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Andrew McCabe is Interviewed about the Texas Shooting; Sen. Chris Murphy (D-CT) is Interviewed about Congress Acting on Mass Shootings; Georgia Voters Reject Trump. Aired 9:30-10a

Aired May 25, 2022 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:30:00]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Texas say that the first officers on the scene could hear gunshots inside the school and that they tried to get inside to engage and stop the 18-year-old gunman. But the shooter held them off with gunfire. At least two officers were shot. Police then began trying to break windows and evacuate children and teachers.

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: At that point the gunman entered a classroom, barricaded himself inside, and we've learned it wasn't until a tactical law enforcement team arrived. And we are now learning from a local fire official that that was at least 30 minutes later.

At that point is when authorities were able to forcibly enter the classroom where they were met with gunfire before shooting and killing the gunman.

Joining us now, former deputy director of the FBI, Andrew McCabe.

I'm just -- you know, as we look at this, and understanding that we are still within this 24-hour window of this horrific massacre happening, the details that we are getting about what the response was and how that played out, when you hear those new details, Andrew, I'm wondering, what are your questions this morning based on what we do know and what we don't know?

ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Sure.

So, Erica, I think it's important to emphasize what you just said, that we really don't know with perfect clarity what happened. This investigation will ultimately include the witness -- you know, perspectives of the officers involved to understand what they saw, what they did, what they thought they could accomplish in confronting this gunman. And that's all going to be very important.

But as we learn more about the timeline, we understand that there was some sort of interaction with law enforcement, then the shooter barricades himself in a classroom in this period of time, possibly 30 minutes goes by, before they're able to enter. What stands out most to me is, it's really -- it seems, from those facts, to be somewhat inconsistent with current law enforcement protocols, which call for a very quick entry by the first responding officers. You know, this was a protocol that were developed in the wake of Columbine and the Virginia Tech shooting in 2007, to emphasize to law enforcement the importance of getting whatever weapons, biggest, most effective weapons you have in front of that shooter as quickly as possible.

Now, there's many reasons, right, that they may have thought they couldn't make such an entry and we'll have to -- we're not passing judgment on what happened here, but it is an area of inquiry that I think that folks will have to look very closely at.

SCIUTTO: The reason for that change, Andrew, right, was the idea that this is not a negotiation situation, right, given what we know about this I suppose, and what we learned post-Columbine.

How unusual is it to have a situation like this where there is an engagement prior to the shooting, right? In other words, it appears to have been a chase of some sort, an engagement prior. And if you were on the scene of a shooting like this and there had been engagement prior, how would that change, if at all, the way you would direct a response to this?

MCCABE: Well, I -- personally, Jim, I can't remember talking about another mass shooting, certainly another school shooting, in which we had an interaction with law enforcement, and then a barricaded situation where the majority of the fatalities took place. I just -- I simply don't want -- remember one. This seems unique in my experience.

You know, part of those protocols that changed after Virginia Tech and Columbine was to ensure that even patrol officers, not just tactical officers and SWAT officers, but even patrol officers had long weapons, like AR-15s, in their patrol cars for this purpose, so that if confronted with a mass -- with an active shooter or mass casualty event, they would be heavily armed enough to present a strong defense.

And the theory is, you have to -- the -- we know that in most situations that fatalities all take place very quickly. A gunman arrives on the scene, surprises everyone, and starts killing before officers are able to respond. So, once you get there, you are supposed to address that shooter with lethal force as quickly as you can to minimize the number of casualties.

This is developing into what we see is apparently a much more complicated situation. So it's going to be important to know exactly what happened.

HILL: You know, in terms of -- we talk about the training. We talk about how the training changed in the wake of Columbine, in the wake of Virginia Tech. How often is that training revisited?

[09:35:02]

MCCABE: Very often, Erica. The FBI, and together with partners at DHS and other agencies, academic agencies, put together an elaborate training effort and really got this active shooter training out in front of thousands and thousands of law enforcement officers, you know, over the last decade. It is a regular part of law enforcement training. It's not just a one-time thing. These policies and procedures, response protocols, are really baked into law enforcement policies at this point. This isn't like something brand-new, it's really standard practice across the law enforcement community.

Now that community, as we know, is 18,000 different law enforcement agencies, over 800,000 sworn officers. So, in any given department, you know, training can be very different. But active shooter response training is a -- is a core part of law enforcement training these days.

SCIUTTO: Listen, it's to early, there's a lot we don't know, but there are some legitimate hard questions at this stage.

Andrew McCabe, thanks so much.

MCCABE: That's right. Thank you.

SCIUTTO: All right, so here's the tally. There have been more mass shootings than days in the year 2022 so far. And this latest shooting in Texas has lawmakers, some of them, calling for changes in gun laws at a federal level. Of course not the first time we've heard that. Senator Chris Murphy, one of most vocal voices, joins us next after an emotional plea on the Senate floor.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CHRIS MURPHY (D-CT): Why do you spend all this time running for the United States Senate? Why did you go through all the hassle of getting this job, of putting yourself in a position of authority, if your answer is, that as this slaughter increases, as our kids run for their lives, we do nothing?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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[09:40:05]

SCIUTTO: We are 145 days into 2022. The U.S. has already seen 213 mass shootings. More shootings than days. The latest horrific attack claimed the lives of 19 children -- you've seen some of their faces already -- and two teachers at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas.

Connecticut Senator Chris Murphy, who was a congressman representing Newtown when 28 students and staff members were killed at Sandy Hook Elementary in 2012, went to the floor again to plead with his colleagues to finally do something.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CHRIS MURPHY (D-CT): What are we doing? Why are you here? If not to solve a problem as existential as this.

This isn't inevitable. These kids weren't unlucky. This only happens in this country. And nowhere else. Nowhere else do little kids go to school thinking that they might be shot that day. Nowhere else do parents have to talk to their kids, as I have had to do, about why they got locked into a bathroom and told to be quiet for five minutes just in case a bad man entered that building. Nowhere else does that happen except here in the United States of America. And it is a choice. It is our choice to let it continue.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Senator Murphy joins me now.

Those words struck me because my kids asked me the same question last night and this morning. They're scared. As I am.

You say this is not inevitable. We've been here so many times before and you've had to give speeches like that on the floor before, sadly.

Convince those listening now that Congress' response may be different this time. Can you?

SEN. CHRIS MURPHY (D-CT): Listen, I refuse to believe that this is inevitable. I refuse to believe that we don't have agency because we are the only country in the world in which this happens. There's no other high-income nation in which children are sitting in school right now, worrying for their lives. That only happens to our kids in the United States.

So, is this Congress going to pass something substantial? I can't guarantee you that. I'm going to try all day today to try to find some compromise. But this is ultimately up to voters. I mean voters get to decide this. Ask your candidates this fall, are you supportive of universal background checks? Do you think that 18-year-olds should have access to military-style assault weapons? And if they say, yes, if they -- if they support the current law, if they don't support reform, then don't send them back to Congress.

So, this is up to Congress, but this is also up to voters as well.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

Let me ask you this, though, because the Democrats, for the last two years, have controlled both the Senate and the House. And I'm well aware of filibuster rules. But also the White House. Why haven't Democrats been able to work out some compromise on an issue, for instance, such as background checks, where there is some, I know not -- perhaps not ten votes, but there's some support among Republicans. Why not?

MURPHY: Because we just don't have enough Republican partners right now. I mean, Jim, I spent all of last year bending over backwards trying to find a compromise with Republicans. I sat down with one Republican. Then I sat down with another Republican. I could not get a compromise that could get more than two or three Republicans.

Now, maybe that will change after yesterday. And I've been talking all morning, all last night to my Republican colleagues in the Senate about some ideas that maybe can get 60 votes. But this is, you know, this is a problem that has been endemic in the Senate. We just can't get enough Republicans to join with us. And, of course, on things that have 90 percent support amongst the American public. Maybe that changes this week.

SCIUTTO: Have any of your Republican colleagues called you in the last 12 hours and said, you know what, now's the time? Has anyone said that to you?

MURPHY: I mean, I've talked to several of my Republican colleagues. We're working on some ideas right now. I can't say that I've gotten a call, you know, from Republicans who historically have been against every change and told me that they've had a change of heart. But I'm not giving up hope that that could happen. Remember, we don't need 50 Republicans, we only need 10 or 12 Republicans.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

As you know, the conservative majority on this Supreme Court is very skeptical of gun regulations. Are you confident that any new potential legislation passed by Congress would survive a court challenge?

MURPHY: I am. But I don't know for how long. I mean, I certainly do worry that this Supreme Court may eventually decide that the Second Amendment, which really is originally about the regulation of militias, is absolute and that government can't pass any regulations on gun ownership.

[09:45:02]

For the time being, though, Heller is good law that allows Congress to pass restrictions on assault weapons, or universal background checks. So, right now, I think there's no question that if we pass increased background checks that that's going to pass constitutional muster.

SCIUTTO: We are already hearing the normal responses from those who support more gun freedom, not less. One is that no one gun law would prevent these shootings.

What's your response?

MURPHY: Well, just because a ban on murder in this country doesn't prevent murders from happening, that doesn't mean we legalize murder, right, because we know by making it illegal we reduce the likelihood that it happens. So, by making it illegal for people to have 30 round magazines, that doesn't mean that no one will come in possession of a 30 round magazine, but less people will and there will be less mass shootings. So, the idea that you can't prevent evil with a law doesn't mean we give up as a civilization. It means we keep on trying, knowing that we'll never be perfect, but we can still save lives.

SCIUTTO: Another response, this is a mental health issue, it's not a gun issue. Your response?

MURPHY: We don't have more mental illness than any other nation in the world. There's no evidence that there are more mentally ill people here than in Europe. The difference is, when people have homicidal thoughts in the United States of America, they can walk down the street to a Walmart and get an assault weapon easier than they can buy a cat or a dog. There's more red tape involved in pet ownership in this country than there is in assault weapons ownership.

So, the difference is not mental illness. The difference is that people who are having breaks with reality in the United States can get their hands on a weapon of mass destruction.

SCIUTTO: The final other response, and, by the way, we heard it last nigh, already on the airwaves within hours of this shooting, harden the schools, arm the teachers. Your response?

MURPHY: It doesn't feel like the problem yesterday was a lack of armed personnel at that school. In fact, there were plenty of people with guns at that school. And that shooter outgunned them. That shooter made it inside the school. And unless you are literally planning on putting an army battalion at every school in this country, it only takes a handful of minutes for an individual with an assault weapon to kill 20 or 30 people. There is no way, as we saw yesterday, that you are going to be able to prevent these murders simply by putting more weapons into schools, churches and shopping malls.

SCIUTTO: Yes, oftentimes there are more murders in minutes in these shootings. That was certainly the case in Newtown, as you know too well.

Senator Chris Murphy, thanks so much. And we appreciate you taking the time.

MURPHY: Thanks.

SCIUTTO: We will have much more on our continuing coverage just after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:51:22]

HILL: More than 20 families this morning faced with a jarring new reality. One Georgia congresswoman, Lucy McBath, knows all too well. Her son was shot and killed and has inspired much of what she wanted to do as a lawmaker.

Well, yesterday, the Democrat won her primary for Georgia's seventh congressional district and reaffirmed her commitment to gun control, tweeting, this is why, after Jordan's murder, I made a promise to my son, to my family, our entire community, that I would spend the rest of my life fighting to prevent more parents from the heartbreak of losing a loved one.

Republican voters in Georgia sending a message in Tuesday's primary. The former president's political squabbles apparently not their main concern. Voters overwhelmingly supported incumbent Governor Brian Kemp against Trump-backed former Senator David Purdue in the primary there to run for governor as a Republican. Kemp won the primary without Trump's support, is set for a rematch now with Democrat Stacey Abrams.

CNN chief national affairs correspondent Jeff Zeleny joining us live from Atlanta this morning. So, it was quite a showing in Georgia yesterday. What should we really be taking away from this moving into November?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Erica, I think, above all, it showed that there are limits to the grievance that has been expressed for more than a year by former President Donald Trump. Republican voters clearly sent a message here in Georgia yesterday up and down the ballot that they are looking forward, they are looking ahead to the next elections, both in November and perhaps beyond that. They are not looking backward at the 2020 election. You saw that in the governor's race, some 52 percent. That -- or 52 points. That is what Governor Brian Kemp defeated former Senator David Purdue by, who, of course, was drawn into this race entirely by the former president, entirely to try and avenge the big lie from 2020.

But take a listen to Governor Kemp last night. He didn't mention Trump, but he talked about the noise in the primary.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. BRIAN KEMP (R), GEORGIA: Even in the middle of a tough primary, conservatives across our state didn't listen to the noise. They didn't get distracted. They knew our record of fighting and winning for hard- working Georgians.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZELENY: So, this was the latest example of an endorsement from the former president had its limits. The third governor's race this month and a high-profile situation where the former president's candidate lost.

But, Erica, perhaps the most important result last night here in Georgia, the secretary of state's race. Brad Raffensperger, who we'll all remember certified the election returns, he turned down the Trump request to find more votes for him so he would win Georgia. He won over Congressman Jody Hice backed by the Trump movement. He beat -- winning by more than 50 percent. So he's avoiding a runoff election as well. So, going into November, the same team of Brian Kemp and Brad Raffensperger, who certified the election here for Joe Biden, will be on the Republican ticket. So, across the board, Erica, a big loss for President Trump. Republicans certainly looking forward.

Erica.

HILL: Jeff Zeleny, appreciate it this morning. Thank you.

Some positive news to report for you this morning. More baby formula on its way to the U.S. from Europe. Parents nationwide, though, still struggling to find what they need. This is the second Operation Fly Formula flight aimed at helping to ease the shortage. More than 100,000 pounds of Nestle's Gerber Goods Start formula left Ramstein Air Base in Germany this morning. Once it arrives at Dulles International Airport later today, it is set to go to Pennsylvania for distribution.

Now, the ongoing shortage certainly striking a nerve across the nation.

[09:55:01]

Golden State Warriors Guard Damion Lee had this to say about it in relation to the school shooting in Uvalde, Texas. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAMION LEE, GOLDEN STATE WARRIORS GUARD/FORWARD: It's sad, the world that we live in. We need, you know, to reform that. Guns shouldn't be as easily accessible. Like, it's easier to get a gun than baby formula right now. That's unbelievable in, you know, this country that we live in.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Easier to get a gun than baby formula.

Well, instead of planning summer vacation, 21 families are now forced to plan funerals after a gunman walked into a Texas elementary school and opened fire. We'll have the latest on the investigation in Uvalde and also on the lives lost.

Stay with us as our special coverage continues after this break.

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