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Ceasefire In Mariupol To Evacuate People From Steel Plant; Ukraine Fears Provocation In Pro-Russian Region Of Moldova; Former U.S. Marine Killed Fighting Alongside Ukrainians; FDA: Kids Under Five Could Get COVID Vaccine By June; Measles Cases Jumped 79 Percent Worldwide This Year; Legal Filing: Whistleblowers Alerted FDA Of Alleged Safety Lapses At Baby Formula Plant Months Before Recalls; Country Music Legend, Naomi Judd, Dies At 76; Biden Resists Pressure To Cancel $50K In Student Debt Per Borrower. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired April 30, 2022 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:59:56]

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: The next hour of CNN NEWSROOM starts right now.

I'm Pamela Brown in Washington.

The top stories.

New video emerging from Ukraine. Women and children trapped in the basement of a bombed out steel plant as they await rescue.

The shocking loss of a legendary voice. Naomi Judd, dead at the age of 76. Her family and the country music world shattered.

Also coming up, I speak to a pediatrician who has advice for anxious parents who can't find baby formula.

You're in the CNN NEWSROOM.

It is midnight in Mariupol, Ukraine. Not that time has any meaning for the desperate civilians holed up right now beneath the sprawling steel plant that has been serving as the last holdout in the utterly ravaged city.

These new pictures are just beyond imagination. Look at this, with nearly every building in the complex destroyed.

Our exclusive satellite images show large holes in the roof, telltale evidence of military strikes. But with a temporary ceasefire in place, a Ukrainian commander says evacuations of surviving residents are under way.

Meantime Russia's defense ministry has released video showing it is now using a submarine located somewhere in the Black Sea to launch cruise missile attacks on Ukraine, confirming earlier Ukrainian military claims.

And Ukraine's president says another mass grave was discovered Friday in the Kyiv suburb of Bucha. Since Russian forces pulled out of this area, a total of around 900 civilians have already been found dead.

CNN has reporters posted throughout the region covering all the latest news.

And we begin with Matt Rivers. Matt, the situation in Mariupol sounds increasingly dire for the people in that still -- that are still trapped in that city that has been under siege for so long.

How long is this alleged ceasefire supposed to last while they try to get these people out of that steel plant?

MATT RIVERS, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. We're still trying to get more information out of the steel plant, Pamela, because it is so difficult to get in touch with people who are there due to the lack of communications infrastructure that is reliable.

However it was a few hours ago, that was the last time that we spoke to the commander of the Azov regiment inside that steel plant that, of course, is one of the last remaining fighting units inside this last remaining packet of resistance in Mariupol.

And what he said is that there are evacuations ongoing with the Red Cross being involved alongside Russia in terms of getting people, civilians, from inside that steel plant complex out, getting them supposedly to Ukrainian-held territory in Zaporizhzhia.

But what he was saying is that only 20 or so civilians of the hundreds that are inside right now have managed to get out. So while this is the first good news in terms of evacuations that we had heard in weeks now, it is certainly not the kind of numbers that we need. Especially when you are hearing things like what we saw a tweet today from Ukraine's official parliament which said powerful and deadly epidemics could soon break out in the city due to the lack of centralized water supply and sanitation.

The decomposition of thousands of corpses under the rubble and a catastrophic shortage of water and food.

Meanwhile Pamela, I did get a chance to speak to a current commander rather in the Azov regiment who was injured in the fighting in Mariupol. He managed to get smuggled out a few weeks ago and he wants the world to remember and wants President Zelenskyy here in Ukraine to remember not only the civilians need to get out but also the fighters themselves.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE KUPARASHVILI, AZOV REGIMENT: It is not only civilians that's the president's responsible to save. It is the president's responsibility as well to save their military. No man stays behind.

And it is his responsibility to deal as well. I would say, we need to a third country -- third country, third side need to be involved as a guarantee with the international nongovernment organizations or government organizations who will provide guarantee for safe leave and evacuation for civilians or military. (END VIDEO CLIP)

RIVERS: And he brings up a third party country because what he says and what we heard before is that a large number of civilians and also the military members that are there simply do not trust the Russians. They do not trust the Russians to provide safe evacuation of the people that are inside that steel plant complex. They think that as soldiers for example, they might even be executed because of the fact that they have been fighting Russia tooth and nail for weeks now, Pamela.

BROWN: Yes. Understandable that they would not trust the Russians.

Matt Rivers, thank you so much.

And now to Randi Kaye in the capital of Moldova where there are fears the Ukrainian conflict may be spreading.

All right. So Randi, first off, what is Transnistria and why are Moldovans concerned?

[17:04:59]

RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well Transnistria, Pamela is this breakaway republic that sits on the border of Moldova where we are and Ukraine. And all day today, we've been talking to people about how concerned they might be about living so close to Transnistria. It claimed independence back in the 1990s after the Soviet Union collapsed and there are five bridges that connect Moldova to Transnistria and that's why it's so unnerving for so many people here.

Add that on top of the fact that you have those recent explosions in Transnistria where the Ukrainians are blaming Russia. Russia is blaming Ukraine. There's also about 1,500 Russian troops that still live in Transnistria and our base there.

And then you have this Russian commander who in recent days has said that Russia wants to control all of southern Ukraine and if so, they could possibly create this land corridor and that would stretch to Transnistria and they would use that to push that into Moldova and possibly further into eastern Europe.

So we've been talking to a lot of folks here today and some said that if that happens and the Russians do come in to Moldova, they invade through Transnistria, one guy told me today that that he would stay, he would fight, he would protect his home, his family, his country.

Many others though told us that they have bags packed, they have passports ready to flee. They are not going to stick around for what they are seeing happening in Ukraine if they can get out.

And Pamela we also spoke to the former Moldovan Ambassador to the United States and he told me that he also is quite concerned about Russia invading Moldova. He says Russia is not doing well in Ukraine and he believes that Vladimir Putin would be looking to show that he could be victorious and that Moldova would be an easy target. Here's what he told me.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAYE: How concerned do you think Moldovans should be about a Russian invasion?

IGOR MUNTEANU, FORMER MOLDOVAN AMBASSADOR TO U.S.: Russia invasion may occur depending on the plans of the Russian military commandant. And since they are not winning too much in Donbas, they would like to have a short victory to be presented to the public in Russia.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAYE: and I mentioned those 1,500 Russian troops that are based there Transnistria. That former ambassador told me that he believes that number could grow dramatically very quickly. He said they already have started recruitment back in March. He said that number he would expect could jump easily to 50,000 troops or more.

And Pamela, it's also worth noting that Moldova where we are is not a member of NATO, is not a member of the European Union and does consider itself a neutral country. Back to you.

BROWN: All right. Randi Kaye, thank you so much.

Let's continue this conversation about U.S. soldiers and veterans who are feeling compelled to go and help Ukraine fight the Russians. Some actually going over there themselves to do just that even as the Biden administration steadfastly refuses to send troops, not wanting to get drawn into a larger war with Russia.

Here is White House press secretary Jen Psaki.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEN PSAKI, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: We know people want to help, but we encourage Americans to find other ways to do so rather than traveling to -- rather than traveling to Ukraine to fight there.

It is a warzone. It is an active warzone. And we know Americans face significant risks. But certainly we know a family is mourning, a wife is mourning, and our hearts are with them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Joining me now, Zachary Burgart, a retired force reconnaissance Marine and Iraq combat veteran who traveled to Ukraine shortly after this war began to help train the Ukrainians to fight.

Welcome back to the show, Zachary. So what is your plan? What is your reaction, rather, to Jen Psaki's comments? She is telling Americans it is risky, don't go there.

ZACHARY BURGART, RETIRED U.S. MARINE: Hey, Pamela. Thanks for having me back. I think it is risky. I think that there are a lot of unknowns. You don't know who you will be with, you don't know their training level. You don't know (INAUDIBLE) breakdowns.

I think that there is just a lot of personal choices, k, that have to be made and unfortunately, it is heart-wrenching when a fellow marine dies. It is tough, yes.

BROWN: Yes. I know, especially given your military background, the fact that you also went over there to help train the Ukrainians.

And when I spoke to you about that in March, you said that you felt more of a need to head toward this war than any you had ever fought in before. What is it about this fight that seems to be speaking to so many U.S. soldiers and veterans?

BURGART: Right. I think that what that was for me, not to speak for others, but what that was for me, just grossly unprovoked invasion of Ukraine by Putin and just the sheer bloodshed and tragedy we're watching on the ground in all the different cities, you know.

But there are so many ways that Americans can go and help military and civilians without actually going to Ukraine.

[17:09:52]

BURGART: The only reason I went to Ukraine was because I went with someone who was born in Ukraine, immigrated to the United States, became a citizen.

So I did not go to train, it just happened to be that is how I could fit in and that is what they needed at the time. I wouldn't go to train just for that purpose. If people do want go and help, they can help by going to Slava.win and we need all the experts we can from fire rescue and military and civilian and even graphic designers with people.

You can sign up to be a volunteer to help the Ukrainians by not going to Ukraine.

BROWN: Slava.win is what you said, right. I just want to make sure.

It's because I know, you know, when people watch these segments, they say how can I help, what more can I do, you know.

I'm wondering what you think about this, according to the Pentagon, U.S. service members in Germany have begun training Ukrainian soldiers on key systems being used to defend Ukraine against the Russian invasion.

How does that work when they are trying to learn about these weapons and complex systems under the pressures of an ongoing war?

BURGART: Yes, you know, a group I'm with through Slava is talking about the news daily. And what we're really seeing is this lack of training. We're trying to fight that by providing this app-based system that allows them to at least get intro to these really complex weapons systems. Because right now, Ukrainians are using YouTube. They're using Instagram. They're using WhatsApp and Signal and text messaging to pass on these snippets of information.

And it just seems like the bottleneck for this current fight is training. With this system we're giving them -- we're giving them highly complex systems and know-how to the systems. It is a tragedy in and of itself.

BROWN: Yes. And I imagine you have a whole network of former soldiers that you stay in touch with in talking about this war. My husband was in the military and I know, he's constantly talking to veterans.

You say that you've helped train Ukrainians to be soldiers, that that is just what happened when you were on the ground. Do you know, have you talked to any other veterans who have actually gone to Ukraine to help them fight?

BURGART: I haven't talked to any veterans who've gone and helped them fight, but I have talked to numerous, different friends and veterans who have gone with different groups to go and train or to go and provide logistics support on the ground or set up infrastructure in some way. And if anyone wants to help with that, they can go to OverwatchFoundationUSA.org where we currently have individuals in Ukraine helping out with medical training and trauma training and things like that.

BROWN: This is actually being encouraged by Ukraine, having citizens come over and help. They actually put up a Web site where you can go to enlist in what it calls the International Legion of Defense of Ukraine. What do you think about that?

BURGART: I think that if people are interested in that, I think it is a great -- I think it is a great need. I think it is great for individuals who want to go and do those things, but I would highly suggest those individuals are experienced veterans.

I think that they should be veterans of a foreign war. You know, OIF, OEF, Syria. And I don't think that you should go without doing some background and some research on what you are getting yourself into if you are looking at that situation.

BROWN: That is really sound advice. Before we let you go, curious, have you been tempted to go back?

BURGART: Yes, of course. I think that since the day I got in the military, I've always been tempted for the next fight and the next deployment. And yes, of course, I want to go and help my friends, you know. I made a lot of friends in Ukraine and as I said, we have people there now. And, yes, I want to go over again.

BROWN: You think you will?

BURGART: But again, I can't say one way or the other.

BROWN: All rihg.t Zachary Burgart, we'll leave it on that note. Thanks so much.

BURGART: All right. Thanks, Pamela. Have a good night. BROWN: You too.

We're following breaking news. The shocking loss of a legendary voice, Naomi Judd dead at age 76. Her family and the country music world shattered.

Also ahead, could vaccines for kids under five be reality as early as June? Pediatrician Dr. Michael Chang has advice for nervous parents.

Plus our experts debate how to solve America's student debt crisis. Is forgiveness really the answer?

And this renowned environmentalist Jane Goodall tells CNN how she is teaming up with Rebel Wilson to save the planet.

You're in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JANE GOODALL, ENVIRONMENTALIST: My main job actually for a good many years has been giving people the hope that will lead them to take action.

[17:14:50]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: More now on the breaking news that we first brought you this last hour. Naomi Judd of the Grammy-winning country duo The Judds has died.

(MUSIC)

[17:19:48]

BROWN: Naomi and her daughter Wynonna ruled the country music charts in the 1980s. Country music stars are reacting to the shocking news.

Tributes are pouring in. Carrie Underwood tweeted this, "Country music lost a true legend. Sing with the angels, Naomi. We're all sending up prayers for the Judd family today."

And Travis Tritt tweeted this. "This is heartbreaking news. Naomi Judd was one of the sweetest people I have ever known. I had honor of working with her in movies and numerous musical events. My deepest heartfelt condolences go out to her family."

"Today, we sisters experienced a tragedy. We lost our beautiful mother to the disease of mental illness. We are shattered, we are navigating profound grief and know that as we loved her, she was loved by her public. We are in unknown territory."

That is the statement there from the sisters -- the daughters of Naomi Judd. And the sisters -- very sad news. May her memory be a blessing. Our thoughts and prayers are with those two sisters. I know how difficult it is to lose a mother. And just that unchartered territory. So again, our hearts are with them.

And you are in the CNN NEWSROOM.

Still ahead, the news a lot of parents with kids under five have been waiting for. COVID vaccines available soon. Pediatric infectious disease specialist Dr. Michael Chang is here with us with his advice to parents.

[17:21:24]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Many parents of children under five have been anxious about when their kids can finally get a COVID vaccine. Other parents are anxious because they don't want to give their kids the vaccine. The FDA says authorization could come as soon as June. So many questions remain.

I want to discuss all of this with Dr. Michael Chang. He's a pediatric infectious disease specialist.

Hi, Dr. Chang. So what has to happen between now and June to help the FDA reach a decision?

DR. MICHAEL CHANG, PEDIATRIC INFECTIOUS DISEASE SPECIALIST: Right, so the vaccine that we're talking about is the Moderna mRNA vaccine. This is a smaller dose than what's been authorized for older kids and adults -- or adults, I should say. So it is a 25 microgram dose, one- fourth of what is given to adults.

So that data has been submitted to the FDA now and so they will have to review the information and then the FDA advisory committee which is an independent advisory committee. They've set three potential meeting dates in June where they will discuss, you know, benefits and the risks of authorizing a vaccine for those under age 5, for kids under 5 years of age.

BROWN: You know, I was talking about the anxiousness of parents and it really goes both ways. Parents who are so anxious, can't wait for this vaccine to be available for their own kids, and others who are so anxious not wanting to give their kids the vaccine, being concerned about it.

In fact there is this Kaiser Family Foundation poll from February finding only 21 percent of parents of children under age 5 will get them vaccinated right away once a shot is available.

What do you say to the parents who are hesitant about vaccinating their kids on this issue, I should say?

DR. CHANG: Right. So for COVID vaccine, you know, as its own issue, you know, I think what you need to look at is the information that we have available now. And so, first of all, mRNA vaccines are not a new technology.

The second thing you have to keep in mind is that mRNA is a naturally occurring compound in our body. We make tons of mRNA ourselves. It doesn't hang around very long. So giving an mRNA vaccine isn't some sort of permanent exposure.

What you also have to keep in mind is now we have millions of doses given in pediatric patients, you know, all over the country and all over the world and we haven't seen any additional safety signals.

So when you take all that together and when you consider that this is going to be a smaller dose which also seems to be as effective as it was in older patients for generating antibody levels, and potentially protecting against severe illness, you know, I think that we should take that data and look at it and say, ok, this seems to be the safest and most effective way to prevent severe illness and hospitalizations from COVID.

BROWN: But what do you say to the parents who would argue, look, COVID is not as dangerous to kids? I mean we've seen it time and time again, you look at the numbers that it is not as harmful to kids as it is adults. And based on what I've seen, the data that I've seen, it is not -- this COVID vaccine is not as effective in kids as it is adults. So what do you say to that?

DR. CHANG: Yes. No, I mean that is definitely true, right? So when you look at it in relation to adult COVID illness for sure, kids fortunately been less impacted by COVID even through delta and omicron relative to adults thankfully.

However, during the omicron phase, we had record numbers of patients being hospitalized with about one in five hospitalized patients ending up in the ICU. So even though, you know, relative to adults, COVID is definitely less impactful for pediatric patients, it still is a significant, you know, cause of illness in this age group.

And when you look at it in the context of just pediatric illnesses, you know, COVID has actually become one of the leading causes of death in pediatric patients.

DR. CHANG: So, you know, with respect to the fact that kids are less affected, that is relative to adults.

[17:30:00]

But when you look at what makes kids sick, Omicron and COVID is definitely a big problem.

As far as how effective the vaccine is, Omicron in general, the vaccines are less effective against Omicron. And so that will be true, you know, for this Moderna vaccine, too. And that's -- when the data was collected was during Omicron surge.

That said, when you talk about a 40 percent reduction in infections, or 40 percent effectiveness, what that means is a person immunized a 40 percent less likely to catch COVID compared to someone who is unimmunized.

So I'd still take those odds, you know, compared to being not immunized.

BROWN: I want to talk about -- let's talk about the huge spike in measles cases worldwide. What is your message to parents of kids who missed getting vaccinated for measles?

CHANG: My message would be definitely check in with your primary care providers and try to get caught up on any routine childhood immunization.

However you feel about COVID vaccines, these other immunizations are important. And those are routine vaccinations that have been used throughout the United States for a long period of time.

And so with respect to measles, it is very contagious. But the vaccine is very effective.

And so we know that if we can keep the vaccination rate of 95 percent or so, you know, then we can be a country that still has no endemic measles.

All our measles cases in the United States now are imported cases.

BROWN: I want to ask about baby formula. There's a lot going on the baby formula front, right?

Abbott, a major producer of powered infant formula, issued a recall of three popular brands in February after four infants fell ill with rare and serious infections. Two of the babies died.

What can you tell us about this bacteria that appeared in the formula?

And also what can you tell us about the baby formula shortage? How do you comfort parents who need formula right now for their babies?

CHANG: Yes, so it is kind of a couple of issues coming together all at once.

And so, first of all, the infant powdered formula shortage and all infant formula shortage right now is a supply chain issue, which is affecting all parts of our economy and our life.

With respect to the Abbott recall, you know, just contributing to the supply chain problem.

There was an infection called Cronobacter sakazakii. And as a pediatric infectious diseases specialist, anytime we hear about that bacterial infection in infants, we start to think about contaminated infant powdered formulas, specifically.

Now, liquid formulas, the premixed formulas, those are actually prepared sterilely. Powdered formulas are not.

But Cronobacter does exist naturally in our environment. And so the contamination of formulas can happen both during the manufacturing process and as well as once you get it and you open up the container of powdered formula. So I think that the FDA did an investigation and found some lapses at

the plant that was manufacturing this formula. But you know, we need more information about that.

This infection can be very serious, as you noted. It can cause infections of the blood, sepsis, and as well as infections of the brain and meningitis.

BROWN: That is just horrifying for any parent with a newborn. Gosh, awful.

All right, Dr. Michael Chang, thank you.

CHANG: Thank you for having me.

[17:33:30]

You're in the CNN NEWSROOM. We continue to follow breaking news on this Saturday. Country music legend, Naomi Judd, dead at the age of 76. We're getting new reaction. Chloe Melas joins me next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:38:18]

BROWN: More now on the breaking news we first brought you last hour. Naomi Judd, of the Grammy winning country duo the Judds, has died.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(SINGING)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Naomi and her daughter, Wynonna, ruled the country music charts in the 1980s.

Chloe Melas joins me now with more.

Such a sad loss, Chloe.

CHLOE MELAS, CNN ENTERTAINMENT REPORTER: I grew up listening to their music. You know, they were at the height of their career in the mid to late '80s/early '90s.

Tomorrow, they were supposed to be inducted into the Country Music Hall of Fame.

I want to read you what her daughters put out.

They put out a statement that says, "Today, we, sisters, experienced a tragedy. We lost our beautiful mother to the disease of mental illness. We are shattered. We are navigating profound grief. And know that, as we loved her, she was loved by her public. We are in unknown territory."

They didn't elaborate what they meant by her being lost to mental illness.

We do know that they stopped performing together in the '90s when Naomi contracted Hepatitis C. But they just had their last performance together 19 days ago. But you know, they stopped touring decades ago.

But, Pamela, they put out so many hits, you know, "Why Not Me," "Give a Little Love," "My Favorite Grandpa." Five Grammy awards, 14 number- one songs. They hailed from Kentucky.

Country music legends are taking to social media, including Carrie Underwood, who talked about the profound loss this is for country music.

Travis Tritt saying that, "It is with his deepest condolences to the family," that he worked with her multiple times and that it is heartbreaking news.

[17:40:08]

And it really is. They really shattered the glass ceiling for female women in country music -- Pam?

BROWN: They really did. And as a Kentuckian myself, we were always in awe of the whole family really. We're just so proud of them.

In fact, we were going through old footage of Naomi Judd interviews. And we found one of my own mom, my late mom, Phyllis George, actually interviewing her in the '90s.

And she actually asked her about her struggles with mental health.

Here is a clip of that interview.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PHYLLIS GEORGE, FORMER ANCHOR, "CBS MORNING NEWS": When you stopped traveling, and you didn't have your daughter there and you didn't have all this commotion and people waving at you through the bustle, in your moments when you were alone, was there ever a moment you doubted that you weren't going to make it?

NAOMI JUDD, FORMER COUNTRY MUSIC STAR: No. I have to say honestly.

Because as soon as I would start to get an inkling that doubt or despair was going to come into my mind -- and this is one of the most valuable lessons that I learned during my illness -- is that Satan is the author of doubt and despair. He is the one that puts that on us.

And we are under scriptural authority to rebuke him. I do that, go get that little bit of exercise. And sometimes I would holler out loud, you know? Like

(CROSSTALK)

GEORGE: What would say.

JUDD: Get thee behind me Satan, you know. And I'm a child of the Most High God and I command you and all your archangels to go to hell.

(LAUGHTER)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Yes, so --

MELAS: We know that their faith was so important to them. She was such a strong mother. And she really was a strong role model. So talented.

That is unbelievable that you have that footage --

BROWN: I know.

MELAS: -- and that your mother got to talk to her. That is just unbelievable.

I wanted just to say, when I was reading on my way over here for this segment, I was reminded at just how young Naomi used to look throughout her entire life.

And that people mistakened her and Wynonna for sisters for decades. People didn't realize that Naomi was actually Wynonna's mother.

And, yes, if you don't realize, Ashley Judd is her daughter as well. She produced these talented women. And it is just so incredibly sad.

And it will be interesting to see if tomorrow the ceremony for their induction into Country Music's Hall of Fame still happens. Will Ashley and Wynonna be going?

And will we get more details as to what exactly happened?

BROWN: Yes. And I know that she's had a lifelong battle with mental health. She has talked about severe depression that she's had.

And that interview with my mom was in '94. And she was talking about it back then.

And as we saw in the statement you read from her daughters, the sisters, they said that they lost her due to the mental health battle that she had.

And my heart just goes them so much. I so understand when they said in this statement this is unknown to us. It is just so unimaginably difficult and our hearts are with their family.

Chloe Melas, thank you.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:47:53]

BROWN: It is a growing debate getting new White House attention, student loan debt and how much of it to forgive.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I am considering dealing with some debt reduction. I'm not considering $50,000 debt reduction.

But I'm in the process of taking a hard look at whether or not there are -- there will be additional debt forgiveness. And I'll have an answer on that in the next couple weeks.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: By CNN's count, President Biden so far has eased $17 billion worth of debt for 725,000 borrowers. And the administration has canceled $3.2 billion in debt for borrowers defrauded by for-profit colleges.

But this is a $1.75 trillion problem. More than 43 million borrowers have federal loan debt. The average balance is $35,100.

Who owes all that money is striking, too. Recent data shows 70 percent of black students go into debt for higher education. And they owe an average of $25,000 more than white college grads four years after graduation.

Undergraduate women take on more student loan debt than men. And women have more debt from graduate studies, too.

So what is the best way to help?

Let's debate this with two important voices on this issue. Natalia Abrams is president and founder of the Student Debt Crisis Center, and Christopher Morphew, dean of the Johns Hopkins School of Education.

Thank you both for your time tonight.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: And so, Natalia, I want to start with you.

Yes, thank you.

And, Natalia, we're going to kick it off with you here.

President Biden says $50,000 in debt reduction, as we just heard there, per borrower, is not on the table. He made that very clear in what he said.

But you say forgiving $10,000 is not enough. And that is what we are told the administration is considering. Why is that? Why is that not enough?

[17:49:57]

NATALIA ABRAMS, PRESIDENT & FOUNDER, STUDENT DEBT CRISIS CENTER: Well, you just mentioned the plight of African-American borrowers in our country. And to add to that, after 12 years, they still often owe more than they initially took out.

And so the Roosevelt Institute, a wonderful organization, did a report that the more debt we cancel, the more we can help narrow the racial wealth gap.

It's not going to completely end it. But this is the easiest lever for President Biden to pull to help not just black borrowers but all student loan borrowers. And we have to cancel as much debt as we possibly can.

BROWN: So, Dean Abrams (sic), what do you say to that, that concern, that very valid concern of the racial gap when it comes to student debt? I know you argue student debt is a symptom and not a problem and forgiveness shouldn't be a blank check.

But what do you say to Natalia?

DR. CHRISTOPHER MORPHEW, DEAN, JOHNS HOPKINS SCHOOL OF EDUCATION: I would agree that trying to reduce inequities that came about as a result of student loan debt is a goal we should be pursuing.

I think the current proposals however are just too blunt of instruments. If you want to reduce inequities, if you want to target low-income student -- debtors, for example, as Senator Sanders and others have said they want to do, then you should be aiming the policy in a more focused way.

Using it for low income -- aiming it at low-income debtors, for example, and not given a general loan forgiveness check to everyone.

BROWN: Right. Because, right now, what is under consideration, Natalia, pretty much anyone could be eligible for this based on their income.

This is according to "The Washington Post," "Earners under $125,000 to $150,000 who are single and then $250,00 to $350,000 of couples would qualify.

Do you think that perhaps the income cap is too high and should go lower?

ABRAMS: I definitely don't think the income cap is too high. We feel that it should not be means tested.

And more importantly, this needs to be automatic. We cannot have - get another failed repayment program where borrowers would have to do an application.

We have to make sure that if we want to help the low-income borrowers, the best way we can do that is by making this automatic so people -- just like the stimulus checks. It shows up in your bank account and you don't have to go through tons of hoops, I would argue craters, to get to the cancellation.

BROWN: Dean Abrams (sic), you also argue that most student debt is, quote, "good debt." Meaning the borrower understood the investment they were making. They will realize the good return on investment and repay the debt on time.

One analysis from Brookings found that, quote, "Our current system tells black and Latino borrowers to leverage debt to offset their own labor market discrimination, credentials for which they must pay more both up front and over time."

"And that 20 years into repayment, the median black borrower still owes 95 percent of the original amount they borrowed while the median white borrower almost fully repaid their loan."

So baseline, it doesn't seem like those borrowers are really getting the return on investment they're being promised. What do you think about that?

MORPHEW: I would agree that for some, that's the case. And for some, for some of those with that. But I think, if you want to fix that problem, you should be focusing on higher education outcomes rather than providing loan forgiveness.

For example, 40 percent of those who graduate who default don't have -- haven't graduated from the institution in question.

Rather than forgiving every one's loans, we would be better off focusing on higher-education outcomes and removing institutions from the student loan program if they had low graduation rate and high default rates.

That would drastically reduce the gap between whites and blacks, for example, when it comes to student loan debt.

BROWN: Natalia, Republican Senator Mitt Romney spoke out about this issue this week. Rhetorically asking, quote, "Forgive auto loans, forgive credit card debt, forgive mortgages, and put a wealth tax on the super-rich to pay for it all? What could possibly go wrong?"

I already have a little bit of your reaction there, this argument that this isn't fair to other borrowers, including those who have already paid off their student loans.

What do you say to Senator Romney?

ABRAMS: I feel like this is always the argument, what's next? But I think we want a government that works for the people. We want to see people do better. And we know that this is, again, as I said before, the easiest lever for the president to pull.

What Senator Romney was talking about are private debts. That's not some money owed to the federal government.

Keep in mind, the federal government is the banker essentially to all of these student loan borrowers and they never intended to be a bank.

BROWN: Very quickly, Dean, final thoughts from you?

MORPHEW: Well, I think Senator Romney's slippery slope argument is not a very good argument either. [17:55:02]

I think this is less about what's next and more about, if you want to fix the problem, that is access to education and high debt, what's the best tool the use? I don't think student loan forgiveness is the best tool.

BROWN: Natalia Abrams, Dean Christopher Morphew, thank you. Great conversation, enlightening conversation, which is always the goal, right?

So thank you.

MORPHEW: Thank you.

ABRAMS: Thank you.

BROWN: It's a tense night in what's left of a steel plant in Mariupol, Ukraine. Hundreds of women and children are huddled in a basement. Their food and hope are running low. The latest on the mission to evacuate them is up next.

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