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Tx Police: Door To School Used By Gunman Was Apparently Unlocked, No Armed Personnel Was On Site; Tx Police: First Officers At Scene Pursued Gunman Inside School, Withdrew And Called For Backup After Taking Fire; NRA To Hold Convention In Houston Tomorrow Despite Massacre; Guns Are Banned During Trump's Upcoming NRA Conference Speech; Efforts To Enact Gun Control Routinely Fizzle After Mass Shooting; Rep. Trey Martinez Fischer (D-TX) Discuss About What Texas Was Supposed To Do To Protect Children In Schools. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired May 26, 2022 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ROSS MCGLOTHLIN, FORMER PRINCIPAL, ROBB ELEMENTARY SCHOOL: Absolutely. Absolutely. It's part of the state law. It's something that is practiced on campuses across the state on at least a quarterly basis. Students and teachers, support staff are very familiar with lockdown procedures.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: What were the specific lockdown procedures when you were principal?

MCGLOTHLIN: Notification of teachers that they needed to lock down. Through the years, we have learned that it's best to call it what it is rather than to use code words that can tend to confuse in a crisis moment. So we have used cell phone communication in our drills to be able to communicate among classrooms. Administrators and other key personnel use radios that allow us to communicate so, so these are all parts of those procedures.

BLACKWELL: Would there have been ...

MCGLOTHLIN: I will add to that, that ...

BLACKWELL: ... go ahead.

MCGLOTHLIN: ... in a lockdown procedure that even those doors that lead to the interior of campus are locked at that moment. So the intention is to not only locked students and staff inside of classrooms, but to lock out anyone that is attempting to enter the building that is unauthorized.

BLACKWELL: Based on the lockdown procedures, should there have been an announcement over the intercom that went through the entire building saying that there is a threat, there is a shooter in the building?

MCGLOTHLIN: Again, since I am not there, I hesitate to speculate on the procedures that are currently being used by Uvalde CISD. I can share with you that on my campus that I'm currently the principal of that's precisely what we do. We use the PA system as the primary means to initiate a lockdown.

BLACKWELL: When you're in there, last question, when you were principal, were there surveillance cameras in the hallways or just at the entrances and exits?

MCGLOTHLIN: I believe that there were cameras inside, but I can't be sure.

BLACKWELL: All right.

MCGLOTHLIN: I know that on the perimeter that there would be cameras.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

MCGLOTHLIN: And I shouldn't speculate.

BLACKWELL: All right. Ross McGlothlin, former principal of Robb Elementary, I thank you for offering some clarity, especially about those doors and the security elements there at the school. Thank you so much.

All right. Top of the hour on CNN NEWSROOM. Good to have you with us. I'm Victor Blackwell.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: And I'm Alisyn Camerota in Uvalde, Texas. I'm here at the scene of the school shooting. Robb Elementary is just behind me, perhaps, you can see all of the people visiting this memorial and paying their respects to the 19 children killed and two teachers.

We have just gotten some new information from officials about what unfolded that day.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VICTOR ESCALON, SOUTH TEXAS REGIONAL DIRECTOR, DEPT. OF PUBLIC SAFETY: He walked in undisrupted initially. So from the grandmother's house to the (inaudible) to the school into the school, he was not confronted by anybody to clear the record on that. Four minutes later, law enforcement are coming in to solve this problem.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: That official went on to say that there was no school officer, safety officer on campus at the time. That's new information. We didn't know that. It also appears that the gunman entered a door that was unlocked. CNN Shimon Prokupecz has been following this story since the very beginning. So what jumped out at you?

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CRIME & JUSTICE REPORTER: Well, Alisyn, you're right, it's new information. But not only is it new, it's completely different from what they've told us. Initially, they said there was this resource officer. Remember, they claimed there was this engagement. (inaudible) what they meant that there was something going on here, so that's completely new. And the timeline, we've been asking, give us a minute by minute, play

by play of what went on here. And finally they did, but they still didn't answer a lot of questions and they left gaps, specifically in my exchange with the director here about a gap, an hour gap between 11:44 and 12:44 when the gunman is in this classroom. They have told us he was barricaded and what was going on inside that school during that hour.

CAMEROTA: We now know there was some negotiation going on.

PROKUPECZ: That's right and he said there was some new negotiation. Take a listen to my exchange with that official.

[15:05:01]

ESCALON: So, look, we appreciate the questions ...

PROKUPECZ (off camera): But what were the officers doing between 11:44 and 12:44 ...

ESCALON: I got you.

PROKUPECZ (off camera): ... when the suspect was barricaded behind that?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Inaudible) a lot of questions.

ESCALON: Yes, sir.

PROKUPECZ (off camera): You guys have said that he was barricaded. Can you explain to us how he was barricaded and why you guys cannot reach that door?

ESCALON: So I have taken all your questions in consideration. We will be doing updates. We will be doing updates to answer those questions.

PROKUPECZ (off camera): No. But you're here now and you should be able to answer that question now, sir.

ESCALON: What is your name Shimon?

PROKUPECZ (off camera): Shimon Prokupecz from CNN.

ESCALON: Shimon, I hear you.

PROKUPECZ (off camera): Because we've been given a lot of bad information, so why don't you clear all of this off now and explain to us how it is that your officers that were in there for an hour - yes, rescuing people, but yet no one was able to get inside that room.

ESCALON: Shimon, we will circle back with you. We want to answer all your questions. We want to give you the why. That's our job, so give us time. I've taken all of your questions, I'm taking them back, talk to the team (inaudible) ...

PROKUPECZ (off camera): But can you tell us how the door was barricaded.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (Inaudible) ...

ESCALON: Thank you for being here.

PROKUPECZ (off camera): How was the door barricaded?

ESCALON: We'll talk soon.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PROKUPECZ: And that's the thing, they said this door was barricaded. It's an important part of this because they have said that it was very hard for them to get inside this room. There was gunfire. They had to wait for the tactical team. He revealed in this press conference that they waited an hour for this tactical team, for the Border Patrol to get here and so that took some time.

He also said that the gunfire at some point stopped. So then the question becomes well, what then prevented you from getting inside, you can argue there was a fear of gunfire, but the police in these situations are supposed to run towards the gunfire to neutralize the threat. So we do still, obviously, do have a lot of questions.

And the other thing, Alisyn, that I want to point out is that there were people still inside that classroom.

CAMEROTA: There were children.

PROKUPECZ: Children inside that classroom that were not rescued. That they were not able to get to them until the gunman was dead.

CAMEROTA: But you make the point, there were children who were alive ...

PROKUPECZ: Alive.

CAMEROTA: ... also in that classroom. So it's possible that the children were killed very quickly and that would - nobody would ever have stopped it.

PROKUPECZ: There was ...

CAMEROTA: That's one possibility. There's another possibility and we know this to be true that there were children who were still alive in that classroom ...

PROKUPECZ: Correct.

CAMEROTA: ... and were later rescued who had to sit there for an hour playing dead or something.

PROKUPECZ: Something hiding under tables.

CAMEROTA: Hiding, yes. Yes. We also found out that there was an exchange of gunfire with some

neighbors here who own, I guess, who are part of the funeral home here. We didn't know that.

PROKUPECZ: Right. We didn't know that. We - he said that he fires towards people on the street. He climbs over a fence and then the shooting - he's shooting at the school and we now learn that the police are not here yet at that moment.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

PROKUPECZ: Right? This is something that the police are not here at the moment.

CAMEROTA: But they did - they said they did respond quickly.

PROKUPECZ: They did respond quickly.

CAMEROTA: They said four minutes or something.

PROKUPECZ: Yes, something like that. So there's this gunfire, they're here. He gets inside the school and then they go in eventually, right? There in there pretty quickly, 11:40 or so, 11:44 they make entry. They're inside the school.

CAMEROTA: But then they retreat.

PROKUPECZ: Exactly, right.

CAMEROTA: These two officers who took fire ...

PROKUPECZ: They were shot.

CAMEROTA: ... were shot and were injured ...

PROKUPECZ: Right.

CAMEROTA: ... not grievously.

PROKUPECZ: Right.

CAMEROTA: They retreat. And then the big question is, as we've heard from Juliette, as we've heard from all of our law enforcement experts, when the tactical team - why couldn't the tactical team go in much, much, much more quickly? Shimon, thank you very much for all of your reporting.

Let's bring in now Andrew McCabe. He's our CNN Senior Law Enforcement Analyst and former FBI Deputy Director. Andy, great to have you here. What are your thoughts?

ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Wow. So many questions. I'm just kind of sitting here going over some of those comments in the press conference. And they are really just - I think we have - there's - we realize there's less that we know now as a result of that press conference. One of the things that jumped out at me, Alisyn, is the Regional

Director from the Department of Public Safety indicated when he was describing the subject's entry at 11:40 in the school to the west side door and then he begins to describe that they know based on, I'm quoting, "Video outside and inside the school, that he fired multiple, numerous rounds in the school."

So it's hard to say that any of this actually answers any questions because things are changing so quickly here, but he indicated that there is video from inside the school. I know that was a question that Victor had to the former principal and we weren't able to really get too much confirmation of that.

It's just an incredible situation and I think what you're seeing is they are really struggling with poor communication right now, which is really kind of exacerbating everybody's concern about what actually happened.

BLACKWELL: Yes. And certainly the parents. Again, this may be frustrating for us because we're trying to get answers, but the parents, they have lost their children.

[15:10:01]

I mean those are obviously the people who deserve to have these answers immediately. And Andrew, let me ask you this, when Victor Escalon says that, while they were making calls calling for backup, calling for negotiators, they were breaking out the windows, getting kids out getting other faculty out. How many people should they have waited for before they went into that room? I mean, what is the team that you need to go in? If you've heard the shots, you know there are children with this shooter, what team do you need to assemble before you go in?

MCCABE: Well, Victor, we know that according to the way that active shooter training is deployed, now, it is, in the most case, police officers are taught that you need a team of three. Once you have three officers, whether they're SWAT tactical guys or just patrol officers, once you have three, you go into the required formation and you make entry into that space, wherever the shooter is. By the Regional Director's account, they had three at 11:44, the two Uvalde officers and the school resource officer. It is (inaudible) ...

BLACKWELL: So by your assessment, that is when they should have gotten in, at 11:44 they had three officers, make the move. Is that what you're saying?

MCCABE: You could make the argument that any one of those individual officers should have gone in even earlier than that, but certainly by 11:44, they have three officers there. That would be consistent with the training.

Now, I don't know everything that was going through these guys' heads or what was actually happening on the ground. It's is hard to understand that. But by the training, how it's typically delivered, three is the number you move with. CAMEROTA: Yes. We don't know if the Uvalde Police Department or

Sheriff's Department had that training, but the Feds did. Right, Andrew? I mean, the Feds did and so there was this huge response. Law enforcement response from Customs and Border Patrol to beyond and it sounds like - I've just - I'm so unclear on why it took an hour for the tactical team to get in position and go in.

MCCABE: Yes. So it's a very small town, it's a remote place, it may be that those assets took some time to actually get there. But once they're there, they should be - they should be armored up and ready to go very, very quickly. That's certainly what it's called for.

Another thing I would point out, we've heard a couple of people say that they think that most of the fatalities took place very early on in the first few minutes that the shooter was in the room. That would be consistent with other mass shooters. But what is that conclusion based on at this point? Did - we still haven't heard, were those officers who sat there for an hour, were they hearing additional shots take place in that room? And if so, that greatly changes the calculation of whether or not you wait for backup or go in.

BLACKWELL: Andy, last thing here, this school resource officer which we just learned from the narrative we just received from DPS that there was no officer who engaged or encountered this shooter before he went into the building. I want you to listen to what the spokesman for DPS, same department told John Berman this morning about that officer.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LT. CHRIS OLIVAREZ, SPOKESMAN, TEXAS DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY: So yes, as you mentioned, of course, our main focus right now as the lead investigating agency is to provide factual information, gather the facts. Right now, we were trying to establish and cooperate exactly what was that role for that initial school resource officer. Was he responding in his vehicle? Was this - was (inaudible) office vehicle? What was the difference between him and the shooter?

So we're trying to establish exactly what was his role and how did he encounter the shooter. So we spoke to that school resource officer yesterday evening, our Texas Rangers did an interview with him, so I'm hoping to receive updated information today at some point.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: That was today. That not only was there an encounter, there was some engagement, but they interviewed him. And now by the middle of the afternoon, there was no officer at all, how can that happen?

MCCABE: It's - there's just no way to resolve the conflict between those two statements that we've now gotten from the same agency. And you have to think about this from the parents' perspective, victim's perspective, every time you get another conflict and miscommunication. That agency loses credibility in the eyes of these victims.

And so at some point, we're going to conclude this investigation and you want those victims to believe and have confidence in the conclusions you draw. And they are really jeopardizing that at this point by not communicating effectively, the same person, at the same time every day, regularly scheduled conference - press conferences where we actually get real information. It's just - it's a bit of a mess moment, I'm afraid.

CAMEROTA: Andrew McCabe, thank you. We always appreciate your expertise. So tomorrow, just a few a hundred miles away from here in Uvalde, the NRA's annual meeting will begin in Houston.

[15:15:04]

And three of the musicians that were scheduled to perform there are now pulling out in protest. Still in the lineup is former President Donald Trump as well as Texas Senator Ted Cruz. Now, according to the NRA's website, no firearms will be allowed, while Donald Trump is present.

Let's bring in David Hogg. As you know, he survived the Parkland School shooting in 2018. He's now a gun safety advocate and a board member of March for Our Lives. David, I'm always happy to see you and I'm always sad about the circumstances when you and I mostly talk, what are your thoughts today?

DAVID HOGG, PARKLAND SHOOTING SURVIVOR: My thoughts today are that we've seen - we know what we disagree on. There's a lot of conversation, especially right now about the circumstances around the shooting and how it could have been prevented by law enforcement on the scene and by school resource officers.

Alisyn, I got to be honest with you, if we're stopping - if all we're doing to stop our kids from dying is by trying to stop the shooter once they're in a parking lot or once they're in our street, we're failing our kids because we are risking the lives of our children by doing that even when there are school resource officers.

A lot of the time like in Parkland, they don't end up being able to do their job successfully, because they're outgunned. And there's these - the reality is, is that it takes time for these people to respond. So we're not only going to be risking the lives of our children, we're also risking the lives of law enforcement at the same time in these situations. And the best solution in my view is to stop that shooter (inaudible) ...

CAMEROTA: David, yes, you're so right. I mean, I'm glad you point this out, because the fallacy that a school safety officer can stop a school shooting, we've just seen it destroyed. I mean, Columbine, had unarmed one or two armed officers, the Buffalo supermarket had an armed officer. Parkland, as you point out, did. It just - it doesn't work when a school shooter shows up. I mean, we've just seen this time and again.

And David, one of the things that marked Parkland as different was that you all swung into action so quickly. And, of course, it's because you were teenagers, as opposed to these 19 children who were 10 years old or younger. But you swung into action and in fact, you were - what you did could be used as a blueprint in other states so quickly. I mean, within weeks, what did you change in Florida after that school shooting?

HOGG: So what we changed is we got - change it - we met, we found common ground, we worked with our Republican state legislature with Gov. Rick Scott and others and we figured out what - we know what we don't agree on, Alisyn, we needed to figure out what we could agree on. And what we found was middle ground on raising the age to 21 and establishing extreme risk protection orders that disarm people that are a threat to themselves or others through a court order or due process.

And that law has been used hundreds, if not thousands of times in Florida and it's been used in my - with my own family. Somebody sent a death threat to my own mother that said, I'm paraphrasing here, but essentially F with the NRA and you'll be DOA. And in that we call law enforcement and they were able to disarm that individual through a court order. And he did have guns, right? They have due process and things like that.

The point that I'm getting at, Alisyn, is as Americans, this time can be different, but we must choose to make it different. And the way that we can do that is we're calling for a march on June 11th, a second march of Americans across the country, from Democrats to Republicans, gun owners, non-gun owners, NRA members, non-NRA members, because we all agree here.

I refuse to believe that we are divided. I've talked to many people who disagree with me. We all agree ultimately that kids shouldn't be dying in their schools and communities. Grandmas shouldn't be dying in the grocery stores. So if people want to march with us, they need to text march to 954954. Once again, that's march to 954954. This is not a political movement, this is a human movement. We need to figure out what we can do, even if small and it just saves one life.

CAMEROTA: David, you're so right. I mean, so many gun owners that I've spoken to as well hate the situation that we are in. And you, of course, and the work that you've done, as well as so many of your classmates and colleagues proves that we don't have to be paralyzed. David Hogg, always good to talk to you. Thank you very much for being with us.

HOGG: Thank you.

BLACKWELL: All right. When we come back, will Texas tighten gun laws after this tragedy? We'll speak with the Texas lawmakers about that next.

Also ahead, Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell says that he directed Texas Senator John Cornyn to hold bipartisan talks on gun reform. More on that also.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:23:53] BLACKWELL: This week's massacre of 19 children, two teachers has so

many people asking a painfully familiar question. Will this time be different? There's actually evidence that the opposite may be true here.

CAMEROTA: Because there's this 2019 study that found that after high profile mass shootings, not only do lawmakers failed to pass gun safety legislation, but in some Republican-controlled states they actually loosen gun laws.

Joining us now is Texas State Representative Trey Martinez Fischer. Representative, thank you very much for being here. What is Texas going to do to protect 10-year-olds in their schools?

REP. TREY MARTINEZ FISCHER (D-TX): I'll I tell you, we need to do more than thoughts and prayers. This is just a horrific tragedy, lives have been destroyed. We have seen this in the most recent past. We've had a lot of experience with mass violence and it just really flummoxed me that we can go from shooting police officers in Dallas to shooting churchgoers in Sutherland Springs to attacking high school students in Santa Fe, shoppers at a Wal-Mart in El Paso and now Uvalde.

[15:25:04]

And before we could even have a discussion, our Governor says we don't need new laws. I mean, that is not the solution. The solution is we cannot expect a different outcome, if we're not willing to change the inputs in the process. We need to have a responsible discussion about responsible gun reforms in the state. Too many people are dying, too many lives are being destroyed and there is a lot of heartache going on in Uvalde, Texas right now and it is not necessary.

BLACKWELL: Beyond the generalities, though, sir, what specifically should the Texas Legislature do in response to this tragedy to hopefully prevent the next one?

FISCHER: Well, number one, we need to remind ourselves of our legislative duty. Our constitutional authority, (inaudible) legislature, we write the laws. The governor doesn't think we need a new law. That's on his watch. We have our job to do. And here's what we can start, we know that the Republican Lieutenant Governor Dan Patrick has indicated in the past, he thinks there is space for universal background checks. That is a great start.

I think there's a lot of people talking about coming up with sensible red flag laws, giving Samaritans, giving people the ability to go somewhere when they feel like somebody is going to inflict violence on somebody else so we can take away their guns before it happens. We should start there. I'm hopeful that in Congress, they're talking about having a bipartisan discussion.

Unfortunately, that has not started here in the state of Texas, but we should really begin to do that, because I do believe that the public supports what we're doing and I have to tell you, this Victor, I'm losing hope, on the politics that we can fix this as a matter of public policy. Politicians have lost the high ground on this. This is a moral issue. This is a human issue. We need to come together and start listening to the voices of our community, because they want reforms.

CAMEROTA: So Representative, I just want to be clear on what you're saying. You actually have more hope today in Congress, in the U.S. Congress, which has been paralyzed for years, which did nothing after Sandy Hook than in the Texas State Legislature after all the carnage that you just laid out? You guys are not having conversations yet about what to do now.

FISCHER: No. Being very, very clear that that is not what I'm saying. But if you look with all the obstruction that's happening in Washington, at least they are sitting down to talk. In Texas, we're not doing that. We've always said that we are different than Washington, that we come together, we will work through a crisis, we will find solutions, we will find common ground, in some instances, we will find higher ground. But that's not happening here.

What disappoints me and what makes me mad is that we can have an official like the Governor just cut off the idea of even talking about new laws in the State of Texas. With all due respect to the Governor, that is the legislature job, that is my job. And so I think with all due speed, we need to convene in Austin to have this discussion. And like I said, let's begin where we've had some agreement, universal background checks, red flag laws. Let's start there and let's see what else we can do.

BLACKWELL: Representative, we've heard some inconsistent statements from the Department of Public Safety there about the timeline, the officials involved, law enforcement officials. What is your degree of confidence in their investigation into this tragedy?

FISCHER: Yes. No, thank you for that question. I mean, this is all new and developing but, of course, there are going to be layers of investigations and looking at timelines and chronologies and who did what, when and where. Here's what I believe, I believe that we need an all of the above strategy. We need independent investigations. We need our federal authorities to come in.

A lot of us are very surprised that you know, Customs and Border Protection were some of the first to arrive at the scene when we have a school police, when we have a local police, when we have a Department of Public Safety, a state police, we should get our federal authorities and investigators, inspector generals and so forth to really get to the bottom of things and figure out what happened and when. I mean, there was a lot of anguish to learn of a shooter with weapons of war in a classroom for 40 minutes to an hour. We need to really understand did something break down and where did it break down and under whose watch.

BLACKWELL: All right. We got to wrap it here. I just want to make sure I heard you say this that ...

CAMEROTA: Representative, do you want - yes, go ahead.

BLACKWELL: I just want to get this, Alisyn, you said you want an independent investigation, correct?

FISCHER: Yes, sir.

BLACKWELL: Okay. Alisyn, I'm sorry. Go ahead.

CAMEROTA: Well, I just was going to ask, do you understand why there was no school resource officer?

[15:29:59]

Meaning, someone who is a guard on the campus or is that common across Texas? Were you surprised to hear that just now at the press conference?