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Large Smoke Plume Seen Over Mariupol; Israel Slams Lavrov's Hitler Comments, Summons Ambassador; Interview with Rep. Pramila Jayapal (D-WA): Title 42 that Rejected Migrants at Border Set to Expire, Canceling Student Debt; Judge to Decide if Survivors' Reparations Case Goes to Trial. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired May 02, 2022 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:30:00]

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: New video just into CNN, a large black plume of smoke in the vicinity of the steel plant in Mariupol, which is the last Ukrainian stronghold in that city. We see that rising over the city in this new video. Deputy commander with the Azov Battalion at the plant confirmed to CNN that the smoke in the video was coming from the steel plant which was hit by a military strike. Now the Ukrainian fighters say they hope to evacuate the 100 adults and 20 children still trapped in that steel plant.

Meanwhile, there are stunning comments from Russia's foreign minister sparking outrage in Israel and beyond. In an interview, Sergey Lavrov repeated Russia's claims that it's trying to de-nazify Ukraine, dismissing the fact that Ukrainian President Zelenskyy is Jewish. Lavrov claimed Adolph Hitler had, quote, Jewish blood.

Clare Sebastian joins us now. Clare, Israel is -- leaders in Israel are reacting very strongly to these claims, what are they saying.

CLARE SEBASTIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Anderson, overwhelming outage in Israel about this. The context, of course, saying that Israel has tried to tread a fine line so far in the conflict. Yes, it's condemned the war, it's condemned Russia's actions provided aid to Ukraine but stopped short of joining Western sanctions on Russia. So, this could threaten the fragile balancing act that they've been trying to keep up. This is what the Foreign Minister Yair Lapid tweeted. He said --

Foreign minister Lavrov's remarks are both an unforgivable and outrageous statement as well as a terrible historical error. Jews did not murder themselves in the Holocaust. The lowest level of racism against Jews is to accuse Jews themselves of antisemitism.

And Israel's Foreign ministry has actually summoned the Russian ambassador to Israel on Monday over these comments. So, clearly this is putting a strain on that relationship. Something that actually neither side would have wanted -- Anderson.

COOPER: Germany has also agreed to support a embargo on Russian oil.

SEBASTIAN: Yes, very significant. If Germany is going to support it, that means we have serious momentum toward an embargo on Russian oil. This could be part of a sixth package of sanctions that the European Union is now discussing. I want you to listen, Anderson, to what the German finance minister said to CNN earlier today about this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRISTIAN LINDER, GERMAN FINANCE MINISTER: Now, we are ready. We have prepared ourselves to be less dependent on Russian energy imports. We can reduce the imports, starting with coal, then oil. It will take more time to be independent from Russian natural gas imports. So, in the end, we will be completely independent from Russia.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SEBASTIAN: This would be a major sea change of course for Europe. It would involve some economic pain for Germany and other countries that join up in the form of higher prices, potential disruptions. But this is something that appears they are willing to move forward with now. So, just a matter of time really until we get there. Europe, though, not completely united. The likes of Hungary have still said they won't join this. But there are reports, Anderson, that the EU might carve out exemptions perhaps for Hungary and Slovakia, which is also very reliant on Russian energy or even longer transitions. So, we expect to hear more on this in the coming days.

COOPER: Clare Sebastian, appreciate the update. Thanks so much.

Alisyn let's go back to you.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: OK, Anderson, thank you very much.

So, back here lawmakers from both parties are imploring the president to keep in place that pandemic era immigration policy known as Title 42 but not our next guest. Congresswoman Pramila Jayapal joins us to explain why.

[15:35:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: Despite the legal pushback, the Biden administration says it still wants to end Title 42 at the U.S. border. That's a Trump era pandemic rule that allows authorities to cite public health to quickly eject migrants trying to enter the country. If the rule is lifted this month, DHS officials believe the number of migrants apprehended at the southern border could climb as high as 18,000 per day. That's triple the amount they're currently seeing. Homeland Security Chief Alejandro Mayorkas says the U.S. is ready to handle that surge.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: There is no question that if, in fact, we reach that number that is going to be an extraordinary strain on our system. But we are preparing for it, and that is why the plan we have prepared calls for a number of different actions, not just in the domestic arena, but also with our partners to the south. (END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Joining us now is Democratic Congresswoman Pramila Jayapal, Congresswoman, great to see you. So, let's start there with Title 42. I know that you are ready to end that, but many of your even fellow Democrats say it is too soon. I'll just give you one example.

[15:40:00]

This comes from Congressman Tim Ryan of Ohio. He says quote --

Prematurely ending this policy without a path forward does nothing to keep America safe, support our Border Patrol agents, protect asylum seekers or bring about the comprehensive fix our immigration system needs.

And he's far from alone. So, what do you say to the people who say we're just not ready for this?

REP. PRAMILA JAYAPAL (D-WA): Well, Alisyn, great to see you. But first thing I would say is that Title 42 is a public health law. It was used by the Trump administration to circumvent actual immigration law, and the Trump administration had a strategy of ending all the legal pathways that we had into the country, even though we didn't have sufficient amount of those. Our immigration system has been broken for a long time.

So, we should be clear that the Trump administration used Title 42 in ways it never should have. But on top of that, Title 42 has done nothing to support orderly processes at the border. In fact, it's done the opposite. It's thrown a lot of chaos in because asylum seekers have no legal way to enter the country, and so, this is immigration law should be -- you know, we should respect the fact that we have both in domestic law and international law the right for asylum seekers to seek asylum. And if we want to focus on fixing the immigration system, then we should pass the kinds of lawful pathways in immigration reforms that we need to do.

But Republicans are not going to be willing to do that because they have continued to use immigrants as a wedge issue and a political football and it's disgusting. They should actually step up and help us to pass those reforms.

CAMEROTA: I mean, as you know, every administration has been bedeviled by the immigration, some sort of comprehensive immigration plans for decades. And I hear what you're saying about its origins, which may not have been in the purest of motives. But just practically speaking do you think the border can handle 18,000 border crossers a day?

JAYAPAL: Well, I don't think that's what's going to happen, Alisyn. Those numbers include repeat border crossings, and part of the reason is because all Title 42 did is expel people across the border. It didn't actually process them, and so you have multiple people who are trying to cross over and over again. So those numbers are way inflated, number one. And number two, yes, I actually think that the numbers would go down eventually. Maybe not immediately because there's such a buildup of people at the other side of the border.

But if we actually implement orderly ways, and we allow people to even apply in their home countries instead of coming to the border, all things the Trump administration threw out, then that's how we're going to actually see that situation improve. And let's just be clear, we're all pushing for Ukrainian refugees to be allowed entry into the country. We should be able to do that for Haitians and other Latin American countries, asylum seekers that are coming to the border as well. This is a very discriminatory way to go about the process and a disorderly one thanks to the illegal implementation of Title 42.

CAMEROTA: OK, let's move on to student debt and forgiveness of student debt. And I know that you think that student debt should be forgiven. I think $50,000 worth of it. But let's talk about the unintended consequences of that. Because certainly, I understand the impulse for students that would be wonderful, and life changing. But for other Americans, there could be unintended consequences. For instance, a report from the Committee for Responsible Federal Budget estimated that cancelling all $1.6 trillion in federal student loan debt would increase inflation by .1 to .5 percentage over the next 12 months, and of course that is -- this is no time that anybody wants to hear about inflation being increased.

JAYAPAL: Well, Alisyn, first of all, I wish we were going to cancel all the student debt, but President Biden has been clear that that is not what he's going to do. But I will just say, that if it was 50,000, that same report said the impact would be negligible on inflation for such a small amount, but also on top of that, let's be clear why the Republicans are attacking this policy. It's because it's incredibly popular across Republicans, independents, and Democrats, why, because 99 percent of the people that have student debt, that 45 million borrowers that have student debt are people who did not go to ivy league schools.

They are struggling under the crushing burden of student debt. 40 percent of them almost have never even gotten a college degree. So, this is helping regular folks across the country, and it's not just young people, Alisyn, the fastest growing demographic with people with student loans now is seniors. So, people who are living on fixed incomes but either are still paying off their student debt or are paying off the debt of their kids or grandkids.

[15:45:00]

So, this affects a wide group of people, and it will help lower costs in this inflationary time and really bring relief to millions of people across the country.

CAMEROTA: I mean, one other argument against it is that it doesn't get to the root problem and that is the skyrocketing costs of tuition. I mean, they've just, you know, gone up exponentially, inexplicably actually. So, here's a couple of stats about that. The average tuition and fees at private universities have jumped 144 percent in the past ten years. Out-of-state tuition and fees at public universities has risen 171 percent, in-state tuition at public universities has grown 211 percent. And so, it just doesn't -- in other words, you can forgive the current debt but then we're just in this vicious cycle of accruing more debt.

JAYAPAL: Well, you're exactly right. It's a two-part process. We got to forgive the existing debt where the federal government is actually profiting on the interest that people are paying just to get an education, which is something we tell people to do because it helps our economy. But on top of that, you're right, that's why I have a college for all bill. I've got a plan for that as well. To make tuition free for families earning up to 125,000.

The federal government has disinvested over the last decade in education. That's a big reason why tuition has increased so much. And we have to get that under control. And we have to recognize that investing in people's education is a boon for our economy, Alisyn. It helps us in the long run and the short run and the medium term to build the kind of skills that we need and support our work force to be able to take care of themselves.

CAMEROTA: Congresswoman Pramila Jayapal, thanks for tackling all of this. Great to talk to you.

JAYAPAL: Thank you, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: Right now, in Oklahoma, a judge is holding a hearing to decide whether reparations, a reparations lawsuit from survivors and descendants of the Tulsa Race Massacre will go forward. We have the details next.

[15:50:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: Today marks a significant moment for the last survivors of the 1921 Tulsa Race Massacre and their fight for reparations. An Oklahoma judge is hearing their case today and will decide if it can go to trial.

The deadly massacre claimed the lives of at least 300 African Americans whose entire community of Greenwood -- known as Black Wall Street -- was burned to the ground. CNN's Omar Jimenez is in Tulsa for the proceedings. So, Omar, the last three survivors, each one is over the age of 100, are they there at today's hearing?

OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Alisyn, not only are they here, but they're sitting front row in this hearing inside the closed courtroom behind me here. Representative Sheila Jackson Lee also in attendance. And remember, to put this in perspective, this is a hearing just to decide if they can actually go to trial. And as their attorney, the attorney for the victims, put it, between these three over 100-year-olds, they have waited 300-plus years just to have a day in court, which again, we'll see if it actually happens.

Now part of what the lawsuit is alleging here is that area leadership thwarted efforts to rebuild the Greenwood area, but also promoted tourism at the site of this massacre and all the while victims, three of them still living, were not only never compensated but also are still feeling the effects of what happened in 1921 today. So, part of what they're asking for or seeking are financial reparations for loss of life and property during the massacre, the creation of a victims compensations fund, and financial reparations from any profited made by the government for tourists visiting the Greenwood area to learn about the massacre, but of course, that hearing is ongoing just to see if they can proceed forward -- Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: If so, then what happens?

JIMENEZ: Well, if it gets to trial, as the attorneys for the victims argued today, then they'll actually, be able to prove their case. And that's part of what they've emphasized over the course of this. They don't need to prove everything here. They just have to show -- meet the burden enough to proceed to the next step.

Now, on the other side of things, the defendants here, which make up a variety of city leadership roles here, have argued that on the other side of things that they are exempt from liability in cases of civil disobedience, riot, insurrection, that too much time has passed since this happened. Of course, over 100 years ago at this point, and that the allegations are too vague. That there are no concrete injuries stemming from what happened.

However, the survivors are arguing the generational wealth stripped from them so suddenly still reverberates today. And to quote one of the attorneys inside, again, in this hearing that's ongoing, the attorney said that injustice plus time does not equal justice. And that is the crux of their argument, of course, to even just get to that next step -- Alisyn.

Omar Jimenez, it'll be fascinating to see what happens today. Thank you very much for reporting.

[15:55:00]

Well, a desperate effort is under way in Mariupol to evacuate thousands of people from that city. We are live on the ground with an update in Ukraine.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: You will remember the Ukrainian fighters on Snake Island who told the Russian navy to go "F" themselves. Well, several of those fighters were presumed killed. Including a marine who was called "The Leery."

[16:00:00]

Well, it turns out he was held prisoner by the Russians and eventually released in a prisoner swap, and as soon as he was released, he went to Kharkiv to propose to his girlfriend of two years. And they were married over the weekend. "The Leery's" military unit said the couple's feelings, quote, were strengthened by distance and time and the separation and uncertainty gave them a real understanding that life is fragile.

And "THE LEAD" with Jake Tapper starts right now.