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President Biden, First Lady Jill Biden Comfort Heartbroken Community Of Uvalde, Texas; Makeshift Memorial For 19 Students And Two Teachers Who Died In Uvalde; DOJ To Review Police Response To Uvalde School Massacre; How To Prevent More Mass Shootings; Remembering Ellie Garcia, Killed Days Before Her 10th Birthday; Aired 6-7p ET

Aired May 29, 2022 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[18:00:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRIANA RUIZ, MOTHER SHOOTING SURVIVOR DANIEL: He does have a lot of night terrors. He does scream and cry in his sleep.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What we need right now is action. Why are our gun laws so lax?

SEN. DICK DURBIN (D-IL): I can tell you I sense a different feeling among my colleagues after Uvalde.

REP. ADAM KINZINGER (R-IL): Why should somebody be able to buy a gun at 18? The problem is everybody is scared to inaction. And I've talked to a bunch that are where I am. They won't come out and say it.

SEN. BEN CARDIN (D-MD): There is a real urgency that we can show that we can act.

SEN. CORY BOOKER (D-NJ): Whatever we can get done, if it saves a life it's worth doing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: I'm Pamela Brown in Washington. You are live in the CNN NEWSROOM on this Sunday. And today an all too familiar ritual, the president and first lady trying to comfort a grieving community reeling from a mass shooting.

This is the town center of Uvalde, Texas. Now a growing memorial to the 19 children and their two teachers who were slaughtered inside their school. The first lady reaching out to the images of the innocent, smiling. Fourth graders who were murdered. The president caressing the face of one child's photo.

Just 12 days ago, Mr. And Mrs. Biden were in Buffalo, New York, to honor the 10 people murdered in a racist attack on a supermarket. And yesterday, Vice President Kamala Harris attended the funeral of Ruth Whitfield. She was the oldest victim of the attack and the last to be buried.

And across the country this weekend, there was an explosion of more gun violence.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Please, Governor Abbott, help Uvalde County. We need change.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: President Biden accompanied by the Republican governor of Texas also faced frustration from people demanding gun reforms. One man explains why he was heckling.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BERI GONZALES, UVALDE RESIDENT: At a certain point in time it's going to be on us because we vote these people in to represent us. And they're not representing us. And it's heartbreaking because things like this happen. Something needs to be done. Something. We need change. We need help, and my biggest fear is that nothing is going to change. And six months from now, Uvalde is just going to be Uvalde and it's just going to be history and nothing is going to be -- have changed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Our correspondents are covering all the angles for us tonight. Arlette Saenz is following the president's visit. Lucy Kafanov is focused on the community seeking to heal and Paula Reid has more on the Justice Department announcing a review of law enforcement's response to the attack.

Let's start with CNN's Arlette Saenz at Robb Elementary School.

Arlette, what did we hear from the president today?

ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Pamela, President Biden spent the day here on the ground in Uvalde, Texas, trying to offer some solace, some comfort to a community and families whose lives have been completely altered after five days ago. That gunman went into the elementary school here and killed 19 young children and two teachers.

The president and First Lady Jill Biden spent about three hours meeting privately with survivors and the families of those young victims. The president and the first lady also spent some time here on the scene at Robb Elementary School taking in the memorial site here, looking at the photos and the names of each of those fallen children and educators here.

But as the president grieved with the community, he also attended mass at Sacred Heart Catholic Church. He was also prompted by members of the community to the take stronger action. Both here at the elementary school and outside that church, there were demonstrators, members of the community, simply saying that the president needs to act. Watch that moment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We need help. Dr. Biden. President Biden.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We need help. We need mental health or something.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SAENZ: So you saw the president there mouthed the words, "we will." Of course there are so many questions about what kind of actions Congress or state legislators can take in the wake of this shooting. The president himself has acknowledged that he doesn't believe there's much more he can do personally via executive action on gun control. The White House says that Congress simply needs to act.

There are those preliminary early discussions among the bipartisan group of senators to see whether they can hash out some type of gun safety measures to come out of this attack. But there are so many people in the community that simply want answers about what can be done to prevent a tragedy like this from happening again. Now, at this moment, the president is making one final stop before he leaves Uvalde, Texas.

[18:05:04]

He is meeting with first responders and law enforcement officials privately. That is not going to be on camera in front of reporters. But the president also wanting to give thanks to those who responded in the wake of that horror that happened just five years ago in this very small, tight knit community of Uvalde, Texas.

BROWN: Well, this afternoon, CNN's Dana Bash had a heart-wrenching conversation with a mom and her 9-year-old son. Daniel Ruiz saw the gunman's face as he hid under a table and he also saw his classmate and teacher get shot before he escaped out the window. Horrifying images that may haunt him for life. Here is some of that conversation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

B. RUIZ: The first night he didn't really want to talk about it, obviously, which I mean was OK. I told him, you know, if you need to cry it out, you are scared, it's OK. He hasn't really stepped foot into his room since the incident. I am working on getting him, you know, counseling and therapy long term, because I know it's something that affects him. He does have a lot of night terrors. He does talking, screaming, crying in his sleep. And I'll ask him, do you remember, like, you know, what you were saying yesterday? And he'll be like, no, no.

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Daniel, you don't remember any of that?

DANIEL RUIZ, SHOOTING SURVIVOR: No.

(END VIDEO CLIP) BROWN: So sad. CNN's Lucy Kafanov joins us from the memorial at Uvalde's town square.

Lucy, so many families are suffering with trauma and heartbreak. How did the community respond to the visit from the president and governor?

LUCY KAFANOV, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Pamela, I think there is a lot less interest in what the politicians who are coming down to Uvalde have to say than there is in what they will go and what we as a nation will do in preventing another tragedy like this from happening. I want to show you a look at this make-shift memorial. We've seen people gathering here throughout the day, long lines of people coming here to pay their respects to the 19 students and two teachers who so tragically had their lives cut short.

Hundred degrees here. The weather is incredibly hot. And that has not stopped people from coming out here. And I want to show you over here, we have crosses with the names of the students and the two teachers. You see it says Irma Garcia, Eva Morales, the two teachers of that 4th grade classroom who died protecting their students. It is going to take weeks, years, possibly a lifetime for the people here to process what happened, to process this tragedy to come to grips with the reality of 19 10-year-olds, 9, 10 and 11-year-olds losing their lives.

A lot of the people who have come here to pay their respects are no older than some of those students. We've seen a lot of tears. A lot of stuffed animals, candles left. There are also crosses surrounding this fountain. We are in front of a church here so you might here some of the church music behind me. And the crosses have the photos of each of the victims. People again paying their respects, writing signs. One of the signs that we saw says "choose hope over fear." And that is one message that folks here are taking away -- Pamela.

BROWN: All right, Lucy Kafanov, Arlette Saenz in Uvalde, Texas, thank you both.

And we are also learning that the Justice Department will conduct a formal review of what many are calling the delayed police response to the shooting.

CNN's Paula Reid joins me now. So, Paula, explain how this works and why the Justice Department is taking this step now.

PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Pam, this is an incredibly significant development because as we have seen Texas officials have been under some serious scrutiny for how law enforcement officials responded to the shooting and these conflicting timelines that they've put out in the wake of this event.

Now this review was actually requested by the city's mayor. And in a statement, the Justice Department said the goal of this review is to provide an independent account of law enforcement actions and responses that day and to identify lessons learned and the best practices to help first responders prepare for and respond to active shooter events. At this point the Justice Department is really the only entity that

can credibly and objectively come in and really analyze exactly what happened here. Now this review will be conducted by the Justice Department's Office of Community Oriented Policing. They have conducted similar reviews, Pam, into the terrorist attacks in San Bernardino and how law enforcement responded there as well as how law enforcement responded to the Pulse Nightclub shooting.

Now reviewed both of those after-action reports. And the way this will work is these investigators, they're going to go to the scene. They're going to talk to witnesses. They're going to try to talk to first responders.

[18:10:01]

They're going to talk to members of the community and gather any audio or visual evidence that they can and try to analyze exactly what happened here. And then distill it down into things that went right but more likely in this case all the things that went wrong. And as pretty clear from our reporting and that of our colleagues this week, there's a lot of lessons that can be learned here.

BROWN: Absolutely. And could there be criminal charges as a result of this review?

REID: It's a great question, but this here, this is not a criminal investigation. The Justice Department is of course the nation's top law enforcement agency. And here it's really more of a way to support law enforcement going forward to look at this incident, to analyze it, and to distill it down into best practices, lessons learned.

It is, of course, a very high bar to ever charge a law enforcement official in the course of their duty. But once you have investigators, you start turning over rocks, talking to people, gathering evidence. If they do collect anything that suggests possible criminality, it is likely something that they would hand off to prosecutors. But there is so much we just don't know at this point.

Now this is also different than the civil rights investigations that the Justice Department has conducted into police departments, for example, in Chicago or Ferguson. They're not looking to take over this police department. They want to look at the response to this particular incident and at this point again this is not a criminal investigation. It is a very high bar to ever charge a law enforcement official.

But as a recovering attorney, Pam, I can tell you that any lawyer who is bringing any sort of civil action related to this incident will be very interested in this final report from the Justice Department.

BROWN: Oh, sure. And once an attorney, always an attorney at the end of the day, Paula. Thanks so much.

Well, right now, this is a country in crisis, mass shootings are on the rise, so how do we break the cycle of violence? We're going to talk about it, up next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:16:00]

BROWN: How can we prevent more mass shootings? That is the key question right now. The number in the United States is rising dramatically. In 2016, there were 382 mass shootings, according to the Independent Data and Research Group Gun Violence Archive. In 2020, the number was 610. In 2021, it was 692. In 2022, it is already 214.

Meanwhile, a number of states, including Texas, have made their gun laws more lenient from allowing people to carry guns on college campuses to places of worship. Just last year, Texas made it illegal for anyone to carry a handgun in public without a permit or training. Governor Greg Abbott said that law instilled freedom in the Lone Star State. That is his quote. Speaking in Uvalde Wednesday, Abbott says stronger gun laws wouldn't mean fewer shootings.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. GREG ABBOTT (R), TEXAS: I hate to say this, but there are more people who were shot every weekend in Chicago than there are in schools in Texas. People who think that, well, maybe if we can just implement tougher gun laws, it's going to solve it. Chicago and L.A. and New York disproved that thesis.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: But in mass shooting after mass shooting, guns were purchased legally. You're looking at least a list of 15 cases where the gunman had the right to buy the firearms used to slaughter people based on the laws on the books. From Uvalde to El Paso, from Parkland to Las Vegas and Orlando. And some lawmakers are once again calling for change.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I will say this as I've said countless times, we are not sitting around waiting to figure out what the solution looks like. You know, we're not looking for a vaccine. We know what works on this. It includes let's have an assault weapons ban.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: In fact, more Americans say they support tighter gun laws. 87 percent support restrictions for mental illness. 81 percent are for background checks on private gun sales. 66 percent are in favor of a federal database to track sales, and 63 percent say they support a ban on assault-style weapons all according to a Pew Research poll.

Now with all that public support, there must be some gun laws that can be passed, one would think. Here's a list of possible ways to prevent mass shootings from the group Every Town for Gun Safety. Prohibit people with dangerous histories from having guns. Background checks on all gun sales, prohibit assault rifles, prohibit high-capacity magazines.

So let's bring in our guest, Richard Feldman, a former NRA lobbyist who is now president of the Independent Firearms Owners Association, and Jonathan Wackrow, a CNN law enforcement analyst and former Secret Service agent.

Great to see you both. Richard, I want to start with you before we get delved into the nitty-gritty of both of your thoughts on how to prevent future shootings. I want to start with this new tweet from the NRA. It posted pictures from their convention as you can see on your screens of members with their guns, saying this is what freedom looks like. They posted this as 19 parents are getting ready to bury their children, and families of these two teachers.

What do you say to those people who say, well, what about the freedom to go to school? Or go to church? Or go to the grocery store without being shot? What do you say?

RICHARD FELDMAN, FORMER NRA LOBBYIST: I say that the NRA is a political organization and the answer doesn't lie in politics. The answer lies in good policy, and we need to have a thoughtful, mature, calm analysis of the problem in order to come up with not just do something, but do something relevant to the problem.

[18:20:08]

We have history behind us in this country of setting up task forces by the governor that really look at this information, whether it's Secret Service and FBI, and ATF, criminologists, psychiatrists, and come up with some ideas because both of the last shooters underwent background checks. We missed the opportunity to stop both of them.

We can do a better job in this country and we already have so much of the data in social media, but we haven't incentivize social media to do it, and we had a task force to look at it, not to delay but rather to do something intelligent and move forward correctly in this country. We can do that.

BROWN: All right. I want to bring you in, Jonathan, because my colleague Jim Acosta just earlier today spoke to an NRA board member. Here's one moment from that interview I want to play.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JIM ACOSTA, CNN ANCHOR: How is it that an 18-year-old can buy an AR-15 style rifle and have 1600 rounds of ammo with him like we saw in Uvalde?

JUDGE PHILLIP JOURNEY, NRA BOARD MEMBER: Well, he did not have any prior convictions. He didn't have any prior issues that would have kept him from purchasing one. It's my understanding from the news that he purchased it through a firearms dealer, he passed the background check because he didn't have any prior convictions.

ACOSTA: Right, but should an 18-year-old have an AR-15?

JOURNEY: That's how he bought it.

ACOSTA: Should an 18-year-old have an AR-15? What's he going to do with it, go duck hunting?

JOURNEY: I don't know. Should an 18-year-old have one in the army?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: So to be clear, the military go through extensive training. You're subject to strict regulations, rather, a big difference there. The military's version also as we know is called M-16. But the question remains, should an 18-year-old having access to these sorts of weapons? What do you think, Jonathan?

JONATHAN WACKROW, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Listen, you know, Pam, it's beyond the 18-year-old. Right? It's people who have, you know, issues, should they be able to get weapons? Right. 214 mass shootings this year is a staggering number. And God only knows where we're going to be at the end of the year. We look at these violent attacks that are perpetrated by individuals from varying backgrounds and have varying motivations, we understand that the common denominator of this is the gun.

But listen, due to the political paralysis around the gun issue right now, are we really going to move the needle by saying, hey, we're going to restrict this, restrict that. We have to have those discussions and hopefully we have a bipartisan approach to dealing with, you know, smart gun laws. But we have to look at other ways to deal with mass shootings and prevent it now. We actually have to start to begin addressing this issue with a whole of community approach.

Not just a single-issue approach. But a whole of community, where we actually look at how do we prevent the violent outcome from occurring? And this has to do with, you know, interactions with law enforcement. Community and civic leaders. Politicians, policy makers, educators, all coming together to look at, you know, behavioral factors. Not mental health factors, behavioral factors, and inject early intervention into those individuals who are most at risk, so they don't engage in violent acts.

Oftentimes, those violent acts are with guns. So we know that and we have to prevent that access. So prevent the most violent individuals from getting these weapons is what we need to do and it takes a whole of community approach to do that.

BROWN: A whole of community approach and as you point out, someone who should not have access to a gun, but having access to that gun can be a toxic combination as we just saw in Uvalde. Yet, I was listening to Texas Governor Greg Abbott's press conference. And he said Friday that mental healthcare is key, not expanding background checks. Let's listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ABBOTT: Anyone who suggests well, maybe we should focus on background checks as opposed to mental health, I suggest to you is mistaken. If there is anybody here who thinks we have perfect healthcare in this country, in this world, they're wrong. Is there anybody that thinks we can't do more to address mental healthcare? They're wrong.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: But, Richard, certainly, we can improve mental healthcare and do more in the background check. Why not do both? What do you think?

FELDMAN: Well, I think that's exactly right. I join with Jonathan and so does the Independent Firearms Association, that it's not just one bumper sticker slogan or another. We have to take a very intelligent, responsible approach to what's a very complicated problem if we expect to have real solutions.

[18:25:02]

BROWN: Well, you heard Kamala Harris today -- go ahead. Yes.

WACKROW: Pam, I just want to jump in here because I want to make sure that we -- you know, that the viewer understands. There is a difference between behavioral health issues and mental health issues. Behavior health issues I think of what my co-panel and myself were actually talking about, Richard, the cognitive habits that affect someone's overall well-being. Their emotion, biology, their behavior.

Mental health is something different. Those are biological factors that influence mental state. You know, I think that, you know, addressing things like violent acts to individuals who are diagnosed with mental health, you know, problems. That is actually incorrect.

BROWN: I agree with -- yes. A hundred percent.

WACKROW: What we're really focusing on here are those behavioral issues.

BROWN: Yes. I mean, because, look. I've talked about my mental. I mean, I have anxiety, right. I've talked about that. It doesn't mean I'm going to do anything, like be violent at all, right. I mean, the majority of people with mental health issues do not go out and commit acts of violence. So I think that's a really important point. I'm glad you jumped in to make that.

We heard Kamala Harris talk about the assault weapons ban. She came out over the weekend when she was in Buffalo saying it should be reinstated. As you well know, it was in the '90s. Why not ban them again, Richard? What do you say to Kamala Harris, the vice president?

FELDMAN: Oh, I say that she is looking for a simple solution and if she vilifies America's gun owners, nothing useful is going to happen. And we can do things and we can move the needle, but not if we're going to take the approach that getting rid of a certain class of gun is going to solve the problem because it just isn't going to happen.

BROWN: OK. I do want to note, though, that when the federal ban on assault-style rifles was in effect, mass shooting deaths fell on the decade of the ban and then rose dramatically in the decade following its expiration. This is according to "Journal of Trauma and Acute Care Surgery." But I see what you're saying, Richard, that there's just not the political landscape right now for that to happen.

But let me just quickly go to you for final thoughts here, Jonathan. You know, when I hear Governor Abbott and others say, well, these laws wouldn't have prevented these shootings, right? That, you know, the gunman in Uvalde was able to legally obtain, he passed a background check. He was able to legally obtain the gun. I guess my question is, so does that mean we shouldn't have any laws in the books that can cut down on violence?

This is really, you know, it's sort of this argument about all or nothing. Well, since it won't eliminate all of it, then we shouldn't maybe do it. But you're former law enforcement. I mean, laws can help even if it doesn't eliminate the problem. Right? There's homicide laws on the book. We still see homicide. Right? It doesn't eliminate all of them but it cuts it down.

WACKROW: Pam, you have to do something. Right? It's not going to be a -- you know, a single solution that is the instantaneous cure-all. There's not going to be one single law that you can apply to stop mass shootings or, you know, violent attacks. It's just not going to happen. But you have to undertake that process. Right? Because if it saves one life why wouldn't you do it?

BROWN: Exactly.

WACKROW: Right? If it protects the Second Amendment --

BROWN: If these -- exactly.

WACKROW: You know, if it still protects Second Amendment privileges to, you know, the constitutional right to bear arms, but prevents those who have violent tendencies, behavioral problems from obtaining weapons, then why wouldn't we do it? That should be a bipartisan approach. That's smart gun regulation. And we have to actually start thinking in terms of the benefits to this, not the restrictiveness of any type of gun regulation.

BROWN: I think that's really important, reframing the conversation, and like to benefit for law-abiding gun owners, right, that they will still have the right to bear arms under the Second Amendment. But as Justice Scalia said in the Heather Supreme Court case, the Second Amendment does have limits. It is not limitless is what he said and there should be smart regulations so that 19 children and two teachers aren't gunned down, slaughtered by an 18-year-old who just brought two AR-15s in their classroom. We can all agree on that.

Great conversation. Richard Feldman, Jonathan Wackrow, really appreciate your time tonight. Thank you.

FELDMAN: Thank you.

BROWN: Well, you're in the CNN NEWSROOM tonight. And new tonight, legal trouble for the husband of House Speaker Nancy Pelosi. What we know about the DUI charges he's facing. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:34:04]

BROWN: House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's husband has been arrested and charged with DUI in California. A public booking report in Napa County says 82-year-old Paul Pelosi was driving last night with a blood alcohol content of .08 percent or higher. He was released this morning. A spokesman said the speaker will not be commenting and CNN has reached out to the Napa County sheriff's office for more details.

Well, the Justice Department says it will review the police response to the Uvalde school shooting. The gunman was inside the school for 78 minutes before police confronted him. And in that time he managed to shoot and kill 21 people. A state lawmaker described how the mistakes cost lives.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROLAND GUTIERREZ (D), TEXAS STATE SENATE: I sat down with the family yesterday. A mom told me that her child had been shot by one bullet through the back through the kidney area.

[18:35:01]

The first responder that they eventually talked to said that their child likely bled out. In that span of 30 or 40 minutes extra, that little girl might have lived. That little girl might have lived. So absolutely, these mistakes may have led to the passing away of these children as well.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: It's just unbearable to even think about that. Joining us now, Texas criminal defense attorney Brian Wice.

Hi, Brian, good to see you. So I want to start with your reaction to this news that the Justice Department will be reviewing the police response at Uvalde. How significant is this development. What do you expect to come from it?

BRIAN WICE, CRIMINAL DEFENSE LAWYER: Well, first of all, Pamela, any time DOJ decides to weigh in on anything in the criminal justice system, I think it's a big deal. I think with their resources, manpower, and track record, whatever they can do to move the needle so that when we find ourselves in an incomprehensible situation that we found ourselves in last Tuesday, that maybe, just perhaps, those first responders facing evil will be able to do it in a manner wholly, separate and apart from the amateur hour that we saw in Uvalde last Tuesday.

BROWN: So is there a scenario where one of these officers might actually be charged with a crime?

WICE: You know, I'm going to reserve judgment until all the facts are in. But I've learned this much in my four decades in the criminal justice system, Pamela, is that being a peace officer is the ultimate home field advantage in the criminal justice system. And particularly in a red state like Texas and a red county like Uvalde, it's even more pronounced.

I think two things, though, stand out. Number one, Steve McCaw, the colonel of the Department of Public Safety, our state police, called out -- I'll say it again, called out Chief Peter Arredondo in a manner that I've seen few cops call out fellow cops saying this just wasn't wrong, it was wrong from here to there.

Number two, even though there is a natural reluctance on the part of most prosecutors to second guess cops, particularly in a situation like this, where it wasn't conduct but an omission, make no mistake, in Texas, you can be prosecuted for an omission if you have a legal duty to act. These officers had a legal duty to prevent the commission of that crime by using whatever reasonable force was necessary.

BROWN: But, I mean, then how does the Supreme Court decision come into this that says that they're not legally bound by the duty to serve and protect? Do you know how that factors in?

WICE: I really think that's more a function, Pamela, of civil suits. And the context of the ever-present civil liability that while on one level we really think matters, but by and large these officers in the county will have what we call sovereign immunity, which is you can't sue the king going all the way back to the time of the renaissance, if you will.

This is a situation where whether or not this incompetence and what we've seen on social media, some would say cowardice crosses the line into criminality. And make no mistake, crossing that line is a prosecutor, particularly in Texas in Uvalde County is going to be a heavy lift.

BROWN: Do you think that it makes any difference in terms of potential accountability here. And again, I know we're waiting for the full report to go out. But based on what the Texas officials said there was more than an hour where they stood outside in the hallway, these at least 19 officers, and didn't go in until the Border Patrol tactical team got there. That versus having to make a split-second decision. I mean, they had more than an hour to contemplate standing in that hallway.

WICE: And that's an excellent point, Pamela. Look, this is not a situation where an officer shoots a suspect thinking it was a taser. This is a situation where for those agonizing minutes nothing of substance happened. I was on the phone today with a senior ranger who actually made the scene and was there for 14 hours, who said, look, in the 22 years since Columbine, law enforcement knows in dealing with an active shooter, there is one play to make.

And that is to attract fire, even if it means you take the slug and take the shooter out asap. That didn't happen in this case. And again it's going to be up to the Uvalde County district attorney to determine whether or not that seeming gross incompetence, while those babies were bleeding out, crosses that line into criminality. BROWN: It's just -- it's so hard. It's just so hard to absorb this and

to wrap our head around it several days in, I still feel that way.

Brian Wice, thank you for helping us better understand the legal aspect here. We appreciate it.

Well, you are in the CNN NEWSROOM. Coming up a Uvalde victim's uncle describes the worst day of his life.

[18:40:04]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ADRIAN ALONZO, NIECE ELLIE GARCIA KILLED IN SCHOOL SHOOTING: School officials told me that there's no more children here. They've all been picked up. And then that school official to see it in her eyes, her eyes became glassy and teary, it's just so, sir, they'll make a statement soon.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: As the debate over guns in America intensifies, we never want to forget the victims. Well, this morning, CNN's Dana Bash spoke to the uncle of Ellie Garcia. She would have turned 10 next Saturday.

[18:45:09]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALONZO: Ellie was a beautiful little girl. She is filled with so much joy, so much life, so much -- she had a good heart. She was never angry at anyone. She loved everyone. She was just such a good kid. Her birthday is next Saturday, on the 4th. Yes. She would have been 10. She still would be 10.

BASH: That's so tough.

ALONZO: It is very hard. I imagine that weekend will be a tough weekend for the family because her birthday is on the 4th and two days later on the 6th we will bury her.

School official told me that there's no more children here. They've all been picked up. Do you have a list? Do you have a list of the students that were here? Can you check if her name is on there? And then that school official I could see it in her eyes. Her eyes became glassy and teary. And she said, sir, they'll make a statement soon. My wife called me, they found her. She didn't make it.

BASH: I'm so sorry.

ALONZO: It's by far the worst day of my life and I'll never forget that day. I hold no hatred towards him. I hold no hatred towards the law enforcement. Yes, there may be some errors that were made. I am filled with anger, but I feel no hatred towards him. We were thankful to have Ellie for the nine years of her life with us. We will never forget her. She will always be a part of this family. Even in her death.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: And we have live picture of the memorial site where countless mourners, including the president and first lady have placed flowers in honor of the victims. A really powerful image. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:51:49]

BROWN: This weekend on the all-new CNN Original Series "NOMAD" with Carlton Mccoy. It's a holiday double episode. First, Carlton takes us to Toronto.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARLTON MCCOY, HOST, "NOMAD": You're in my town.

And finally, a hidden gem for an unlikely dinner. Le Spot, a proven ground for Toronto's best pool sharks. It's owned by Marco Lu. And it's famous locally for its amazing fried rice and crispy wings with Guyanese hot sauce.

MARCO LU, OWNER: You want hot sauce? How many hot sauce do you want? Hold on one second. Hey, guys.

MCCOY: How good of a pool player do you need to be to own a pool hall?

LU: It depends. Do you want to see the $5 game or the $20 game?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Then the renowned chef, master sommelier and expert traveler takes us to the Mississippi Delta. And I talked to Carlton about both trips including what people don't appreciate in his view about Toronto.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCCOY: I have been very fortunate to eat my way around the world. You know, Toronto is probably the most exciting ethnic food scene of any city I have been to. And I think what makes it so exciting is that the food has not been adopted to sort of appease locals. Right. A lot of the restaurants there are serving the native dishes in their purest form. Right. So there isn't like a Tex-Mex version of the food there.

It's very much the way you eat it in their home countries. And part of that is because you have so many immigrants there. You know, Toronto is an immigrant city. That people are not only they open to, is they really want to build a culture where people are respectful of how different people's cultures are.

BROWN: And we're actually going to wrap up the first season of "NOMAD" with two back-to-back episodes tonight. Tell us a little bit about what viewers will see in the second episode, on the Mississippi River Delta.

MCCOY: Mississippi looks like a lot of places in the south. Had really been overlooked. You know, I can think of very few people that I have spoken to who've said, hey, you know, I'm going to go to Mississippi. And you know, I was really honored to live there for about six months when I was in college.

And I just thought the place was beautiful and you know we wanted to create a narrative where we could simultaneously, you know, be pretty opened about a lot of historical issues that are still there, that have not been resolved, that have been swept under the rug while still celebrating the culture in Mississippi, and just how beautiful the state in and of itself.

You know, there are shellfishes there, just like there are anywhere else in the country. But that doesn't mean that we can't, you know, embrace how beautiful especially the food and music culture are down there. And there's a lot to celebrate.

BROWN: All right. Looking forward to it. Carlton McCoy, thank you so much.

And the special double episode "NOMAD" with Carlton McCoy starts tonight at 9:00 Eastern right here on CNN.

[18:55:04]

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BROWN: I'm Pamela Brown in Washington. You are live in the CNN NEWSROOM on this Sunday. And today, Uvalde, Texas, a ritual that has become all too familiar. The president and first lady trying to comfort a grieving community reeling from the horrors of a mass shooting.

This is the town center of Uvalde, Texas. It is now a growing memorial to the 19 children and their two teachers murdered.