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Deadly Tulsa Shooting is 233rd Mass Shooting in U.S. So Far This Year; More Services Today for Victims of Robb Elementary School Shooting; Russia on Verge of Capturing Key City Despite Counterattacks. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired June 02, 2022 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: A very good Thursday morning to you. I'm Jim Sciutto.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Poppy Harlow. We are following several major stories this morning, including the nation's 233rd mass shooting just this year, more shootings than days in the year so far, this time, in a hospital in Tulsa, Oklahoma. At least four people were killed yesterday when a gunman carrying a handgun and a rifle opened fire inside of the facility. Officials say the shooter is dead from a self-inflicted gunshot wound.

SCIUTTO: This is not normal. Shootings in numbers like this are unique to this country. The data shows it. Officials describe the gunman in this latest mass murder as a black male between the ages of 35 and 40. Investigators still working on determining the motive, but believe the shooter was targeting a specific individual at the hospital.

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CAPT. RICHARD MEULENBERG, TULSA POLICE: This is not a random event. It's not as if he went to hospital and was indiscriminately shooting at people. He very purposefully went to this location, went to a very specific floor and shot with very specific purpose.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Discriminately shooting several people. All of this today as more families in Uvalde, Texas, say goodbye to their loved ones murdered at Robb Elementary School. Some of those loved ones, well, they had things like little blue teddy bears.

19 children and 2 teachers were killed last week, you'll remember, when a gunman opened fire inside two classrooms there. This morning, there are new details about the investigation into that shooting and the response. The mayor says a negotiator did try to speak to the gunman during the massacre.

Let's begin this morning with CNN Correspondent Lucy Kafanov. She is near the St. Francis Hospital campus in Tulsa, the second shooting that we've had to see in the last week.

So, you are getting new details about the gun used in the shooting and we have to specify, because people lose track, not Uvalde, but in that shooting in Tulsa. What do we know?

LUCY KAFANOV, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jim, an AR-15 style rifle was used in the Buffalo supermarket shooting, it was used last week in the Uvalde, Texas, school shooting, and we know it was one of the two weapons used in yesterday's shooting here in Tulsa, Oklahoma. We understand the gunman purchased that AR-style rifle the same day of the shooting.

We know that police got a call at roughly 4:50 P.M. local time. There were reports of a man with a rifle. They showed up on the scene shortly thereafter they heard gun shots. That's what drew officers to the second floor of the medical center behind me.

By the time the officers got up there, the shooting stopped. They walked. They saw the first victim. They saw the next victim. And then they saw the gunman with a self-inflicted wound. He had apparently shot himself with a pistol.

Now, the suspect was found with two firearms, police say, described as a semiautomatic rifle. We now know through CNN sources that this was an AR-15-style firearm that he purchased the day of the shooting as well as a semiautomatic pistol. That one was purchased, according to one source, on May 29th.

Police say both weapons appear to have been fired at some point. Unclear whether the four people killed were medical staff. There was one other person killed who died outside of the hospital there, evacuated, and then, of course, the shooter lost his life as well. So, five people dead, no officers injured, multiple others wounded, less than ten, none of those injuries life-threatening, but it was a chaotic, terrifying scene for the people on-site. Take a listen.

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's sad.

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It's so sad. I was coming to the doctor and I got my grandkids with me, and this terrible scene, it's awful. It's sad. My daughter-in-law is from Buffalo, so now it's so close to home, it's not even safe if you come outside anymore, you know?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This really does happen. You see it on T.V., but you don't think it's going to happen right in front of your eyes. So, now, this is a wake-up call for my kids, like this can really happen anywhere and it's very scary. You can't even go to a store. You can't even go to school.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now, you can't even go to the doctor. (END VIDEO CLIP)

KAFANOV: Yes. It could happen anywhere. It's happening seemingly everywhere we seem to be covering these consistently. We do expect an update from law enforcement and local officials at 10:00 A.M. local time. We'll bring you the latest.

HARLOW: Lucy, thank you so much.

Let's bring in our CNN Law Enforcement Analyst and former acting Baltimore police commissioner Anthony Barksdale.

I just -- you can hear it in Lucy's voice, right? She went home from one mass shooting, home to Denver for 12 hours, to next mass shooting. You have been on television, Commissioner, every day, and now you are on to talk about another mass shooting. And, by the way, we learned the gunman in this mass shooting in Tulsa bought that gun, the AR-15- style weapon the day of the shooting. What's your reaction?

ANTHONY BARKSDALE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: There's a pattern here. We're seeing individuals with these assault rifles choose soft targets. We've seen them attack a supermarket. We've seen them attack a school with teachers and kids. And now here we are, assault rifle in a hospital. There's a pattern here and it's a deadly pattern. And it continues. And we've got to do something about it.

SCIUTTO: So, here we are again, the politicians, principally Republican politicians, talk about everything but the weapon, right, in terms of possible prescriptions for solving this. I want to ask what police believe. And I ask this question regularly, we asked it of New York cops. They say, listen, guns come in here from many states with lax gun laws. They call it an iron pipeline up north. You served many years as a police chief. What do police, what does law enforcement believe? Do they believe that gun restriction, background checks, et cetera, would make things better, would make a difference?

BARKSDALE: From my career and for those law enforcement executives and officers and detectives, yes, yes, that would help. You have to keep these weapons out of the wrong hands. Nobody is saying let's, you know, skip the Second Amendment. No one is saying that. But as law enforcement, we see, I saw what happens when the wrong people have guns and they don't care. They don't care about my life, your life, anybody. They just use these weapons and destroy communities, they destroy families. So, yes, I believe and many others in law enforcement believe that solid background checks could be very helpful in fighting this problem.

SCIUTTO: Anthony Barksdale, always good to have you on, thank you so much.

In Texas, there are several more funeral services for the victims of the mass shooting at Robb Elementary School, and they're for children. There are funerals for those little kids there, 11-year-old Maranda Gail Mathis, 10-year-old Eliahna Torres, 10-year-old Nevaeh Alyssa Bravo. HARLOW: Visitations will be held for the others you see on your screen, 10-year-old Jayce Carmelo Luevanos, 10-year-old Jailah Nicole Silguero and also 10-year-old Jacklyn Cazares.

Our Nick Valencia is in Uvalde. Nick, as this community reels and will, you know, forever, frankly, they're still getting more information. Now, we're learning about a negotiator that was involved, at least in the initial response to the shooting? Is that right?

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Poppy. We are hearing from the first time an at length interview from the Uvalde mayor who says that when he arrived at the scene, he was at a nearby church with a negotiator who was desperately trying to reach the gunman who was inside while the shooting was ongoing. And according to the mayor, although he wasn't there initially, he says, from the moment the gunman entered the classrooms, that there were attempts to try to reach him by phone but those attempts were unsuccessful.

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Look, guys, like so many here, the mayor says he's frustrated with the shifting narrative provided by law enforcement, but he says he maintains trust in the law enforcement investigation.

Meanwhile, this morning, we are hearing from parents who rushed to the scene to try to evacuate their children. Listen to this mother describe what she saw when she showed up.

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ANGELI GOMEZ, WENT TO ROBB ELEMENTARY DURING SHOOTING TO GET TWO SONS: I started paying attention to how far the shots were being, so that I knew the shooter was all the way still by my first son's class. So, when I went to my second son's door, the teacher didn't want to open the door for me. So, that's when they started escorting me out. And as I see that they're opening my son's door, I go run for my son and I get him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VALENCIA: This is going to be lasting trauma here, people that will no doubt be terrorized by nightmares, having to relive this tragedy over and over because grief has no timeline.

And we heard yesterday from Pete Arrendondo who says that he will provide answers to these questions that are lingering when they quit grieving but that will never happen. There are still so many questions here, guys, which is why we're still here continuing to try to answer those questions, but we're not getting anywhere so far. Jim, Poppy?

SCIUTTO: And the ones we have answered show some real, real problems. Nick Valencia, thank you so much.

So, joining us now to discuss the legal side of this, CNN Senior Legal Analyst and former Assistant U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York Elie Honig. Good to have you on, Elie. Okay. So, let's look at potential criminal liability here. The Parkland student resource officer was charged with child neglect, this under Florida law, for not intervening there. That's still ongoing. Could Uvalde officers or commanders face similar charges under Texas state law?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, Jim, any potential criminal charge, of course, is going to turn entirely on the specific details of which specific officers knew what and did what, when. We don't have all those facts yet, but we will.

It is extremely rare to see police officers charged criminally based on their response to a live shooter situation. The only real precedent is, as you note, the charges that were brought against the Parkland school security officer. Those charges are still pending. He's not even been tried yet. So, we don't know if those charges will stick.

Now, there are similar laws under Texas state law. There's a child abandonment law, which applies to any person who has care, custody, or control of a child under 15 and exposes that child to grave danger. Now, there's a question, parents, baby sitters, arguably, teachers, have care, custody, control. Does that apply to a police officer? And prosecutors would have to show intentionality. Mistake or negligence is not enough.

Texas also has a child endangerment law, which could apply to any person who places a child under 15 in danger. There will be a question here about whether the police officers placed the children in danger as opposed to failed to rescue them from danger. These are the nuanced issues that the D.A. in Texas is going to have to consider.

HARLOW: How long, Elie, do you think it will take for the DOJ to get real concrete answers here? Because you've got the DOJ review that will happen and then you have this critical incident review of the law enforcement response that is going to be separate.

HONIG: So, I think, and I really hope DOJ understand the urgency of the moment. I think it's absolutely correct, necessary, and the right thing for DOJ to send a team down there to do an investigation. We need answers. The families need answers.

And DOJ has enormous resources and expertise, so I would hope they can get this done within, let's say, an outside frame of two months. You need to expedite this with all that you have. And it's important to note, Poppy, anyone who speaks to this DOJ team, and everybody ought to speak with them, if anybody lies to that DOJ team, that's a crime too. That's a federal crime. We call it 1,001, making a false statement to any federal investigator.

So, let's hope anyone who speaks to them is candid and forthcoming and gives them the whole truth.

SCIUTTO: What about the potential for other federal crimes in this? You have different laws. I mean, we brought up the example of how the officers in George Floyd, they were charged and convicted actually for failure to render aid in that situation, but do you see applications here for federal law?

HONIG: So, Jim, it is a federal crime for a police officer and an agent of the state to intentionally deprive someone, to willfully deprive someone of a constitutional right.

So, the question is what's the constitutional, right? There's actually not a recognized constitutional right to be kept safe from harm by police. Maybe there should be, maybe someday there will be such a right, but there is no such recognized right right now.

The creative theory is if you look at the way the police officers were charged in the murder of George Floyd, federally, they were charged with depriving him of his constitutional rights by failing to render medical aid. Remember, the theory was they saw him in distress, they didn't give him CPR, they didn't give him other basic aid. And they were convicted on that basis by the jury.

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So, the theory here would be, if, if the proof shows that police officers here knew that students or teachers inside that building needed aid and did not give it to them, needed medical aid and did not give it to them. On a similar theory, perhaps there could be federal charges. Again, that's going to turn heavily on the specifics of the facts.

SCIUTTO: Elie Honig, always good to have you on, thanks so much.

HONIG: Thanks, Jim and Poppy.

SCIUTTO: Still to come, a song for Uvalde.

We're going to speak with a mariachi musician who brought dozens of musicians together there in the town square trying to do their part to help people heal.

HARLOW: But, first, we go to Ukraine where Russians are closing in on a key city in the east and the White House where President Biden is about to meet with the NATO secretary general about critical steps in the region.

Also, rising sea levels are a worry, but one may see as a concern for the future. We'll take you specifically here. The future came much sooner than expected for one Carolina coastal town. Stay with us.

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SCIUTTO: Next hour, we will see President Biden with the NATO secretary general at the White House. They are meeting in advance of the NATO summit in Madrid at the end of this month.

HARLOW: And this comes as the White House weighs the next steps in the Ukraine war just days after Biden announced the latest security package that does include some advanced rocket systems. Our White House Correspondent John Harwood joins us this morning from the White House. John, can you talk about the priority ahead of this meeting that Biden has with Jens Stoltenberg?

JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Poppy, the overarching priority is to keep the allies on the same page as the conflict in Ukraine focuses, in the face of early defeats, pulled back to focus on the east and the south. Everyone recognizes that this conflict is going to grind on for months at a minimum. Remember, Russia first began fighting in Donbas with proxies eight years ago. So, this is going to go on for a long time.

Unity among the allies is harder to maintain the longer it goes on. They have been impressively unified so far, as Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg said yesterday at a conference with Secretary of State Blinken. Putin wanted less NATO, he got more NATO. That means not just more NATO in terms of a united front but also a broader front. We now have the attempt by Finland and Sweden to accede NATO. That is a key priority for this meeting.

We know that any individual member of NATO can veto that. Turkey has raised its voice against that. They are negotiating. The United States and NATO leaders are involved in trying to negotiate those differences, which involve those countries' treatment of Kurdish communities in their countries.

You also potentially have the factor of the sale of military hardware to Turkey. Secretary of State Blinken yesterday said, well, that's a separate question from dealing with Turkey's concerns about Finland and Sweden. But as we all know, in diplomacy, sometimes things moving on separate tracks can coincide in a way that resolves a problem.

They're hoping to resolve it by the time of that NATO meeting at the end of the month and get Finland and Sweden into NATO. They expressed confidence yesterday, Blinken and Stoltenberg did, that that will happen. President Biden is going try to bring that across the finish line beginning with this meeting today.

SCIUTTO: John Harwood at the White House, thanks so much.

HARLOW: Well, they are on the ground in Ukraine. Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy now says 20 percent of the country is under Russian control and we've learned Russia is on the verge of potentially capturing a key eastern city, even as Ukrainian troops try to mount counterattacks to stop them. Ukraine's first lady says even if they agreed to give up some territory, which they won't, I should note, it would not end Russian aggression.

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OLENA ZELENSKA, FIRST LADY OF UKRAINE: We are not prepared to concede our freedom, our territory. One cannot lose part of one's territory and relax, unfortunately. Our aggressor will not stop at parts of our territory because they will not cease until they destroy us completely.

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SCIUTTO: CNN Senior International Correspondent Matthew Chance is live in Kyiv. And, Matthew, as you know, you have a lot of preaching sometimes coming from this direction towards Ukraine, saying what they should give up and how much and when to bring along a ceasefire. You speak to Ukrainian officials. Tell us their view of ceding territory to try to tempt Russia to some sort of agreement.

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I mean, it's a good question, and that attitude has, I would say, hardened over the past several months. Before the conflict took place four months ago, I think there was a sort of realistic part of the current Ukrainian government that thought, well, look, you know, we'll probably be better off if we didn't have, you know, these problematic sort of pro-Russian areas in the east of the country. And there was an acknowledgment it was going to be impossible to get back Crimea, which was annexed by Russia, of course, back in 2014.

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And privately, perhaps, some individuals inside the administration here may still continue to have those views, but it's become politically impossible to say that in public and for that to be the country's policy. And it could lead to all sorts of very negative consequences for any government minister that stands up and proposes that or is seen to accept that when it's suggested by other countries. I mean, it's become hard line now.

And as you heard President Zelenskyy's wife there telling ABC, the idea of rewarding Russia, the idea of rewarding the Russian president for this what is regarded here as an abject act of hostility towards the country is unpalatable. And unless it's forced upon them, the Ukrainian government are not going to accept it.

HARLOW: Matthew Chance, thank you very much, as always, every day for your reporting there for us.

Meantime, the Ukrainian people are celebrating a very meaningful, emotional victory in the world of sport. Ukraine's national soccer team is now just one win away from qualifying for the World Cup later this year.

SCIUTTO: You can feel the spirit watching the game. Keep in mind, most of these players play for domestic Ukrainian teams. They haven't played competitively for months because of a war in their country, yet they beat Scotland 3-1 in Glasgow, home game for Scotland yesterday.

The team's coach said he was not sure how fit the team would be after that nearly six-month pause in training. The match was supposed to be played back in March, postponed, understandably, by the Russian invasion.

Ukraine now faces Wales on Sunday. They win there, they go to the World Cup.

HARLOW: It shows you how much heart can do, and obvious skill too. But, wow, what a thing to see.

All right, using music to help a community after an unthinkable tragedy. Up next, we will hear from one of the musicians who traveled to Uvalde to help residents in their time of need.

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