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Civilian Evacuations from Mariupol; Pelosi's Unannounced Trip to Kyiv; U.S. Involvement in Ukraine; Grand Jury Selection in Trump Investigation; Kim Wehle is Interviewed about the Investigation in Georgia. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired May 02, 2022 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Happening right now, evacuations from Mariupol are under way. About 100 civilians trapped at that Azovstal steel plant, they are now free after sheltering in the basement there for months.

[09:00:05]

Hundreds more, though, remain trapped, including women and children. They are running out of food, water and medicine.

A very good morning to you. I'm Jim Sciutto.

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Erica Hill.

This morning, CNN has exclusive new satellite images showing what that plant looks like now. Nearly every building, as you can see, has been destroyed. A Ukrainian commander says Russian shelling continued overnight despite those evacuations.

Meantime, in the Donetsk region to the east, Ukraine says Russian forces are pressing forward with their assaults to the west. Some new drone video we can show you shows a village coming under heavy fire.

SCIUTTO: But Ukraine is fighting back. New video this morning, there it is, shows a Ukrainian drone striking and destroying two Russian patrol boats. This is near the infamous Snake Island where those Ukrainian sailors stood up to a Russian assault.

These images show a large fire as well at a Russian military installation across the border inside Russia, in Belgorod. CNN has not confirmed how these fires started but they're part of a series of fires and explosions that have taken place in Russian territory.

Let's begin this morning with CNN's Matt Rivers. He is in Kyiv.

Matt, officials say civilians finally getting out of that steel plant, getting out of Mariupol. It's going slowly. Do we expect it to continue?

MATT RIVERS, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, so I think we are expecting it to continue, Jim. And we're talking really about two different evacuation operations that are happening right now in Mariupol. On the one hand, you have the evacuation of the general population of the city. Of course, almost the entirety of Mariupol is controlled by Russian forces. And what we have seen is a cease-fire hold now so that the overall number of residents in Mariupol, tens of thousands of people, according to Ukraine, that need to be evacuated, they can start evacuating from that Russian-occupied territory. Eventually moving to a city called Zaporizhzhia, which is in Ukrainian-held territory.

So, even though things are moving slowly, what we're hearing from Ukrainian officials is that the hope that by the end of the day today you could be talking about hundreds if not thousands of ordinary residents of Mariupol who could get on buses, make their way to Zaporizhzhia and kind of complete an evacuation that officials have been trying to get underway at scale for weeks now. So, that is the one hand.

On the other hand, you have the steel plant complex, the Azovstal steel plant complex, which our viewers are for sure familiar with by now. It's the last remaining Ukrainian pocket of resistance where the last Ukrainian fighters are holed up in that fortress-like complex. But alongside those fighters there are hundreds of civilians. And for the first time really since that became a focal point of attention in this war, we saw civilians get evacuated over the weekend. We're not talking about large numbers, but we are talking about dozens, maybe more than 100 civilians made their way out of that steel plant, also with the goal of getting to Zaporizhzhia.

That is also supposed to continue today, but we're not exactly sure at this point what the situation is at the steel plant. It is, of course, more complicated there, Jim and Erica, because you have Ukrainian forces on one side and Russian forces on the other, versus the other evacuation operation which is strictly coming from Russian-held territory.

But all of this taken together is some good news in a city that really desperately needs it.

HILL: All right, Matt.

SCIUTTO: No question.

HILL: Yes, absolutely.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HILL: Thank you for that, Matt.

We also want to now turn to Nick Paton Walsh, who is in Zaporizhzhia, where some of those folks are now finally arriving from Mariupol.

Nick, good morning.

What more can you tell us in terms of what you're hearing from those evacuees? NICK PATON WALSH, CNN INTERNATIONAL SECURITY EDITOR: Yes, at this

point I should stress, you know, this is a nuanced situation here. At this point we are not seeing signs here at the reception center for evacuees. That -- those who are part of this globally publicized move are actually arriving here. Forgive me, I'm on my camera because of some technical difficulties here, my camera phone.

But behind me we've seen occasional arrivals here today of people who evacuated Mariupol, often on their own, over the past week or so. In fact, one lady I spoke to said that, in fact, she'd been in (INAUDIBLE), a town on the way for a week or so.

There are many different ways in which this evacuation is going to happen, as you were hearing from Matt. I think the focus certainly is on those coming out of the Azovstal plant, of which I think number at this stage, somewhere in the region of just over 100, 46 according to Russian ministry of defense came out in the previous 24 hours. But in the 24 hours we've just had past, 80 emerged and 11 of those, according to Russia's ministry of defense, have chosen to stay in separatist-controlled areas. We have to take their word for that. But certainly even Russia admits that 69 at least from Azovstal are bound for Zaporizhzhia.

Now, add to that as well this United Nations and Red Cross negotiated evacuation of the normal civilian population there, who have been not caught in the Azovstal steel plant, trapped underground in appalling conditions. Those tens of thousands are supposed to be gathering and on their way here now.

Now, reports have changed over the past hours. And, certainly, one local official said that while the buses are on their way to the gathering points, they haven't necessarily collected individuals yet.

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Another Ukrainian official has, in fact, suggested we could be talking about tomorrow or later tonight before those arrivals come in here. It is a mixed picture, but one, of course, of which there is a lot of global attention after Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy --

SCIUTTO: All right, we're losing audio there from Nick Paton Walsh.

As we see, a relief. Some of those residents of Mariupol getting out. But, boy, a long time coming. And, meanwhile, they've been surviving just a relentless assault.

Other news this weekend, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, she's now meeting with officials in Poland. This after she made a surprise visit to the capital Kyiv, becoming the highest ranking U.S. official to meet with the Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy. The California Democrat led a congressional delegation to Kyiv. She vowed to stand by Ukraine in its fight against Russia.

HILL: CNN's Lauren Fox joining us now from Capitol Hill.

This did, as we know, it came as a surprise to a lot of folks. What more are we hearing this morning about that visit and even today's meetings?

LAUREN FOX, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, this is a significant development, in part because of the timing of this visit. It comes a week after Secretary of State Antony Blinken and Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin also made a similar visit. It also comes as the president has sent his official request for $33 billion in supplemental for Ukraine.

Now, that is money that House Speaker Nancy Pelosi vowed is going to get passed in Congress. She made it clear to Zelenskyy that Republicans and Democrats are united behind Ukraine in this fight against Russia.

However, it also comes as the House is out this week. And as there are still sticking points between Republicans and Democrats about how to get that money moving more quickly, right now it appears that it's going to take several weeks to get that $33 billion to Ukraine in military aid, humanitarian assistance. But House Speaker Nancy Pelosi saying in a statement that this was really an example of a master class in leadership from Zelenskyy. And, obviously, she continued to pledge U.S. support, both Republicans and Democrats, for getting that money to Ukraine as soon as possible.

Erica and Jim.

HILL: Lauren Fox with the latest for us on Capitol Hill.

Lauren, thank you.

We've also learned First Lady Jill Biden will travel overseas this week to meet with Ukrainian refugees. She'll visit Romania and Slovakia, and spend some time with educators there who are teaching some of the young refugees. The first lady also set to meet with top- level government officials and U.S. troops who are stationed overseas.

Well, the concerns mounting that Vladimir Putin could deploy chemical, biological or even nuclear weapons against Ukraine. Republican Congressman Adam Kinzinger announced a resolution that if passed would authorize President Biden to force U.S. -- to use U.S. military force, rather, against Russia.

Take a listen.

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REP. ADAM KINZINGER (R-IL): It doesn't compel the president to do it. It just says, if it is used, he has that leverage. It gives him, you know, a better flexibility, but also it is a deterrent to Vladimir Putin.

Prior to World War II, there were moments nobody ever wanted to get involved and eventually came to realize they had to. I hope we don't get to that point here. But we should be ready if we do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: We're joined now by retired Army Lieutenant Mark Hertling. He's the former Army commanding general of the Europe and 7th Army.

General, good to have you on.

I wonder, when you look at the collection of public statements and moves coming out of Washington. You have a congressman here suggesting -- at least allowing the president this authority should it come to that.

You have Lloyd Austin and others talking about weakening Russia as being a goal of this operation, as opposed to just defending Ukraine. You see how Putin and Russian state media has reacted to that. They're now characterizing this as a war against the west, not just against Ukraine. Does that make you worry that both sides are talking up an escalation, an expansion of this war, in effect?

LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Yes, it does not, Jim. And I'm not sure what would cause further escalation for Russia than what they've done already. I mean they have -- they have proven themselves to be just critically damaging to the sovereignty and the nation of Ukraine.

You know, I'd say that the administration has performed very well in terms of planning ahead, having teams that think about the consequences and what the reaction -- action/reaction might be. So I'm not sure that there's a whole lot of need for members the legislation to be suggesting what should happen next because I think the administration has some great intelligence and some experts that they're doing that themselves.

But, no, I don't believe it ramps up or ratchets up the dynamics. I think it's an important thing to say the kinds of things that had been said about how we are going to react to the aggression by Russia.

HILL: When we look at, though, how Russia is performing and, you know, we've all talked about this a number of times over the last couple of months, there is this concern that in areas where things are not going well, that that could, in its own way, provoke a further escalation on the part of Russia, on the part of Vladimir Putin.

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As you look at the way things are playing out this morning, where does your concern stand on that front?

HERTLING: Well, my concerns continue to be watching the front line, Erica, especially the northern Donbas area. Russia has poured a lot of forces into that northern (INAUDIBLE), if you will, around Sloviansk and Isium (ph) and they seem to not be doing very well. In fact, every attack they have has been repelled. They certainly have put, as we've said for weeks, they put a lot of artillery in that area. But every time they try and put forces into the area, they've been thwarted by not only the Ukrainian forces but also by the terrain. The rivers, the roads, the bridges that are in that area.

You talked a little bit earlier about the evacuation from Mariupol. I believe, as kind of an amateur historian, that in the future, the battle of Mariupol is going to be critically important to what has happened on the front line because it has prevented Russia from executing that southern pinser (ph) and it also has prevented them from going to the west along the border -- the boundaries of the Azov and Black Sea.

So, all of those things have shown that the Russian army had not been able to conduct an effective offensive in the Donbas or in the south. And it's shown what an effective defense Ukraine has put up.

All of those things are critically important. I'm sure Mr. Putin and his generals are extremely frustrated. But, truthfully, from the very beginning, as we said, they have not put the kind of forces and they have not had the kind of synchronization that you need to conduct operations that they needed to do.

SCIUTTO: That frustration can go two ways, right, because it could lead to a further reduction in Russia's military aims in Ukraine or it could lead to escalation. I mean there's a school of thought -- Peggy Noonan wrote about this in "The Wall Street Journal" this weekend, that the worse Putin's army does on the ground, the greater risk that he takes, an outlier move, such as using tactical nuclear weapons.

And , again, I don't want to overstate that risk. I know it is one that the Pentagon takes at least seriously and watches for any signs of. Putin can't lose, right? So, do you worry that as he gets more frustrated, that risk becomes greater?

HERTLING: I don't worry about it, Jim, but it is certainly a concern. And I think the intelligence indicators are focused on what might create those kinds of uses of extreme weapons, weapons of mass destruction. So, I firmly believe that the U.S. government and NATO is watching very closely for any indicators of the use of either chemical or nuclear weapons and that there will be a reaction to that, or a preemption, in some cases, if that happens.

So, you know, folks, the pundits, since the very beginning, have said, well, if we push too hard, Russia is going to use some kind of extreme measure. That is certainly is a consideration. But what we've seen so far is, Mr. Putin, since the very beginning, has failed in achieving every one of his strategic objectives. He continues to adjust his operational objectives. And even then he continues to fail.

So, you know, when you're talking about what is next for him, man, I hope that there's a potential that the Russian people will see what's happening and as more news gets back to the population, that they will take action and get this individual out of the leadership of Russia.

SCIUTTO: We'll see. You know, right now the indicators are they don't get much accurate information.

HILL: Yes.

SCIUTTO: But, maybe it gets through.

HILL: We'll be watching.

Lieutenant General Mark Hertling, always good to have you with us. Thank you.

HERTLING: Thanks, Erica.

HILL: Still ahead here, a glimmer of hope amid this war. A Ukrainian soldier resurfaces two months after being captured by Russian forces, and immediately marries his girlfriend.

SCIUTTO: That's great.

HILL: That is nice.

Plus, former President Trump under renewed scrutiny for his efforts to overturn Georgia's election results. Details ahead on the special grand jury being seated today.

SCIUTTO: Remember his words, find the votes.

And, later, a man accused of capital murder escapes from a jail in Alabama. Now the sheriff is looking for that inmate and the connections officer who checked him out.

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HILL: Next hour, Fulton County prosecutors will begin selecting a special grand jury for an investigation into former President Trump.

SCIUTTO: District Attorney Fani Willis' office is determining whether Trump illegally tried to overturn the 2020 election results in Georgia. After a call with the secretary of state, Brad Raffensperger, revealed Trump badgered him to find votes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: So, look, all I want to do is this. I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have, because we won the state.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Find 11,780, one more than we have.

CNN's Sara Murray joins us now from Atlanta.

So, I'm curious about the timeline of this. You know, all these events took place nearly a year and a half ago. How does this progress from here?

SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I mean, it feels like, in some ways, this is a long time coming. But they are selecting this special grand jury today. They have, you know, 200 potential grand jurors. They'll whittle that down to about two dozen. And then she'll seat the special grand jury. She'll have a year. And they're going to have broad investigative powers. They can subpoena witness testimony. They can subpoena documents. They can ask for email records, phone records, that kind of thing.

Willis has told us she wants to try to make a charging decision before the end of the year. But as for what happens once this grand jury is seated, that's going to be pretty secretive.

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That all happens behind closed doors.

And, you know, we know that she is looking into a wide array of matters. She has made it clear that she is looking into the call, of course, between Donald Trump and Brad Raffensperger, as well as calls Trump made to another official in the secretary of state's office. But she's also looking at Rudy Giuliani's presentations that he made before Georgia lawmakers in the state that were filled with lies about the 2020 election, filled with conspiracies. She's looking at a call Lindsey Graham made to Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger and also the sudden resignation we saw of a U.S. attorney here, B.J. Pock (ph).

So, you know, that's a sense of what this grand jury is really going to be digging into. But we can't just look at this in a vacuum. You know, this grand jury is being seated at the same time as we've had the January 6th committee digging up new information, digging up, you know, new revelations that could potentially be relevant to this jury here in Georgia. And we know that the district attorney here has been paying attention to those.

One of those revelations was in a little noticed court filing. And it sort of gives you a sense of the panic we saw around that call, the call between Donald Trump and Brad Raffensperger. A top aide to Raffensperger at the time, Jordan Fuchs (ph), was texting Mark Meadows during the call saying, need to end this call. I don't think this will be productive much longer. Meadows responds, OK, and Fuchs says, let's save the relationship, thank you. Wow. That's what was happening in real time. You know, we know how this has progressed since then, but today's going to be a big day for the district attorney. Gives her some pretty broad, investigative powers going forward, guys.

HILL: Yes, absolutely. Sara Murray, appreciate it. Thank you.

And joining us now to discuss, former assistant U.S. attorney and law professor at the University of Baltimore, Kim Wehle.

So, Kim, you are also, I should point, the author of "How to Think Like a Lawyer and Why."

As we look at, you know, everything that Sara just laid out for us there in terms of what will be happening with this special grand jury once it's seated. She also noted, which I thought was interesting, you know, that -- that Fani Willis has said she's hoping to charge by the end of the year. Putting all that together, it seems like that would be moving pretty quickly.

KIM WEHLE, FORMER ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY: Well, quickly in light of, you know, everything else that's moving so slowly, I should say, you know, some would look at the call itself, the audio and say, listen, that is on its face a serious problem for the former president. I think we've forgotten, as a culture, that it's actually against the law, federally and across the country at the state level to take steps to thwart an election. That is a crime.

I think what Sara just indicated is that her investigation's more expansive than just that call. And that's why she's impaneling this grand jury. She wants to subpoena people that reportedly refused to cooperate without a subpoena and she's waiting until the midterms in May but has her eye on something -- something soon. And I think the American people are waiting as well to see some accountability for -- at the top down around January 6th and the lies around the last election, presidential election.

HILL: So, in terms of that accountability, you just wrote a piece, an opinion piece for "Politico" titled, the cost of not indicting Trump now is a presidency without guardrails. And in that piece you say, the Trump presidency stands as a flashing invitation for future presidents of any political stripe to commit federal crimes with no accountability.

As you pointed out, we've heard that audio from the phone call. The reality, though, is that there are still investigations ongoing. So, when you're calling for this indictment now, is there a risk in doing that, that this is seen as a really political move?

WEHLE: Well, there's always a risk that it's political. And some people just -- sort of their stomach turns at the notion of indicting a former president. And, you know, people across this political spectrum don't want to accept the notion that I lay out in this piece, which is that the framers of the Constitution really understood psychology more than politics. They understood that without consequences it's human nature to ultimately abuse power and be corrupt. And we have to ask ourselves, after the last presidency, after Donald Trump, what is in place in this moment to stop him from willy-nilly committing crimes in the White House if he gets re- elected, or, frankly, any future president who doesn't have their own internal stopgaps to follow the rule of law?

And, frankly, as I lay out in the piece, they're gone. Impeachment's out the window. If impeachment doesn't work, congressional investigations don't work. Courts can't hear cases unless prosecutors bring them. You know, voters can't be relied on. The framers understood that. The 25th Amendment isn't in place for corruption and crimes. So, what I argue is that people like Miss Willis, and, frankly, the attorney general, have to take steps now as a shot across the bow to human nature's worst instincts, which is, again, you have massive powers in the White House.

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It's unparalleled in anywhere in American government.

The Justice Department, the FBI, spying, the entire military apparatus. If there aren't stopgaps in place to basically say, whoa, you know, you've got to comply with the law, it's over for American democracy. And I know it's hard for people to hear that, but that's why it's absolutely vital to do things. One, there be environments. And, number two, that people watch the January 6th hearings that are coming up in June and vote in November based on that. Vote for democracy itself, not red versus blue.

HILL: And in those hearings, it will be interesting to see, too, how they're conducted, how they're laid out as they -- as they try to make their case.

I do want to get you really quickly before we let you go, speaking of January 6th. A federal judge has now said that the committee can obtain the RNC's marketing email data.

Why is that so significant, do you think?

WEHLE: Well, I think Jamie Raskin, Rep. Jamie Raskin, has indicated, we're going to hear new information in June. And I think it's not just around Donald Trump. It's also members of the United States Congress that are sitting in the United States Congress in power in this moment who were complicit if not a party to crimes. And I say crimes because a federal judge has already said that Donald Trump likely committed crimes around January 6th. And he had a lot of enablers and handlers and people that are still in that posture.

So, I think the fact that the January 6th Committee is looking to the RNC's internal dialogues around this is just putting more pieces to that puzzle together, that we've got people in government that are fundamentally anti-democratic. And it's not America's birthright to wake up in the morning and have a gleaming democracy functioning for us.

And when democracy fails, what goes with that is individual rights. Your right to liberty and freedom as opposed to a very powerful government. That's what goes. And once that goes, it's not just Democrats that lose, it's Republicans, it's independents, it's every American.

So these hearings are probably, you know, I can't think of something, at least in my lifetime, more important. Everyone should be gripped to the television and make sober decisions about who we want in power moving forward in our government.

HILL: Kim Wehle, always appreciate you joining us. Thank you.

WEHLE: Thank you, Erica.

SCIUTTO: Just ahead, Ukrainians dodging bullets and bombs. We're going to speak to one woman who had to escape Russian shelling alongside a CNN team. That's coming up.

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