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One Dead, 4 Critically Wounded in California Church Shooting; 10 People Killed in Hate-Fueled Racist Shooting; Pennsylvania Senate Candidate John Fetterman Suffers a Stroke Ahead of Primary; President Biden Will Travel to Buffalo Tuesday; Finland Will Seek to Join NATO Despite Russia's Threats. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired May 15, 2022 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[18:00:18]

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Breaking News.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Pamela Brown in Washington. You are live in the CNN NEWSROOM on this Sunday.

And we are following breaking news right now out of Orange County, California, where a shooting at a church has left one dead and four critically wounded, according to officials there. At least one person has been detained.

CNN's Camila Bernal is in Los Angeles following the latest for us.

So I know there's not a lot of details coming in right now, Camila, but what do we know so far?

CAMILA BERNAL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Pam, as you mentioned not a lot of details but unfortunately, we do know that this is another shooting this weekend. Thankfully there is one person in custody. We know authorities have a weapon. But unfortunately, at least one person has already died.

The sheriff's department tweeting out some details. I want to read their latest tweets which says. "Dispatch received a call of a shooting inside Geneva Presbyterian Church at 1:26 p.m. Four victims have been critically wounded, one with minor injuries. All victims are adults and enroute to the hospital. One victim is deceased at the scene."

That was their latest tweet. We know there was emergency personnel at the church trying to help the people that were there. Authorities are now asking everybody to stay out of that area. But again, we know that one person is in custody and they have recovered a weapon. We're waiting to hear more on the status of the other people who have been injured. At least we know that one of them is somewhat OK with minor injuries. But other four are critically wounded and we know that one person is dead.

So, Pam, we're waiting to hear more details from the sheriff's department. But at the moment that's pretty much all they have given us. BROWN: OK, not a lot of information. Just looking here on the site of

this church saying that Geneva aspires to be an inclusive congregation, worshiping, learning, connecting, giving and serving together. Now yet another shooting this weekend. This time at this church there in Orange County.

Camila, I know that you will keep us posted on the latest details coming in. So we'll be checking back with you soon.

And now I want to bring in CNN national security analyst Juliette Kayyem and CNN law enforcement analyst Anthony Barksdale.

Juliette, what is your initial reaction to this?

JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: So right now we just can't know, I'll be honest with you. Obviously, a shooting in a church will -- should raise everyone's concern because you don't want people targeted for their religious affiliation. And also, this isn't nothing. You've got four people critically injured. So we don't know whether they will live or die.

So we'll just reserve judgment right now in terms of the location, the position, was the person known, but I think within the hour we'll know more about who the perpetrator was obviously and then why that church was chosen and then whether it has any sort of copycat or just sort of raised energy level as they say when these people get activated whether there's any connection to what happened yesterday in Buffalo.

BROWN: Yes, and that is always the question. But as you pointed out it's just too soon to know, right.

KAYYEM: Yes.

BROWN: But of course, as an investigator, former investigator that would be what would come to mind wondering about that.

KAYYEM: Right.

BROWN: Anthony, we know that a weapon has been recovered. The Orange County fire authorities on scene helping to treat the injured. Things at least seem under control from what we know. What does that tell you if anything?

ANTHONY BARKSDALE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, I mean, like Juliette said, it's still really early. But if we have a weapon and we have a suspect, then that's good, but at the same time, once again we're seeing how fast these incidents can occur with multiple victims. And is it, you know, related to what happened in Buffalo? We don't know yet. But here we are again. I mean, we're back again within 24 hours talking about another tragedy. So, you know, we've got to watch this play out. But it's a crisis in the U.S. right now. We have to do more.

BROWN: It is a crisis. It absolutely is. And I mean, just this weekend, you know, on Friday night there was the shooting in Milwaukee. 17 people wounded. And you have the Buffalo shooting yesterday. You have this shooting there in Orange County today. You know, Juliette, it's just when you look at it the cycle of gun violence, what do you think?

[18:05:08]

Are we just doomed to keep seeing this over and over and over again in America?

KAYYEM: Well, I mean, we're not doing well. Let me just be honest. I mean, the laws are not in the favor of reasonable gun control, which is supported by a majority of the Americans, or even gun safety. I mean, we've seen in so many of these cases why does a child have access to a gun. And these are things that, you know, will the system give it some stage, I used to think yes until after Newton and now I think no.

But there are new studies around whether we can determine if someone is going to be an active shooter and stop them earlier. But you have to be right a lot of times. But I do -- I don't want to differentiate between different kinds of violence and the use of guns. But I do think the violence that we see with guns, handguns, assault weapons, and the racially motivated kill, I should say, that we saw in Buffalo are substantively different.

They're both done by the same means. But I think also it's important that we do separate them. They both need to be addressed just given the nature of the kind of motivation that at least we saw in one of these cases.

BROWN: Right. And for those just tuning in, again we're waiting to find out more about the motivation with this shooting there at this church in Orange County, California. Again, we know four wounded, one dead. What are the next steps here for police, Anthony?

BARKSDALE: Well, I mean, in this incident you have a lot of work to be done. You have to interview witnesses. You have to collect evidence, ensure that the crime scene is preserved. You need forensics in there to do their job and the investigators also need to track the origin of this weapon. So most likely you're going to get the ATF involved which I always saw is a huge positive during my career.

I get the feds involved. We also need to look for likes. Is this connected? Is this another -- is this another individual that sees things differently than the rest of the rational individuals in the United States of America?

So there's a lot of work where police at this point in time. And they have to be sure that they have to get this right because the goal now is to build a prosecutable case, a constitutional prosecutable case for an attorney to try in a court of law.

BROWN: Yes. You're seeing that there and also of course in Buffalo.

Juliette Kayyem, Anthony Barksdale, thank you both. We appreciate it. We'll see you again soon in the show. And also, we want to note for you that the governor of California,

Gavin Newsom, he just tweeted this. Quote, "We are actively monitoring the shooting at a church in Laguna Woods and working closely with local law enforcement. No one should have to fear going to their place of worship. Our thoughts are with the victims, community and all of those impacted by this tragic event."

And now as we were just talking about, yesterday's mass shooting in Buffalo, New York, that is where we are shifting attention now. The disturbing portrait emerging of the teenager accused of killing 10 people in a racially motivated shooting rampage. Buffalo's mayor says an 18-year-old man scouted the community for targets the day before opening fire at the Tops Friendly Market.

New York's governor says the suspect chose the specific zip code hours from his home because it has one of the highest African American percentages in the country. And we're learning that almost a year ago he made some kind of threat at his high school and was sent for a mental health evaluation.

CNN's Victor Blackwell is outside the supermarket there in Buffalo where the shooting happened.

Victor, we're learning more about the suspect's statements after he surrendered. What more can you tell us?

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Pamela, according to officials, this suspect made it clear why he came to this community, came to this zip code, 14208, because it has a high percentage of African Americans here. According to these officials in these comments he made after he was arrested, they were disturbing, hate-filled comments about his motive, his state of mind, why he targeted the black community, why he was targeting black people specifically.

And those comments, the manifesto that's been discovered, that video, the livestream of the shooting, are all part of this investigation that is continuing here physically but expanding as well.

[18:10:06]

This 18-year-old has been charged with one count of first-degree murder. Had pleaded not guilty to that count. But I spoke with the Erie County district attorney, John Flynn, who says that as the investigation continues, certainly there will likely be more charges added to that one. Here's what else he told me.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN FLYNN, ERIE COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: All the evidence that we ascertain from that manifesto, from wherever that manifesto leads us, other pieces of evidence that we already had, we can then use that and develop more charges potentially that we can add on in a grand jury, specifically we're looking at domestic terrorism charges and hate crime charges.

(END VIDEO CLIP) BLACKWELL: And Pamela, the DA there says that he's already moving into grand jury mode. Putting together the evidence to present to a grand jury for those additional charges.

BROWN: Yes, not wasting any time there. And this afternoon, Victor, you spoke to Buffalo's mayor who has represented the area through local and state offices for more than a quarter century. What did he tell you?

BLACKWELL: Yes. Byron Brown has represented this community as a member of the city council, as a state senator, he's in his fifth term as mayor, 26 years representing this very community, and he says that, listen, a lot of the people who come here, he knows personally. We were talking a bit. He's just a generation or two from the people who are affected here. He told us about what this community needs to do to move forward.

Yes, we saw some singing, some praying, some religious services and prayer circles here. But there's more coming to this community. And he says that this shooter should not stand in the way of the growth that could happen for this part of Buffalo. Let's watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR BYRON BROWN, BUFFALO, NEW YORK: We're heartbroken. Many people with tears in their eyes. Families that have lost loved ones. I'm telling the community to grieve but let's stay strong. Let's stay together and let's get through this as a community. We're at the point where the community is about to see a renaissance where millions of dollars are slated to flow through this community and other parts of the city.

Hope and opportunity that people have been waiting for, for a long period of time is within our reach. Let's not let a racist madman take that from us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: Pamela, in addition to all of the loss we've discussed since this shooting happened, there is a practical loss for this community. This grocery store Tops supermarket is the only one that sells fresh fruit and meat and vegetables in this community. Before it came here the mayor tells me about 20 years ago now, this was a food desert. So now that it's closed as a crime scene and there will have to be cleaning of the store and restocking before it reopens, people have to now be transported to grocery stores in other parts of the city.

They are setting things up for that to happen. But without this, that access to fresh food just a short walk away, that is now on hold for some time. He expects it will reopen soon. I asked if it would be months, he said hopefully not that long -- Pamela.

BROWN: Yes. That's such an important point. It was a center piece in many ways of this community where the community went to get food. Now as you point out they're going to have to go elsewhere. Logistically figuring all that out it just shows the ripple effect from the shooting there yesterday.

Victor Blackwell, thank you so much.

And you are in the CNN NEWSROOM. We're following breaking news right now out of Orange County, California, where a shooting at a church has left one dead and four critically wounded. Also, ahead tonight, why the Buffalo shooting suspect wasn't a lone wolf even though police say he acted alone.

Plus, Pennsylvania Senate candidate John Fetterman says he's recovering from a stroke. We're going to update you on his condition coming up in the show.

And Vladimir Putin's war drives more nations to choose NATO over neutrality. I'll ask the Finnish ambassador to the U.S. if he's worried about Russian retaliation. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:18:42]

BROWN: New tonight Pennsylvania lieutenant governor and Democratic Senate candidate John Fetterman says he is recovering from a stroke. He put this video out on Twitter today two days after he went to the hospital.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GISELE FETTERMAN, WIFE OF JOHN FETTERMAN: Hey, everybody. It's John and Giselle. As you can see we hit a little bump on the campaign trail.

LT. GOV. JOHN FETTERMAN (D-PA), SENATE CANDIDATE: Yes. It was on Friday. I just wasn't feeling very well, so I decided, you know, I need to get checked out so I went to the hospital.

G. FETTERMAN: I made you get checked out.

J. FETTERMAN: Yes.

G. FETTERMAN: Because I was right as always.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: So, she followed up with this backstory. His wife that is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

G. FETTERMAN: OK, so I told John he needed to get some rest now. But there were a couple more things we wanted to let you know. John had a stroke that was caused by a clot from his heart beating in an irregular rhythm for too long. Fortunately the amazing doctors here were able to completely clear the clot and entirely reverse the stroke. They also got his heart under control. The good news is, he's feeling much better and the doctors say he's well on his way to a full recovery. I guess when your heart is that big and it carries so much love for

his state, sometimes it asks for a rest. They're keeping him here for now for observation. The doctors have assured us that he'll be able to get back on the trail. But first, under doctor orders and my orders, he needs a minute to rest, to recover.

[18:20:08]

We want to thank the amazing professionals here at Lancaster General Hospital. And all of you for your support. It means the world to us. And please get out and vote on Tuesday.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: CNN congressional correspondent Jessica Dean joins us now.

So, Jessica, what political impact could this have so close to the primary?

JESSICA DEAN, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: We're just going to have to see how this all plays out, Pamela. Setting the stage for everybody the Lieutenant Governor John Fetterman is the perceived front runner going into Tuesday's primary. He is expected to win that primary.

And of course, while everyone is very happy and relieved that he is OK and on his way to a full recovery, the timing of all of this is not what anyone would want on that campaign least of all John Fetterman himself who really likes to get out and be around voters and talking to them one on one and also in these larger crowds, which he's just not been able to do. You heard in the video there this started on Friday. The campaign then ultimately cancelled events Friday, Saturday and today, before we learned that he had a stroke.

Now the key things in this statement they also released a paper statement in addition to that video that you just saw and they talked about in the paper statement that he has no cognitive damage at all. The doctors do think he will make a full recovery.

The big question mark now, Pamela, is we're now 48 hours from primary day and he is in the hospital under observation being watched over by doctors and nurses. And it's unknown at this point exactly when he's going to be able to get out. He had originally planned of course to have an event on Tuesday night on election night in Pittsburg.

Lancaster is about a three-and-a-half-hour drive, four-hour drive from there. So it just remains to be seen right now everything is very fluid as is so often when there are medical emergencies like this. So politically the implications we just don't know. You know, how will this affect their get out the vote effort, how much effect did those last-minute rallies have on people and that visibility have on people, we're going to have to find out.

We have heard he has two opponents in this race, Malcolm Kenyatta and Conor Lamb. We have heard from both of them. They both have wished him well. Wished him a speedy recovery. But again, we have to look to Tuesday to see exactly how this all plays out and he also said he looks forward to getting back on the trail soon.

Again, we're just not sure. Does that mean the trail in the next two days or beyond that if he is actually the Democratic nominee? So we will keep an eye on this certainly and as he tries to just get some rest and take a beat. A lot of the language that they were using indicates that it may be a minute before he's able to get out and have public events again. Will he be able to do things virtually? These are all things that we're waiting to see over the next 48 hours -- Pamela.

BROWN: Yes, I mean, that's pretty serious. He seems -- it's pretty fortunate that he is doing as well as they say. As he said, he is on his way to recovery. All right, Jessica Dean, thank you so much.

And we have just learned that President Biden will travel to Buffalo in the coming days to meet with the families of victims of Saturday's mass shooting.

Arlette Saenz joins me now. So what is the president's plan, Arlette?

ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Pamela, a White House official tells me President Biden will be traveling to Buffalo, New York, on Tuesday, following that deadly shooting at a grocery store in the area just yesterday. Now the president had told reporters earlier today that he was trying to work out his schedule to see if he would be able to travel to Buffalo.

Of course, the president is slated to depart for Asia at the end of the week. But he will in fact be making that visit to Buffalo. That of course will give him an opportunity to meet with -- possibly meet with the families of victims as well as officials on the ground there as they are continuing to respond to the horrific tragedy.

Earlier today President Biden spoke with New York Governor Kathy Hochul and he has also tried to connect with the city's mayor, Byron Brown. Brown telling our colleague Victor Blackwell earlier today that he was actually in church when he received a phone call from President Biden.

And the president earlier today also spoke about this shooting, talking about those investigations into the shooting as a possible hate crime, as well as racially motivated violent extremism. And the president said that this just is just another example of needing to root out hate in the country. The president said, quote, "We must all work together to address the hate that remains a stain on the soul of America."

So the president, Pamela, on Tuesday will have that opportunity to visit Buffalo following this horrific mass shooting.

BROWN: All right, Arlette Saenz, live for us from the White House on this Sunday. Thanks, Arlette.

You are in the CNN NEWSROOM. We're following breaking news right now out of Orange County, California, where a shooting at a church has left one dead and four critically wounded, authorities say. More when we come back. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:29:25]

BROWN: Welcome back to the CNN NEWSROOM. We're following breaking news out of the Orange County, California, where a shooting at a church has left one dead and four critically wounded, authorities say. And they say one person has been detained and a weapon has been recovered.

CNN's Camila Bernal is in Los Angeles. So, what more do we know, Camila?

BERNAL: Hey, Pam. So the sheriff's department now saying that they are going to hold a press conference at 5:00 p.m. local time. That's in about an hour and a half. The latest tweet that we have from them, I want to read that to you, because it says, ""Dispatch received a call of a shooting inside Geneva Presbyterian Church at 1:26 p.m.

[18:30:05]

"Four victims have been critically wounded, one with minor injuries. But all victims are adults and enroute to the hospital. One victim is deceased at the scene."

As you mentioned we know that one person is in custody. They did recover the weapon. We know there were emergency personnel at the church after this shooting happened. Helping the victims and of course helping anyone else that was around that area. But they are asking anyone in that area in Orange County to stay away from the church as authorities continue this investigation.

We also received a statement from Governor Newsom of California. I want to read that as well where he says, "We are actively monitoring the shooting at a church in Laguna Woods and working closely with local law enforcement. No one should have to fear going to their place of worship. Our thoughts are with the victims, community and all of those impacted by this tragic event."

And look, Pam, as the governor said no one should fear going to a church. No one should fear going to a supermarket. But unfortunately that is the reality that we're seeing this weekend. As I mentioned one person is in custody. There's a weapon that has been recovered. But we do know that at least four people are injured and one is dead.

We're waiting for that update from authorities in about an hour and a half here in California -- Pam.

BROWN: All right, thanks, Camila.

And as Camila said, this is the reality that we're living in. In fact Orange County marks the fourth mass shooting in the U.S. just this weekend. On Friday, at least 21 people were shot in downtown Milwaukee. Yesterday, 10 people were killed and three injured at a grocery store in Buffalo. And earlier today, five people were shot at a flea market in Houston. At least two people died. That's not to mention the dozens of other smaller scale shootings

across the country. Chicago for example is now under a weekend curfew after police say at least 30 people were shot and five died this weekend throughout the city.

Well, you are in the CNN NEWSROOM on this Sunday. Up next why the Buffalo shooting suspect wasn't a lone wolf even though police say he acted alone. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:36:59]

BROWN: Tonight we are learning more about the teenager that allegedly carried out Saturday's mass shooting at a Buffalo, New York, grocery store. Authorities are now saying the suspect had been monitored in the past. Separately they also alleged he scoped out the supermarket before the shooting.

In a manifesto posted just before the shooting the suspect allegedly said he was radicalized online. He praised fringe message boards like 4Chan where he consumed hateful and extreme ideologies, and learned about the weapons that he allegedly used to kill 10 people including nine African-Americans. Here's New York's attorney general last hour.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LETITIA JAMES, NEW YORK ATTORNEY GENERAL: He was bent on hate, he was focused on replacement theory. This theory that white individuals will be replaced by immigrants and people of color and Jewish individuals.

We are speaking to my Republican attorney generals and others all across thus nation about what we can do to address hate. As you know the First Amendment does not protect hate speech. Particularly when hate speech follows up with acts.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: I want to bring in CNN national security analyst Juliette Kayyem.

Juliette, good to see you again. So this manifesto shows that race was his primary motivation. One line reads, "Zip code 14208 in Buffalo has the highest black percentage that is close enough to where I live." He called himself a white supremacist, fascist and an anti-Semite. He repeatedly cited the great replacement theory which claims that Americans, white Americans are being replaced by non-white people until white culture is erased. And he attributes the internet for most of his beliefs, meaning he was radicalized online.

What you make of all of this?

KAYYEM: So basically he was not acting alone. I mean, this is the -- I think the term sort of alone or a sole actor or even lone wolf which we often use are failing us now in this age of hate and hate incitement that is pushing people to totally predictable acts of violence at this stage. Like nothing should be a surprise.

This is what the replacement theory is about. And I want to make it clear this isn't about an ideology or some, you know, social phenomenon that people are saying, you know, we're becoming too diverse. The replacement theory fundamentally at its core is about violence.

There's no other way to look it because it just -- what it basically is saying or not basically, what it does say is that the white in particular male experience is being challenged by, in this case, he believed, blacks, and that this the pie is limited. So that the more blacks that there are, the fewer whites like him there can be. And therefore violence is justified as a way to protect your piece of the pie.

[18:40:02]

There is no other benign explanation for replacement theory. Replacement is actually literally means move you out and move me in. And so all this stuff you're going to hear from GOP members or members of the media who like to talk in code as if they don't know actually where replacement theory came from. It actually came -- it was an anti-Muslim and Islam sentiment out of Europe. But they know.

And so part of my argument that I wrote about in "The Atlantic" is essentially let's stop the terminology of alone or not alone, or lone wolf. It's not relevant anymore. They are being pushed in totally predictable ways to the kind of racial violence that we're seeing and we just -- you know, I don't know how to solve this but I certainly know we've got to call it out. Enough of this winking and nodding.

BROWN: Right. As you say, their language may be vague, as the time and place of the kill but it isn't misleading. It is terror executed by the herd.

KAYYEM: Yes.

BROWN: And in your piece you also wrote that you yourself were in the manifesto. And an image of CNN hosts and analysts labeled as Jews. What did that feel like to see that?

KAYYEM: Yes. I mean, you know, I'm certainly not an anchor. Just an analyst. But we definitely get our fair share of this kind of hate. I got notified actually by a viewer of ours who said you realized you're in this manifesto. I was on air when she was texting it.

Look, I -- I mean, the broad brush of hate that these people feel, right, I mean, and others were in a list of alleged CNN Jews. That is basically, I'm just quoting here, just, you know, basically it is. But the kind of incitement attacks, letters to home, all the things that people like us experience it's not new. It's definitely heightened now. But I also experience it as not relevant in a weird way. And part of that, and I think President Biden got this right in his statement.

I mean, his statement is about four words about the perpetrator. We'll learn more what's his statement. And it's a larger -- and he discusses the larger issue of hatred and racially motivated violent extremism. And in some ways just like you and I are irrelevant to -- for purposes of the manifest, in some ways the perpetrator is just one of many wolves in a pack that is being directed by the kind of hate that we're seeing by political and media leaders.

And I don't -- I just don't think it's acceptable now to simply allow them to say it's just language. This is a theory of violence. It's not a theory of racial superiority. It's replacement. And replacement means if you exist, I can't exist. And therefore you can't -- you in this case blacks cannot exist. And we just got to call it that.

BROWN: All right. Juliette Kayyem, thank you. We'll see you again later in the show.

And you're in the CNN NEWSROOM tonight. Vladimir Putin's war in Ukraine is spurring more nations to choose NATO over neutrality. Finland is now making moves to join the U.S. led military alliance and Russia is vowing retaliation. The Finnish ambassador to the U.S. joins me live, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:47:59]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAGDALENA ANDERSSON, SWEDISH MINISTER OF FINANCE: Today the Social Democratic Party has concluded that Sweden should join NATO.

JENS STOLTENBERG, NATO SECRETARY GENERAL: Finland and Sweden are NATO's closest partners. All allies agree that NATO's door is open.

ANTONY BLINKEN, SECRETARY OF STATE: And the United States would strongly support a NATO application by either Sweden or Finland.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: As Ukrainian artillery moves to reenforce the eastern front in Ukraine, Russian forces are said to be suffering significant losses as they try to advance. A CNN analysis shows Russian losses may amount to a third of its ground combat forces in Ukraine, more evidence of Ukraine's military persistence.

CNN has geolocated video posted to social media showing Ukrainian forces blowing up a bridge in the east keeping the Russians from advancing. And today, in a historic move, Finland confirms it will apply for NATO membership despite threats of retaliation from Russia. Sweden said today it will work toward an application to join.

I'm pleased to welcome Mikko Hautala, Finland's ambassador to the United States.

Ambassador, thank you for joining us.

MIKKO HAUTALA, FINNISH AMBASSADOR TO THE U.S.: Thanks for having me. BROWN: So your country shares more than 800 miles of border with

Russia. For decades there has been sort of a detente between your countries. Joining NATO will no doubt end that most likely. Tell us more about why Finland is taking this significant step.

HAUTALA: I think for us it's mainly a defensive preventive move. I think we conclude now that the situation has changed rather profoundly because of the Russian attack, and we conclude that we have to increase our deterrence. And of course, since we have already credible national defense, the next step is to join the NATO.

And we have been integrating with NATO for almost 30 years and almost for 20 years we've had a common doctrine in our foreign policy that we may join NATO one day. So it's not a surprise for the Russians which have been following the debate and the preparations for years.

[18:50:04]

So I think it's instead kind of a leap about neutral countries, it's actually a small step. It's a final step in the long path towards the membership.

BROWN: You say it's a small step but as you well know Russia is saying it doesn't see it that way. Right? I mean, Russia is already vowing retaliation. It's cut off energy in Finland. We know that Finland has about a commercial relationship with Russia over the years when it comes to energy, oil, nuclear, gas.

So what are your concerns with now Finland announcing it will apply for membership with NATO, about what other retaliation you could see from Russia?

HAUTALA: Basically Finland is -- in energy wise we are self-sufficient so we are not dependent on Russian energy. Not gas, not electricity, not oil. We have plenty of resources. So it's not an economic crisis in Finland. And basically the cutoff of electricity sales was actually caused by the sanctions so it's not related to NATO decision itself.

I think in our case the Russians will react. This is no -- there's no doubt about that. I think our assessment so far is that the reaction will be, in the beginning it will be political. I think they will most likely place a number of weapons systems close to our border but our he conclusion at this stage is that the Russian response won't be military. It's rather -- it's not really likely.

And our president just called yesterday to President Putin and that was also the outcome of the phone call that the Russians do understand that we are moving and they will respond but we also understand that there's no intention from the Russian side to increase the tension on the border. Of course, at the same time we still prepare for all different kinds of scenarios and we will of course follow the situation extremely closely.

BROWN: So Finland is expecting a response from Russia but not necessarily militarily other than maybe moving weapons and so forth closer to the border is what I hear from you. But the bottom line is it's not like you just apply to be in NATO and then you're in NATO. Right? There's a ratification period, you know, Turkey is already coming out and saying that it wants these guarantees from Finland.

The process could last up eight months to a year before Finland is officially part of NATO and could use Article 5 if it so needed to. Have you gotten any guarantees, security guarantees from the west or from the United States in this interim period?

HAUTALA: Basically it wouldn't make any sense if a country would be accepted in the integration process or access some process and then left totally out in the cold so definitely there are many countries that have said that they will support Finland if that kind of support, security support, is needed. And U.S. is one of those countries that have said so.

We have also made arrangements with the U.K. and there will be others. So we are confident that we would get support if that kind of support would be needed during the many months of ratification process.

BROWN: I'm just curious because we've seen Russia aggression before. Right? This is not the first time. This, of course, is on a larger scale than what we have seen from Russia but why -- what was it about this that pushed Finland to do this? Was there anything specific in terms of what Russia did, the actions it took in Ukraine such as, you know, in Mariupol, other places, the war crimes, just the, you know, brazenness of trying to initially take over the country as it appeared to try to do? What was it?

HAUTALA: I think we have basically two reasons. One reason was that Russia was actually in December trying to define Finland's position in a way that would exclude potential membership in NATO. That would have made us a kind of a second-class country in Europe without real sovereignty, without a real choice. That was already a really negative sign that Russia actually attempts to sort of place us in a specific category of countries. And we took it really seriously.

Secondly was, of course, the attack which was large scale and I think the real war goal was to take control of all of Ukraine so if a country like Russia conducts this kind of foreign policy with open sort of warfare then of course we have atrocities which of course affect the popular mood but basically it was the effect of these two actions. Russian attempt to define our position in a way which is not compatible with our sovereignty and secondly the beginning of war which is a major shock for all of European security system.

[18:55:03]

BROWN: Right. And especially for Finland sharing a border more than 800 miles with Russia. And there are analysts who say that in addition to wanting to take over Ukraine that Putin wanted to divide the West, wanted to weaken NATO. If that was his goal, if that is his goal do you think that it has backfired given the fact that now Finland and Sweden appear to be poised to join NATO?

HAUTALA: I think it has totally backfired. That's for sure. Still about the border, I have to say that NATO already has five countries as member states that do have a border Russia so Finland with having a border doesn't really bring any new qualitative element to the equation. So that's something that NATO already has.

BROWN: Really quick on Turkey. As we just talked about Turkey is saying that Finland needs to meet certain conditions, saying Sweden and Finland must stop supporting terrorist groups in their countries, provide clear security guarantees and lift export bans on Turkey as they seek membership in NATO. What is your response to that? Would Finland meet any of the conditions that Turkey is laying out in order to join NATO?

HAUTALA: Quite often in this ratification processes certain countries, member states they may try to negotiate or bring up some unrelated items and this has now obviously happened. We have heard rather -- sort of not so consistent messages from Turkey. They have supported the NATO application. Now we are hearing this. I think we are seeking a more firm and sort of explicit messages from them down the road. But we have good relations with Turkey and no doubt we will conduct talks with them down the road.

BROWN: OK. Thank you so much, Ambassador Mikko Hautala. Thank you for your time tonight.

HAUTALA: Thank you.

BROWN: And a reminder later tonight Fareed Zakaria looks for answers to key questions about Vladimir Putin's war on Ukraine. Why is he trying to destroy Russia's neighbor and can he be stopped? "INSIDE THE MIND OF VLADIMIR PUTIN" begins at 8:00 p.m. here on CNN.

And you are in the CNN NEWSROOM. This just in. The first images from the scene of a deadly church shooting in Orange County, California. Sadly a family scene repeating once again this weekend. We know according to the sheriff there one person is dead. Four others are critically wounded. Our breaking news coverage continues after a quick break.

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ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Breaking News.

BROWN: I'm Pamela Brown in Washington. You are live in the CNN NEWSROOM. And we are following two major stories this hour. Two deadly shootings at opposite ends of the country. First in Buffalo, New York, the White House says President Biden will go there Tuesday after 10 people were killed at a grocery store in what police call a racist shooting.

But we begin tonight in Southern California where one person was shot and killed inside a church.