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Gunman Inside Uvalde School Up to An Hour Before Being Killed; Grieving Families Remember 19 Children, 2 Teachers Killed at Texas School; Lawmakers Renew Efforts to Pass Stalled Gun Control Legislation. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired May 26, 2022 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[10:00:00]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: A good Thursday morning to you. I am Jim Sciutto.

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Erica Hill.

As the nation mourns the senseless loss of 19 children and 2 teachers, new questions are emerging about the timeline of events and how police response in the wake of that shooting. CNN has learned the killer was on school grounds for up to an hour before officers breached the classroom and killed him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Why did it take as long as it did for the tactical team to go in?

LT. CHRIS OLIVAREZ, SPOKESMAN, TEXAS DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY: Well, what you need to understand too that we know that several officers were off duty and they still responded to the scene. Again, trying to establish exactly the timeline, as far as the response time, we know that officers were on scene. As I mentioned earlier, we had the school resource officer that was on scene, still, again, trying to establish his role. We had secondary officers that arrived on scene that were actually met with gunfire upon entering the school.

So, we know law enforcement was there. There was immediate presence from law enforcement. But, again, trying to establish a timeline, we need to gather all those facts, working with FBI, trying to gather surveillance video, talking to witnesses. So, again, right now, we have an accurate or concrete timeline.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: What he did not answer there is what happened after that initial encounter, after the gunman was barricaded in the classroom with so many children and those teachers.

This morning, according to The Washington Post, parents who rushed to the scene, they heard gunfire inside the school, begged officers, armed officers, to charge into the building.

CNN now has new video that shows the gunman entering the school, circled there. Authorities say the suspect was confronted by an officer as he made his way into the building. They say he dropped a bag full of ammunition before he went inside. What they have not answered is whether the officer, or any officer, exchanged gunfire with that shooter.

Let's begin this morning with CNN Crime and Justice Correspondent Shimon Prokupecz in Uvalde, Texas. Shimon, listening to, well, the answers and the non-answers, from the police so far, the principal question really is the wait. Yes, there was an initial encounter as the gunman went into the school. When that gunman was fired at those officers, it injured them, but then there was a long wait before anyone breached that classroom. What do we know at this point? What have they answered and what have they not answered?

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, it seems like it is more they are not answering. And they are saying they just do not have enough information, right, and they are still waiting to interview more officers. They did not interview the resource officer until last night. And, in some ways, that is understandable perhaps some of the trauma, but this resource officer can provide some crucial details.

And we still do not have a full account from that resource officer of exactly what transpired, and, really, these critical moments. The beginning of this, Jim, is probably the most critical stage of this. What happened in those beginning moments? Because what we have learned this morning, also, was that the gunman was able to easily enter the school through an unlocked backdoor. No one stopped him. Why is that? Why was it so easy for this gunman to enter the school? So, that is something that investigators need to figure out.

And, of course, what happens in those moments inside the school, in that hallway? There is a long hallway where police say there was gunfire, that the suspect fired at them, there was an exchange of gunfire, and then he goes into this classroom where he barricades himself inside the classroom, and then we know that it takes quite a significant amount of time for the tactical officers to respond to and neutralize, as we say, the threat.

[10:05:00]

And those are the key moments here, why did it take so long to get those tactical officers here? What were they doing in that time? We know 80 Border Patrol officers responded here. And what happens then? Who was in charge here and who was making the decisions? Jim?

HILL: Yes. We are still trying to get so many of those answers.

There are also questions about what was happening with the parents, right, that there were a group of parents who reportedly who wanted to rush into the school because they felt not enough was being done. What more do we know about that? PROKUPECZ: Yes. It is just horrifying. Parents getting word of shots being fired of a potential active shooter at the school, and they came here because they wanted answers. They wanted to know what was going on. And parents are now speaking out, saying they were here, and they saw police officers standing around, several police officers standing around. They want it themselves, they say, to go inside. They wanted to go and rescue their kids.

And just think about this, they are standing outside this building and they are hearing those gunshots being fired. And, understandably, police did not want them to go inside. It was just too dangerous. But they have questions about why these officers were standing outside and were not going to try and save the children.

SCIUTTO: Yes, a lot of highly armed officers that you saw outside that school for some time. Shimon Prokupecz, thank you so much.

HILL: Well, Shimon mentioned, we are hearing from parents, we are also hearing more about the victims and the stories are heartbreaking.

Tuesday morning, ten-year-old Jose Flores Jr. received this honor roll certificate. You see how proud he is there in that picture. That ceremony was just hours before Jose was gunned down in his class through. His family says he was a loving son and a big brother. He dreamed of becoming a police officer because he wanted to protect others when he grew up.

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CYNTHIA FLROES, MOTHER OF SHOOTING VICTIM JOSE FLORES JR.: When it was just me and him, I was telling him he is so good and he's helpful, helped me around the house. He would just be like my little shadow, like he would just be helping me in stuff like with the baby. He had a thing or babies, like my friend's babies then. Like he's just very good with babies, he was always nice.

JOSE FLROES SR., FATHER OF SHOOTING VICTIM JOSE FLORES JR.: One of the rangers told me, came to me, he was like, as a father, I would not let you go back there to see him because he was not recognizable.

So, I didn't get to hold him no more. I didn't get to see him. They said that at the funeral they will not have an open casket for the same reason.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: A parent told they cannot see their dead child, unrecognizable. I cannot imagine the pain.

Well, President Biden is expected to visit Uvalde in the following days to meet with victim's families. It's familiar scene we've seen. The president is visiting the scenes of the school shootings. This as parents and families are now planning funerals with little caskets.

HILL: CNN Correspondent Adrienne Broaddus is outside the school for us this morning. Adrienne, I know you have been learning more about the victims. What more can you tell us?

ADRIENNE BROADDUS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Erica, three children are still in the hospital, according to a hospital spokesperson. Those three children are in critical but stable condition. Also, in critical condition, the 66-year-old grandmother of the shooting victim, she is stable but still critically ill and fighting for her life.

On New Day, we spoke with the pediatric trauma medical director. She told us her team was treating destructive wounds. So, what does that mean, many of you might be asking. That means the children and the other patients had large areas of tissue missing from their body. They also require emergency surgery because of the significant blood loss.

But also weighing heavy on the medical staff, the patients who perished at the school, the patients who never made it to the hospital. Listen in.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. LILLIAN LIAO, PEDIATRIC TRAUMA MEDICAL DIRECTOR, UNIVERSITY HEALTH: In the last experience, we realized that when we are dealing with high-velocity firearm injuries, we may not get a whole lot of patients. And I think that is what hit us the most, not of the patients that we did receive, but we are honored to treat them, but the patients that we did not receive. I think that is the most challenging aspect of our job right now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROADDUS: And these doctors and nurses meet people on the worst day of their lives. They are trained. They know how to care for and treat these patients but it is still tough. It is still painful. Jim and Erica?

[10:10:00]

HILL: Adrienne Broaddus, I appreciate it, thank you.

As the initial shock of this tragedy sets in, so does the trauma.

SCIUTTO: Yes. And the trauma lasts. We know that from shootings like this. They often last for many years for all involved.

Mary Beth Fisk is CEO of The Ecumenical Center. That's an organization helping with trauma, counseling, right now in Uvalde.

Mary Beth, there are so many victims of this. Of course, they are children who lost their lives. Those are the principal victims. But there are other children who witnessed that. They may have survived and they lost children, friends, parents, goodness, first responders as well. But let's begin with the children.

For child survivors of trauma like this, particularly if they have witnessed it firsthand, what do you say to them? How deep are those wounds? MARY BETH FISK, CEO/EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, THE ECUMENICAL CENTER: Certainly, it is a most horrific tragedy. We have trauma specialists who are on the scene, will continue to be on the scene as long as there is a need in Uvalde, Texas. With our children, it is important for them to find a voice. Some of them can articulate and others cannot.

So, having played therapy is an option, music therapy and art therapy for them, so they can draw a picture or they can illustrate what is on their heart, they would like to communicate.

HILL: You have a lot of experience, unfortunately, with this. I know the center responded in the wake of the shootings in El Paso, in Sutherland Springs, and, frankly, gun violence across this country is an issue every single day, not just in these mass shootings. How much do you and other organizations rely on each other to share what you have learned so that you can help address this long-term trauma?

FISK: Absolutely. After Sutherland Springs, which was a major mass violence setting, we were called on by the FBI and others within our nation to come together and share experiences and share best practices. It is very hard to say that when we, obviously, first and foremost, these families have lost a loved one. Those teachers, the folks who are in this community that are also connected, it is a very tight-knit community in Uvalde.

SCIUTTO: Mary Beth, the wounds are deep. You do great work trying to get to these children, in particular, early. In your experience -- and children are resilient. We know that. In your experience, do they recover from something like this?

FISK: There is a long journey ahead for the children and the adults. What is really very important is to have the licensed professionals who are trained in this area to work with them and making sure those resources are available to them as they so deserve that level of care, not only this week, or next week, but in the weeks and months to come. It is important to provide them with that level of care.

In Sutherland Springs, as we responded, we still have offices. We have three offices in that community, around that community, for individuals to receive counseling. That was in certainly 2017. So, it is a long journey.

HILL: Today would have been the last to school, as we know. Summer vacation was set to start. In some ways, that is likely helpful to have a couple of months, right, where school is not top of mind, but it will be come the fall.

How difficult is it, right, for the staff, the teachers, the staff of the school, and the kids, as that date approaches? And they have to think about what does school look like this year.

FISK: Yes. There will be many conversations with the school officials and the support that they have, not only through our state but nationally as to what that will actually look like. There are going to be some difficult decisions coming up. But, certainly, people feel overwhelmed. Many times, we remind people who have been victims or folks who are listening today who may have had a trauma in their past that may be triggered by this information about this tragedy in Uvalde, is to make sure they are taking care of themselves, making sure that they drink lots of water, that they find an outlet, that they limit the information intake to be able to maintain their own health.

HILL: That is so important.

SCIUTTO: As you have been talking, Mary Beth, we have been showing live pictures of those 21 crosses outside the school to mark all the lives lost. I cannot tell you how many times I have seen crosses like that outside of schools in American portrait.

We do appreciate the work you're doing, Mary Beth Fisk, and we wish you the best of luck, because I know you are going to have some tough days and weeks and encounters ahead. Thanks for joining us.

FISK: Thank you. Thank you, Jim and Erica.

SCIUTTO: Still to come this hour, there is actually, wait for it, some optimism on Capitol Hill about the possibility of agreement on gun reform.

[10:15:02]

Democratic Senator Richard Blumenthal says, quote, for the first time, we are talking seriously. So, who is he talking with? What might move forward? We will have an update coming up.

HILL: Plus, we will speak with Texas Congresswoman Veronica Escobar, who is all too familiar with navigating the days after a mass shooting and is also working to find an answer to the gun violence in her state.

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HILL: Right now, lawmakers are pushing to get a stalled gun control legislation pass the finish line. Republican Senator John Cornyn is planning to meet with Democratic Senator Chris Murphy in Washington Today. Senator Richard Blumenthal says he and Cornyn are talking seriously about red flag laws for the first time.

SCIUTTO: The trouble is, of course, we have been here before, we have seen these moments. We saw that after Sandy Hook. We saw that after Parkland. Will this be different? It is an open question.

CNN's Brian Todd explains how previous efforts have failed.

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Erica and Jim, it is a pattern that goes back at least -- horrific school shootings occurrs, action was demanded, and promised in Washington, then it fizzles under the weight of partisanship and special interests. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TODD (voice over): Another slaughter of children inside a school, another instance where a shaken president pleads for an end to inaction.

JOE BIDEN, U.S. PRESIDENT: When in God's name we do what we all know in our gut needs to be done?

TODD: But if there's any new movement in Washington after the Uvalde, Texas, mass shooting, any movement to ban or cut back the sales of assault weapons, any movement to strengthen background checks, it could join a heartbreaking list of past attempts following horrific school shootings that failed.

BILL CLINTON, FMR. U.S. PRESIDENT: We must do more to keep guns out of the hands of children.

TODD: That was President Bill Clinton three days after the massacre at Columbine high school in Colorado in April, 1999, when two students killed 12 fellow students and a teacher. Federal legislation was proposed to close loopholes for background checks at gun shows. It failed in Congress.

MARGARET TALEV, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: For president after president since Bill Clinton, there are tragedies, there is a call to action, there are efforts at legislation, and that legislation falls short.

TODD: The Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting in Newtown, Connecticut, in December 2012, when 20 children were gunned down along with six adults, was a moment so horrifying that Democrats and Republicans said something had to be done.

BARACK OBAMA, FMR. U.S. PRESIDENT: This time, the words need to lead to action.

TODD: Many believed tighter gun laws had a real chance of passing. They didn't pass. Not a proposed assault weapons ban, not a bipartisan measure for expanded background checks. President Barack Obama was still upset years later.

BARACK: Every time I think about those kids, it gets me mad.

TODD: Four years ago, after a gunman killed 17 people at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida, then-President Donald Trump went against the NRA and called for sweeping gun legislation.

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: We want to be very powerful, very strong on background checks and especially as it pertains to the mentally ill.

TODD: That movement lasted about a day at the federal level. The father of a Parkland victim following the Texas shooting yesterday remained pessimistic and angry. FRED GUTTENBERG, DAUGHTER JAIME KILLED IN PARKLAND, FLORIDA HIGH SCHOOL SHOOTING: It is so infuriating because all of these instances, we know the next one is going to happen because we have not done anything to fix it.

TODD: One analyst says, there is plenty of blame to go around, and not just among politicians who point fingers at the other side of the aisle.

TALEV: The public has not demonstrated a will to put this issue above everything else at the ballot box. Are they willing to prioritize that above voting on inflation or their pocketbook?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TODD (on camera): And now after this school shooting, a familiar conundrum in Congress, House Democrats pass legislation strengthening background checks. Now, Democrats in the Senate can either try to ramrod that through quickly with the likelihood that it will fail or they can take more time to try to negotiate something more bipartisan with Republicans, with the outcome of that, far from certain. Erica, Jim?

SCIUTTO: Brian Todd, thanks so much.

Now joining me now to discuss, Congresswoman Veronica Escobar, she is a Democrat who represents El Paso, Texas. She also sits on the House Judiciary Committee. Congresswoman, thank you for taking the time this morning.

REP. VERONICA ESCOBAR (D-TX): Good morning, Jim, thanks for having me on.

SCIUTTO: So, you heard Senator Blumenthal say, for the first time, we are talking seriously, his words, Democrats and Republicans. We know that John Cornyn, a Texas senator, is meeting with Chris Murphy, who has been a long proponent of gun legislation. Do you believe that there is potentially a moment here?

ESCOBAR: I will believe it when I see it, Jim. I will tell you, it is our job to do everything possible to find a path forward on solutions. But the Republican playbook is something that I think we are all too familiar with. And in that story, there was a comment about the parties pointing figures at one another. The fact of the matter is, and this is not a partisan statement, this is a factual statement, there is only one party in America right now that actually has led and acted on gun violence prevention legislation, and that is the Democratic Party. And there is one party in America that has consistently stood in the way of reforming laws that make us less safe when it comes to gun, and that is the Republican Party.

[10:25:03]

Ultimately, what Republicans do, and their playbook is, number one, do not talk about it right now. You are politicizing the issue by talking about it so soon after the carnage. And, number two, then the delay, basically, on any conversation, the delay works in their favor, because then the country's attention turns to something else. We will face other challenges as a country and they buy time. And with that time then comes -- the energy that dissipates and Democrats, again, are left being the only party working toward these solutions. So, there needs to be this bipartisan path, but there ultimately needs to be accountability.

SCIUTTO: The trouble is Democrats don't have the votes though, right? They just do not have the votes in the Senate to do this. So, clearly, they are not getting folks to vote for them on that issue. So, short of having the votes, don't happen in Senate, may very well use that -- lose the House majority in November. Where, if anywhere, is there middle ground? There are discussions of red flag laws. There are discussions of expanding background checks. In your conversations, where is a potential agreement?

ESCOBAR: Well, I think that there could be agreement on background checks and the red flag laws, which would be a very positive step forward. There is a lot we have to do, in my view, beyond that, which includes increasing the age for getting access to guns. An 18 year old should not have access to guns. That 18 year old cannot go into a bar but why can they go purchase a weapon of war? And, you know, there are other really good commonsense pieces of legislation, but I think any movement in the right direction would be positive.

But, Jim, I think it is also really important that we put some of this responsibility on voters. We have an election in November. At what point will voters finally say, I have had enough, I have had enough, and I will hold accountable those individuals who refuse to act, or who try to divert attention away from the real issue? So, there are a lot of people in America right now that need to engage in some introspection in about how they are going to use the power of their voice through the power of their vote in November. And it is my hope that that when they cast their vote, Jim, that they think of those little babies who never came home.

SCIUTTO: Yes. I cannot help but picture their faces. I can still remember faces from shootings I covered two decades ago.

You represent El Paso. El Paso had its own horrible mass shooting. I was there to cover it in 2019. When you look at the various options, there is no one gun law that would stop all shootings. Which one, do you think, would make the most sense as a difference as a first step? Is it about background checks? Is it about red flag laws? Is it about particular weapons? Is it about extended magazines? Is there one that you believe Democrats should put their muscle behind today to get something done?

ESCOBAR: That is a great question, and it is also a terrible question, right, because the challenge that we face is so complex. When you look at the use of an assault-style weapon, okay, the fact that we haven't banned assault-style weapons, as the investigation of what happened on the scene of that crime in that little school with those sweet children and teachers, the fact of the matter is, I think one of the things that we will learn that will undoubtedly be true is that local police officers probably did not stand a chance in the immediate -- that security guard didn't stand a chance against someone with an assault-style weapon.

Remember, those bullets, Jim, they are not meant to harm someone. They are meant to destroy tissue, destroy bone. And why are those on the street? Why are those being sold? But then there's other low hanging fruit, like the background checks, which really could -- the background checks and closing the Charleston loophole, that could have saved lives.

Raising the age limit to 21, this is killer was 18. He was able to buy a gun. That is unacceptable. Making it illegal for him to have purchased a gun, that would have saved those kids.

SCIUTTO: Right after his 18th birthday, in fact. To your point, we have talked to trauma surgeons about what these high velocity weapons do inside bodies, particularly tiny bodies.

[10:30:01]

And they say it is literally like what you see in war zones.

Congresswoman Veronica Escobar, we do appreciate you taking the time this morning.

ESCOBAR: Thank you Jim.