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Large Fires Break Out at Russian Military Installation in Belgorod; Special Grand Jury Selection Begins in Georgia Trump Investigation; Judge to Decide If Survivors' Reparations Case Goes to Trial. Aired 10:30-11a ET

Aired May 02, 2022 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: New video in to CNN shows fires and large columns of black smoke rising near from a site near the Russian border town of Belgorod. You could see it there.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Notable, not the first time we've seen this kind of thing inside Russia.

Another video shows police near, redirecting traffic away from the site, helicopters circling. The city, the governor of Belgorod says a fire broke out at a Russian military installation. It didn't say what caused it but we've seen a lot of unexplained fires and explosions at military facilities and fuel depots inside of Russia.

Joining us now to discuss, retired Army Colonel Liam Collins. He served as an executive officer for the U.S. senior defense adviser to Ukraine back in 2016 to 2018.

[10:35:03]

Good to have you on.

I wonder, as I said there, this is not the first time we've seen this. We've seen a whole host of these kinds of things that could be attacks, right? Ukrainian officials are basically not confirming or denying that they're behind them. When you look at these, do they look like sabotage operations by Ukrainian forces inside Russia?

COL. LIAM COLLINS (RET.), U.S. ARMY: Yes. I mean, these are obviously attacks. I mean, if a country's at war, I mean, that's the most likely explanation, and so that makes sense. I mean, they're trying to hit while Russia's war fighting capacity and their war fighting effort. So, it clearly is coming from the Ukrainians, yes.

HILL: So, look at that, what's happening there. We may be a little rapid fire this morning to get your take on a couple different points here. There's been so much talk about Mariupol and what is or is not happening there. The small number of civilians that have been allowed now to leave, what is your take on what the real plan is for Russia behind that move to start to allow a few people out? COLLINS: Yes. I mean, the fighters there have been a thorn in Russia's side for weeks now. They thought they were going to take Mariupol weeks ago and they decided they were going to blockade off the steel plant. Because, I mean, at any time, if you've driven by an industry or something like that, that's probably the most challenging target you could take, right? I mean, it's not organized in a grid layout. There're all kinds of places to hide. You can get easily misoriented.

So, the Russian forces don't want to assault this and take out the last remaining Ukrainian defenders. So, it's in Russia's best interest at this point just to try to get the civilians and get the wounded fighters out of there and get as many fighters out so they don't have to storm it.

SCIUTTO: What's the significance then of this? Because, first of all, they have -- they already have the key crossroads, all the roads that are so important down there in Mariupol. What they want to do then is take the forces that are continuing to assault that steel plant and then redirect them up to this assault in the east. If they're able to do that, is that potentially influential, impactful on the fight in the east?

COLLINS: I mean, not significantly. They don't have that many forces that they can redirect. And then also even though they'll be able to redirect forces, they don't have these fighters at the steel plant, I think they're going to have to see guerrilla warfare and some of the volunteers that are going to emerge not necessarily right there in Mariupol but around the area.

I mean, there are always some that remain in the cities after conflict. I mean, I think, typically, even though a city is under siege, as many as 10 percent or more of a population often remains. So, I don't think they're going to be able redirect a large number and they don't have a large number in Mariupol. So, it's not critical of the work but it is kind of a moral victory for the Russians if they can say they finally got the last defenders out of Mariupol.

HILL: In terms of claiming victories too, we should point out, of course, a week from today, May 9th, Victory Day in Russia. There's been a lot made about what maybe Putin would like to claim on Victory Day this year. Do you anticipate a ramp-up anywhere over this next week heading into that holiday?

COLLINS: No. I mean, we're almost ten weeks into the war and there's no way Russia is going to magically turn this thing around and achieve a significant victory within the next week. So, that seems unlikely. What's more likely is he's just going to spin something, some land that he already has. Maybe it's Mariupol, something in that area, declare it as a semi-autonomous republic or something like that, but they're not going to be able to make some magical gains within the next week or so.

SCIUTTO: Yes, lies are so central to the portrayal of this conflict from the beginning.

Colonel Liam Collins, thanks so much.

COLLINS: Thank you.

HILL: The selection of a special grand jury happening right now in Atlanta. This, of course, related to the investigation to former President Trump's efforts to illegally overturn Georgia's election. What does all of this mean? Where could it lead? Stay with us. That's next.

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HILL: The selection process for a special grand jury is now under way for Georgia's investigation into former President Trump. You're looking at some video from just moments ago. District Attorney Fani Willis' office is considering whether Trump illegally tried to pressure Georgia officials to overturn the 2020 election results.

SCIUTTO: Prosecutors specifically looking into a phone call in which Trump pressured the Georgia secretary of state, Brad Raffensperger, to, quote, find votes.

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DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: So, look, all I want to do is this. I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have, because we won the state.

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SCIUTTO: Here to discuss, former New York City Prosecutor and CNN Legal Analyst Paul Callan.

Okay, Paul, so a layman might look at that statement, the president, a very powerful figure, instructing the secretary of state to find votes sufficient to overturn that state based on nothing other than his claim, his belief, he says, that he won the state. What's the legal standard for establishing that that was illegal interference?

PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, it certainly looks bad for Trump, that statement. It looks like he's fishing to overturn the election. But if you got it into court just on that statement alone, you'd have a very hard time getting a conviction. And the reason I say that, Jim, is because this is the kind of statement where you can draw two possible conclusions from what the president said.

One clearly is that he was instructing his Republican secretary of state in Georgia to find one more vote to overturn the election, one more vote that had not been cast in his favor.

[10:45:08]

However, if you look carefully at the statement, at the end of it, he says that, after all, we won the state of Georgia. So, the defense would be, now, he wasn't looking for illegal votes, he was just looking for the proper votes to be tallied, which says to me that this new grand jury being empanelled is being done because it's not this statement which is kind of the top of the iceberg, it's what was going on below, what were other aides of Trump trying to do to overturn the election.

HILL: So, in terms of that, right, we know that Willis has also confirmed some of the other things that her office is looking at, some other moments. Among them, a call in January of 2021, that one we just mentioned obviously. But these other calls that went on, Lindsey Graham calling Secretary of State Raffensperger.

How could this special grand jury, right -- what are they going to be able to find? Give us a sense of what they could actually present to the attorney general and then what would happen?

CALLAN: Well, Erica, here is what this grand jury can do that the district attorney in Atlanta can't do. The grand jury has broad investigative powers, including subpoena powers. What a lot of people don't realize is that a D.A. or even the cops cannot force you into give a statement under oath but a grand jury can. You get a grand jury subpoena, you can get hauled in front of that grand jury and you can be compelled to testify. Of course, you might have a Fifth Amendment right once there but the police don't have that power.

So, this will give them broad powers to look at anybody who was involved in trying to overturn the Georgia election, to see if there's a deeper crime.

Now, what they may come up with, if they come up with criminal activity, a conspiracy to commit election fraud, solicitation of others to participate in that conspiracy, all of these could be serious felonies and, of course, there are a host of misdemeanors too that could be investigated.

HILL: Yes. And thank you for correcting me when I misspoke. I said attorney general. Of course, I meant the district attorney. Paul, I appreciate, as always, my friend. Thank you.

CALLAN: Okay. Thank you, Erica.

SCIUTTO: Coming up next, a potential last chance for reparations for the surviving victims of the 1921 Tulsa race massacre. Details on the key decision coming from an Oklahoma judge today.

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SCIUTTO: Today, three survivors of the 1921 Tulsa race massacre is still alive all these years later may get a chance, their last chance for some semblance of justice.

HILL: A judge in Oklahoma is expected to decide if their case for reparations will go to trial. CNN's Omar Jimenez is live for us in Tulsa this morning. So, Omar, as you mentioned, three living survivors, the youngest, I believe, is 101 and is expected to attend the hearing. Correct?

OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Jim and Erica. Yes, the youngest is 101 years old here. He'll be at the hearing, Hughes Van Ellis, otherwise known as Uncle Red. And he sent a text to his attorney as part of a long court process that's been going back to the spring of last year, and he sent his attorney a text saying, they're trying to wait us out but we're not going anywhere.

Basically, what they are arguing here is that since, of course, the Tulsa race massacre happened back in 1921, that area leadership thwarted efforts to rebuild the Greenwood neighborhood here in Tulsa where this happened, that the city promoted and profited off of tourism at the site of that massacre and the victims in this, three of them still living, never saw any form of compensation.

So, the lawsuit is seeking financial reparations for the loss of life and property during the massacre, the creation of a victim's compensation fund, reparations for many profits made by the government from tourists visiting the Greenwood area to learn about the massacre and one of the attorneys representing these victims is looking at the hearing today not just as a hearing but something much more. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAMARIO SOLOMON-SIMMONS, ATTORNEY FOR PLAINTIFFS: We must fight for our rights and our dignity. And that is what justice for Greenwood is about. That is what tomorrow is about. When we go in that courtroom, we will fight for our right and our dignity.

We will win tomorrow. We will win this trial. We will get justice for Greenwood, justice for Greenwood.

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JIMENEZ: Now, the defendants, which includes the Board of County Commissioners, have argued that they are exempt from liability in cases of civil disobedience, riot, insurrection, that too much time has passed since, of course, this happened over a hundred years ago at this point, and that the allegations are too vague.

However, the survivors are arguing the generational wealth stripped from them so suddenly at the time still reverberates today.

And I mentioned that this is a long court process. These grievances were filed over a year ago at this point. And this hearing today is just to decide if they will be able to move forward to an actual trial, which, of course, for this 101-year-old and the 106-year-olds and others that are surviving, this is probably their last chance to try and get some semblance of justice here.

[10:55:00]

SCIUTTO: Yes, over a century later. Omar Jimenez there in Tulsa, thanks so much. HILL: Thanks to all for joining us on this Monday. I'm Erica Hill.

SCIUTTO: I'm Jim Sciutto also in New York with this one.

At This Hour with Kate Bolduan starts right after a quick break.

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