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Gun Control Debate; Investigation Continues Into Texas Massacre. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired May 25, 2022 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:23]

ANA CABRERA, CNN HOST: Hello. I'm Ana Cabrera with continuing coverage of the massacre inside a Texas elementary school.

We are now learning more about the horrors and unthinkable cruelty that the teenage gunman unleashed after he burst into Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas. Police now say the shooter barricaded himself in a classroom, and all the killings took place in that one room; 19 children died Tuesday in a fourth grade class, along with their two teachers.

The killer exchanged gunfire with police, wounding two officers, before being shot and killed by law enforcement. The 18-year-old used a rifle to carry out the nation's deadliest school attack in almost a decade. These photos showing two AR-15-style weapons were posted to an Instagram account linked to him.

One of his social media posts read -- quote -- "Kids, be scared."

A firefighter on the scene says the gunman was inside that school for about 30 minutes before law enforcement ended the siege.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: It just seems that he was in there for so long in that classroom, and that the officers who were initially on scene couldn't do anything.

LT. CHRISTOPHER OLIVAREZ, TEXAS DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY: Well, you also got to take into account too, when you have someone with this intent to just kill anybody, have no regard for human life, and also with a rifle, he can kill numerous people in a matter of seconds.

So those officers were able to respond at a moment's notice, and there could have been further loss of life if those initial officers weren't on scene to break those windows and rescue any other children and teachers that were inside that classroom.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: This morning, a heartbroken father revealed that his beloved son is among the dead.

This is 10-year-old Jose Flores Jr. there on the left. His father says he loved baseball and video games. And, as you can see, he was an amazing big brother to his two siblings.

Another classmate has also been identified today, 10-year-old Uziyah Garcia. His grandfather says he was the sweetest little boy he had ever known, and that Uziyah loves video games and anything else with wheels.

We will continue to share more about the victims throughout the hour.

Right now, I want to bring in my colleague Alisyn Camerota, and she just arrived there in Uvalde a short time ago, is joining us from the school.

And, Alisyn, we're both parents, moms. I have a 10-year-old son who's in fourth grade. We all can't help but see our own children's faces as we report on this just unspeakable violence. It's so painful. And I can't even begin to imagine what it's like to be the parents whose children didn't come home from school yesterday.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: And, of course, we have all been forced to imagine it time and time again.

I covered Sandy Hook. I covered Parkland. I'm here now. And I have covered all of the school shootings in between. And one of the first things that you're struck by when you pull into this pretty little town, Ana, is the juxtaposition.

It's a beautiful blue sky day here. There's not a cloud in the sky. And it's set against this sickening scene, the backdrop of Robb Elementary right behind me, and, as you say, the faces of all of these fourth graders that we have to look at, and we know they're not going to be with their parents again.

And this is a town that's a close-knit town. You can feel the warmth, I mean, literally and figuratively, when you pull into this town. There are old churches. It's a close-knit community, we have been told. It's like Friday night lights. It's about football Friday nights, and about school, and about church.

And so, obviously, no community is immune from this scourge of school violence.

I want to bring in Rosa Flores, who has been covering this. She is here with me at the school.

So, Rosa, again, I'm struck by the scale of Robb Elementary. It's small because it's an elementary school. And this is where this has happened in a classroom of 10-year-olds.

ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And it's very complicated too, because this is a crime scene, and it's also now a memorial for these parents.

We have seen parents stop by, people from this community stop by with flowers. There's a growing memorial behind us that you really can't see at the moment. But there's this dichotomy at the same time, because we have seen investigators collecting evidence on the lawn of this elementary school, where children used to play.

And now they're trying to piece this puzzle together about what happened, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: I try not to think about the carnage in that classroom, but I have had to think about the carnage as we get more description.

So the gunman barricaded himself in a fourth grade classroom. And he was in there for something like half-an-hour, because although there's a lot of -- there was a huge police response, they were trying to save other kids and get them out first.

[13:05:13]

FLORES: It's very disturbing when you hear some of these officials, police officers describe the scene, because you can only imagine those intense moments when these police officers say that they were trying to break windows to go into this school to save children.

But I think the timeline is important here, Alisyn, so we should probably go over that. There's actually two crime scenes that police say is involved here. And, first of all, all of this started yesterday at about noonish, when the shooter shot his grandmother.

So that's a separate scene.

CAMEROTA: How close are we to that scene? Do we know?

FLORES: I don't know exactly how close that scene is. But we know that that unfolded. His grandmother was airlifted. She is still alive. So you can imagine she's a key witness at this point.

But she's fighting for her life. We understand she's alive. Shortly thereafter, this shooter traveled here near this school, crashed into a ditch. Now, what -- from what we know from authorities, he had purchased two rifles on May 17 and on May 20, and he purchased them legally once he turned 18 years of age.

According to police, he got out of the vehicle with one rifle and some sort of tactical vest. That's when he approached the school that you see behind us. And that's when police begin to engage with him. And it's exactly what you said.

According to a local firefighter, that engagement lasted for about 30 minutes. So, you can only imagine the intense moments when the children can hear the gunshots, when that teacher -- we know that two adults have died, the moments when these individuals, these children were probably trying to run for their lives.

We don't know a lot of those stories at the moment, but I'm sure that we will learn about them soon.

CAMEROTA: Yes, it's hard to even think about them.

And we're waiting for a press conference here, where there will be more questions answered. But when he drove his car into a ditch before this happened, was there any police engagement? Do we know the answer to that, if they were aware of that accident or that he was around, or not until he barricaded himself in the classroom?

FLORES: According to Texas DPS, there were 911 calls that came in. There was a response. There were officers on scene. There was immediate engagement.

From what we understand, where he crashed the vehicle, Alisyn, is just in a ditch beyond this road. We can't get there because there's a barricade, but that's where that truck is. So, he went from that truck into the school and began to engage with police officers.

Now, it's important to note this town is very close to the border. I actually drive through this town every single time that I go cover a story in Del Rio, Texas. So I have driven by this town many, many times. You stop for a little coffee. Everybody is nice. As we were driving in, and even in the small towns, you can see that, because it's May, it's the end of the school year, there's the photographs of all of the individuals who are graduating from the school.

CAMEROTA: I saw that.

FLORES: You can see just how tight-knit this community is.

And so the other law enforcement agency that was here is Customs and Border Protection, Border Patrol, because these officers -- and I have interviewed so many of them, and including Texas DPS in this area, but in reference to the border, never for a school shooting.

CAMEROTA: And, of course, they risked their lives and rushed here as well. And many engaged, and some were hurt.

But I think that one of the things that you're saying I just wanted to touch on, school was supposed to be ending tomorrow. Tomorrow was supposed to be the last day of school at Robb Elementary. They were getting ready for summer. There's a feeling of summer starting here.

And these 19 kids and their families will not have that summer or any summer.

FLORES: I talked to a mom just about an hour ago who said that there's so much anger and also so much pain right now in this community, because exactly that. They were so close to the end of the school year.

And, also, this woman was describing the agonizing wait, Alisyn, that these families had to endure yesterday. And we have covered these stories enough to know that there's the -- this agonizing wait where family members don't know if their loved ones are alive or dead.

And that's what she was describing. This woman says -- she says she knows four of the individuals who died, four children. Two of them are family members. Two are acquaintances. And she says that the family, they haven't slept. They have been weeping. They have been crying. They just can't imagine life without their children.

CAMEROTA: And coming up, we're going to talk to a pastor who was there with the families trying to give them comfort.

Rosa, stand by. I know we're waiting for that press conference. And you will be giving us more information.

But we want to go about 90 miles east of here to the University Hospital in San Antonio.

That's where we find CNN's Lucy Kafanov. She's there.

Lucy, what's the latest on the patients who were transferred there from here, this scene?

[13:10:03]

LUCY KAFANOV, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Alisyn, as Uvalde drowns in sorrow, here at the University Hospital in San Antonio, loved ones, relatives of some of the patients are anxiously awaiting word about their status.

We know that four patients are being treated here as we speak, three young children, one adult. We know the conditions. A 9-year-old girl and a 10-year-old girl are both listed in good condition. However, a 66-year-old woman and another 10-year-old girl are fighting for their lives.

They were admitted in critical condition yesterday. That has been upgraded to serious condition as of a few hours ago. We know that all of the little ones, the pediatric patients, have families with them, family members accompanying them.

The flags here at the facility flying in half-staff in honor of the victims. The hospital releasing a statement, and I want to read you a part of that. They write: "We should also keep in our thoughts law enforcement, first responders, medical teams who responded with bravery, professionalism, compassion and great skill to save lives. This includes many people at University Hospital, in addition to the teams in the trauma resuscitation unit, the operating room, and in the pediatric and adult trauma inpatient units. So many of our team members have been working tirelessly to support these patients and their families."

They go on to write, Alisyn, that their hearts are breaking, as are all of our hearts for the patients, the teachers, the students, who were so tragically shot and killed yesterday -- Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: Lucy, we know that there was an urgent blood drive last night. Do they still have that need? What's the status?

KAFANOV: The hospital says that they have been flooded with phone calls, online appointments, folks from all over, trying to help in any way they can.

They are encouraging people to go on their social media Web site to donate for a special relief fund for the Uvalde victims, which will help cover some of the medical expenses for the patients being treated here. So, anyone who wants to help is being encouraged by the facility to go donate there, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: OK, thank you for all that information, Lucy.

So, as we have been discussing, some families waited all night at the hospital for some word on their children.

Pastor Doug Swimmer from the nondenominational Potter's House Church, spent hours there comforting parents and offering his support. And he joins us now.

Pastor, thanks so much for being here.

Well, I can't imagine what that job was like yesterday. Tell us about the hours you spent with the parents.

PASTOR DOUG SWIMMER, POTTER'S HOUSE CHURCH OF UVALDE: Well, it's my life. And so I don't consider it a job.

And so, but, to me, with the families at the hospital -- and it was yesterday afternoon. My -- I came home. My wife says, "You need to go to the hospital," and went to the hospital. They directed me upstairs.

I presented myself as a pastor there from the community. I asked who needed prayer, and we had numbers of people just come rushing towards me: "We need prayer."

And we prayed with a number of the families there. I worked with these families, number of the families that were there. I worked with them at a local nursing home here for about 10 years. And to see them in distraught and with no answers is heartbreaking for our community.

And, as a pastor, sometimes, all you can do is pray and just ask God for his grace and his mercy. And it was devastating yesterday. It was -- it was the worst day of my life.

CAMEROTA: Were you there when some of the parents got word about their children?

SWIMMER: I was there as information was coming in. They would call out the names. And the families would meet the liaison there at the hospital. And they would usher them out.

And so I have never really got accurate information about the condition of their child. And so...

CAMEROTA: Do you know if any parents got good news that -- during that time?

SWIMMER: I believe they have, because I saw one young man come out, and his family corralled him and hugged him, and grandmother was holding onto him.

And it was -- it was a beautiful thing to see. And then to look up and see everybody else heartbroken, still waiting, as a pastor, that's one of the most devastating things, is not having an answer. CAMEROTA: Oh, I have heard that so many times from families who are

grieving, the not knowing. The not knowing is even worse than knowing the horrible truth.

And were you there when some parents got the truth that their kids had been killed?

SWIMMER: Not at that time.

But I was there at the community center when information was coming in, and to see the devastation and heartbreak in our community. I know these families. I have seen them at their local stores, football games.

[13:15:10]

And now, for them to wake up today not being able to hug their loved ones, and this community needs an answer. And the answer is Jesus Christ.

CAMEROTA: And love.

SWIMMER: Yes.

CAMEROTA: Pastor, we're praying along with you. And thank you for sharing that and for being there for the families.

SWIMMER: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: I really appreciate talking to you.

Ana, there's a lot of these stories, obviously, that we will be bringing you from here, because the family is still just trying to get their arms around what happened here yesterday.

CABRERA: We want to wrap our arms around all of them. I can't even imagine.

Thank you, Alisyn. We will check back.

One gunman took the lives of 21 people. They were sons, daughters, students and teachers and so much more, and they were loved.

Here are some of their stories.

This was 10-year-old Xavier Lopez yesterday morning. His mother told "The Washington Post" she took that picture at the school's honor roll ceremony. She says her son couldn't wait to go to middle school. She describes him as funny, never serious, and with a smile that would cheer anyone up.

This is 10-year-old Amerie Jo Garza. Her father told "The New York Times" she was full of life, a jokester, always smiling. Look at that smile. He added that his little girl who loved to play with Play-Doh was very social and talked to everyone. And he posted on Facebook: "My little love is now flying high with the angels above. I love you, Amerie Jo. Watch over your baby brother for me."

And this is Eva Mireles, a fourth grade teacher. Her aunt says Eva died trying to protect the children in her classroom. A cousin told NBC, Eva was an amazing cook, that her laughter was contagious, and that she put her heart into everything she did. The family also says she was an avid hiker who took pride in teaching mostly students of Latino heritage.

All those families mourning the loss of those precious souls are asking, why, why, and how, how could this happen?

Let's delve deeper into what we know in the investigation. Here's what law enforcement officials say they encountered when they got to the school.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OLIVAREZ: The initial group of officers that were on scene, at that point, they were at a point of disadvantage, because the shooter was able to barricade himself inside that classroom.

There wasn't enough -- there was not sufficient manpower at that time. And their main -- their primary focus was to preserve any further loss of life. So they started breaking windows around the school and trying to rescue, evacuate children and teachers while that was going on.

At that point, we had a specialized tactical team arrive comprised of federal officers, local police officers as well. They made forcible entry into that classroom.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: With us now, CNN senior law enforcement analyst Charles Ramsey. He is the former Philadelphia police commissioner and former D.C. police chief.

Thanks, Commissioner, for being here.

What are your thoughts on law enforcement saying that they felt outpowered during this shooting and how they responded?

CHARLES RAMSEY, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, I mean, there are a lot of gaps that have to be filled in.

Thirty minutes is a long time before entry could be made. And so they're going to have to examine minute by minute as to what was taking place to find out why it did take so long.

Having said that, they were able to get other children out of the building, apparently, after this person barricaded himself inside the one classroom. But they're still going to have to explain the 30 minutes, because you have to be able to explain why you weren't able to take out the gunman. I mean, 30 minutes is a very, very long period of time. So I

understand that everyone is doing the best they can. But that has to be explained.

The active shooter training that officers receive now, assuming that they received that training, and I believe they did, no matter what, you have to get in there and do everything you can to try to take out the threat.

I'm not saying they didn't do that. I'm just saying that's going to have to be explained. So I don't know if they have got body-worn camera footage. I don't know -- listening to radio transmissions or what have you, did someone tell them to stand down until SWAT arrived?

All those things need to be answered before we really know what took place.

CABRERA: And I think it's still unclear exactly at what point law enforcement made initial contact with the shooter.

We do know that this shooter had at least one assault-style weapon on him at the time and inside the school. Authorities found what appears to be seven 30-round magazines in that school. There was additional ammunition and more magazines that were full of ammo outside the school.

[13:20:03]

Again, the 30 minutes then that we have learned that it took to eventually neutralize this person, I still wonder, though, how challenging is it to take out, to neutralize a person with that kind of weaponry and ammunition?

RAMSEY: Well, I mean, it's very difficult. And I'm not criticizing them.

I'm just saying that you have to actually take a real serious look at that and debrief around it, because this may not be the last time police officers somewhere will be faced with a similar situation. I mean, this isn't going to stop. It's just a question of when and where we have the next incident.

So you learn from each incident. He had an assault weapon. He had a lot of firepower. I don't know if he's firing through the doors or what he was doing that would have prevented officers from making entry.

All those things are probably what took place. But that's why you have to debrief around these things, so that you learn, so that, if it ever happens again, you have a better opportunity to get in quicker and save more lives, if that's at all possible.

I don't know how they were armed. Many departments now carry heavy weapons in the trucks of their vehicles, for an example, so, if something like this happens with an active shooter, they have adequate firepower. They may not have had that available to them right away. But, again, those are serious questions.

CABRERA: Yes.

RAMSEY: And they do need to be answered.

CABRERA: There are major gaps, as you point out.

And there is a news conference we're expecting later this hour, where we hope to get more answers. If you could ask a few questions yourself, what would you ask?

RAMSEY: Well, again, you're looking for motive.

I don't know what they have been able to uncover so far. I'm sure they have executed search warrants. I'm sure they have taken a real hard look at his social media footprint to find out, were there things that could have been red flags? Were there other people who knew what his intention was?

Was the grandmother, who apparently is critical, but has she been able to talk at all to explain what might have been going on? I mean, I hope we get some information around why. We still don't even know if this school was actually the target.

CABRERA: Right.

RAMSEY: He crashed his car. Could it have been just he was there, and that's where he chose to go? Was he going to his high school? Where was he going?

And so there are a lot of unanswered questions that, hopefully, we get some clarity at this -- during this press conference.

CABRERA: We have learned that there are employment records as recent as 2020 that shows the grandmother actually worked at that school at one point.

Unclear if she's still an employee at that school, but there is a connection to this family specifically.

Charles Ramsey, so much more to learn. Thank you for being there as a resource for us.

The Uvalde massacre is among at least 213 mass shootings this year alone in the U.S., according to the Gun Violence Archive. As Democrats move to hold a vote on background checks, how are Republicans responding?

We will be right back with that.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:27:28]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SEN. CHRIS MURPHY (D-CT): I want people to understand how grisly that scene was last night at that school.

I want people to really understand what a little kid's body looks like when it is riddled with holes from an AR-15, when the face is so unrecognizable to the parents that you have to do DNA swabs in order to do a body identification.

No one should wish that on a parent in this country. No one should wish that on a child in this country. And I just don't accept that Congress is going to do nothing about it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: That is Democratic Senator Chris Murphy reacting to the school shooting in Uvalde, Texas.

It is the deadliest school shooting since the Sandy Hook killings 10 years ago in Murphy's home state of Connecticut. And Murphy says he has been on the phone with his Republican colleagues all morning trying to find 60 votes on something, any gun reform legislation.

CNN's Manu Raju joins us now on Capitol Hill. Kaitlan Collins is at the White House for us.

Manu, we have been here far too many times. What are the chances lawmakers can pass some kind of gun law reform this time?

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Very slim, because there's simply a disagreement on the policy and on the process.

On the policy, there are bills that have passed the House that would expand background checks, one of which would impose so-called universal background checks both on commercial sales and on private transfers. That does not even have the simple majority of Democratic senators on board; 50 senators aren't -- Democrats senators aren't on board, much less the 60 to overcome a filibuster.

There's also a narrower bill dealing with commercial gun sales that is supported by a bipartisan duo, Pat Toomey, Joe Manchin, but that's also does not have 60 votes. And then there's the assault weapons ban, banning semiautomatic rifles, something that a lot of Democrats support.

But in talking to Republicans today, they made clear that they have a different approach and would not back these -- these proposals.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R-FL): Listen, at the end of day, you're arguing about what they're using to commit this. And the truth of the matter is, these people are going to commit these horrifying crimes whether they have to use another weapon to do it with.

They're going to figure out a way to do it. SEN. RICK SCOTT (R-FL): Have it in our Constitution the -- our Second Amendment rights. And I'm not interested in taking away rights from law-abiding citizens.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: And that last response was about whether or not they should ban AR-15s, which would be part of a so-called assault weapons ban, which has no traction in the Senate.

They're pushing a separate measure to harden school safety, the Republicans are. But on the process, there's a dispute among Democrats about whether to gut the Senate's filibuster rules to allow legislation to pass by a simple majority, rather than 60 votes. But at least two Democratic senators are opposed

[13:30:00]