quietly, a lot of them former service members.

CNN's Barbara Starr joins us now from the Pentagon. And, Barbara, I've met some of these people who come here. They say they feel that this is their cause as well as the Ukrainians' cause. What more do we know about Cancel's case?

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, this young former Marine, just 22 years old, apparently entered Ukraine last month to work for a contractor company that recruited him. He'd been working as a corrections officer in Tennessee, according to his family, felt very strongly that he wanted to join the fight in Ukraine and went there. And, of course, one of the most difficult questions right now at this hour is the effort to recover the remains and return him home to his family.

I have to tell you the Biden administration, especially here at the Pentagon, they are continuing to urge Americans to stay away from the fighting in Ukraine. As much as so many of these veterans have very heartfelt views about wanting to join the fight, the Pentagon reminding them it is just very dangerous.

Let's listen for a minute to what the Pentagon press secretary, John Kirby, had to say earlier this morning on New Day.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN KIRBY, PENTAGON PRESS SECRETARY: He's a husband with a little baby, seven-month-old, and that's just devastating news for anybody.

But, look, we continue to urge Americans not to go to Ukraine. This is an active war zone. This is not the place to be traveling to. I understand his altruistic motives, I do and I respect that. But this is not the place for Americans to go. If you want to support Ukraine, there are any number of other ways to do this in a safe, effective way, such as donating to the Red Cross. This is not the place to be.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

STARR: And as you point out, so many American military veterans have gone, perhaps a small number, but certainly have gone to join the fight. There are others who are there who are also trying to help train Ukrainian fighters so they can be more effective on those frontlines. Jim, Bianna?

GOLODRYGA: Yes. And, Barbara, it's not just Americans who are going out to help Ukrainians, as Jim said, people from around the world. A British national was killed in Ukraine just yesterday and I know one is missing currently.

You're also getting information that NATO had to scramble fighter jets this week. What more can you tell us about that?

STARR: Well, we've all, just in the press corps a short time ago, received a statement from NATO's allied air command that was a bit surprising. They said that since Tuesday, they have had to scramble fighter jets multiple times both over the Baltic and the Black Sea region because of unidentified aircraft approaching.

Now, these unidentified aircraft, they say, are Russians, and the typical Russian aircraft profile is to not announce themselves, not to signal with any transponders, just to fly with no flight plan.

And what NATO says, and I want to get it exactly right for everybody, that since Tuesday, they've scrambled fighter jets from Poland, Denmark, France, Spain, Romania, and the U.K., both over the Baltic and the Black Sea when these Russian aircraft have approached.

There's no indication at this point any U.S. aircraft scrambled and no indication that the Russians entered NATO, our allied airspace.

But it's worth pointing out that we have not seen these kinds of flight paths for some weeks. We've asked NATO about it frequently, and they say they have not seen the Russians really flying this way, and now apparently they have.

SCIUTTO: Yes. That's a big -- it's a big deal because Russian officials, including the president, have described this as a conflict with NATO. So, to see Russian aircraft testing, in effect, NATO response times and so on in airspace, listen, it presents dangers too for a potential escalation.

Barbara Starr at the Pentagon, thanks so much.

GOLODRYGA: Thanks, Barbara.

Well, this morning, new reporting from the Wall Street Journal that Germany is ready to stop buying Russian oil. Berlin had been one of the main opponents of sanctioning the European Union's energy trade with Moscow, but this move now clears the way for an E.U. ban.

[10:10:01]

SCIUTTO: Listen, it's a big deal, all the steps regarding natural gas and oil.

CNN Business Anchor and Editor at Large Richard Quest joins us now. I mean, big question here is Germany getting on board, this would mean E.U.-wide. What dent does this put in Russia's exports as a whole? What dent would it put in and the, crucially, really, how quickly can it happen?

RICHARD QUEST, CNM BUSINESS EDITOR AT LARGE: Well, the devil's in the detail here. And what Germany is saying is, yes, we can take an embargo on oil because Germany now saying that it's only using 12 percent of its oil comes from Russia.

So, there's -- in the same way that the E.U. went first for coal, now it's going for oil, it looks as if there can be agreement on oil, which would make a dent, yes, absolutely, several billion a year, but the big Russian export, of course, is gas. And there, Germany is nowhere near able to turn the gas tap off any more than Austria or Hungary or Italy is.

So, although they're making measures to that end, and, yes, it will be seen as a major step, the removal of -- we have to be careful, we're talking here about Russian oil and gas is still to follow.

GOLODRYGA: It's an important point, Richard, because for our audience to understand, since the war began, Russia has exported some $66 billion worth of fossil fuels, that includes coal, that includes oil, and obviously natural gas, the majority of that going to European countries. Richard Quest, thank you.

SCIUTTO: Well, President Biden is asking Congress to ramp up pressure specifically now on Russian oligarchs, both as punishment for their ties to Kremlin, part of a larger strategy as well, to squeeze the Russian economy, perhaps persuade Vladimir Putin that the cost of this war are too high. We haven't seen that yet but that's the intention of all this.

GOLODRYGA: CNN's Chris Cillizza joins us now.

So, sanctions on these oligarchs began almost immediately after the war started, haven't seen much of an impact on what Vladimir Putin is doing with regards to the war. But talk about this new measure and this new proposal.

CHRIS CHILLIZZA, CNN POLITICS REPORTER: Yes, Bianna. So, let's talk about where we are and where the Biden administration wants to go. First note, this something Joe Biden talked about in his state of the union speech. This is a priority to target these Russian oligarchs.

Okay. So, so far, just so far, 140-plus oligarchs, 400 Russian government officials, have been sanctioned, hundreds of millions frozen in U.S. banks, vessels and aircraft worth $1 billion have been seized.

Now, the most sort of high-profile seizure, this happened in Spain a few weeks ago, Viktor Vekselberg, a Russian oligarch, this is his -- you're looking at Tango, 200-plus-foot yacht, $90 million cost. This is -- this is the major seizure that we've seen to date.

Now, the E.U. obviously is also involved in the sanction process, and they've gone much broader, $30 billion. Let's see if I've got the circling capabilities. I think I did. Yes, here we go, $30 billion in assets, $7 billion in boat, helicopters, real estate, art, so very broad. This has targeted Vladimir Putin's daughters as well as Kremlin Spokesman Dmitry Peskov.

Now, you said, what are we going to do now? Okay, the new proposal, there's a bunch in here, let's just go through it. First of all, streamline authority to seize assets, it just makes it easier. The process is a little bit cumbersome. It makes it a little bit easier for the government to do it.

This is important. Allow -- I keep getting off of this -- allow proceeds of forfeited assets to flow to Ukraine. That's really important, that this money can go back to Ukraine to help in their war effort.

Now, there's also this. It makes it easier for the Justice Department to add sanctions evasion, active attempts to evade these sanctions, as a type of criminal racketeering that the Justice Department can prosecute. The other thing is it expands the time limit on pursuing money laundering investigations. It gives them a broader, wider window.

So, there's a lot here, but to your point, to-date, these sanctions haven't hurt as much as maybe the White House had hoped.

SCIUTTO: Part of these sanctions are to take that -- not just to freeze that money but to sell it and then use it, is that right?

CILLIZZA: That's exactly right, Jim?

SCIUTTO: For help for the Ukrainians? CILLIZZA: Just to add to that, it's to allow places other than the Department of Justice to reallocate that money, it's to broaden that -- who can do that, again, streamlining the process in hopes of getting that money to Ukraine.

SCIUTTO: Fair enough. If it looks nice, makes people feel good to see those yachts seized, the idea is to take that money and then actually use it.

So, Roman Abramovich, owner of Chelsea Football Club, friend of Putin at times, what's going to happen to him?

CILLIZZA: Okay. Roman Abramovich is maybe the most high-profile, the person people know the most in terms of Russian oligarchs largely because of Chelsea.

[10:15:01]

The White House has refused to comment on its recent support leaving Abramovich off the sanctions list. So, Abramovich has not, in fact, been sanctioned.

Now, there's a bunch of reasons potentially for that, but one of the big ones is this. This is a steel mill in Colorado that Roman Abramovisch owns a piece of, a large piece. The Wall Street Journal reported back in March, by the way, that Abramovich, that Ukraine wanted to hold off sanctioning Abramovich because he might acts as a go-between between Russia and the United States. Russia and Ukraine haven't seen it yet.

But I want to focus on this. Drew Griffin reported this. The reluctance to sanction Abramovich, it may also have something to do with this plant in Pueblo, Colorado. It's a massive steel mill that employs 1,200 Americans.

Now, Abramovich made -- wait for this -- $522 million in dividends from the company last year. There are accusations, accusations that it's supplying steel to the Russian military. The company, Evraz North America, denies those accusations. But you can imagine, currently, given what we heard about the GDP yesterday, given what we know about the CPI, job losses in the United States, a major factor in the Biden administration's calculus.

So, even though Abramovich is the guy that most people associate when you think of Russian oligarchs, he has not been sanctioned yet for those reasons, potentially as liaison between Russia and Ukraine, we haven't seen it yet, and because of this odd situation in Colorado that he owns a big stake in a steel mill that is rumored to potentially be supplying Russia with steel. So, there's a lot of entanglements here. Jim and Bianna?

SCIUTTO: Yes. Chris Cillizza, thanks so much.

CILLIZZA: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Coming up next, on the frontlines of this war, a volunteer medic putting her life on the line virtually every day to try to help her country, she joins me live from Odessa to hear what's happening there in the south that has seen so many attacks in recent days.

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SCIUTTO: One consistent factor of this war has been that civilians are not just caught in the crossfire, they are the target of Russian fire. We see that in so many cities across the country and not just from the air, artillery and missiles, but from soldiers on the ground. That's what we've witnessed in places with names like Bucha and Borodyanka. On the frontlines, as well, are the people treating those victims, both civilian and military.

Joining us to discuss is Tata Marharian. She's a paramedic serving in the Ukrainian Volunteer Medical Battalion. You may recognize her because we've spoken to her a number of times on this broadcast throughout this war. Tata, it's good to have you back.

You were just released from the hospital, treated for dehydration and exhaustion. I think it's something that people forget. There's an enormous strain on health care workers like yourself. So, my first question to you is how are you doing? How are you recovering?

TATA MARHARIAN, MEMBER, UKRAINIAN VOLUNTEER MEDICAL BATTALION: I'm okay, thank you. I couldn't complain, really. This is ridiculous of me to complain about my wellbeing while people in my country are going through way worse. But, yes, I'm perfectly fine, I'm treated, I'm good, I'm ready to continue my service.

SCIUTTO: I know you're going to go back to the field, back to the front lines literally of this, deploying this weekend. Can you tell us what keeps you going? What keeps you going through all this given what you've seen and what you've suffered yourself? MARHARIAN: First of all, as you know, this enemy is very, very

strong. It is tough being in a field with an enemy like this. And this is our responsibility, like the common responsibility to put every single drop of our strength in resisting this aggression.

So, I really have no other choice, and I never second -- I don't second -- what is the right term -- I don't doubt the decision to go and fight again, take part as a volunteer medic, of course. So, we should do everything in our power, and there's really no -- no other choice to have.

SCIUTTO: Yes. Well, it's inspiring to see your strength.

You've studied crimes against humanity as a student, international law. Now you're visiting places where there's evidence of war crimes. You've gone to places like Bucha. When you see what you have seen, do you have any doubt that you've witnessed the effects of war crimes in this country?

MARHARIAN: It is -- I go through very interesting phase in my career, I would say, because, on one hand, I am very enthusiastic for international law. I did study international humanitarian law. I was very passionate about a law on conflicts.

On the other hand, seeing the things that I'm seeing right now, civilians being killed, being targeted, specifically houses of peaceful people being targeted, all of these things, it does make you question of does this all work at all.

[10:25:08]

Like these laws that have been studying for so long and the competitions that I did arguing for in favor of the international humanitarian law. Sometimes I just have a question was this even worth it? Maybe it would be better for me to just study military, just be a combat medic, maybe this would be the right thing to do.

But then, honestly, what gives me power, what brings me back to having faith in humanity and our community is seeing the support that we have from people. And I just -- a huge inspiration for me is Professor Harold Koh who always advocates in favor of international law. Whenever I have a doubt, whenever I feel down, I try to go back to the roots of inspiration, the source of inspiration that I have, and many, many wonderful people who have given me strength.

SCIUTTO: Let me ask you this, Tata, because as I've witnessed this war for weeks, I'm just amazed at the resolve of the Ukrainian people, right, in the face of genuine suffering. And, by the way, a Russian military campaign which appears to have the intent, the explicit goal to make people suffer and give up and leave their homes, how -- do you witness any of that resolve fading as you watch this go on?

MARHARIAN: You see people coming back actually a lot to Ukraine. It's been like a week since Kyiv was relatively safe and many people returned. I'm not sure whether this is good or bad because the tendency that I see is that when people return to their homes and there's a lot of civilians in one -- in one spot or something, suddenly, all of a sudden, this area gets targeted by Russian rockets. So, maybe it's bad that they come back or it's good because they're dedicated to protecting their home in any way possible, like volunteering, delivering food to military people. So, I really can't tell -- maybe it's good and bad, you know, 50/50. I can't tell.

SCIUTTO: Well, Tata, we're glad you're safe --

MARHARIAN: Sorry, the connection's a bit off --

SCIUTTO: It is. Well, it's inspiring the world. And your commitment is inspiring the world. We know you're going right back in it. So, please do stay safe and thank you.

MARHARIAN: Thank you.

GOLODRYGA: Just remarkable to hear her say that she struggles, asking herself is it worth it, and then being inspired by those around her.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

GOLODRYGA: Well, up next, DeSantis takes on Disney. Florida officials vowing the taxpayers won't be on the hook. The latest on the standoff, coming up.

And what those schools need to help handle the surge in students in Poland dealing with the surge in refugees. That's still ahead.

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