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Gun Control Debate; Uvalde Massacre Investigation Continues; President Biden Delivers Memorial Day Address. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired May 30, 2022 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:58]

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: Hello, everyone, I'm Alisyn Camerota. Welcome to CNN NEWSROOM.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: I'm Victor Blackwell.

CAMEROTA: For the first time, we are hearing what appears to be dispatch audio about a child trapped in the middle of the massacre in Uvalde, Texas.

CNN has not been able to confirm this audio clip. It was first reported by ABC News.

BLACKWELL: Now, it's unclear when during the attack this specific message was relayed, but, according to the Texas public safety director, there were at least eight 911 calls from at least two callers inside Robb Elementary.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

911 OPERATOR: Advise, we do have a child on the line. Child is advising he in the room full of victims, full of victims at this moment.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: At least 19 officers were just on the other side of the door of that classroom where the student was calling from.

Texas public safety officials reported the first call from a child came at 12:03 p.m. Not until 12:50 -- that's 47 minutes later -- would officers finally break in and kill the gunman.

So the Justice Department will now investigate the local law enforcement response.

BLACKWELL: One critic called it one of the worst police failures in modern U.S. history.

In the meantime, Democrats are trying to seize whatever momentum there is on Capitol Hill for gun reform.

Here's President Biden today. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And, remember, the Constitution, the Second Amendment was never absolute. You couldn't buy a cannon when the Second Amendment was passed. You couldn't go out and purchase a lot of weapons.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: CNN's Adrienne Broaddus us is in Uvalde, where the first funeral services are happening today.

Adrienne, 21 funerals, it's going to be another gut-wrenching couple of weeks for that city.

ADRIENNE BROADDUS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Indeed, Victor.

This is a day of remembrance here, but it's also a reminder of the new reality for many of these families, life without their children. One mother described her daughter as her best friend and her heartbeat. And it's the rhythm of the community here that keeps these parents going, pushing them forward, as visitation is under way right now.

Let's tell you a little bit about two of the 19 children who were killed.

First, I want to start with Amerie Jo Garza. Her father and family says she had a heart of gold and she always was trying to protect her younger brother. And now her family knows she died trying to save her classmates by using a cell phone she got two weeks ago for her 10th birthday to call 911. Her family says their sweet, loving, sassy and funny little diva hated wearing dresses, but she wore them.

And the photo that's paired with her obituary shows her wearing this beautiful violet dress. Right now, you're looking at images that were uploaded by the funeral home as these children are remembered.

Amerie's family also said she loved eating at Chick-fil-A and her favorite drink was the vanilla bean Frappuccino from Starbucks.

Parents, no coffee in that drink. It's almost like a milkshake. And she's not alone. Her classmate Maite had a favorite drink from Starbucks. Her mom said, before her daughter entered the first grade, she already knew what she wanted to be when she became an adult, a marine biologist. She loves animals and studying wildlife. And she was ambitious.

She was already thinking about college. She was A and B honor roll student whose favorite color was green. Whenever they would go to Whataburger here in town, she says her daughter wanted number 13 off the menu . And she would shout: "Hey, mom, don't forget the jalapenos on the side." She loved jalapenos too.

And she was also not only ambitious, but there was a way about her, from what we're learning. She learned how to sew on her own, thanks to YouTube university -- Victor and Alisyn. CAMEROTA: Adrienne, every one of these kids' stories, every one of these kids sounds like an angel, sounds special.

[14:05:05]

All of these pictures capture their spirit. And they're gone.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

And those little details, I mean, the favorite food, the favorite color, really reinforces what was stolen from them. Other bios say they had children. This was their career, taken so early. This is all that their parents had.

CAMEROTA: Yes, they could be any of our kids.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

CAMEROTA: They sound familiar on so many levels.

Adrienne Broaddus, thank you for all of that.

Let's go now to CNN's Evan Perez for more on the Justice Department review of the police in Uvalde.

So, what will this investigation look like, Evan?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Alisyn, this is going to be a very thorough review of exactly what happened that day during the shooting.

That includes looking at the police tactics, looking at the 911 calls, listening to police transmissions to get a fuller picture of exactly what happened. Why were they -- were there these delays that we have now heard from Texas law enforcement happened that day?

The Justice Department does these things from time to time. The more recent one -- most recent one that we know of is looking into the Pulse nightclub shooting in Orlando 20 -- after the 2016 shooting. And, in that case, they tried to reach out to some victims, to some of the survivors.

We don't know whether they will be able to do that in this instance. I will read you just a part of what the Justice Department says their goal here is.

They say: "The goal of this review is to provide independent -- an independent account of law enforcement actions and responses that day, and to identify lessons learned and best practices to help first responders prepare for and respond to active shooter incidents."

We know that, at least from some of the experts who've looked at this shooting, Victor and Alisyn, that it doesn't seem to go by what everyone says is the best practice, which is to go in there as soon as possible. So, the question is, why were those decisions made? And so we expect

that these outside experts that the Justice Department is going to bring in will at least tell law enforcement going forward how to do these things better -- Victor and Alisyn.

BLACKWELL: Evan Perez for us there.

Evan, thank you so much.

Let's bring in now former FBI Assistant Director Chris Swecker and former Boston Police Commissioner Ed Davis.

Gentlemen, welcome back.

Chris, let me start with you with the practical implications of this review. We have learned from Evan what it will look like. What then will this offer to not just this department, but other departments moving forward, as we will likely see another active shooting situation?

CHRIS SWECKER, FORMER FBI ASSISTANT DIRECTOR: Yes, this is like the Pulse nightclub after-action review that the Justice Department did.

They have an office called the Community Oriented Policing Office, the COPS office, that provides this type of technical assistance. But let me point out, this is one of, I think, four independent investigations that are under review right now.

One is, there may be a criminal investigation, because this was a shooting. It involved Border Patrol. It may -- there may or may not have been assistance that maybe the gun -- the gun shop that sold the guns and that sort of thing. So I think there may be a criminal investigation.

I think there is a Border Patrol shooting review that's going on, because that's a federal agency and they had officers involved. So there's a shooting review there, and this DOJ independent review that's going on, and then they the DPS review, the Department of Public Safety in Texas.

So I think there's four things going on at one time. The DOJ review is what I will just call an after-action report for future use and reference. It really doesn't have a lot of impact on charging or civil actions and that sort of thing.

CAMEROTA: Commissioner, I'm glad that Chris just brought up the gun shop owner that sold the gun.

So is there nothing better that gun shop owners can do in terms of screening out psychopaths? Because there are, it turns out in these school shootings, always red flags, we find out afterwards. We find out that these troubled 18-year-olds are shooting off signals to their friends or family.

Doesn't the gun shop owner who sold this bear some responsibility?

ED DAVIS, FORMER BOSTON POLICE COMMISSIONER: Well, Alisyn, from an ethical perspective, absolutely.

If someone is selling 1,000 rounds of ammunition to an 18-year-old who's just become of age to purchase a gun, you would think that they would have questions. What are you doing with this? What -- make some phone calls. Reach out to the police to see if something can be checked into.

This is not -- this is not normal behavior. And if you're in the business of selling this type of a substance, just as if you're -- you run a -- you sell -- you're selling alcohol at a store, and someone comes in intoxicated, you have a responsibility to do something about that to protect society.

[14:10:09]

So I think you have to look closely at what they did. There's probably not a violation of law. But from an ethical perspective, how can you live with yourself after you do something like this? It's unimaginable.

BLACKWELL: Chris, we have not heard from the Uvalde Police Department, from Texas authorities any paid leave of absence, any termination for the person, the incident commander on scene who made the call not to go in.

Would you have expected that by now? Or is that potentially on the other side of any one of these four investigations that you're talking about?

SWECKER: I would have expected it by now, at least the Independent School District chief, maybe a suspension pending the shooting review and the investigation itself.

I'm confused a little bit about why the Uvalde Police Department didn't come in and take over. I understand this was a -- this was a school under the jurisdiction of the ISD. But the city police have jurisdiction throughout their -- throughout the city limits.

So I don't know how it was decided that the ISD police chief was holding the bag here, when the city police chief had more resources and more response capability. But I guess that will all get sorted out.

But going back to Chief Davis' point there about the gun owner, I mean, the gun seller, there's -- you don't have to sell guns to anyone. An 18-year-old that shows up has no criminal record that on their birthday. They have a juvenile record, which nobody can see. So they're inherently capable of buying guns at 18 because there's no way to have a criminal record.

So, to my way of thinking, I think that there is some responsibility on the person selling the guns from a gun store, selling it to an 18- year-old, to ask them questions, as the chief says.

CAMEROTA: I'm so glad you brought that up, because I really think that, yes, obviously grave mistakes were made by the commanding officer on the scene. And there are investigations, and we will figure all of that out.

But none of that would have happened if, at the point of purchase, this had been stopped. There was a way to stop this before that gunman got to the scene. And so -- but, Commissioner, back to what happened at the scene.

So the commanding officer made a huge mistake. I think that everybody -- the police admit that. What about the other officers? What about the dozens of other officers? Are you surprised that none of them broke with command, that none of them went in, when this is established doctrine?

DAVIS: I am surprised.

And you -- we're going to have to study this to find out what was in their mind, what kind of communication they had, who was stepping in and who wasn't stepping in, as Chris said, the importance of the police, the local police department, stepping up or the Department of Public Safety stepping up.

But, Alisyn, you bring up a good point. The politicians have set up this raging wildfire of violence that's occurring. And now everyone's trying to blame the firefighters that are going in to try to stop it.

I think that we just have to look at everything that's going on here. Clearly, the police made mistakes. It was the darkest day, in my knowledge, in the history of a police -- of policing profession.

But it's also an untenable situation to say to people, we want you to run into this live fire situation. Yes, you might get killed, but you have to do it to take care of the kids.

We have all -- we have all agreed to do that. Everybody that I -- I know 100 cops that would have raced in there, despite the fact that would have been killed. But what about the political structure that has allowed this to happen, with their cute little sayings about guns don't kill people?

We have got to work on both sides of this equation, the mental health side and the gun side, to save lives.

CAMEROTA: Gentlemen, we appreciate you.

Chris Swecker, Ed Davis, thank you both.

Two-point-seven million dollars have been raised for the children of one of the teachers killed in the Uvalde school shootings. Donations have been pouring in to this GoFundMe campaign for the family of that beloved teacher Irma Garcia.

BLACKWELL: Her husband of 23 years, Joe, died of a heart attack two days later.

And the cousin organizing the fund-raiser writes: "I truly believe Joe died of a broken heart, and losing the love of his life of more than 25 years was too much to bear." The Garcias were high school sweethearts. They leave behind four children.

For more on how you can help families of the victims at Robb Elementary, just go to CNN.com/Impact.

CAMEROTA: So, President Biden cannot act on gun reform alone. He does need Congress. Is there any reason to think this time will be different?

BLACKWELL: And here's a look at the Iwo Jima Memorial in Arlington.

Up next, we will show you other tributes for fallen service members on this Memorial Day.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:19:29]

CAMEROTA: Today, Americans pay tribute to the brave men and women who gave their lives in service to this nation.

President Biden, Vice President Kamala Harris and Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin attending a ceremony at Arlington National Cemetery.

BLACKWELL: The president laid a wreath at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier there.

Let's go now to CNN White House correspondent M.J. Lee.

M.J., I understand Gold Star families are with the president and the first lady at the White House this afternoon.

M.J. LEE, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: That's right.

This day, Memorial Day, is such an important day for U.S. presidents. We see them in their role as commander in chief commemorate and celebrate the lives of those lost, those who served for the country, and also console and show gratitude to the family members of those service members.

[14:20:12]

And you take a look at the president's schedule today. And it is really all about this commemoration. He began his day, President Biden, with a Memorial Day breakfast.Then we saw him travel over to Arlington National Cemetery, where he delivered a speech.

And just now at the White House, he held a tree planting ceremony with Gold Star families, hosting them here for a separate event as well. And when we heard the president speaking earlier today, it was both about consoling those families who have lost loved ones who served in the U.S. military, but then he also talked about the meaning of democracy and freedom.

Here he is. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: And as hard as it is for many to believe, especially those whose loss is still raw, I promise you the day will come when the memory of your loved one, your patriot, will bring a smile to your lip before it brings a tear to your eye.

That's when you know you're going to make it.

Freedom is worth the sacrifice. Democracy is not perfect. It's never been good -- perfect. But it's worth fighting for, if necessary, worth dying for.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEE: Now, while this is a solemn day for the country, it's also just worth noting that it is an important and a challenging day for President Biden and his family.

Today marks seven years since the death of his son Beau Biden. Of course, he served in the Iraq War and then died of brain cancer. So, when the president was talking earlier at Arlington National Cemetery, he said that experience of grieving for his son Beau, that helps him sort of understand what these Gold Star families are going through, and that he hopes that they can find some solace in knowing that they lived a life of purpose and honor.

And I do believe we are showing images of just a few -- from just a few moments ago of that tree planting ceremony. Again, Gold Star families are at the White House for that event.

CAMEROTA: And then, M.J., of course, at the same time this is happening, there are 21 families in Uvalde who are grieving because of the massacre at Robb Elementary School. They're making funeral preparations.

So President Biden said today that he's hopeful that there would be some movement forward on gun safety in Congress. Is this a reality?

LEE: Yes, it's 21 families that are grieving, but also so many more in that community and others across the country.

And in the coming days, we are going to see that community hold funerals and memorial services and continue to grieve. But here in Washington, D.C., the conversation, of course, has turned to gun reform and whether any kind of meaningful action is going to be possible. This kind of action, of course, has been so elusive on Capitol Hill, even after the shooting in Sandy Hook, which, worth reminding everyone, took place some 10 years ago.

But we heard the president earlier today showing a hint of optimism about what he is seeing from some Republicans on Capitol Hill. Here's a little of what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BIDEN: I can do the things that I've done. And any executive action I can take, I will continue to take. But I can't outlaw a weapon. I can't change the background checks. I can't do that.

I think there's a realization on the part of rational Republicans -- and I think Senator McConnell is a rational Republican. I think Cornyn is as well. I think there's a recognition in their part that they -- we can't continue like this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEE: Now, that hint of optimism, we have also heard from some Democratic lawmakers, including Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut.

He said that he has had more conversations with Republicans since the Sandy Hook shooting. They're talking about things like background checks and red flag laws. But, guys, in the coming months, we are about to learn whether what happened and Uvalde, whether that is about to go on as just another mass shooting that didn't result in any meaningful gun reform or whether, this time, we're going to see change.

That's obviously something that the president is very much personally invested in.

BLACKWELL: All right, M.J. Lee for us at the White House, thank you.

CAMEROTA: Our next guest has been covering school shootings for more than two decades, ever since the Columbine shooting in 1999. Dave Cullen is the author of "Columbine" and ""Parkland: Birth of a Movement."

And Dave joins us now.

Dave, you and I have obviously had too many of these conversations after school shootings. But I am happy to talk to you today, because I do think that much of the conversation is focused on the wrong thing. Why aren't we talking -- yes, the police screwed up. They admitted it. They have screwed up horribly in this case. But so did the gun store seller who sold the two AR-15s to this clearly troubled 18-year-old.

[14:25:10]

Why don't we focus in more on that and figure out how to stop it before the guy shows up at a school with an AR-15?

DAVE CULLEN, AUTHOR, "COLUMBINE": I totally agree.

I was talking to some friends of mine yesterday. And I went on -- actually another CNN show yesterday, and I was frustrated after, because we talked too much about that, and including me. It's hard not to.

But I agree. It's sort of changing the subject. And one of the things that the Parkland kids did that was so revolutionary, what really changed things, is because, after these things, we have all these conversations about mental health, about media coverage, about guns. There are all these different things.

And those kids focus the conversation by saying, like, you guys can talk about whatever you want. We picked one. We think the most important thing is guns. All we're going to talk about is guns. You want to bring up -- David Hogg would say like, you want to bring up mental health? Great. We should solve that. Go ahead and do that. But I'm not talking to you about that. We're talking about guns.

That's the thing. And they kept us on guns, because that is the right thing. Yes, if the cops had gotten there sooner -- obviously, they totally should have gotten in sooner -- like, but then maybe, like, 15 people would have died?

The only way to stop the slaughter -- I have said for years, like, once the shooting starts, it's way too late. We have failed.

CAMEROTA: Thank you.

CULLEN: We have to solve this before that with real gun safety legislation.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

And, by the way, I mean, I don't know, if you were listening to our previous segment with two former high-level law enforcement officials. There's no law that says that you have to sell a gun to an 18-year-old who comes into your store. And there's no law that says you can't ask some questions.

There are all sorts of screening questions that police and doctors ask people all the time: Are you feeling depressed? Are you feeling isolated? Are you considering harming anyone? Why can't we just have gun store owners or sellers start asking some of those questions?

CULLEN: Well, that would be a great start, although, I mean, they're for the profit motive. They would prefer to sell a gun. It's not in their interest.

I mean, I think we need to legislate some of these things. And an easy start is, like, not 18-year-olds. Actually, I didn't think about -- I'd never heard about this idea, which, of course, makes sense. At 18, your slate is wiped clean. So any background check is not going to detect anything you have done.

CAMEROTA: Right.

CULLEN: So, another thing, raising the age of 21, aside from also being the age required to buy cigarettes or alcohol or -- is that, OK, at least we have got three years of history of you, whether you should fail a background check.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

CULLEN: That seems like an easy thing -- a starter thing to do.

One of the things we talked about on gun safety is -- your reporter was talking about whether this time will be different. And like, we know this time won't be different. Congress is not going to pass a sweeping gun safety bill. That's not happening this time.

What...

(CROSSTALK)

CAMEROTA: How do you know? I mean, how can you say that so definitively?

CULLEN: Well, I hope to be wrong, but because we have got a 50/50 Senate, and two of the Democratic members, Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema, are unlikely to board on -- on board on these things.

They might come along on something. And then all the Republicans normally oppose. And so -- and you need 60 with the filibuster. So, how is that going to happen? They may compromise and find some small thing. Like, now they're talking about red flag laws or something, which would be great. But that's a small thing.

But what we can do is incremental things, including so many laws are being passed at the state level. We need more states. Some of them have. But we need more states to start raising that age to 21. Will that solve the problem completely?

No, we need a whole list of different things. The gun problem is also a multi-precedent problem. You know what two-thirds of the gun deaths -- who dies from two-thirds of the gun deaths? Suicides.

People shooting other people is not even the majority of the problem. Suicides are.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

CULLEN: So, obviously, we need something aimed at suicides.

We need something aimed at inner-city people, where -- which is also the biggest part of the problem.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

CULLEN: Ninety percent of the (AUDIO GAP) people are inner-city people of color.

It's -- mass shootings, we need to address, but that's one of many.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

CULLEN: That's a tiny fraction of the total.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

CULLEN: So, we need a laundry list of different things that address the different types of problems, and start one by one.

Like, that's the solution. It's not a single panacea . CAMEROTA: Right. But you have to start somewhere.

And so the idea, when Congress starts saying, well, we have enough laws, I mean, you're never going to stop a bad guy who wants to do something, that's just not true. You have to start somewhere, as we know.

Dave, I only have a few seconds left. I know you talked to Gabby Giffords about it. What did she say?

CULLEN: Yes.

And I have -- I posted an answer with her in "Vanity Fair" that just posted yesterday.

[14:30:00]