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Source: 50 Buses Taken to Mairupol for Evacuations Were Left Empty, Not Used; Right Now: Heavy Fighting at Azovstal Steel Plant in Mariupol; Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired May 04, 2022 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:00:00]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: The news out of Ukraine, a source close the Mariupol evacuation effort tells CNN that 50 buses taken there ended up being left empty, not used, no one able to escape to safety on those buses.

That source says that Russian forces permitted the departure of only some evacuees from the Azovstal Steel plant that had become really their lifeboat through all these attacks but not a wider group of civilians. They say that starting today it is likely that civilians from the broader city of Mariupol will get out under the UN-led effort, not those in Azovstal. A lot remain there.

Right now heavy fighting underway across the city of Mariupol. The mayor says the Azovstal Steel plant is under attack. Officials say they have now lost contact with the Ukrainian fighters still there. Also this morning, the EU is targeting Russia once again.

A massive sanctions package proposed by the European Union could ban all Russian oil imports by the end of this year. That's earlier than originally planned. As well as remove the country's biggest bank from the SWIFT network, that has big impact for financial transactions.

All this as Russia says it will destroy -- attack NATO convoys of weapons headed into Ukraine. Let's being this morning though with CNN International Security Editor Nick Paton Walsh. He's reporting from Kryvyi Rih, Ukraine. Nick, this is remarkable, right.

So you met with some of the people, really a handful of people able to escape the steel plant on buses. There were many more buses, they're not being used. What does that tell us about all this?

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN INTERNATIONAL SECURITY EDITOR, CNN: Yes, look, I mean, this is according to a source I talked to close to the evacuation effort. We saw for the world five buses emerging with just over 100 evacuees from the Azovstal Steel plant. And possibly about 50 others according to the Ukrainian presidency that did get out.

But I understand that there were another 50 that were part or close to that evacuation effort that did not end up having people upon them. Remember, Jim, this initial evacuation effort was trying to do a number of things. Firstly, get the people who'd been evacuated from Azovstal, that first 100. There are still hundreds left in there as that Russian onslaught appears to be underway now. But also the hope have been as that convoy moved it would attract other civilians that would latch onto it, perhaps get part of it in their own vehicles.

Maybe join some of those buses as well. But those other buses, 50 I understand remained empty, and did not take people out. Unclear where the vehicles themselves are at the moment.

But this I think shows you that while we saw a moment of relief and hope on our screens yesterday as that small number of people emerged from Azovstal, that was a small number. And the larger hope that more could get out was not realized.

And I think it's fair to point the finger directly at the Russian Federation because they are essentially control all that territory and who can get in or out. The broader question is who can get out today while hearing the utterly devastating news about what's happening around the steel plant.

Today it seems highly unlikely anyone's going to be getting out over the past hours or in the future hours to come. The Mayor of Mariupol Vadym Boychenko saying they've lost contact with the defenders and people inside that steel plant.

Artillery, airstrikes, you name it being focused on there and the Russian defense minister saying that that area has been, quote, "Reliably blocked." I should point out we know for sure there are still hundreds of civilians in there, possibly 30 children. Ukrainian soldiers defending it, some Ukrainian soldiers wounded there as well.

And so, serious fears I think for exactly what happens to those people there. Here's what we heard through from one woman who emerged from the rubble and spoke to us yesterday about what it was like there.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OLGA, AZOVSTAL EVACUEE (through-translator): Everything I own, I have with me. I went to the basement with just a bag and left with it. I thank the boys who carried me out. Thanks to them. Lord bless them. I can't say anything bad about our soldiers there. Azov or not Azov. They held me in their hands, brought me out.

One of them wanted to lift me up but I said you can't. They took each others hands to lift me. It's hard to carry an old lady like me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PATON WALSH: Just one of so many people who came out yesterday having had a terrifying two months in the darkness. Blinking as they saw the sunlight for the first time, particularly Olga, she says you can't really see much, and it's still after two days of moving.

And the onslaught may be some horrifying bit by Moscow to try and gain some sort of control or final statement of domination over the steel plant ahead of the victory parades of May the 9th that Russia wants to run. But terrifying for those in that facility as it gets underway. Jim.

SCIUTTO: To your point, Nick, those people could get out if Russian forces allowed them. And they haven't shown much interest in doing that. And those lives hang in the balance. Nick Paton Walsh, thanks so much.

[10:05:00]

Well, the EU is proposing some new sanctions against Russia to punish Putin and the economy there for this "brutal aggression" against Ukraine.

CNN's Anna Stewart is in London with more. London, key questions here what new targets are these sanctions, and how soon do they become a reality?

ANNA STEWART, CNN REPORTER: So this is actually the sixth round of EU sanctions, but I think this is the most significant yet just in terms of what they're outlining in this proposal, one of the biggest one disconnecting Russia's bank, Sberbank.

That bank had had an exemption up until this point, and also a ban on Russian oil this year. Now that is a big advance on the current plan which was to end their reliance on Russian oil by 2027, and this would mean the EU follows in the footsteps of the U.S., Canada, the U.K., and Australia.

But this is more significant because the EU is Russia's biggest oil customer. Last year it brought in $95 billion worth of revenue, so this would really cost Russia -- it would hit it hard. The problem always with these sanctions though is as even the Kremlin spokesperson said today, these measures are a double-edged sword because it will also have a cost for Europe.

They rely on Russia for nearly a third of their oil imports, they need to replace that. This is a market that is tight, prices are high, and it will impact some EU member states more than others. Germany was opposed to this a few weeks ago, they are onboard, that is absolutely critical. But some other member states, Hungary, Slovakia they have been opposed. And looking at some of the comments we've had today, I think they still are.

So some sort of extension or exemption will likely have to be a part of that proposal we're seeing today in order to get them onboard -- it has to be a unanimous decision. The problem is if you do grant some of these countries an extension, others may want it as well and we're certainly (ph) hearing sounds even from Bulgaria at this stage. So, lots to work on but a very proposal.

Jim.

SCIUTTO: Meanwhile, Russia's still raking in billions, really, from gas and oil exports. Anna Stewart, thanks so much in London.

Here in the U.S. politics. Primaries in Ohio and Indiana last night were a boost to former President Trump's claim to be known as a kingmaker in the Republican Party. The race garnering the most attention, the effort to replace Ohio Senator Rob Portman. CNN projects now that J.D. Vance won the GOP nomination, this after getting a late boost from an endorsement from Trump.

CNN National Correspondent Kristen Holmes is live in Cleveland this morning.

Kristen, do we know from the numbers how much that endorsement moved this race?

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jim, if you look at Vance's trajectory it indicates that the endorsement really played an enormous role here in this race.

Remember, Vance was trailing in the polls until Donald Trump endorsed him which not only gave him a boost as he mentioned, it actually propelled him to the top of the pack where he clearly remained until victory last night. Now, this is something that Vance himself seemed to acknowledge in his victory speech. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

J.D. VANCE, APPARENT WINNER OF OH GOP SENATE PRIMARY: I have absolutely got to thank the 45th President of the United States Donald J. Trump, ladies and gentlemen. He wanted to write a story that this campaign would be the death of Donald Trump's America first agenda -- ladies and gentlemen, it ain't (ph) the death of the America first agenda.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: And it's important to note Jim, that outside groups poured millions of dollars into this race, trying to not let Vance be the candidate. But yet still, he did prevail again with that endorsement of the former president.

And then he viewed this election as a litmus test for the president. How strong was his grip, or is his grip still on the Republican Party? And if last night is any indication, the former president still holds an enormous amount of power and influence over the party.

Now, we did hear from sources close to Trump that he was "relieved," at the results, obviously aware of the impact that this could have on his brand. Vance will go up against Tim Ryan, the Democratic Congressman who won his primary last night in the fall for (ph) Rob Portman's seat. And just one thing to note, this is just the beginning of a very busy primary season, and there are a lot of other Trump endorsed candidates.

We'll be watching that very closely, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Kristen Holmes, thanks very much.

Joining me now to break it all down, is CNN Political Director David Chalian. So David, I've actually got a question for you. Mitch McConnell's

concern is that the Trump candidates actually stronger in the primary than in the general. And he is concerned that some of the folks that might win the primary will weaken his chance of particularly say, gaining back Senate control. Do the numbers in what we saw so far support that?

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: I think Mitch McConnell may have concerns in specific places about that, I'm not sure he's overly concerned about Ohio, a state that Donald Trump won twice in '16 and '20 by eight points. It's a state that has been trending more Republican than sort of that classic version of Ohio you and I think about --

SCIUTTO: Right.

CHALIAN: -- from a while back, about sort of being the mother of all battleground states. That's not the nature of the state in Ohio now.

[10:10:00]

There are some other places where Mitch McConnell and Donald Trump have been sort of not aligned in races, but Ohio wasn't one of them. I mean, and so Mitch McConnell may not think J.D. Vance is like, the best candidate possible, but he didn't get involved here in some way that was significant to try and prevent J.D. Vance from becoming the candidate.

Here's the thing that I think is important to note about Trump's sway here. There is, yes, Donald Trump in a crowded field of Trump aligned candidates can pick one and help get them over the finish line. And J.D. Vance did exactly that.

So, credit to Donald Trump, he does have that kind of Midas touch with Republican base voters in a crowded field. That's not how the dynamic of every one of these primaries going forward, we'll see how others play out, Jim.

But the other thing that's important here, it's not just his ability to back someone and get them to be (ph) the winner. Most of these candidates were running in a very Trump MAGA aligned way. So I think that's the far bigger point here is that Donald Trump's version of the Republican Party is the dominant version. They were all except one really seeking his endorsement.

So yes, Vance got it and it helped him over the hump. That will stand to help Donald Trump's stature and prowess inside the party, especially as other 2024 potential hopefuls look at him.

SCIUTTO: OK.

CHALIAN: But I think this is a party still very much in his image.

SCIUTTO: OK. Forgive me for discussing beyond Donald Trump --

CHALIAN: Yes -- no, please. SCIUTTO: Because there are other issues that are moving voters. As

you look at this, what are the driving issues? Certainly inflation, pocketbook issues, economic approval ratings for Biden? What do you see in the primaries as in indicator for the general election as the issues driving voters?

CHALIAN: Yes, I mean, there is no doubt that the economy and inflation is everything right now in this political climate. We are seeing an American electorate that is perceiving the economy in very negative ways. And that is hurting President Biden's standing, especially on that key issue of the economy --

SCIUTTO: Yes.

CHALIAN: -- his numbers are way underwater. And you know, the economy drives vote choices, how people experience it, the prices they pay at the grocery store, at the pump -- that is stuff that really matters, and we'll have to see where we are in November, but right now that is the overhang issue.

SCIUTTO: Abortion rights.

CHALIAN: So -- I was going to say. And now, just this week, we have seen this issue with this leaked brief from the Supreme Court about being poised to potentially overturn Roe vs. Wade. Democrats are now trying to seize on that to see, hey we've seen in all the numbers about the midterms that the Democratic enthusiasm is at a disadvantage.

Republicans are more enthused to get out and vote this year. Well, now Democrats are saying, have we with this Supreme Court decision found the issue that can enliven our base, and bring back some of those Independents that have drifted away in the last year and a half of Biden's term.

SCIUTTO: (Inaudible) a big focus --

CHALIAN: Exactly.

SCIUTTO: --of 2020.

CHALIAN: Exactly.

SCIUTTO: Is that a mover and a shaker here?

CHALIAN: (Inaudible).

SCIUTTO: David Chalian, always great to have you.

This morning, a damning report on former President Trump's Department of Homeland Security. A DHS watchdog said that the agency led by a Trump appointee for acting secretary appears to have deliberately downplayed Russian interference in the 2020 election, in part due to politics.

According to the Homeland Security Inspector General, DHS officials delayed and altered intelligence reports related to Russian meddling. Report also states then acting DHS Secretary Chad Wolf participated in the review process multiple times, despite lacking a formal role in that process.

The IG also followed up on a July 2020 meeting, mentioned by a whistleblower who claimed Wolf had asked for the product to be held. Why? Because it made Trump -- made the president at the time, look bad. The IG's office interviewed Wolf, who denied saying this.

Still to come, the leak of that Supreme Court draft opinion showing the power of the new Conservative majority, how it could undermine other decisions that previously had precedent, had been reviewed by this court and by others over the years.

Also happening now, court trial just resumed in Virginia in the Johnny Depp defamation case. We are expecting Amber Heard to take the stand for the first time today.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:18:51]

SCIUTTO: A draft opinion leaked that the Supreme Court is poised to strike down Roe v. Wade after 50 years being the law of the land has sparked a great deal of uncertainty in the U.S. about what follows. It does leave little doubt about just how poerwful the conservative majority on the court and more broadly in the judiciary has become.

Joining me now to discuss the implications of the decision but also the power of that conservative majority is Gloria Browne-Marshall. She's a Constitutional Law Professor at John Jay College of Criminal Justice. Great to have you back. I should also mention also the author of "She Took Justice: The Black Woman Law and Power".

First I wonder if you could paint a picture for our viewers, particularly women, about what this country will look like in terms of abortion rights assuming the court goes ahead with this decision as the draft opinion showed its stance? Half the country will have it and half will not?

GLORIA BROWNE-MARSHALL, CONSTITUTIONAL LAW PROFESSOR, JOHN JAY COLLEGE OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE: Well half the country will have it and those states that do allow the termination of pregnancies will see an influx of women arriving to those clinics. They will see people coming from across the country to try to have some control over their body and their pregnancies.

[10:20:00]

You'll also see at the time in which this decision is rendered the trigger as they've been called, these decisions by many of the state legislative bodies to implement immediate bans on abortions.

And so, perhaps criminalizing abortions, and therefore the arrests and almost a type of brown shirt calling out of neighbor against neighbor of who may be planning on having an abortion. Who might be participating in the -- in the (inaudible). I mean, just think about the people who are then to be pointed out.

As we saw in these other states they wanted to criminalize and said that anybody who knows anything about a person who was getting an abortion, had an abortion, participated in it can be then called to account.

And then the last thing we need to consider is the fact that there'll be women trying to perform their own abortions. And so, there are going to be health hazards and deaths that come from that.

SCIUTTO: I want to ask you this because it is worth noting that not all anti-abortion advocates have maximalist positions, right, about this. Some conservative advocates support the most restrictive laws including no exceptions for rape, incest, or even danger to the mother's health. Others do support exceptions.

And then at the other end of the spectrum, you have some people who support the rights but are comfortable with some changes, for instance, to the timeline on viability from the 24 weeks as it stood under Roe v. Wade.

I wondered, does that then lead as states would be granted this power to a patchwork of different standards from state to state around the country?

BROWNE-MARSHALL: Oh, definitely. There will not only be a patchwork of different standards but there will be mass confusion. And the problem that we also have is the fact that this opens up to a -- to a court that is, you know, been asked to decide whether or not six weeks, was what the Mississippi was about, the Dobbs versus Jackson Women's Health, this court went beyond what Mississippi wanted.

And so that also means we have a U.S. Supreme Court that's not in a credible position to decide these challenges when a woman or other groups do challenge a state law. When there's a complete ban that means where do we go from here?

State courts will have more power, federal courts will have more power to make these individual decisions based on what each state legislator wants to do.

SCIUTTO: Yes, it's a great point because there have been some discussion of a sort of Roberts compromise that might have reduced the timeline rather than just saying that states, you know, you could do whatever you want, right, in terms of this.

I do wonder is there -- are there going to be court challenges in the future even to blue states or abortion rights states if it's right to call them that in the future? In other words, if a state such as New Jersey or New York maintains these rights are those guaranteed, or might they see court challenges that would -- that would fail at the Supreme Court?

BROWNE-MARSHALL: I think you're right there. Why wouldn't a challenge against a state that has abortion go forward with the sense that it would have a positive income for anti-abortion activists. Because the Supreme Court has already said there is no, if this draft opinion goes forward as they render a decision at the end of June, that there is no right under the Constitution to have an abortion. But this so disingenuous of this opinion in that there is so many rights we enjoy today that are not clearly articulated within the Constitution.

To -- for this draft opinion to have a justice legal right that there is nothing in the Constitution that says abortion. There's nothing in the Constitution that says many rights. And based on what is state in the draft that has stood history and tradition of this -- of the rights in this country, we're talking about 1787 when the Constitution was drafted.

What were the positions and rights and traditions for African Americans? For immigrants? For women during that time period? So what traditions and rights are we looking at? What rights do we have now that are not clearly articulated in the Constitution that we want to enjoy?

And how does this open us all up to having our rights butchered away? We can say butchered because this Supreme Court is deciding, cherrypicking the Constitution to decide what rights we're supposed to enjoy, what rights we're not supposed to have based on a conservative agenda.

SCIUTTO: It's a great point. Things like the same-sex marriage or even inter-racial marriage are not explicitly guaranteed in the Constitution. Gloria Browne-Marshall, thanks so much for joining us.

BROWNE-MARSHALL: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: We are following breaking developments, sad ones out of Ukraine. New fighting at that Azovstal Steel plant in Mariupol as well as refugees being blocked just trying to get out of there to save their lives. Up next we're going to hear from a Ukrainian journalist who's been reporting close to the front lines.

[10:25:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: Breaking news this morning that's sad news for the many Ukrainians trying to save their lives in Mariupol. A sources tells CNN that 50 buses that were supposed to be used evacuate civilians from Mariupol ended up leaving empty, not used, no one got out.

That sources says Russian forces let some evacuees leave the Azovstal Steel plant but not a wider group of civilians and many remain behind.

[10:30:00]