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Supreme Court Poised To Strike Down Roe v. Wade In Draft Opinion; Oklahoma Criminalizes Performing Or Attempting To Perform Abortions; Interview With Alexis McGill Johnson, President and CEO, Planned Parenthood Federation Of America: Abortion Rights And The Next Elections. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired May 03, 2022 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:30:00]

REP. PRAMILA JAYAPAL (D-WA): Whether it's in the White House or whether it's in the Supreme Court. And that cannot -- we need to really put everything we have into this. And I think we have to push for the filibuster. I think the president needs to get behind that push, and I think he has to be very clear and we all have to be very clear that this is a critical moment for us.

I had an abortion, Victor, and I am lucky to be in a state that has continued to support reproductive rights. But I know how complex, and difficult that decision was, and I'll be dammed if I leave that decision to anybody other than me and my doctor and the people that choose to be a part of that. Nobody else is going to be here to take care of a child that I am forced to have. My economic security is at risk, and that is what millions of people across the country are saying. It cannot stand, and we will not let it stand.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: Congresswoman Pramila Jayapal, thank you so much.

JAYAPAL: Thank you, Victor.

BLACKWELL: All right, we will stay with this potential seismic ruling. More on the legal, the medical and political fallout, next.

[04:35:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLACKWELL: All right, this just in. Former president and former first lady, Barack and Michelle Obama have released a joint statement on the late Supreme Court draft. A writing that if it becomes final, quote, it will relegate the most intensely personal decision someone can make to the whims of politicians and ideologues. They also urged those who support abortion rights to take action and, quote, join with the activists who have been sounding the alarm on this issue for years. Vote alongside them on or before November 8th and in every other election.

Joining me now Imani Gandy. She is senior editor of Law and Policy at Rewire News Group. Also with me, Dr. Bobby Kumar. He is a medical director for Primary and Trans Care for Planned Parenthood Gulf coast, and CNN chief political analyst Gloria Borger. Gloria I'm going to start with you because I've got the statement from the former president in my hand. Where do Democrats go with this considering the numbers that they have on Capitol Hill? Considering also that vote that Chuck Schumer said is coming.

GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: All right look, they would like to codify Roe v. Wade, but it's highly unlikely they're going to be able to do it because of people like Joe Manchin who is pro-life, and doesn't want to change the filibuster, as you know. So, they'd have to get 60 votes, and that would be almost impossible at this point. So, where do they go? They go home. They communicate with their constituents, and they say, this is what this election is going to be about.

You heard the president earlier in the day sort of enlarge the issue say it's not just about abortion, that it is about privacy, that this ruling, as it is written so far -- and we don't know whether it's going to become the final ruling or not -- can affect everything, including previous rulings on gay marriage, maybe even interracial marriage. So, I think while the Democrats are saying this is what they would like to do to codify it, unless they got rid of the filibuster and the president seems not willing to do that at this point, they're going to have to take it to the voters.

BLACKWELL: Doctor, tell me about the conversations that have happened in the last few hours since the draft was leaked with patients, with your colleagues.

DR. BHAVIK KUMAR, TEXAS STATE LEAD FOR THE COMMITTEE TO PROTECT HEALTH CARE: Yes, so here in Texas for the past eight months, living under Senate Bill-Kuhn 8, which is one of the most egregious and aggressive laws that we have in the country. We've essentially been living in a post rural world. And for decades now we've seen law to law be introduced and passed and enacted and we've had patients call us being confused, questioning whether or not they can access an abortion.

And no matter what laws pass and no matter what a court decides and no matter what document is leaked, people will continue to need access to abortions. So, that's our patients concerns. Can I still get care here? Can you help me? I can't be pregnant. And we're continuing to do that work. It's important to underline, today abortion remains legal in all 50 states throughout the country.

BLACKWELL: Imani, Dr. Kumar there describes confusion after this leaked draft. It's now been confirmed by the Chief Justice. So, for the next several weeks until the actual opinion is published, is this the space that the country lives in or should it hasten maybe sooner release, the sooner publishing of a final decision?

IMANI GANDY, SENIOR EDITOR OF LAW AND POLICY, REWIRE NEWS GROUP: I think this is just the state that we're going to have to live in as a country. I thought for a while that this was going to be one of those big cases that the court doesn't release until the last day of the term thinking end of June. And I don't think that that is going to change. But what I think this does is it allows conservatives to sort of soft

launch a role reversal, and to sort of figure out what the backlash is going to be and to perhaps wait for that backlash to dwindle so when the opinion, the official opinion is released in June or whenever it may be released between now and then, the country will have already gotten used to this sort of post Roe world where Roe is reversed.

And I think any idea that people are going to rise up, I question whether that's the case. Because as the doctor just said, Texas has been living under the SB-8 regime in a post-Roe world since September of last year, and there haven't been uprising. People haven't taken to the streets except for locally. So, I hope there will be a national uprising, but I'm concerned that the stomach for that isn't there.

[04:40:00]

BLACKWELL: Gloria, there's a really distinct contrast between the primary focus from Democrats who are hearing from and from Republicans. The statements that are streaming in from former president, governors, members of Congress, focuses on what this would mean for abortion rights, for women's health. The Republicans are starting with the leak, and that this was leaked by someone at the Supreme Court. Just tell us what that shows us, the priorities of these two parties.

BORGER: Well, the Republicans, I think, feel that it's more to their political advantage to talk about leak itself, which as John Roberts said is egregious. And I agree with John Roberts, it is egregious. And they're point is -- Josh Hawley came out and said set it, although as far as I can tell there is no proof of this -- that Democrats leaked this.

We don't know who leaked this. Whoever leaked it did it for some reason. Did Republicans leak it to try and convince a wavering justice or so? Did Democrats, you know, leak it to try and get the ball rolling on this question of a public reaction and outcry on Roe. We just don't know the answer.

And the fact of the leak itself lets us in to understanding that the court is political. And has been political. And the president talked about Bork -- Justice Bork whom he defeated years ago. And since that moment I think it's hard to deny that you know that the court is political, that people don't tell the truth at their confirmation hearings. They don't tell how they really feel, and we know this in clip after clip that we've run today. And Susan Collins all but came out and said she was lied to but Supreme Court Justices Gorsuch and Kavanaugh.

So, you know, this is kind of open the Pandora's box on the question of what the court is really like. Are these people really a bunch of politicians in robes. And how divided the country is, and that's how the reaction has been. The Democrats talking about Roe, the Republicans trying to avoid it because Roe is, you know, popular in this country. And trying to talk about the Democrats whom they say have leaked it, they do not know. We do not know.

BLACKWELL: Yes, Chief Justice Roberts says there's going to be an investigation.

BORGER: Yes.

BLACKWELL: Hopefully, they will one day know. Gloria Borger, Imani Gandy, Dr. Bhavik Kumar, thank you.

Ahead, the head of Planned Parenthood joins me to discuss the leaked Supreme Court draft opinion that would strike down Roe v. Wade and the next steps.

[04:45:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLACKWELL: A Ukrainian railway official said Russian strikes hit six locations along train lines around Lviv in western Ukraine. There were no casualties reported. But he said the damage to their infrastructure was severe, and many other parts of the city are now without power. The city's mayor asked people to stay in shelters as fires continue to burn west of the city.

Police in Nevada now say a person discovered inside a barrel at Lake Mead was likely shot to death several decades ago. According to Las Vegas police this person was killed sometime in the mid-70s to early 80s. That was based on the victims clothing and shoes. Investigators are now trying to identify that victim. This discovery comes as the water level in Lake Mead continues to plunge. As of Monday, the water level was about 160 feet below its 2000 level.

And a big election day in Ohio, primary races there could give us an idea of just how much influence former President Trump has over the Republican Party. The latest is coming up.

[04:50:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLACKWELL: If the leaked Supreme Court draft that proposes to overturn Roe v. Wade becomes law, several states could swiftly move to advance outright abortion bans. Some states have been taking action. In Oklahoma, the state's Republican governor recently signed a law that makes it illegal to perform or attempt to perform an abortion. There is no exception for rape or incest. Only if the mother's life is at risk.

CNN's Lucy Kafanov is in Oklahoma City. So, what's the response, Lucy, to this leaked draft opinion and how could this further restrict women seeking abortion in Oklahoma?

LUCY KAFANOV, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Victor, that depends on which side of the issue you are on. Oklahoma is one of 13 states that has so-called trigger laws in place. Which are effectively abortion bans that would kick in almost immediately if the Supreme Court decides to overturn -- completely overturn its precedence.

Now, the Republican-led legislature and the Republican Governor here, Kevin Stitt, have already signed several laws in recent months or passed laws through the legislature that severely restrict abortion. Including one that is supposed to take effect this summer. Now this law would make performing abortions illegal at any stage of the pregnancy. It makes an exception to save the life of the pregnant woman. But the provider could potentially face ten years in prison or $100,000 fine or both.

Last week, the legislature passed two laws including one which is effectively a copycat law of that Texas law. And it would make abortions illegal as early as six weeks into the pregnancy. That's before most women even know they're pregnant. The governor expected to sign those into law at any moment now. And I spoke earlier to the House Democratic minority leader of the state representative. She told me that women who want to get an abortion in Oklahoma are already extremely limited in their options. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. EMILY VIRGIN, (D) OKLAHOMA HOUSE MINORITY LEADER: They are already severely restricted. We have very few abortion providers in Oklahoma, and those that do still exist are, of course, right now overburdened by folks coming in from Texas.

[04:55:00]

And so, we can't meet the need that we currently have in Oklahoma. If abortion is no longer constitutionally protected at the federal level, then providers and patients in Oklahoma are facing a complete ban. And they would have to go to other states where we know that abortion is already protected by the states themselves.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAFANOV: And a quick context, Victor, there are only four clinics offering abortion services here in Oklahoma. If they are not able to operate, women across the region will be impacted -- Victor.

BLACKWELL: Lucy Kafanov for us there in Oklahoma city, thank you.

The protesters have been out on both sides of the abortion debate.

Joining me now, Alexis McGill Johnson, the president and CEO of Planned Parenthood. Good to have you back. Let's start here. We have since the Mississippi law, the Texas law, you have been on several times, and we've talked about Planned Parenthood's warning about a rollback of Roe. Certainly, since the election of President Trump and the third Trump justice to be appointed to the court. Is there a strategy that is in place should the final opinion mirror what we saw published last night?

ALEXIS MCGILL JOHNSON, PRESIDENT AND CEO, PLANNED PARENTHOOD FEDERATION OF AMERICA: Well, Victor, thank you for having me back. I mean, you know, yes, we have been sounding the alarm along with all of our colleagues in the reproductive rights, health, and justice movement because we have seen at every turn. Whether it was the gerrymandering in the state legislatures, the introduction of, you know, nearly 600 restrictions just this year alone in the state legislative session. Or the slow turning of the federal judiciary including the Supreme Court, into a conservative bastion that is anti- women's health.

We have been saying the sky is falling, and I think what happened with this opinion being leaked last night, if it indeed is the close to the final opinion, was finally a demonstration that we were closing what we have been calling the believability gap. That people who, like me, right, who have, you know, grown up with this right under, you know, believing that we have this right to control our bodies. That no one would ever deign to take it away.

And I think what the court demonstrated last night is they are willing to do so if it is in fact the opinion. And so now that that believability gap is closed, the rage is out there. As you saw in the street at the rally. The rage is out there all across the country. And that is what we will be carrying into the midterms for all of those people who have made choices and votes to advance this kind of legislation. Those folks will be held accountable because we won't go back.

BLACKWELL: And what about the president who says that he's not prepared yet to back a filibuster change to codify Roe or the protections in federal law or for those Senators who say they don't support any legal change to counteract what is potentially coming from the Supreme Court?

JOHNSON: Look, we will be holding everybody accountable for what is within their purview to do right now. I think that the administration, both the president and the vice president issued strong statements today condemning what this draft opinion indicated and calling for a federal solution.

I think we still -- we heard from leader Schumer who talked about putting the women's Health Protection Act back on the floor. Those are opportunities for us to demonstrate, you know, who is on our side around protecting access to abortion rights and who isn't. And that accountability is key because that is what we'll be using going into the '22 election.

BLACKWELL: Justice Alito referenced eugenic. He wrote of abortion supporters.

Some supporters have been motivated by a desire to suppress the size of the African American population. It's beyond dispute Roe has had that demographic effect. A highly disproportionate percentage of aborted fetuses are black.

Margaret Singer, founder Planned Parenthood, supported eugenics by your organization's own characterization. It was a racist theory that society can be improved through planned breeding for desirable traits. He says that it's relevant. Where do you put its relevance?

JOHNSON: Look, I trust black women. At the end of the day, I trust them to make decisions about their own bodies and anything else is completely beside the point. I think this is one of those ways, rhetoric that they use to take away decisions that we are empowered to make under the Constitution currently. And I find it quite frankly offensive that that made its way into a draft opinion. It is just repeating anti-right wing talking points.

[16:00:00]

BLACKWELL: Well, Planned Parenthood thought enough of it to issue a statement on it in 2021 about her support, which the organization now denounces. Alexis McGill Johnson, thank you so much for being with us.

And "THE LEAD" with Jake Tapper starts right now.