Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Search Continues For Corrections Officer Who Fled With Inmate; Special Grand Jury Selected in Georgia Trump Investigation; Race to Evacuate Mariupol. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired May 02, 2022 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:03]

JOHN KING, CNN HOST: Sara Murray live for us on the ground in Atlanta.

Sara, thanks so much.

Appreciate your time today on INSIDE POLITICS. Hope to see you back here this time tomorrow.

Ana Cabrera picks up our coverage right now.

ANA CABRERA, CNN HOST: Hello, and thanks for being with us. I'm Ana Cabrera in New York.

Today in Ukraine, We're following a race to evacuate and a push to get American diplomats back in Kyiv as Russian strikes intensify. In Mariupol, roughly 100 civilians were evacuated over the weekend. But hundreds more, including children, are still trapped, still hunkering down inside this steel plant that officials say is still enduring relentless missile strikes and bombings. New

satellite images show just how decimated that plant now is. And those lucky enough to get out say they didn't see sunlight for two months. Also, there's news today of a so-called Russian filtration camp that some of these Mariupol survivors have been forced into, all while Russia's military tries to advance in the east.

Ukrainian officials say the only real gains Russian forces have made are in the areas they have completely decimated. And U.S. officials say their goal is to return diplomats to Kyiv by the end of this month.

We are also learning more about this surprise trip House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and other lawmakers took to meet President Zelenskyy in person, one lawmaker on that trip now telling CNN it's only a matter of time before President Biden goes as well.

CNN's Nick Paton Walsh joins us now from the city near the front lines where evacuees from Mariupol have been arriving.

Nick, what is the latest? NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL SECURITY EDITOR: Yes,

there is still no confirmation indeed, no presence when we were in the reception area for evacuees, that those who have left the Azovstal steel plant and other civilians for Mariupol, part, I should stress -- this is important -- part of this U.N. and Red Cross-escorted convoy.

They have arrived here in Zaporizhzhia, where they're supposed to be essentially ending their journey here back in Ukrainian-held territory. Now, it is clear, it seems, that they have left Azovstal. We have seen video people emerging from there, over 100 over the past 48 hours, certainly.

And it does appear, according to officials from both, frankly, sides are the front lines here that buses containing these individuals have taken off from their starting points in Mariupol, and there have been pictures suggesting them on the road as well.

I have spoken to some Ukrainian officials who have suggested they may have stopped and may stop overnight, indeed, at some of the towns between Mariupol and here in Zaporizhzhia that are still under Russian control.

And Ukrainian officials have essentially complained at how difficult it's going to be to get some of these people out, despite the efforts being made by the United Nations here as well. I should point out this is -- has been an exceptionally difficult and treacherous journey for those who've tried it before in the past, fraught with multiple Russian checkpoints and shelling as well.

The notion had been that if United Nations got involved in this with the Red Cross, they could make this easier and increase the scale, not just the 100, possibly hundreds from the Azovstal plant that has been so heavily bombarded, the scenes of, quite frankly, devastation that some satellite images have just revealed the full extent of, but also too there might be tens of thousands of other civilians caught in Mariupol who might choose this guided green corridor, so to speak, out of Mariupol.

So the success of today's operation yet to be fully manifested by that convoy getting to here, the Ukrainian held city of Zaporizhzhia, is a vital test or whether it essentially works. And it does appear to be facing some difficulties, certainly delays, with the possibility we may see those first people emerging from Azovstal here in the hours ahead.

CABRERA: I think the world is holding a collective breath for those evacuees, praying they get to safety.

Nick, we're also hearing of claims that Russia has held some of these evacuees, that they're at least saying some of these evacuees from Mariupol are choosing to go to Russia or stay in Russian-controlled areas, this as Mariupol's mayor describes filtration centers some of these evacuees are going through.

What do you know about this? WALSH: Yes, look, it's important to remember that, when we talk about

people leaving Mariupol, it is not always good news for all of them. Thousands, it appears, have been taken east in to Russia

And Russia says, well, this is all part of our bid to essentially denazify. That's their absurd justification for invading Ukraine, that it essentially has Nazi tendencies here that needed to be stamped out. But they will be taking people to filtration camps potentially for some sort of reeducative process.

Now, obviously, that is a nonsense and a fiction of itself, but it's no comfort, that, for those who are forced to go through it, taken in an easterly direction, put through filtration camps and possibly resettled in other parts of Russia.

[13:05:06]

We have learned today, in fact, from the Russian Ministry of Defense that, of the 100 or so in the last 48 hours who have emerged from the Azovstal plant, that, in fact, 11 of them, according to the Russian Ministry of Defense, have opted to stay in separatist-held territories.

The Russians did accept that 69 had got passed to go on here to Zaporizhzhia. So, yes, it's important to remember that, when we talk about people evacuating from Mariupol, there is a binary choice -- not a choice -- a binary possibility of where they end up.

It seems the vast majority want to be in Ukrainian-held territory, but some do find their way to Russia.

CABRERA: Nick Paton Walsh, thank you for all of your ongoing hard work there. I appreciate your reporting.

New comments from Russia's foreign minister have sparked outrage in Israel. Sergey Lavrov was asked about Russia's stated goal to denazify Ukraine. The reporter pointed out that President Zelenskyy is Jewish. And Russia's foreign minister responded, saying Adolf Hitler had Jewish blood.

CNN Hadas Gold is live in Jerusalem.

Hadas, what's the response to this comment?

HADAS GOLD, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT: Well, Ana, let's be clear, Sergey Lavrov is using unfounded old conspiracy theories as part of their justification for that absurd goal of denazifying Ukraine.

But those comments that were made to an Italian news station yesterday eliciting very strong responses from Israeli officials, the prime minister, Naftali Bennett, calling them lies. The foreign minister, Yair Lapid, going even further in a tweet, saying that: "The remarks are both unforgivable, an outrageous statement, as well as a terrible historical error. Jews did not murder themselves in the Holocaust. The lowest level of racism against Jews is to accuse Jews themselves of anti-Semitism." Lapid said that Israel had been trying to maintain good relations with Russia, but that this had crossed a line. The Russian ambassador to Israel has been called in for talks. Now, in terms of keeping good relations with Russia, Israel has been trying to keep the sort of delicate diplomatic act between Ukraine and Russia.

The prime minister has been trying to act as mediator. Israel says it has concerns, security concerns, as to why they haven't necessarily gone further in, for example, joining Western sanctions against Russia. Although they have condemned the invasion, they have accused Russia of war crimes, they haven't gotten that far as those sanctions.

Now, will these comments push Israel that far? Unlikely. But you can tell -- you can definitely tell that they are starting to shift that way -- Ana.

CABRERA: OK, thank you very much, Hadas Gold.

With us now is CNN global affairs analysts Kim Dozier and former NATO supreme allied commander General Wesley Clark.

Kim, first to you.

Your reaction to that comment from Lavrov, and what does it tell you about Russia's strategy right now, as we just heard Hadas lay out, that Israel hadn't really gone all in terms of its sort of anti- Russian invasion stance?

KIMBERLY DOZIER, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, Israel needs Russia for geopolitical reasons in the region, things like permission to fly over Russian-occupied or Russian-influenced areas of Syria to hit possible weapons that are going to Hezbollah in Lebanon.

But this kind of comment shows a clash between the disinformation that we see spreading inside Russia -- this whole theme of denazification has really stuck for a lot of the Russian population. But it's hitting the outside world and Israel in particular. And this is when Russia learns that not everyone's going to buy into that disinformation, and that it's going to have possibly bad, corrosive effects on one of its few remaining partnerships or alliances.

CABRERA: General Clark, Ukrainian officials and outside observers have actually compared Russia's actions to that of the Nazis. The Mariupol mayor claims Russia has killed twice as many in that city than Nazi Germany did.

And Mariupol has been under constant bombardment for months. And after many foiled attempts, now we're learning some civilians, about 100, were able to leave that steel plant there. But why did it take so long for the humanitarian evacuations to be successful, assuming they are?

Because we know, according to Nick, that not everybody who has been evacuated, at least initially, has made it to those outskirts of Mariupol in a city like Zaporizhzhia. But are -- but what are your thoughts on how this process has played out? And are you surprised that only about 100 or so got out of that plant? WESLEY CLARK, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: I'm not surprised.

This is all part of an integrated Russian strategy. This is the way that Putin and his men operate. They want to inflict terror. They want psychological pressure. They get that psychological pressure by raising hopes and then dashing hopes. So, they say they're going to evacuate. Then they don't evacuate. They say they will. Then they don't.

And this is all part of the pressure campaign on President Zelenskyy. This is all part of Putin's plan to smash militarily, then call for Zelenskyy to surrender, based on the pain that's being inflicted on the civilian populace.

[13:10:11]

Now, the plan may not be working very well, but the individual components of it are still followed. And that component is, you just don't let people leave. You search them. You make it hard on them, and you do everything you can to inflict pain and suffering on that civilian population.

CABRERA: And, General, Congressman Adam Kinzinger is now pushing a resolution to authorize President Biden to use U.S. military force if Russia uses chemical or nuclear weapons in Ukraine. Kinzinger believes this would be a deterrent to Vladimir Putin from even taking that action.

Is he right?

CLARK: Well, I think that Mr. Putin has to understand that the United States has a range of activities and actions that it could take if he uses nuclear weapons.

I don't know about this congressional resolution. I have looked at it. And I think it's -- if it's strongly supported by the Congress, that's a good thing. But whether there's a resolution or not, the United States has made very clear that it stands with Ukraine, that it's going to make sure that Russia doesn't get a strategic success in Ukraine, and that it will do whatever is necessary.

So, I think there the resolution is sort of a way of a group of people in Congress expressing an intent that they hope will reinforce the administration. But I think the administration's come a long way in its policy since the 24th of February.

CABRERA: Kim, do you think that would be a deterrent if that resolution were to pass?

DOZIER: I think the most important thing about that resolution is that it gets Congress thinking and talking about this use of force in case Russia uses weapons of mass destruction and the president wants to, say, strike a plant inside Russia where these things are made.

But when you look at a lot of the thing is already in the president's arsenal, the U.S. president is allowed to use nuclear weapons without anyone's approval. It's pretty certain he can also order cyber counterattacks without getting Congress' permission.

And, well, everything we have seen so far, including the veiled threat of a nuclear counterstrike, hasn't dissuaded Putin. So, unfortunately, it's a good internal discussion inside the United States. But I don't think it's going to stop Putin's actions one bit.

CABRERA: And that's the biggest challenge right now, is what could get Putin to stop more atrocities and more horrific destruction that we're seeing?

Kim Dozier and General Wesley Clark, thank you so much for your time and expertise.

Still ahead: a major development connected to this:

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: So, look, all I want to do is this. I just want to find 11,780 votes.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

CABRERA: Did former President Trump break the law with that infamous request to Georgia's top election official? A special grand jury was just selected in this probe. What it all means just ahead.

And the manhunt for an inmate charged with murder and the corrections officer who apparently helped him escape. A warrant is now issued for her. Her colleagues are shocked. The sheriff on this case joins us live here in the CNN NEWSROOM.

Stay right there.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:17:50]

CABRERA: This just in.

A special grand jury was just selected in Georgia as part of the investigation into whether former President Donald Trump and others illegally tried to influence the 2020 election in that state.

This special grand jury will now have subpoena power. That means ordering witnesses to testify, crucial for the Fulton County district attorney's efforts to build a case that could lead to an indictment or indictments.

For more than a year, DA Fani Willis has been investigating whether Trump or his allies broke the law when they tried to convince state officials to reverse Trump's 2020 Georgia defeat. That pressure campaign culminated with this infamous phone call between then- President Trump and Georgia's Republican secretary of state.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

TRUMP: So, look, all I want to do is this.

I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have, because we won the state.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

CABRERA: CNN political correspondent Sara Murray joins us now at the Fulton County courthouse.

And, Sara, this jury selection began today. The proceedings only took about two hours to select the 26 people who will participate. What more can you tell us?

SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, the judge and the district attorney here made pretty quick work of it this morning. They were whittling down this pool of about 200 potential jurors.

They ended up picking 26. It includes three alternates. It's a diverse group, which is what you would expect to see choosing a special grand jury here in the Atlanta area. And they will get to work beginning in June.

CABRERA: And so what exactly then will that work entail? What will this special grand jury be doing and for how long?

MURRAY: Well, this is a grand jury that is going to have pretty broad investigative powers.

And they have up to a year to work on this investigation. Here was the judge today explaining to the potential jurors what kind of investigative authorities they will have on a special grand jury.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JUDGE ROBERT MCBURNEY, FULTON COUNTY SUPERIOR COURT: You have investigative authority as well. You will be able to ask questions of these witnesses if you have them.

[13:20:00]

You have subpoena power. You may decide after you hear from what witness F that you want to hear from witness G. You can request that that person be subpoenaed. There may be documents that come to your mind that you would want to see as part of your investigation. You can request that documents get subpoenaed as well.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MURRAY: Now, district attorney Fani Willis has already spoken to about 50 witnesses in this case voluntarily. She wants to subpoena roughly 30 more.

And, as you see, the grand jurors could decide they want to take it further than that. Now, even though this special grand jury is seated for a year, Willis has said she hopes to make a decision about whether to bring any charges before the end of this year. So, this grand jury, they will do their investigation. They will make

a recommendation about whether she should pursue charges, and then Willis will take it from there.

CABRERA: OK, Sara Murray, we know you're all over it. Thank you.

For more now, let's bring in CNN legal analyst, former federal prosecutor Jennifer Rodgers.

Jen, good to see you. We all heard the phone call of Trump asking Georgia's top election official to find the exact number of votes needed to overcome Biden's margin. Here we are, over a year later. It still feels like a seismic piece of evidence in this case. But what else does this special grand jury need to gather to bolster the case?

JENNIFER RODGERS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, Ana, I think they want to hear from some of these witnesses.

For example, Brad Raffensperger, the secretary of state, has not voluntarily appeared. They certainly will want his sense of things and other witnesses who haven't cooperated yet. Apparently, there are 30 people on their list.

They will also be looking really strongly at state of mind, anything they can learn about whether, when Trump said find those votes, he, of course, knew that he had lost the election and he needed those votes to overturn the fair election. So that's what they will be looking at most specifically.

CABRERA: Do you expect Trump himself to be subpoenaed?

RODGERS: I don't. You rarely subpoena the ultimate target of your investigation. He has an obvious Fifth Amendment right not to incriminate himself.

So I would expect them to make their case by speaking to everyone around him who will know his state of mind from their conversations and so on.

CABRERA: We have some newly revealed texts that Georgia's deputy secretary of state sent to then-Trump Chief of Staff Mark Meadows during that damning phone call.

And she says: "Need to end this call. I don't think this will be productive much longer."

Meadows replies, "OK," and then ends it.

She writes: "Let's save the relationship. Thank you. Wow."

We know Raffensperger had reservations about the whole thing and was dodging White House calls at the time. If he and his staff had a bad feeling about what the Trump team was asking them to do, and they testify to that effect, does that have a bearing on the case?

RODGERS: It can. I mean, ultimately, you need the state of mind of the person or persons being charged. But it's relevant evidence if the people that they were talking to thought that they were after a certain thing. So, certainly evidence of what they said, the tone, what it seemed like they were after with all of those implications will be relevant evidence for ultimately a jury at trial, if it gets that far, to infer the state of mind of the defendants who are on trial.

So they definitely want to hear from Raffensperger, all of his folks on his staff who had anything to do with these communications. That will be probably first on their list, I would think.

CABRERA: Raffensperger, the secretary of state, is up for reelection.

And so, as far as timing goes, Jen, the DA says she's waiting until after George's primary this month to call witnesses, because some of the potential witnesses like Raffensperger and others are on the ballot. What's your take on that decision to withhold moving forward until after this primary election?

RODGERS: Well, I think she just wants to schedule things in a way that is not a hardship on her witnesses.

I mean, ultimately, it doesn't much matter for their investigation whether he's in office or out of office. So it's not really a political calculation. I think she's just trying to make things convenient for her witnesses, which is common for prosecutors to do. You want people to cooperate with you to the extent possible.

So I think it's just about that. And I think Raffensperger's reluctance to come forward voluntarily probably has been because he's running as Republican in a Republican state. So he's trying to minimize the damage of seeming to cooperate with this investigation. But he's not going to have a choice once a subpoena comes down.

CABRERA: And, in the past, he has said he would cooperate if subpoenaed specifically.

Jennifer Rodgers, I appreciate it. Thank you very much.

Now to the manhunt for an inmate charged with murder and the corrections officer accused of helping him escape. A warrant was just issued for that officer, who was just about to retire.

The sheriff on this case joins us next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:29:38]

CABRERA: We are following new developments in the massive manhunt for an accused murderer who escaped from an Alabama prison.

We are told a warrant has now been issued for the corrections officer who was last seen with inmate Casey White. That corrections officer is deputy Vicky White. The two aren't related, but could be working together.

And the local sheriff is now warning officers all across the country to be careful.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RICK SINGLETON, LAUDERDALE COUNTY, ALABAMA, SHERIFF: There's going to be some law enforcement officers somewhere in this country or this state that is going to come across this guy.