Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Protests Erupt Outside NRA Convention in Wake of Massacre; NRA Holds Convention in Houston Today Despite Massacre; Relative of Victims of Mass Shootings React to Uvalde Massacre; Holiday Travelers Hit the Road Despite Inflation, High Gas Prices. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired May 27, 2022 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:30:00]

(AUDIO GAP)

LARRY GATLIN, COUNTRY SINGER AND SONGWRITER: -- the NRA, I'm a card carrying member of the NRA and have been for 40 years, as was my father and are my two brothers. I canceled it because I didn't think it was a good time to go down to Houston and have a party with them digging 21 fresh graves in the valley of my precious beloved Texas.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: A live look outside the convention center in Houston. They're there to protest the gun lobby. CNN's Camila Bernal is there. So, tell us what's happening.

CAMILA BERNAL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Victor, we're hearing from passionate people who are demanding change. Who are demanding for their voices to be heard. You can hear it as I speak right now, and this is all happening as the convention is going on as planned.

Just to give you some perspective, this is a park right across the street from that convention center. You can see the signs, the NRA signs from where we are standing, and instead, you're seeing a crowd that is angry, that is frustrated. You hear it in the chants as they're calling for some of their political leaders to be voted out of power. You can see it in their signs that say change actions, no thoughts and prayers. Instead change and action, signs that say lives are more important than guns. They want change.

You're seeing also a lot of pictures of the victims from the Uvalde shooting, and just in general a community that says they are tired of seeing these shootings happening over and over again. They also heard from a number of political leaders. Among them, Beto O'Rourke, who is the gubernatorial candidate here in Texas, the Democrat running for that governor's seat. I want to show you part of what he said here.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BETO O'ROURKE (D) CANDIDATE FOR TEXAS GOVERNOR: There are some including those who've lost those who are most dear to them who will say it is too soon for us to talk about what we are going to do to prevent this from ever happening again. But I hope that you agree with me that the time for us to have stopped Uvalde was right after Sandy Hook. The time for us to have stopped Uvalde was right after Parkland. (END VIDEO CLIP)

[15:35:00]

BERNAL: Throughout the day we've seen a huge focus on getting people involved, getting people out to vote in November because they say that that's the only way that they're going to be able to get some change -- Alisyn, Victor.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: Camila Bernal thank you very much for that reporting.

And joining us now is Ryan Busse. He's a former firearms executive who worked for the gun manufacturer Kimber for 25 years. He's also the author of "Gunfight, My Battle Against the Industry That Radicalized America." Ryan, thanks so much for being here. Can you help us understand this. Are the NRA and the gun manufacturers, are they comfortable that so many teenage boys keep -- I should say unstable teenage boys keep getting their hands on these high powered weapons and causing such havoc?

RYAN BUSSE, FORMER FIREARMS EXECUTIVE: No, nobody is comfortable with that. And I have a lot of bones to pick with the industry and the NRA. Nobody is ever comfortable with it. But the problem is they're OK with it. Kind of like, you know, pollution in a river, you just flush it down the stream for somebody else to deal with. So, it's not that anybody wishes for these sorts of horrific things to happen and all of the executives and people I know, they have kids too. Many of them have kids, and it touches them, but somehow, they can rationalize it, and again, just let that pollution float on down for somebody else to deal with.

CAMEROTA: That's an interesting analogy. Because I'm not suggesting that they're happy about it, I just don't understand why they don't want to do anything about it. This is a horrible, I would think, black mark on this industry that they love. Why are they not doing anything about this?

BUSSE: Yes, I think it's important to understand the reason inaction happens is because much like the rest of the country has radicalized by the same tactics of the NRA. If you want to create inaction, you tell a group of people that they're marginalized and being attacked and that the liberals will use these horrible deaths to come take their freedoms and their freedoms are more important than anything on the earth and those freedoms importantly are absolute. In other words, that the right to bear and own guns is absolute to anything else.

And I think it's pretty apparent that this country has existed because while we do have freedoms, we had a corresponding balance of responsibility, and that balance is way, way out of whack. We have forgotten responsibility, and I know that there are millions of gun owners who are not OK with this. They need to stand up. They need to kick down the door, and they need to say that the NRA does not speak for us.

CAMEROTA: Does the fact that so many performers have pulled out of the NRA conference this weekend and that Governor Greg Abbott is not going, is that significant?

BUSSE: Well, no, I think they're cowards. They're OK with the benefits of the NRA as long as things are fine and they can't take the heat when terrible things like this happen. So, I think that's pure cowardice. I think Greg Abbott should go down there and stand there and take what he needs to take because he has been doing the bidding for the NRA.

CAMEROTA: And the fact that he's not going, doesn't that show some embarrassment, mortification at this connection, at this association?

BUSSE: I think it's much worse than that. It shows to me that Greg Abbott knows how horrific this is, he doesn't have the guts to go down there and stand and take it, but he's still going to do the bidding for the NRA. He's not going down -- he didn't not go down there because he's going to apologize or make policy changes. He just doesn't have the guts to go down there and take the heat for what has happened.

CAMEROTA: One of the very perplexing things are the public polling on this. So, as we all know, a vast majority of Americans support increasing background checks for gun buyers. 89 percent support versus 8 percent who oppose. So, explain why politicians don't side with their constituents. Well, Republicans, I should say, don't side with their constituents and their voters on this issue?

BUSSE: Because the NRA has set up this false dichotomy. They tell NRA -- or they tell GOP elected officials that all gun owners stand together, that it's a monolith that will vote with the NRA. That the loud people with the mic control the room. And that's just a fallacy. It's so much like our national politics where you have the most loud bombastic people owning the mic and then we have an assumption that's the way the rest of the people are. It's really -- and much of this is on other gun owners that are responsible and decent and they know better than this. We have to stand up and knock the mic out of the hand of the NRA so that we stop sending these politicians the wrong message.

CAMEROTA: And what would that look like, Ryan?

BUSSE: Well, I think it means that -- and since I've written my book, decent responsible gun owners, thousands of them have called and written me and said, thank you for doing this. I'm a gun owner but I'm not one of those. So now is the time to do it.

[15:40:00]

Pick up the phone, call your elected officials. Tell them that you're a gun owner. Tell them that you appreciate the Second Amendment but that you don't believe a reasonable restrictions and norms and decency and responsibility, that's not infringement. That's just part of being a good citizen. We don't drive -- we all like the freedom to drive across town. But we don't get in our car and drive 90 miles an hour through a school zone. Why? Because live kids are a lot better than dead ones, and because we're responsible. And we don't say it's some infringement on our rights because we have to drive slower through the school zone. It's just what decent responsibility citizens do, and that's what we ought to be doing here.

CAMEROTA: Ryan Busse, thank you, we really appreciate your insights.

BUSSE: Thank you.

BLACKWELL: 21 families in Texas right now left with nothing but the grief and the trauma and so many questions. Well, next we'll speak with two people who've been there, family members of Columbine and Parkland victims.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: Sports teams across America are calling for action against gun violence. During last night's ball game, the New York Yankees and Tampa Bay Rays both tweeting dozens of statistics about the impacts of gun violence in America.

[15:45:03]

BLACKWELL: Each MLB team started the takeover by tweeting: The devastating events that took place in Uvalde, Buffalo and countless other communities across our nation are tragedies that are intolerable.

The Rays also announced the organization made a $50,000 commitment to Everytown for Gun Safety support fund.

Joining me are two people who have lost family members in mass shootings. Coni Sanders, her father Dave Sanders was killed in the Columbine shooting. And Manuel Oliver, his son Joaquin was killed in the Parkland shooting. He's also the cofounder of the nonprofit, Change the Ref. Thank you two, for being with me.

Coni, let me start with you. It's been 23 years since the Columbine shooting, and I watched an interview that you did where you talked about there were people who would come up to you and say, oh, this is where I was at the time, and I remember watching it on television. You were forced to relive it. These families in Uvalde, how does the infamy of a crime like this impact their ability to heal?

CONI SANDERS, DAUGHTER OF COLUMBINE SHOOTING VICTIM, DAVE SANDERS: It's very difficult because it's like grieving in a fish bowl. You know, Columbine happened 8,438 days ago, and we reexperience it frequently with these shootings happen, the numbness, the nausea. There's a sadly large community of people impacted by mass shootings, and we just welcomed new people to the club.

BLACKWELL: Manuel, I know you watched the news conference today from Texas Department of Public Safety, and the reluctance of these officers to go in, when I heard it, I immediately thought ahead to our conversation and the deputy at Stoneman Douglas who didn't act immediately, who was charged for not immediately going in to that building, going toward the gunshots. When you hear and see what you did today, what do you think? What do you feel?

MANUEL OLIVER, FATHER OF PARKLAND SHOOTING VICTIM, JOAQUIN "GUAC" OLIVER: Well, I think that the most convenient thing is to blame on any element, any element but the guns itself, and that's how these discussions start. It's a way to turn the narrative into another direction. I'm not justifying in any way, that was a big fault, and they should pay for that mistake. And there's no way to pay back our kids. But the fact that during all of that conference, no one mentioned, not even briefly, this this guy, legally, because of the law in his state, legally was able to purchase two AR-15s and more than 300 ammunitions, that concerns me more.

BLACKWELL: You know, let's talk about the law, then. You've probably heard that Mitch McConnell has given his blessing to one of his colleagues there in the conference to have some bipartisan talks about moving forward on gun safety legislation. Joe Manchin has said this time it feels different. But they said it felt different after Parkland. They said it felt different after Sandy Hook. Does it feel different, look different to you?

OLIVER: That's on us. You know, we have to make it different. They won't make a difference. They don't care about that. They have to say whatever is convenient at this point. They have to justify that something that is really impossible to justify. And they will try to sound nice and in a way that they're trying to solve the problem. I don't believe that. I'm not going to buy it anymore. It's on us to make the difference. And I'm telling you, I am willing to make this different than Parkland. I'm hoping that everyone that is watching me right now can get on board and become part of the solution. If you're expecting these guys to solve the problem, while you're watching TV in your living room, you're wrong, because you could be the next victim.

BLACKWELL: Coni, I see you nodding your head here, what are you thinking?

SANDERS: Yes, you know, there's so many flashbacks to, you know, 23 years ago, the NRA convention was happening in Colorado two weeks after the Columbine shootings, and they moved forward. You know, at this point, it doesn't matter what the people in power say, it's about what they do. And it's up to the people to make them do something different. And that's going to take the citizens, you know. We have a large, large number of people in our country who are fed up with this, and a lot of people that thought they were special like us. It was never going to happen to us. We were a normal family. And then, you know, mass shooting happens, and now we've got an entire country of people impacted by it and nobody's safe. Nobody is safe until we all ban together and do something about it.

[15:50:00]

BLACKWELL: Manuel, you know -- both of you know that there will come a moment when the cameras will leave, the hashtags will stop trending and the country in large part will move on. I've read a message that you have for the families in Uvalde about this moment and what you're hoping they can do in this moment. What is that?

OLIVER: I was saying that this is a moment where you have the global attention. So, this is a time to expose how you feel. Is it sad, is it mad? What are your emotions at this point? That applies also to us. Let me tell you, the cameras have been with us because we have done that. My wife Patricia, while some mothers are watching this and crying and hugging their kids, my wife Patricia is right now in front of the NRA convention in Texas. She lost her son five years ago, and she's today fighting for other sons and other daughters. That's the attitude. And I'm not only very honored to be her husband, but also the fact that she is representing my son in such a brave way. It's a role model for every woman out there.

BLACKWELL: Manuel Oliver, Coni Sanders, thank you so much for spending a couple minutes with me.

SANDERS: Thank you.

OLIVER: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: God bless them and the strength of their voice and what they still do. God bless them.

BLACKWELL: 23 years since Columbine.

CAMEROTA: I remember it. I mean, we all do.

BLACKWELL: You know, when you listen to the news conferences like we heard today, you wonder how much has changed. The protocols that were put in place for police were enacted after Columbine, and they didn't apply them.

CAMEROTA: But as Manuel just said, it all starts with the moment a gun shop owner decides to sell a weapon of war to a 18-year-old boy. That's the moment that it starts. But we don't talk about that moment as much as we talk about everything that goes wrong after that.

BLACKWELL: Fair point.

CAMEROTA: So, governor Abbott is about to give an update on the Uvalde school massacre and our breaking coverage continues.

[15:55:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLACKWELL: The jury hearing the Johnny Depp defamation case is now deliberating, and question whether his career suffered because of an op-ed his ex-wife wrote detailing the domestic abuse she's suffered despite never mentioning Depp by name.

CAMEROTA: So, in closing arguments today, Heard's attorney told jurors that Depp cannot prove he never once abused the actress. He added that a ruling in Depp's favor sends the message that no matter what you do as an abuse victim, you always have to do more. Then Depp's legal team argued that Heard was the abuser and called her testimony, quote, an act of profound cruelty.

BLACKWELL: Gas prices are painfully high this Memorial Day weekend, as the unofficial start of summer gets under way.

CAMEROTA: And yet, as CNN's Pete Muntean explains, millions are hitting the road anyway.

PETE MUNTEAN, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: I'm Pete Muntean in Washington. It is a busy start to Memorial Day weekend travel. The kickoff to the summer travel season even though drivers are facing very high gas prices. The national average for a gallon of regular now $4.60, according to AAA. When you adjust that for inflation, this is the highest gas price we have seen since Memorial Day 2012.

AAA says even still, about 34.9 million people are expected to drive 50 miles or more over the five-day Memorial Day travel period. Air fare is up 6 percent. Hotels are up 42 percent, it is not just gas. The roads are going to feel a lot more like 2019 pre-pandemic levels. Be patient and pad your wallet. This trip is going to cost you.

CAMEROTA: Pete Muntean, thank you.

BLACKWELL: "THE LEAD" with Jake Tapper starts after a short break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

END