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DOJ Declines To Charge Meadows And Scavino For Contempt Of Congress; Pence Aide Warned Secret Service Of Security Risk Before January 6; Interview With Rep. Eric Swalwell (D-CA); Multiple Targets Identified After Suspect Kills Former WI Judge; Texas School Massacre; House Lawmakers Clash At Hearing On Gun Violence; FL Governor Blocks State Money For Tampa Bay Rays' Facility After Team Tweets Against Gun Violence. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired June 04, 2022 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:59:15]

JIM ACOSTA, CNN HOST: This just in Miami-Dade County has issued a "no swim" advisory for area beaches after excessive rainfall caused some sewer systems to overflow. Miami has seen more than 11 inches of rainfall in just the last 24 hours.

Some of this footage, look at this right here, just incredible. Drivers getting stranded in waist deep water climbing up onto their car rooftops just to get out of there. And check out what it looks like in this flooded Miami-Dade County neighborhood right there. My goodness.

The Miami-Dade County mayor saying a short time ago, people there are safe but adding this is a warning ahead of what is expected to be a busy hurricane season.

And you are live in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Jim Acosta in Washington.

The American public is getting a sense for where the Justice Department is headed when it comes to the January 6th insurrection probe. Former Trump White House adviser Peter Navarro has been indicted for refusing to cooperate with the House January 6th Committee, but on Friday night where news goes to die, the DOJ dropped more information. There will be no indictment for Mark Meadows and Dan Scavino, two former White House officials in the Trump administration who were found in contempt by the January 6th Committee.

And while the committee prepares to hold their first public hearing next week, a report from the "New York Times" reveals stunning details about the day before the insurrection.

A top Pence aide warned the Secret Service that Trump was going to turn publicly against the vice president, putting him in danger. Just one day later it proved to be true.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CROWD: Hang Mike Pence. Hang Mike Pence.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: And with me now, CNN legal analyst and former federal prosecutor Elliot Williams. He is a former deputy assistant attorney general.

And Elliot, this is a Friday night news dump, no question about it.

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: No question.

ACOSTA: We know them well in this town. The Justice Department will not charge Scavino, not charge Mark Meadows. They are charging Peter Navarro. How do you sort this out?

WILLIAMS: Look, you got to look at every case differently, Jim and set aside Navarro and Steve Bannon who's also been charged.

Number one, the jobs each of these individuals held was different. Steve Bannon for one, wasn't even a White House aide at the time of the conduct in question. Right?

Number two, the nature of their behavior. Both -- there's at least the factual question as to whether Meadows and Scavino complied at least in part with the committee to a point that it just would have been hard to charge them with a crime.

As the Justice Department, you have to be able to make the decision of do we think we could win this in front of a jury. And looking at that, it's just a closer call on the two of them than Peter Navarro and Steve Bannon. So I think it makes sense where they landed on this.

ACOSTA: And on January 5th of this year, Attorney General Merrick Garland had a message for the January 6th perpetrators. Let's watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MERRICK GARLAND, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: The Justice Department remains committed to holding all January 6th perpetrators at any level accountable under law, whether they were present that day or were otherwise criminally responsible for the assault on our democracy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: Otherwise criminally responsible for the assault on our democracy. It sounds like he's talking about people who did not storm the Capitol that day.

WILLIAMS: Right.

ACOSTA: And is declining to prosecute Meadows and Scavino a signal to former Trump administration officials or future administration officials. Does this send -- I mean look what Mark Meadows did, intimately involved in the planning meetings at the White House --

WILLIAMS: Yes.

ACOSTA: -- on the phone, you know, strong arming Brad Raffensperger, the Georgia secretary of state along with Donald Trump. And he's not -- he has all this information, and he's not charged with criminal contempt?

WILLIAMS: Let me push back on that a little bit. I'm going to defend Mark Meadows, it pains me to say that a little bit, but on these bases.

Number one he submitted thousands of pages of documents to the committee before stopping his cooperation, but he did.

Number two, he was White House chief of staff and a number of the communications he would have had with President Trump would have been protected in some way.

Now, is it a sign of future administrations, I think you got two indictments there that are signs to future administrations and you have to look at each one of them differently.

Now to be clear this is not a defense of the conduct of Meadows or Dan Scavino. They also did not -- it's shameful conduct, it's disrespectful to Congress's authority. Is it criminally chargeable? It's just a closer call than the other two cases.

ACOSTA: Yes, I'm old-fashioned, you know. A subpoena used to mean something in this town.

WILLIAMS: And a subpoena from Congress ought to mean something.

ACOSTA: It ought to mean something --

WILLIAMS: I agree with you on that.

ACOSTA: It seems to not be the case here.

But let's talk about this "New York Times" report on Mike Pence, one day before the Capitol riot and insurrection. Pence chief of staff Marc Short reportedly warned the Secret Service and said that Trump was going to turn against Pence, and that might put Pence's security at risk.

The Secret Service disputes this and says that that was not the case, this was not communicated.

But let's listen to what Trump said. Let's listen to what Trump said two days before the insurrection.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I hope Mike Pence comes through for us, I have to tell you. I hope that our great vice president, our great vice president comes through for us. He's a great guy.

Of course, if he doesn't come through, I won't like him quite as much. No, Mike is a great guy. He's a wonderful man and a smart man, and a man that I like a lot. (END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: I mean, you know, listening to that sound now. I mean, he's obviously in every opportunity he has, publicly and privately, leaning on the vice president at the time to deliver him the election.

WILLIAMS: Yes.

[17:04:55]

ACOSTA: And you know, when you couple that with this testimony that was coming into the January 6th committee that Meadows was warned that there might be violence on January 6th, it's astonishing.

WILLIAMS: It's astonishing, and to me it's a couple of things.

Number one, it's relevant to how much knowledge they had in advance of January 6th that there would have been violence on that day. And that's entirely important for the committee to get to the bottom of.

Number two, it shows how important Marc Short, Mike Pence's chief of staff is going to be as a witness. He would have been in the room for a lot of these conversations between the president or at least would have been privy to them. They've got to call him as a witness. We have to see as a public sort of the contents of the conversations they've already had.

ACOSTA: Yes. And that will be dramatic because it pits the Trump team versus the Pence team as implications for 2024.

All right, Elliot, thank you very much.

WILLIAMS: Of course.

ACOSTA: We appreciate it. The DOJ's Friday night news dump is an ominous sign that Trump's big lie could lead to the big letdown when it comes to accountability. Take Mark Meadows and the most damning chapters in the insurrection story seems to have his fingerprints all over them, including the call in which Trump pressured Georgia election officials, Trump's rally at the Ellipse on January 6 and Trump's hours' late video message to the rioters.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: So look, all I want to do is this. I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have because we won the state.

We're going to the Capitol. We're going to try and give them the kind of pride and boldness that they need to take back our country. We fight like hell, and if you don't fight like hell, you're not going to have a country anymore.

We won in a landslide. This was a landslide. They said it's not American to challenge the election. This is the most corrupt election in the history maybe of the world. We will never give up. We will never concede it doesn't happen. You don't concede when there's theft involved. And to use a favorite term that all of you people really came up with, we will stop the steal.

We love you, you're very special.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: Of course, he was the one trying to do the stealing all along. Democratic Congressman Eric Swalwell joins me now. Congressman, thanks so much for being here.

I hope you don't mind we had to play some of those old low lights leading up to January 6th because it bears reminding. People need to remember what was going on.

And you know, nobody played a more central role in this 2020 scheme that Trump had than Mark Meadows and yet he's avoiding charges for dodging Congress's questions about those efforts. I was just talking to Elliot Williams about this.

It seems to be rewarding bad behavior and sending a bad signal to people at high levels in future administrations. You can just get off scot-free.

REP. ERIC SWALWELL (D-CA): Yes, Meadows is a central figure in this conspiracy to essentially, you know, try and stop the count in Congress, and he also had a direct link, you know, to the chief architect of the insurrection, Donald Trump.

And so it is just puzzling as to why he would not be deemed relevant. And sure, he turned over some texts, but there's no sort of dipping your toe in the water exception for, you know, subpoena and testimony compliance.

So the committee has asked for clarification. They're also litigating this in court, and so I do hope that we ultimately compel Meadows' testimony.

ACOSTA: And what are the feelings that you're getting from some of these moves coming out of the Justice Department? Do you think Trump is going to get off the hook here?

SWALWELL: Look, it certainly looks like with the grand jury subpoena of Peter Navarro that the investigation has quote, unquote "surfaced", meaning you know, they are now in a public way it's clear that they are looking at the principals around Donald Trump. And that's -- that's a good thing because, you know, this insurrection started with Donald Trump. And it seems fitting that accountability would end with Donald Trump.

So it looks like they are piecing together and linking conspirators to conspiratorial acts, of course, the conspiracy to stop the count, and so that is a positive sign as far as where that investigation is going.

ACOSTA: And so I guess I have to ask, do you have confidence in the attorney general at this point?

SWALWELL: I do. And justice never moves as quickly as we want it to move. I was a prosecutor. I know that most white collar cases, and this would be regarded as, you know, kind of a -- you know, it's a case of violence and, you know, a case of, you know, this conspiracy effort to defraud the election, cases like this can take years. And you only get one shot when you go after someone like Donald Trump.

[17:09:55]

SWALWELL: But as long as he is actually pursuing the principals in the case, the big fish so to speak, that does, you know, make me feel that accountability is coming.

Now, if that's not the case, there's going to be a lot of concern because, you know, Jim, this is a present threat. The January 6th commission is looking, of course, at the past, but everything that happened before January 6th is actually happening right now throughout the country with state legislatures, and you know, attorney general and secretary of state and gubernatorial candidates that the Republican Party is running and Donald Trump is endorsing. So we are in a very combustible environment as we go into the midterm elections.

ACOSTA: And I have to ask you about those "New York Times" report from Maggie Haberman that the day before the Capitol attack then Vice President Pence's top staffer Marc Short warned the Secret Service that Donald Trump was going to turn on Pence publicly which would create a security risk for the vice president.

The Secret Service official, we've been noting all day, has disputed this. I mean what do you make of that? And to me the real question is -- and I think you were hinting at this just a few moments ago -- is what kind of message does this send long-term?

If every -- ok, let's say you have some hearings, and yes, they are dramatic and the heat is really turned up during the testimony and so on. But if nobody is ultimately held accountable, doesn't that send a terrible message to the country and set the stage for future election shenanigans and criminality?

SWALWELL: If there is not accountability at the very top, Jim, I'm afraid that we may -- we may have seen, you know, the last transfer of power between parties that the Republicans would ever allow. They do not seem to have learned the right lesson that they lost and good people like secretary of state Raffensperger in Georgia did the right thing and certified the election.

They're going to learn the wrong lesson, which is to put in place people who will not accept an election outcome. They prefer violence over voting. So if there's not accountability, I'm afraid that this Republican Party would never peacefully concede an election again. And that's a terrifying place for our country to be in.

ACOSTA: You mentioned the Georgia case. I've been told by a Trump adviser that they are still worried inside the Trump team about that case as it's developing in Georgia, so we have to keep our eyes on that as well.

Let's switch gears. This week you were part of a heated debate in the House Judiciary Committee over a new gun bill. And you didn't mince any words. Let's watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SWALWELL: They say it's about mental health. Ok, we try and fund mental health, they vote against it. They say it's about school, we try and fund the schools, fund the teachers, they vote against it. They say it's about policing, $300 million in the American Rescue Plan for community policing. They all voted against it.

And they don't want to listen to the police. If they listen to the police, they'd listen to the major cities' chiefs who have called for background checks, red flag laws, banning bump stocks, and banning high-capacity magazines.

And then they say laws don't work, but they have no problem crafting laws to take away a woman's own right to make her own health care decisions. That law must work.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: Congressman, do you have any sense at all that maybe some GOP lawmakers may be moving in your direction or at least to some kind of middle ground, common ground to get something passed?

SWALWELL: And Jim, common ground, by the way, among just gun owners where a 97 percent poll, it's an organization called 97 Percent, they polled only gun owners in the last month, and they found 86 percent support background checks, well over 75 percent support red flag laws, and over 70 percent support safe storage.

So you have an organization that is looking at just what gun owners want, and you find that what gun owners want is much more sensible than what the Republican leaders in Congress want.

But I was encouraged to see a Republican in the Buffalo area who was affected by the Buffalo shooting at a supermarket a couple of weeks ago, came out in favor of an assault weapons ban. But if course what happened Jim, was he was told he was going to be primaried. Elise Stefanik is recruiting someone, you know, to now run in that seat. And he's no longer running for Congress.

That's the state of the Republican Party right now. You have to say we're going to do nothing while more and more kids die. And I posed the question to them at that hearing, who are you here for? Are you here for the kids, or are you here for their killers?

ACOSTA: And of course we've invited Republican lawmakers on this program many times to talk about this issue. I'll extend the invitation one more time right here, if any of them -- any of them want to come on to talk about this issue, we're happy to extend the invitation.

Congressman Eric Swalwell, thank you very much. We appreciate it.

SWALWELL: My pleasure. Thanks Jim.

ACOSTA: And coming up, a former Wisconsin judge killed in what officials are calling a targeted attack. The suspect had other targets in mind, including Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell. You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

[17:14:49[

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ACOSTA: We're learning the identity of the gunman who officials say killed a former Wisconsin judge and had several high-profile politicians on a list of targets. The suspect now in the hospital in critical condition.

CNN's Whitney Wild is here with me now. Whitney, you just got some new information from the Wisconsin Justice Department -- very disturbing case. What have you learned?

WHITNEY WILD, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT CORRESPONDENT: Well, we have just learned minutes ago, again, the name of that suspect, Douglas Kay Ute (ph), a 56 year old man who was found inside that same home where Judge John Roemer was killed.

What we know from sources is that there was basically a hit list, and it included high profile government officials like Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer, Wisconsin Governor Tony Evers, Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell.

Officials say that this appears to be in some way related to the judicial system, but they're working to figure out how that all fits together.

What they know now is that this all started at 6:30 Friday morning when a man ran out of Judge Roemer's home and 911 saying there was an armed person, saying there were two shots fired.

[17:19:58]

WILD: Police tried to negotiate with the suspect inside, but those efforts failed. And so at around 10:15 that morning, tactical teams finally made entry into the home where they found 68-year-old John Roemer dead. Again, this is where they found that suspect with a self- inflicted gunshot wound. Officials stressed this wasn't random.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSH KAUL, WISCONSIN ATTORNEY GENERAL: This as I mentioned before, does appear to be a targeted act, and the individual who's the suspect appears to have had other targets as well. It appears to be related to the judicial system.

(END VIDEO CLIP) WILD: Federal officials have been warning for months about anti- government sentiment, this heightened threat environment. The real fear here is a case just like this, someone flying under the radar of law enforcement, someone with access in some way to a firearm taking aim at a highly visible and soft target like a county circuit court judge, Jim.

And so again, this really fits into this greater landscape we've been talking a lot about. The reality here that violence is bubbling up to the surface. And as I had said before, you know, I spoke with an official who has a good understanding of this threat landscape and what they're very concerned about is the possibility that cases like this inspire other people to act upon their grievances in a violent way.

ACOSTA: Very worrisome. All right. Whitney Wild, thank you very much. We appreciate it.

This just in, a manhunt is underway in Lexington, Kentucky after two people were shot attending a funeral. According to officials, a man has life-threatening injuries, I should say, and a woman has nonlife threatening injuries.

That's the latest information from this still developing story. The suspect apparently fled the scene and no arrests have been made.

We're going to stay on top of that and keep you posted as that story develops. A manhunt underway right now for two people -- after two people were shot at a Kentucky funeral.

Coming up, we're now learning that the police chief in charge at Uvalde didn't have a police radio on him during that shooting. More on the investigation next.

And today marks the birthday of one of the Uvalde victims, Eliahna Garcia would have been 10 years old today. Her family is now planning her funeral on Monday.

[17:22:07]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ACOSTA: We're now hearing from a mother in Uvalde, Texas who says she was handcuffed by U.S. Marshals.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANGELI GOMEZ, SAVED HER TWO SONS DURING UVALDE SCHOOL SHOOTING: U.S. Marshals started coming towards my car saying that I wasn't allowed to be parked there, and he said, well, we're going to have to arrest you because you're being very uncooperative.

I said, well, you're going to have to arrest me because I'm going in there, and I'm telling you right now I don't see none of you all in there. You all are standing with snipers, and you all are far away. If you don't go in there, I'm going in there. Because I'm like you all aren't doing (EXPLETIVE DELETED). What are you all doing? You're not doing (EXPLETIVE DELETED). Give me a bat, somebody give me a bat.

They could have done something, gone through the window, sniped him through the window. I mean nothing was being done. If anything they were being more aggressive on us parents that were willing to go in there. And like I told one of the officers, I don't need you to protect me. Get away from me. I don't need your protection. I need you to go in there with me to protect my kids.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: Wow.

CNN's Nick Valencia is in Uvalde. Nick, some of these parents, I mean they are understandably furious. Just an incredible account from that mother, and she like so many other parents, they're seeking answers. They want accountability.

The school board held its first meeting since the shooting yesterday, is this community getting any closer to accountability? What's the latest?

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know, the short answer is no, not today, and there's still so many unanswered questions. There are not any clear answers, even when it comes to the next step at Robb Elementary School.

They held that first school board meeting nearly two weeks since the shooting, and in it the superintendent reiterated something we already knew, that students aren't going to return to class there. But what was most striking, perhaps most striking, is the fact there was no mention of the future of the disgraced school board or school district police chief Pete Arredondo. And it was a fact that clearly disgusted some parents that were in attendance.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have a fourth grader that was in the room next door that's terrified. My niece died. I have a 6-year-old that just told me I don't want to go to school. Why? To be shot.

I have one going into junior high. I have a third grader. We want answers to where the security is going to take place. This was all a joke.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VALENCIA: Pete Arredondo, of course, the controversial figure here in Uvalde who failed to let police officers go into that barricaded classroom where the gunman was shooting children. You would think that these officers would have a human or moral obligation despite the command from Arredondo not to go in.

For them to hear potentially the groans of these children who were dying in there, and yet they stood in the hallway allowing this gunman in there for nearly 80 minutes.

And now the "New York Times" reporting that Arredondo didn't even have his radio on him though he was in charge of the incident command. And while it is not uncommon for police to use cell phones during active threats it just is another example of the lack of action here by the police. The failure here while these children were frightened.

And again, the "New York Times" reporting -- receiving a transcript, just a heart wrenching transcript of a call coming from a 10-year-old inside the classroom as the gunman was opening fire.

I want to read part of that transcript for our viewers here. "There is a lot of bodies. I don't want to die. My teacher is dead. My teacher is dead. Please send help. Send help for my teacher. She is shot but still alive."

[17:30:00]

Those words coming from Khloe Torres, 10 years old. She had just moved with her family from Louisiana to Uvalde over spring break.

And one of her best friends, Anne Marie Jogarde (ph) died during that shooting. Torres said she had to play dead so the shooter would spare her life -- Jim?

ACOSTA: It's excruciating. And these parents have every right to be outraged. It is just unacceptable what they've all been through down there.

Nick Valencia, thank you very much for that report. We appreciate it.

Tomorrow night CNN goes inside the Watergate scandal like never before, with Woodward and Bernstein, the Watergate prosecutors and the man who turned on Nixon, White House counsel, John Dean.

Here's a preview of the new CNN original series, "WATERGATE: BLUEPRINT FOR A SCANDAL".

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Tomorrow, a new original series.

RICHARD NIXON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I have no intention of ever walking away from the job the people elected me to do.

ANNOUNCER: Experience Watergate like never before. Hear what happened behind closed doors from the people who were there, the journalists.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Most people didn't believe the stories we were writing.

ANNOUNCER: The investigators, the lawmakers, and the ultimate inside man.

JOHN DEAN, FORMER WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL: Many have tried to dissect the events of Watergate. I lived them.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Conspiracy, extortion, blackmail.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The wiretapping.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was explosive.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nixon engaged in activities that were criminal to secure his victory.

ANNOUNCER: And see how this pivotal moment still echoes 50 years later.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When you have a president who thinks he can do anything, we're in trouble.

ANNOUNCER: "WATERGATE: BLUEPRINT FOR A SCANDAL" premiers tomorrow at 9:00, only on CNN.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:37:15]

ACOSTA: On Capitol Hill, lawmakers are facing intense pressure to act in the wake of mass shootings. Tensions ran high as the House Judiciary Committee debated a wide-ranging package of gun control legislation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. DAVID CICILLINE (D-(RI): You know who didn't have due process? You know who didn't have their constitutional right to life respected? The kids at Parkland and sandy hook and Uvalde, and buffalo and the list goes on and on, so spare me the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) about constitutional rights.

REP. GREG STEUBE (R-FL): Here's a seven-round magazine, which would be less than what would be lawful under this bill if this bill were to become law. It doesn't fit, so this gun would be banned.

UNIDENTIFIED CONGRESSMAN: I hope that gun is not loaded.

STEUBE: I'm at my house. I can do whatever I want with my guns.

REP. LOUIE GOHMERT (R-TX): You think we don't have hearts? It's just that, when we look at the things that you're doing and you're trying to do to America, we've seen the carnage.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: Joining me now is the father of Parkland victim, Jaime Guttenberg, and gun safety advocate, Fred Guttenberg. He's the author of "Find the Helpers: What 9/11 and Parkland Taught Me About Recovery Purpose." And also with me is former presidential candidate, former congressman

and gun rights supporter, Joe Walsh.

The two of you, gentlemen, hats off to you both, having great discussions about how two people with very different views on this issue can come together and try to find some common ground.

Joe, let me start with you first.

What do you make -- you were in Congress? To have a hearing about gun safety after these mass shootings and have a member of Congress waving guns around, I mean, it's just -- come on.

JOE WALSH, (R), FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Jim, I served in that body. I'm a big gun rights guy. I would never do something like this.

Look, mental health, the breakdown of families, isolation, a culture of violence, these are all things we need to talk about.

But, Jim, my side, the right, has a blind spot in even talking about guns and that's got to stop.

ACOSTA: And, Fred, President Biden made a lot of news this week when he said he wants assault weapons banned. And if that can't be done, he at least wants, you know, the purchase age limit raised to 21.

Let's take a listen to that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Look, I know some folks will say 18-year-olds can serve in the military and fire those weapons, but that's with training and supervision by the best trained experts in the world. Don't tell me raising the age won't make a difference.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: What do you think, Fred?

FRED GUTTENBERG, FATHER OF PARKLAND SHOOTING VICTIM: Raising the age would have saved my daughter. Raising the age would have stopped Uvalde. Raising the age would have stopped Buffalo.

You know, so here's what I think. I think one of the reasons why Joe Walsh is one of the Americans I've come to respect more than most and why we've developed a friendship is because he reached out and we started talking about ways to reduce gun violence and save lives.

Not ways to punish gun owners, but to solve the issue of gun violence. And so I really appreciate President Biden raising that and saying, while I want a ban, I also understand where we are.

So let's, at a minimum, take into the reality check that we have to that the majority of these mass shootings are being done by this age group, and let's do something about it. And we have to. [17:40:00]

ACOSTA: And, Joe, the last time the two of you were on CNN, you were undecided about raising the age to 21.

What are your thoughts now? Are you moving maybe in that direction? What do you think?

WALSH: Well, I'll tell you, Jim, and this is the amazing thing about conversation. Talking to Fred and other gun safety folks, you do listen, and it does help shape the way you think.

But the Ninth Circuit court just out in California three weeks ago ruled their law raising the age to 21 unconstitutional. So I think it's really problematic.

I -- I -- I -- 18 or 21, Jim, anybody who gets an A.R.-15 should have to be trained in how to use that.

I think where Fred and I have come together is doing as much as we can before a gun is bought. You know that.

I mean, things like universal background checks and Red Flag laws, these should be easy. Most Republicans and gun owners --

(CROSSTALK)

ACOSTA: But they're not.

WALSH: Because those Senate Republicans feel pressure from the NRA and other lobbying groups.

Jim, I'm a gun owner. Most gun owners support universal background checks.

ACOSTA: And Fred, next week. there's going to be a very emotional moment when a fourth grader who survived the Uvalde massacre is going to testify before Congress.

I can't imagine what this child is going to be going through. She's 10 years old.

In order to survive, she covered herself -- we've told this so many times on CNN, I can't get over it. She covered herself in the blood of her friend so that she could appear dead. What do you make of that moment?

What do you think that's going to be like? I want to ask the question. Do you think it could change hearts and minds up on Capitol Hill? But I think I know the answer to that. It's probably no.

But what do you think?

GUTTENBERG: Listen -- and I think -- listen, the Ninth Circuit ruling, just to respond to what Joe said a minute ago, was faulty and wrong. And he and I are going to continue having this conversation. Because the reality is it just keeps -- these shootings are happening

by a specific group. And let's talk about Uvalde and this amazing child because there was more that she said.

I mean, talking about her training. She's only, what, 10 years old? But her training to do this kind of a thing. If this is what we want normal to look like in America, then we have a problem.

And do I think it's going to change people? Listen, you showed the clip of Steube. He is a fool. What he did actually motivates shooters in America. And there's data to show it.

I think he's going to change? I don't. Do I think Mitch McConnell will ever step up and utter the word "gun" in this conversation? I don't.

So let's be clear, that amazing young child will be talking to the 80 or 90 percent of America who wants to do something about this.

She'll be talking to the president, who is going to sign legislation, the House is passing legislation, and the 50 members of the Senate who are ready to pass legislation.

I pray, I'm not optimistic, but I pray there are 10 people on the Republican side in the Senate who will be moved by that young lady. But I'm not counting on it.

(CROSSTALK)

WALSH: Jim, it's not going to happen unless gun owners pressure these Senate Republicans, period.

People like Fred and others have been out there for a number of years now. It's time for gun owners to step up. Republicans will listen to that.

ACOSTA: And, Fred, down in your state -- I want to get your reaction to this -- Governor Ron DeSantis, apparently, has blocked money for the Tampa Bay Rays training facility, in part, because the team spoke out against gun violence.

What's your reaction to that, Fred?

GUTTENBERG: Ron DeSantis came to office on the backs of the 17 who died in Parkland. It was his connection to the Parkland families that helped elevate him to a status that helped get him elected.

So what do I think about him now? I think he is a petty, whiny, small person, who has developed some kind of a Napoleon complex, to be quite candid, that he would punish the Tampa Bay baseball team for actually just highlighting the issue of gun violence.

It is beyond thinkable. But he is. Because it's who he is. And we need to punish him for it by not reelecting him.

WALSH: And, Jim, Fred's right. But next to Donald Trump there's no more popular Republican than DeSantis because they want an authoritarian to do this kind of crap.

ACOSTA: They want a mini Trump down in Florida --

WALSH: Yes.

ACOSTA: -- and they have one.

ACOSTA: All right, Joe Walsh, and the great Fred Guttenberg.

Fred, our hat is always off to you and your courage --

GUTTENBERG: Thank you.

ACOSTA: -- your eloquence in discussing this issue. Always, always grateful for your time. We appreciate it.

Quick break and we'll be right back.

[17:45:01]

WALSH: Thanks, guys.

ACOSTA: Take care.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ACOSTA: Julia Child once said, if you're alone in the kitchen and you drop the lamb, you can always just pick it up. Who's going to know?

The new CNN film "JULIA" airing tonight takes us inside the story of America's first celebrity chef and how she forever changed the way Americans think of food, television, and the roles of women in American life.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[17:50:00]

Here's a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: People could relate to her. I learn how to cook at my age, and you can learn at your age to cook as well.

JULIA CHILD, FORMER CELEBRITY CHEF: Cooking is -- lots of it is one failure after another and that's how you finally learn.

Now do this. It's like that.

It's very nice to know you can make all these goodies yourself.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She opened doors for me as a person that I could cook.

CHILD: We're making the stew of stews. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We would watch Julia's show with my grandmother.

And then grandpa would go buy the ingredient and we could cook that meal. She just seemed so unpretentious that we thought, if she could do it, we could do it.

We all grabbed onto to Julia when we began cooking with here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: And I recently got to speak to Anne Burrell, a celebrity chef and host of "Worst Cooks in America" on the Food Network about the impact Julia Child had on her career.

Here is our conversation.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ACOSTA: You've been a big fan of Julia Childs since you were a young girl. Take me back to first time you saw her on TV and why it made such an impression on you.

ANNE BURRELL, CELEBRITY CHEF: Well, hi. Thanks for having me.

I mean, the first time that I remember seeing Julia, I went directly to my mother and said, mom, I have to tell you something. I have a friend name Julie. She said, you do? Who? I said Julie Child. I watch her every day on TV.

What I loved about Julia so much was just exactly what these people were saying. She was accessible and she seemed like it just made everything possible.

And she was entertaining and big and loud and she was weird and had a funny voice.

But then I loved the end of the show. She would take everything to her dining room and have a glass of wine. And in her voice, say, "I'm Julia Child. Bon Appetit." I loved that.

When I started having my own shows on the Food Network, people said, you're like the new Julia. You're big, you're weird, you're quirky, but you make us feel like we can do what you are doing.

ACOSTA: Absolutely. And --

(CROSSTALK)

BURRELL: I've never had a better compliment.

ACOSTA: That's what made her so brilliant. You're so right.

BURRELL: She famously quipped that, when she was 32, when she started cooking, and up until then, she just ate.

She had the wonderful way of embracing mistakes in the kitchen, like so many of us have. Let's watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHILD: I'm going to try to flip this over. It's a rather daring thing to do. You have to have the courage of your conviction, particularly if it's a loose mass like this.

Well, that didn't go very well.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If she made a mistake, she was not remotely rattled.

CHILD: I didn't have the courage to do it the way I should have.

You can always pick it up if you're alone in the kitchen. Who is going to see?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She felt making a mistake was good thing just so she could show you how to fix it.

CHILD: Any time anything like this happens, you haven't lost because you can always turn this into something else. We'll pretend this was supposed to be a baked potato dish.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: It reminds me of me in the kitchen. It's hardly ever perfect.

You have the show, "Worst Cooks in America," where you help people who have no idea how to cook.

Do you feel like you're carrying on her legacy in that respect?

BURRELL: I like to think so. Julia is so close to my heart as a chef.

But, you know, what I try to do on "Worst Cooks in America" is take people who are just absolutely clueless and give them the courage to get into the kitchen and, yes, make mistakes but also learn from those mistakes.

I feel like you definitely learn more from making a mistake because then the next time you're like, all right, I know what to not do or how to prevent it or how to fix it or to turn it into a baked potato dish.

ACOSTA: Before we go, I have to ask, do you have an all-time favorite Julia Child recipe?

BRUNNELL: I mean, it would really have to be her beef. It's classic. But she was just so passionate about so many dishes. Like anything with Julia and to do with eggs, amazing. She really loved an egg.

ACOSTA: Absolutely. She never passed up chance to add a little wine to the recipe, which I picked up from her, I feel like, you know?

BURRELL: I feel like a lot of chefs do that.

[15:55:01]

ACOSTA: I think so, too.

Anne Burrell, what a pleasure to speak with you. Thank you so much.

We're all hungry now. We're off to the kitchen to make something the eat.

But thanks so much for being with us. We appreciate it.

BRUNELL: Thank you. And Bon Appetit.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ACOSTA: Bon Appetit, everybody. Catch an encore presentation of "JULIA," airing tonight at 11:00 Eastern right here on CNN.

That's the news. Reporting from Washington, I'm now a very hungry Jim Acosta. I'll see you back here tomorrow at 4:00 p.m. Eastern.

Pamela Brown takes over the CNN NEWSROOM live after a quick break.

Have a good night.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)