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Interview With Rep. David Cicilline (D-RI); Criticism Grows Over Police Response to Uvalde Massacre. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired May 26, 2022 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:08]

ANA CABRERA, CNN HOST: Hello. I'm Ana Cabrera in New York. Thank you for being here.

Around the nation, flags are flying at half-staff, as grieving Americans reel from the mass shooting in Uvalde, Texas. And, as we learn more about what happened, we have new video that shows the shooter just before he ran into Robb Elementary School.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh. (INAUDIBLE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: A bystander captured this video. Moments later, that shooter would run through an unlocked door with two police officers right behind him. He shoots both officers.

And then, once inside a fourth grade classroom, he slaughters the two teachers and 19 children, the students just nine and 10 years old, one of those killed, Amerie Jo Garza.

And her father spoke with CNN. He was inconsolable, sharing that his daughter's best friend says Amerie was killed while calling 911 on her brand-new cell phone.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANGEL GARZA, FATHER OF SHOOTING VICTIM: I just want people to know that she just died trying to save her classmates.

She just wanted to save everyone.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: We have more video now that's tough to watch.

It's from outside the school while the gunman was inside. These are the desperate cries of frantic parents who heard the gunshots inside the school and are demanding that the police storm it. Despite the overwhelming police response, it may have taken as long as an hour for them to breach the barricaded classroom and take down the shooter. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LT. CHRISTOPHER OLIVAREZ, TEXAS DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY: We're trying to establish every single timeline as far as how long the shooter was inside the classroom. How long did the shooting take place?

But, as of right now, we have not been able to establish that. We want to provide factual information, as opposed to just providing timelines that are preliminary. We estimate anywhere from 40 minutes to an hour.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: Right now, I want to bring in my colleague Alisyn Camerota there in Uvalde.

And, Alisyn, it is now about two days after this horrific, horrific massacre. How's the community holding up?

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: Well, it's hard, Ana.

This was supposed to be the last day of school here at Robb Elementary, but, instead, this is the front page of the Uvalde newspaper today. It is all black. It says the date, May 24, 2022, and then the entire thing above and below the fold is black.

And that's the feeling of the community. We see all sorts of families and their children around. They're coming here. They're coming to the memorial. Maybe you can see it behind me. It's in front of the school, 21 little white crosses with the victims' names. There's tons of flowers and stuffed animals.

And we see lots of families and their kids coming and going. Sometimes, they stop and want to talk to us. More often than not, they don't. Everyone looks grief-stricken. It is a very, very tough town to be in right now because of all the raw grief.

And as you were just saying, Ana, part of the issue is what happened. They still don't have enough answers about what happened and why law enforcement wasn't able to go into the school sooner.

So let's bring in CNN crime and justice correspondent Shimon Prokupecz. He's here with me in Uvalde.

Shimon, having covered these so many times, my impression was that law enforcement in these drills that they are forced to do all the time have realized, you have to get into the school as fast as possible. There used to be a debate about it. Now we know, you got to get in there.

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Right.

You're supposed -- your form a team as quickly as you can, and you get inside and you neutralize the threat, right? That's what they're taught. We're not getting a lot of answers, really, from law enforcement

officials. It's coming -- it's kind of coming piece by piece, some of it murky, some of it contradictory. So that's what we're waiting for. We're waiting for a timeline from officials to describe to us what they did, each step they took to try and neutralize the threat and try and save these children.

So, hopefully, at some point, we will get that timeline. What's really -- what has everyone asking so many questions really is because it -- this gunman was in there for an hour, more than an hour, while police were trying to figure out how to get inside this classroom.

CAMEROTA: And while parents were beseeching the police officers: Get in there. Storm the building. Let us storm the building.

PROKUPECZ: That's right.

CAMEROTA: Fathers showed up and said...

PROKUPECZ: That's right.

CAMEROTA: ... if you won't go in, let us get in there.

Obviously, it would be chaos. I mean, obviously, there's a fog of war once you get in there. And I understand why police have to move with such -- in such a meticulous fashion.

And let me just also say these are unanswerable questions because, had they been able to get in sooner, who knows if anybody would have been saved.

PROKUPECZ: That's right.

CAMEROTA: It sounds like that they heard gunshots in the minutes right after he went in.

[13:05:00]

PROKUPECZ: Right.

CAMEROTA: Who knows.

PROKUPECZ: Right.

And that's the thing. Again, what were police seeing inside in those moments? How were they gathering? What efforts were they making to get inside? They have told us that they had a hard time breaching the door. The police lieutenant here this morning told us that there may have been a locking mechanism on the door, which would have made it difficult for police to get inside.

CAMEROTA: Which doesn't -- which also is confusing, because we -- it appears that the gunman was able to get in, with an unlocked door maybe.

PROKUPECZ: Right. So, the thing -- right. So, that's the other thing, Alisyn, you're

right, that there was -- the back door to the school was unlocked, and that the police said that he entered unimpeded. So, those questions, how is that possible that, in this day and age, with the threats that schools face all across this country, that this door was unlocked?

So, that is something that is part of the investigation. And you're right. I mean, parents showed up here in the minutes after there was word of a shooting here at the school, wanting to know what was going inside.

The fathers, seeing the officers outside, you can understand the frustration, wondering why they weren't inside. But, hopefully, we will get an account from the officers here, a more thorough timeline and a recreation of really what went on here in those really like minutes.

The first minutes are so critical here, and then, honestly, as we know, the fact that he was in there for an hour perhaps, certainly significant.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

OK, Shimon, we will wait for more reporting on that. Thank you very much -- Ana, back to you.

CABRERA: I want to bring in CNN law enforcement analyst Anthony Barksdale and Tim Gallagher, former FBI special agent in charge of the Washington field office.

Thank you both for being here.

Anthony, we don't have clarity on what took so long to end this massacre. But now we have heard from law enforcement, confirming that the shooter was inside the school for up to an hour before he was killed. And we have these new accounts from eyewitnesses that parents were coming on the scene and pleading with officers, yelling at them, urging them to go in.

What's your reaction to that?

ANTHONY BARKSDALE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: My reaction is that this sounds like a complete failure on behalf of the officers on the scene.

I can understand if an officer or two officers are down, you get them medical treatment. But you know what? We have still got to go in. If fellow officers are down, it does not stop us from trying to stop an active shooter.

Get him out, get him extracted, let's go. Let's push. Wherever there is sound of gunfire, if there's a little lull in the shooting, where do you hear the screams? Push. You go.

And the parents outside screaming for officers to go in, they were right. The officers have to go in -- into danger in these situations. And 40 minutes, 60 minutes, whatever, that's too long. And the stuff with the door, there are things for breaching doors in difficult situations.

And it doesn't sound like they were prepared. I believe the training collapsed or just internal failure on the officers there to take the appropriate measures.

CABRERA: Tim, Uvalde is a small town, about 16,000 people. So there were a number of different jurisdictions, outside agencies, different law enforcement responding to this scene.

Do you think, could that have created challenges in terms of trying to streamline the response?

TIM GALLAGHER, FORMER FBI SPECIAL AGENT: I will -- well, yes, thank you for having me on here today, Ana.

Yes, so in an active shooter situation, it's an all hands-on-deck situation. Everyone who's in the area, you got a badge, you got a gun, you're on site. And that's what happened here. I have been in active shooter situations in the past. And that's exactly what happened.

You get there, you put a plan together, and you enter. The situation here, they were on site. However, there's security measures that are put in place that are to actively protect the facility, which in some cases impede the emergency response.

We're also looking at officers on site looking at containment and evacuation as well. And the plans were put into place evidently on site for that.

CABRERA: You talk about what security measures may have been in place. And, in fact, minutes ago, we learned that the school district had invested very heavily to make school safer a couple of years ago, spending $450,000 for security and monitoring, hiring for police officers, hiring a company to monitor social media for threats and more.

The plan outlines 21 different security measures the district says it has undertaken. And yet, Anthony, it couldn't prevent this horrific massacre.

BARKSDALE: Well, look, even if it's outside jurisdictions or we don't know each other, Ana, if you showed up and I'm there, and you have -- you're from one department, I'm from another, we're going in. We're a team.

[13:10:13]

Then and there, I will take point. You have my back. Watch my back, and we're going to press. And we're going to find this shooter, regardless of what badge we're wearing, what patch. We go.

So, all of this money invested has been a waste, because it just failed all of these little kids and teachers the that died under this -- this attack. So...

CABRERA: It's so painful to think about -- about the children and the teachers and just the people who were in that room with this gunman for up to an hour.

And we know there are survivors from inside that room, thank God, but to think what they were going through for up to an hour.

Tim, I want to pivot the conversation for a moment, because there are still, I think, a lot of questions about how an 18-year-old could get his hands on these AR-style weapons. And it was legal there in Texas for him to purchase these weapons. We're told he passed background checks.

And so there has been focus in Congress on strengthening background checks as a way to help prevent gun violence. Just how thorough are federal background checks currently?

GALLAGHER: Well, yes, obviously, the FBI operates a background check system nationwide, which was in effect here, where you apply for a background check when you go in to buy a firearm.

If you have a felony conviction, if you have a mental health issue that's been adjudicated, that's actually been put into the system, that will ping on it, and you will be denied a firearm. However, the data in the system is only as good as what's put into it, right?

And so the states are responsible for putting that information into the system. There can be things that happened in the military which may not have made it into the system, things that may have happened which have not been adjudicated yet as far as mental health issues go, which would not be in the issue -- which would not be in the system, and which would not send up a red flag and keep an individual from getting a weapon.

But, here, they were obtained legally, because the FBI runs a system. And if the red flag doesn't go up, they can be given the firearm.

CABRERA: But, Tim, could there be additional measures taken to strengthen the background checks, not just expand background checks, but to maybe make each background check or each requirement a little bit more robust?

GALLAGHER: Yes, it's a good question, Ana.

Coming from law enforcement, coming from Kroll, where I am now, I'm a threat management professional, not a litigator -- not a legislator, right?

This is what -- the tools that law enforcement are given right now. Work within them to keep guns out of the hands of bad guys, based upon what you have right now. That would be my response.

CABRERA: Tim Gallagher and Anthony Barksdale, thank you both so much for the conversation and for lending your expertise and insights -- Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: So, Ana, as 21 families face the agonizing task now of planning funerals, the community of Uvalde comes together to mourn these children and teachers.

Last night, there was a community prayer vigil for all of them. And people were, as you can see, grief-stricken.

CNN's Lucy Kafanov is at University Hospital in San Antonio.

So, Lucy, tell us what the latest is on the patients who are being treated there.

LUCY KAFANOV, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Alisyn.

And we know that four patients are being treated here as we speak. Separately from that, two other adult victims of the Uvalde shooting are being treated at the Brooke Army Medical Center in San Antonio, both in serious condition.

But as for the patients here at University Health, we have the grandmother of the shooter. We know that from law enforcement officials, Celia, 66 years old. She was shot in the face by the gunman, medevaced here in critical condition.

It improved to serious yesterday, no change as of this morning. But we also know that three young children are being treated here, three little girls. Two of them, a 10-year-old and a 9-year-old, are listed in good condition this morning. Another one is still fighting for her life. Her condition remains serious.

The University Health pediatric trauma medical director said that the little girl sustained very serious injuries. She described them as destructive wounds. These are large areas of tissue missing from the body. Emergency surgery. There was a lot of blood loss that these girls experienced.

[13:15:03]

And you have to keep in mind, Alisyn, that this gunman used an AR-15- style rifle. The bullet holes that we see, the wounds that we see in the movie, that little hole, does not happen from this kind of a gun. The wounds that are sustained from this kind of a weapon shred tissue. They destroy the human body, let alone the body of a young child.

And I know that it's graphic to think about, but this is the reality that these doctors and these patients and these families are dealing with, those that survived.

The girls are doing relatively well. But Dr. Lillian Liao, the, again, director of the University Health Pediatric Trauma Medical Center, got emotional when thinking about the little kids who did not make it.

Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DR. LILLIAN LIAO, PEDIATRIC TRAUMA MEDICAL CENTER DIRECTOR, UNIVERSITY HEALTH: I think that's what hit us the most, not of the patients that we did receive, and we were -- we are honored to treat them, but the patients that we did not receive.

That -- I think that that is the most challenging aspect of our job right now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAFANOV: And it's trauma for the whole community here.

The doctors at this hospital also treated victims from the 2017 Sutherland Springs shooting, some of them also children. The girls right now recovering, they're expected to make it, but, for now, it does remain a waiting game -- Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: Yes, as you point out, Lucy, these are weapons of war. And the idea -- it's hard to think about even the impact on 10-year-old bodies.

Thank you very much.

Ana, as you just heard, I mean, the ripple effect of everyone who is traumatized by this, from the community, even to the doctors treating them.

CABRERA: Yes. And we know this country has more guns than people.

But most Americans back tougher gun laws. Other nations have cracked down, and see results. So what's stopping lawmakers in D.C.?

And the psychological impact will last long after the physical wounds have healed and the victims have been buried. How to talk about this tragedy with your children -- ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:21:26]

CAMEROTA: I'm Alisyn Camerota in Uvalde, Texas.

The horror that happened in the elementary school just behind me is only the latest evidence of the gun violence epidemic in the U.S. But there are potential signs that the devastation of these 19 children being murdered may lead to some compromise on gun reform.

CNN's Lauren Fox is live on Capitol Hill for us.

And, Lauren, I understand that you just spoke exclusively to Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell. What did he tell you?

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, McConnell making it clear to us that he met this morning with Senator John Cornyn, the senior senator from Texas, who was just back in his state yesterday talking to local officials and grieving families. And he said he made it clear to Texas Senator Cornyn that he wanted

him to engage with Democratic colleagues, people like Senator Kyrsten Sinema, as well as Senator Chris Murphy, to try to find a solution that is directly related to what transpired in Texas.

Now, this negotiation really could signal the beginning of very important talks, because, for months, Murphy and Cornyn had tried to find some consensus on background checks, and just couldn't get there. It's important to remember that McConnell often doesn't issue edicts to his members. He likes members to get to conclusions on their own.

But it is still incredibly important that you have your leadership's blessing when engaging in high-stake talks like gun reform legislation. Now, this has limits on it. It is not necessarily carte blanche to negotiate every bit of gun reform. But it is just the smallest opening, Alisyn, that something may be moving up here on Capitol Hill.

CAMEROTA: That is really interesting. And it's a big development.

Lauren Fox, thank you very much.

And, just to be clear, there's no country in the world that has more firearms than Americans do.

CNN's Tom Foreman joins us now with the staggering numbers.

Tom, what have you seen?

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, if lawmakers want to deal with this, it's a big, big hill to climb, 120 guns for every 100 Americans.

Every single person you see, imagine a gun, and for every fourth or fifth one, add an extra one in there. That's how many guns we're talking about in this country, more guns than there are cars. That's one way of thinking of it as well.

Compared to other countries, 120.5 in the United States. Look at this, 62 for every 100 people in the Falkland Islands, and, in Yemen -- they have been involved in a seven year-armed conflict -- 53 per 100 people. Compared to global ownership overall, big numbers out there, 330 million people in the United States, 393 million guns.

The rest of the world 7.4 billion people, and they're just edging you out -- the U.S. out collectively the total number of guns, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: And, Tom, what about the process to buy a gun in the U.S. compared to other countries?

FOREMAN: This is one of the chief targets of people who are concerned about this.

Look what happens in Canada, yes, a little different province to province, town to town, but, as a general rule, you have to obtain a license, after a waiting period. You have to submit a photo and signature of the photo guarantor, somebody saying that's definitely you.

You have to go to a gun safety course and pass written and practical tests. You have to complete a background check, when they look into your mental health, domestic violence, history, all sorts of questions of whether you pose a risk, including whether you post dangerous, threatening things on the Internet.

You have to provide references. And you have to have some check back on the people that you have lived with or been around in the past couple of years to make sure you don't pose a threat to them, all of this so you can get a gun in Canada.

[13:25:06]

And in the United States, in general terms, again, different state to state maybe, but pass an instant background check if buying from an authorized seller, and no restrictions if you're buying from a gun show or, in some states, from a private seller.

Huge, huge difference. The U.S. continues to have some of, if not the most liberal gun laws in the world. They certainly fit into that category. That's why making changes here, Alisyn, at the law level, any other way, cultural level, it's big. It's hard. There are a lot of guns out there.

CAMEROTA: Tom, that's really valuable context.

Tom Foreman, thank you very much.

Ana, I will just let you know, as I send it back to you, we're just preparing for a press conference that is going to be coming from officials here in half-an-hour. So, we're getting ready for that.

CABRERA: OK. And so we're going to let you prepare for that. And, of course, you will bring us new details as you learn them on the ground.

Let's head back to Capitol Hill for a moment, where bipartisan talks are under way over possible gun violence reform.

And joining us now is Democratic Congressman David Cicilline of Rhode Island.

Congressman, thanks for being here.

Tom just laid out how the U.S. compares to other countries. It's clear America is failing when it comes to gun violence. What do you see as the solution here?

REP. DAVID CICILLINE (D-RI): Well, there's no question.

When children cannot go to school safely and go to school and return home alive, we have failed them. The House passed two pieces of legislation to expand and strengthen background checks, criminal background checks, and to close the Charleston loophole that allows people to buy a gun, even if a background check is not completed in three days. And those are sitting in the Senate. So, the first thing is to pass

those bills and get them to the president's desk. We also need to make sure that people who are dangerous to themselves or others don't have easy access to a firearm or access at all, these red flag laws.

We have a great bill in the House. We have dozens of bills that reduce gun violence. We need to bring them to the House floor, pass them, and send them over to the Senate.

But I think the American people, rightly, are sick and tired of the rituals, of the lowering the flags, of the prayer vigils, of the wringing of our hands. They expect Congress to act. And our Republican colleagues have stood in the way of anything, even something as basic as background checks.

But I think, hopefully, this most recent tragedy will begin to change that -- their attitude, and they will work with Democrats to enact some commonsense gun safety measures.

CABRERA: And yet you have Republicans who are pointing to the fact that this shooter apparently had no criminal history, no mental health history.

And so Lindsey Graham, for example, has said he feels no law could have prevented Tuesday's massacre. Listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): I can't assure the American people there's any law we can pass to stop this shooting. This man had no criminal record. He shot his grandmother in the face. He lawfully purchased a gun.

I don't know how -- I can't tell people that -- I can't think of a law that would have stopped this particular shooting. Are there other things we can do? Let's see if we can.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: What's your response to that?

CICILLINE: Yes, for sure, there's one law that -- yes.

I mean, first of all, that's always the argument of people who oppose commonsense gun safety legislation. There's not one law that's going to end all gun violence in America. But it's a combination of bills that will significantly reduce gun violence in this country.

One law that would have prevented what happened is an assault weapons ban. He wouldn't have been able to buy the gun he bought that day. Second off, we don't know enough about the mental health history of this individual, whether there were any mental health providers who would have notified law enforcement and prevented him from buying guns had a red flag law been in place.

So we don't know this. But we know background checks work; 3.5 million gun sales have been denied since background checks were put into place. The problem is, there are a lot of gun sales that don't require a background check. So we need to fix that.

We have had over 200 mass killings in this country this year alone, 27 school shootings. We have a gun violence epidemic, and we have a lot of proposals that can make a real difference. We need our Republican colleagues to understand we can no longer live in a country with this level of gun violence.

This is an American problem, a gun violence epidemic that doesn't exist anywhere else in the world, because it's too easy for individuals, particularly dangerous individuals and criminals, to get their hands on guns, particularly assault rifles, assault weapons. And we have a lot of proposals in the House.

My view is, we need to bring those to the floor...

CABRERA: OK.

CICILLINE: ... pass them and send them to the Senate, and hold people accountable who are not willing to support commonsense gun safety legislation.

CABRERA: So, as we're discussing the realm of possibilities in terms of what action can be taken, you have proposed a bill last year that would ban the sale, transfer, manufacture and importation of military- style assault weapons, notably, didn't have any Republicans on board.

And some have expressed openness to other measures, like Mitt Romney, who says expanding background checks is something to look at. But he argues banning weapons like AR-15s should be left to the states.

CICILLINE: Well, look, we know, as the president said in his remarks, when we had an assault weapons ban in place, it worked.

Mass shootings declined dramatically. And, when it expired, they tripled in number. So, we know it works.

[13:30:00]