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Kremlin Behind Attack on Russian Anti-War Journalist?; Russia Bombs Kyiv. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired April 29, 2022 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:27]

ANA CABRERA, CNN HOST: Hello, and thanks for being with us on this Friday. I'm Ana Cabrera in New York.

A capital attack, a critical evacuation, and a military recalibration. We're following all the headlines in this Ukraine crisis.

Let's start in Kyiv. Several people were hurt and at least one person was killed in a Russian missile attack Thursday night. It happened at the same time the U.N. secretary-general was visiting that city. Now President Zelenskyy is calling for a powerful response.

In Mariupol, a commander inside the Azovstal steel plant is calling the situation there beyond a humanitarian catastrophe. Hundreds of people, including dozens of children, are still trapped, but a plan to get them out today isn't working. Russians are reportedly blocking the escape route; 50 airstrikes have hit that complex in just the last 24 hours.

In the east, there are signs Russia is trying to fix the problems that have plagued its military effectiveness. The Russians are focusing on moving troops, resupplying and improving coordination, all while Ukraine claims its fighters have recaptured a town these evacuees fled. And that town is near Kharkiv in the Northeast.

And nine weeks into this invasion, Vladimir Putin is still being offered a seat at the upcoming G20 summit. He has now accepted that invitation. Ukraine's President Zelenskyy is reportedly invited as well. And now the White House is weighing how it will approach those high-level talks.

Let's get right to our teams on the ground in Ukraine. Let's begin with Nick Paton Walsh near the front line in Central Ukraine.

And, Nick, you're following the situation that just continues to become more and more dire in Mariupol. What's the latest? NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL SECURITY EDITOR: I mean,

certainly those children and the remaining fighters, possibly as many as 500, according to the latest information we have, are holed up in the steel factory, because, frankly, it is the safest place and still surrounded.

Now, there had been a hope today from a statement by the Ukrainian president's office of another attempt to establish a humanitarian corridor to get civilians at least out. We had no specifics with that statement. And it does appear today as though that has come to nothing.

It is most likely because of other reports we're hearing that, in fact, the Russians have blocked the -- one of the exit routes, one of the access routes to Azovstal steel plant through a park through its north called Veselka.

Now, it's -- all that information, we can't independently verify. But it fits into a pattern we have seen here where humanitarian corridors are announced and then never actually materialize. This particular one, though, had higher hopes behind it, possibly because of the efforts of U.N. Secretary-General Antonio Guterres, who went to see Vladimir Putin and then to Kyiv to see Volodymyr Zelenskyy.

But the seriousness, frankly, in which he probably could have taken the Kremlin's promises of assistance here, if indeed there were any behind closed doors, were probably quashed by the missiles, five of them that were in fact fired by Russia at Kyiv at the very time he was in Ukraine's capital city, all of that, though, no comfort for those inside Mariupol still in that small pocket still held by Ukrainians.

Here's how one local commander described the situation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAJ. SERHIY VOLYNA, COMMANDER, UKRAINIAN 36TH SEPARATE MARINE BRIGADE (through translator): Situation is critical. It's beyond a humanitarian catastrophe. These are hundreds of people. And they have dozens of children with them. The youngest is 4 months old.

We cannot tell you for sure how long we can hold on for. We -- that all depends on the enemy movements and also on luck.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALSH: I mean, frankly, it's impossible to imagine any situation where this basic humanitarian task can't be solved by an army like Russia's -- its P.R. essentially says it tries to be humane.

But its practice on the ground has been utterly barbaric from the start of this war, unprovoked, that they started themselves -- Ana.

CABRERA: It's so hard -- it's so hard to grasp just how horrific this is.

Please stand by, Nick. Matt Rivers, you are there in Kyiv, where we have learned yesterday's strike there killed at least one person?

MATT RIVERS, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's exactly right.

And this is something that CNN witnessed firsthand when authorities made that discovery, because, yesterday, we were hearing from Ukrainian authorities, and they were stressing the fact that no one had been killed in these strikes. It happened around 24 hours ago now, maybe slightly less than that at this point.

[13:05:02]

And we were told initially there were 11 people injured, something like that. But it was this morning, as rescuers continued to go through the rubble of a residential apartment complex, that they did discover the body of one 54-year-old woman, a journalist, actually, who was living here in Kyiv, working for a radio station in Kyiv.

She had recently just come back to her home after staying elsewhere, thinking that it was safe enough to return home. But during this war, in which Russia randomly, sporadically sends cruise missiles around the country, there really is no actual safe place.

Russia's Defense Ministry saying that they were aiming for a factory in this central district of Kyiv that is the top producer here in Ukraine of air-to-air guided missiles, as well as aircraft parts. We know that there was damage done to that factory, but the vast majority of damage from the strikes were to this apartment complex.

Here is what one Ukrainian American fighter here in Ukraine saw.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIRO POPOVICH, U.S. CITIZEN FIGHTING IN UKRAINE: One building was completely on fire. Like, the whole -- you can see the whole story is on fire, and the story above it is on fire.

And the building next to it, the high-rise apartment building, the chunk of it is gone up to four floors. First four floors, like, have gone. It looked really gruesome.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

RIVERS: And so yet another example of Russia's military attacking and killing civilians, Ana.

CABRERA: Matt Rivers and Nick Paton Walsh, thank you both.

And now to Russia's military. U.S. officials say they have seen some evidence of improvement in its ability to combine air and ground operations in Ukraine.

CNN's Oren Liebermann is at the Pentagon for us.

So, Oren, is the assessment that Russia has fixed its early missteps?

OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: I would say the U.S. assesses this is a Russian attempt to fix its early missteps, which included large problems with logistics and sustainment.

Remember, if you take a look at this map here, in the north area, as they attempted to come towards Kyiv, Russian forces very quickly outran their own supply lines, and that forced them basically to halt their advance, as well as the Ukrainian resistance that they met at every point along that advance.

So, the Russians, the U.S. assesses, have figured -- figured out these problems, and now they're trying to solve some of them as they switch their offensive from around pretty much the entire country to focusing on Southern and Eastern Ukraine.

Now, the U.S. says they are still having -- or, rather, the Pentagon -- the Pentagon says they're still having many of the same issues in logistics and sustainment. Crucially, they're also having the same issues with morale. That's one of the hardest problems to solve and a critical issue when you're trying to move many forces on the ground.

What is the morale of those forces? The U.S. assesses they are still suffering very greatly in the morale department.

CABRERA: So there's the logistics issue. There's the morale issue. There's also a communications issue that they're trying to fix. How's that?

LIEBERMANN: This is what the U.S. is watching very carefully. Take a look.

And this is where the U.S. and, of course, Russia are focusing, on South and East Ukraine. Part of the issue -- or part of the fix that they have had is essentially building or establishing command-and- control centers in Western Russia to try to coordinate better this attack on South and East Ukraine.

A lot of this is simply easier because of the much smaller distances involved. This is right on Russia's border. So, communications, logistics, sustainment are easier. And they're trying to use that to their advantage, how close they are to their own country in conducting this attack on Eastern Ukraine.

But the U.S. sees they're still suffering many of the same problems even this close there. They have made some progress. But a senior defense official called it slow and uneven, intermittent. They're advancing, at best, a few kilometers here and there. But they're attacking from so many different directions. They still have a lot of their force left.

This is something the U.S. is watching very closely, as Ukraine continues to put up a resistance.

CABRERA: At last check, I think that reporting was some 15,000 Russian soldiers may have been killed so far in this invasion. So, when it comes to manpower, do we know how many Russian boots are

on the ground right now?

LIEBERMANN: That was an estimate we heard from the U.K. secretary of defense, Ben Wallace.

It's one of the hardest numbers to know. How many Russian killed in action have there been to this point. And if -- look, if the number is 15,000, that means that we could be talking about high 20,000s, 30,000 Russian wounded in action. That's simply sort of traditional battlefield math.

In terms of a specific number of troops on the ground, it's a very difficult number to know. But here's what we do know from their battalion tactical groups. At the start of this fight, they had in the range of 125, 130, right around that number. And now the U.S. says they're looking at some 90 battalion tactical groups in Ukraine, though not all of these are fully manned.

And that's what makes it very difficult to know how many troops they still have on the ground in Ukraine.

CABRERA: Oren Liebermann, thank you so much. Great information. Great reporting.

Let's bring in former NATO Supreme Allied Commander retired Air Force General Philip Breedlove and former Director of Communication for U.S. National Intelligence Shawn Turner.

[13:10:03]

Thank you both for taking time, especially on a Friday.

General, is this reporting on Russia's adjustments, trying to fix its early missteps, good or bad news for Ukraine?

GEN. PHILIP BREEDLOVE (RET.), FORMER NATO SUPREME ALLIED COMMANDER: Well, I think it's a little bit of both, honestly.

They had a lot to correct. What you have not mentioned is, they now have unity of command and unity of focus, as they have brought in Dvornikov to lead this. And that was a big part of their problem in the north. And so this means they will be a little bit more disciplined in their approach in the east.

But they are -- they are using ammunition and artillery at an incredible rate. And that is going to cause them supply issues, as has been mentioned.

CABRERA: Shawn, Mariupol is still a focus of Russian attacks, we know.

The Russians bombed a makeshift hospital, we're told, at that steel plant complex where a Ukrainian commander says the humanitarian situation is beyond catastrophic. And this comes on the heels of the U.N. secretary-general's visit with both Putin and Zelenskyy. And he was really focused on trying to help civilians, especially in Mariupol, evacuate.

Do you think an evacuation is now more likely after that visit from the U.N. secretary-general?

SHAWN TURNER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: You know, Ana, we have been here before with regard to deals on evacuations.

And while I think the circumstances around this make this particular possibility of an evacuation a little more likely, I still have my doubts. Look, I think that, across the board, when we look at deals that have been made for evacuations in the past, Putin has proven the one thing that we have been saying about him from the beginning.

He understands that, based on all the failures he's had in Ukraine, that he's not going to take all of Ukraine. And I think Putin gets that now. And so, as I have said many times, what does he want if he can't take all of Ukraine? Well, the one thing we know he wants more than anything is to be feared.

And so I think that, when we make these deals, when we see these agreements on humanitarian evacuations, the reason that they're not materializing is not only because Putin is notoriously unreliable, and we know that he has a tortured relationship with the truth, but also because it is in his interest to make sure that not just the military of Ukraine, but that the people of Ukraine, the men, women and children in Ukraine, the civilians, that they fear him.

And so I think it's a good thing that we're seeing leaders push this, and I think we can put pressure on Putin, but I still have my doubts that this is going to materialize.

CABRERA: We're going to be talking with somebody in the next block about that fear around Putin and how he kind of rules with fear, potentially chemical attacks against critics of his own, locking up dissidents, and so forth.

But just coming back to what's happening on the ground in Ukraine right now, General, the U.S. has been very transparent about the military aid being sent to Ukraine.

For example, the Pentagon reports that 60 percent of the howitzers that were allocated most recently are now in the country. Is there a risk in providing too much public information regarding military support? Could it make it easier for Russia, for example, to keep tabs on Ukraine's capabilities?

BREEDLOVE: Well, we need to qualify that 60 percent; 60 percent are in the country, but they probably have not -- in fact, it seems they have not made it to the front yet. It's a long distance from once they get in the extreme west of the country until they get to the fight.

So I think that, by keeping Russia in tune with what we're doing, we're putting pressure on them to understand that the West is now committed. And we're using new words as of just days ago. Now we're committed to seeing Ukraine win this fight. That is a policy change, and an important one. And I think to continue to remind Mr. Putin that now the West is committed to a different level of support is probably actually a good deal.

CABRERA: Shawn, the other big development today, Putin confirmed he will attend the G20 in November. President Biden has said Russia should be ejected from the G20 altogether.

Do you think President Biden should attend this summit if Putin is there?

TURNER: You know, look, I'm -- just to be very clear on this, if President Putin is planning to attend the G20, I think this is an opportunity for the entire international community to send a clear message.

There is no place for Vladimir Putin on the international stage at this moment or at any moment in the future. And so I would welcome not only President Biden, but other world leaders. I would welcome the opportunity to see them send a clear message to Putin that he is not welcome, not only here, but not in the future.

This is a man who has committed war crimes and unspeakable atrocities. And I think that, by allowing him to stand on the stage next to -- shoulder to shoulder with other world leaders would send a clear message that we're not ready to hold him accountable. And I think that would be the wrong thing to do.

[13:15:11]

CABRERA: And I saw you nodding your head there, General.

I keep thinking about how Russia still has a seat at the table -- at so many tables really, right, from the G20, to the U.N. Why?

BREEDLOVE: It is time to start systematically removing Russia from the leadership on the world stage.

They have demonstrated their complete lack of regard for human life. Their method of warfare is completely unacceptable. And part of our diplomatic endeavor should be to remove them. And many have said we can't remove them from the U.N. or the Security Council. I do not know why now is not a time to start working on a mechanism to do exactly that.

Russia needs to be removed from the world stage.

CABRERA: General Philip Breedlove and Shawn Turner, thank you both.

A chilling assessment of the chemical attack on a Kremlin critic. U.S. officials say Russian intelligence orchestrated the plot against this Nobel Prize-winning journalist. We will discuss with another Kremlin critic who says Putin wants to kill him.

And happening this hour, the Pentagon expected to give an update on the effort to send heavy weapons and support to Ukraine. We will listen in.

Plus, as you pay more at the pump, oil companies are raking in massive profits, and now we know just how massive.

Stay right there.

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[13:21:00]

CABRERA: An anti-Kremlin newspaper editor hit with a chemical attack three weeks ago, and now the U.S. has concluded that Russian intelligence was behind it.

Dmitry Muratov was doused with red paint spiked with acetone and suffered burns to his eyes. Muratov won the Nobel Peace Prize last year. He has been a harsh critic of Vladimir Putin and his unprovoked war in Ukraine.

Our next guest is all too familiar with the Russian leader's wrath. Bill Browder has been a Putin target for more than a decade now. And Browder is the CEO of Hermitage Capital Management. He's the author of "Red Notice: A True Story of High Finance, Murder, and One Man's Fight for Justice."

Bill, it's good to see you.

Russia is still doing this sort of thing out in the open even after all the sanctions and knowing there is tremendous scrutiny of every move right now. What does this tell you?

BILL BROWDER, CEO, HERMITAGE CAPITAL MANAGEMENT: It tells you that they just don't care anymore.

I mean, Dmitry Muratov won the Nobel Peace Prize. And so -- and that the fact that they attack a Nobel laureate with acid just shows how brazen they are. They -- Putin just does not care anymore. He doesn't care what it looks like what he's doing at home. And he doesn't care what it looks like when he's butchering innocent civilians in Ukraine.

At this point, he doesn't want to be liked. He doesn't -- all he wants to do at this point is be feared.

CABRERA: That's so interesting. And we just heard the same thing from a previous guest.

You were the largest foreign investor in Russia until 2005. But in 2009, your lawyer Sergei Magnitsky died under very suspicious circumstances in a Russian prison after exposing widespread government corruption in Russia.

We have just this week reported on the mysterious deaths of two Russian oligarchs and their family members. Russia says they were murder-suicides. What do you think happened?

BROWDER: You know, any time that there is a violent death in Russia, a suspicious violent death, you should assume the worst. You should assume that these were assassinations, assassinations of these individuals and their family members.

These were probably assassinations having to do with their business interests. And it probably had to do with one group in Russia, one faction fighting over money with another faction. Generally, in these situations -- and I don't know the specific circumstances -- but you should assume that these were murders, and then rule that out, as opposed to the other way around, because, most often, in Russia, these are murders.

And I have seen so many over the time that I have been in dealing with the Russians, that it's just too many to assume anything else other than that.

CABRERA: Do you think we will ever get to the bottom of it?

BROWDER: Well, one of the -- so, of these two incidents you're talking about, one of them occurred in Moscow. And so we will never know the truth about that one, but one of them occurred in Spain.

And, in Spain, we will know the truth, because the Spanish police are very thorough, and whatever cover-up or situation might have been attempted by the Russians, they won't get away with. The Spanish know what they're doing.

And so I think, in the Spanish situation, we will eventually know the truth.

CABRERA: We have seen some oligarchs recently condemn the war and criticize Putin.

Knowing that puts them and their families at risk, are you surprised they're speaking out?

BROWDER: Well, I have looked very carefully at the statements that oligarchs have made about the war. And I would say that most of them, not every single one of them, but most of them, almost maybe 90 percent of them, they say things like, conflict is really unfortunate. My heart bleeds for people in war.

But nobody has ever -- I don't think anybody has come out and said, Vladimir Putin is a war criminal, Vladimir Putin is a murderer, Vladimir Putin should be stopped.

I have not seen the name of Vladimir Putin in any of their statements. And that tells you a lot, because all these people are trying desperately to look like they're not in bed with the Kremlin by making statements, by going on social media and saying these things.

[13:25:08]

But, in reality, they're all sort of trying to thread the needle in this very clever way to look like they're critical of the war, but, at the same time, not upset their business partner Vladimir Putin. CABRERA: So, President Biden is asking Congress to authorize the

seizure and sale of assets belonging to certain Russian oligarchs, Putin's allies and enablers, and for that money to then be funneled to help Ukraine.

Does this move hit Putin where it hurts?

BROWDER: Absolutely.

Basically, when you look at an oligarch's wealth, you need to divide it by two. Half of it belongs to the oligarch. Half of it belongs to Vladimir Putin. And so, by seizing this money, you're seizing -- or, actually, by freezing this money, you're freezing Vladimir Putin's money. And by seizing it, by taking it away, you're taking away Vladimir Putin's money.

And so if he is killing and destroying in Ukraine, and we can get some of that money back from his money, it's an absolutely perfect way to deal with the situation and something which I'm sure infuriates him in every possible way.

CABRERA: We know Russia's economy has taken a hit. Russia's Central Bank predicts that its national economy will shrink 8 to 10 percent this year. And that's because of the economic sanctions from Western countries, a punishment that Putin has compared to a declaration of war.

You have said, when Putin has gone to war in the past, it's actually helped his approval back at home. But he's never faced this kind of economic blowback, right? So will this weaken Putin's hold on power?

BROWDER: I think that it's absolutely going to weaken his hold on power.

What I can say for sure is that we have a situation where I think these estimates are underestimates, in my opinion. If he's saying -- if the Russians are saying 10 percent, it's probably like 20 percent.

And what it means in the long term is that, at some point, Vladimir Putin is going to find himself with raising the price of some commodity. And everyone's going to say, you know what? We don't like you anymore. And that's the real risk for him.

I think that, with this major economic collapse, he is in a much more tenuous situation where, like, one little flame can set the whole thing on fire.

CABRERA: I have to ask you, Bill, just going back to where we started our conversation and how Putin goes after his critics, you are a very vocal critic. Are you afraid for your own safety right now?

BROWDER: Well, I think that my risk level has gone up dramatically because Putin -- as we were talking about with Dmitry Muratov in Moscow, Putin doesn't care anymore.

The reason that I'm still here talking to you 12 years after I started my campaign for sanctions for my murdered lawyer is because, for whatever reason, Putin decided in the past that going -- killing a foreign critic on foreign soil was just a step too far, that the consequences would be too great.

Now he is suffering the consequences times 100, and nothing he does to me is going to create any more consequences. And so I would say that I'm probably more at risk than I have ever been since this whole thing started.

CABRERA: Well, I wish you your safety, first and foremost.

Thank you for taking the time to share with us. You have a very unique perspective and insight, knowledge. Thank you so much for joining us.

BROWDER: Thank you.

CABRERA: We are standing by to hear from the Pentagon. Officials have an update on the crisis in Ukraine. We will bring that to you live.

Plus, while Americans are getting hosed at the gas pump, oil companies are watching their profits gush. What is the fix for this?

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