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South Korea and U.S. Launch 8 Missiles in Response to North Korean Launches; January 6th Committee to Hold First Primetime Hearings This Week; Former Firearms Executive Takes on the Gun Industry; January 6 Committee Begins Public Hearings on Thursday; Her Majesty's Supporters Celebrate Historic Milestone; Administration Struggles to Manage Multiple Crises. Aired 7-8p ET

Aired June 05, 2022 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[19:00:01]

PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Just in to CNN, South Korean and U.S. forces launched eight surface-to-surface missiles a short time ago in response to the short-range ballistic missiles North Korea fired last night. It was North Korea's 17 missile launch of this year and the third since South Korean President Yoon came into office.

Let's get more from CNN Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr.

So, Barbara, what is the significance of this?

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (via phone): Well, the U.S. and South Korea apparently, Pamela, pursuing the policies of making a very public response to North Korea's continuing missile launches. As you just said the North Koreans have been on a very fast pace all of this year. And now with eight short range ballistic missiles having been fired on Saturday by North Korea, the U.S. and South Korea jointly responded.

It's Monday morning of course over there, firing eight surface-to- surface missiles. And according to a statement from the South Korean Joint Chief of Staff the firing response is to demonstrate to North Korea that they have the capability to immediately strike with precision if needed. This is one of the key things the U.S. feels is important to do when North Korea does this. There have been these types of responses before but continuing with them trying to send a message to North Korea.

Now of course the big question is, is the North Korean leader Kim Jong-un even listening? Does he even care? We may get a better sense of that because later this week U.S. Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin takes off for Asia and in Singapore. He's expected to meet with his Chinese counterpart. They're going to talk about China and Taiwan, but when it comes to North Korea China also may be the one voice that the North Koreans listen to. And Austin would clearly be expected to make the case that North Korea needs to stop with these missile launches because the ultimate goal of the North Koreans, of course, is to develop a ballistic missile that someday potentially could strike the United States. The U.S. is determined not to let that happen -- Pamela.

BROWN: And do we know anything more about why now? Clearly you pointed out that this is meant to send a strong signal to North Korea but as you pointed out, too, North Korea has been launching -- has been sort of doing a spate of missile testing, launches. So why did the U.S. choose now after this latest one yesterday?

STARR: What we know behind the scenes essentially for those who track this sort of thing, there's always this sort of menu if you will of military response options that the South Koreans and the U.S. discuss every time there's a North Korean missile launch. I think it's fair to say it's the pace that North Korea has been going at. Because even if these are short range, even if some of them don't work, the worry the U.S. has is with every one of these launches the North Koreans learn something.

Even if it's a failure -- test failure by our standards the North Koreans are going to learn something and learn lessons about how to make their missiles better. So the hope is to discourage them. That may be more a hope than a strategy if you will. There's really not anything I think it's fair to say that indicates North Koreans are going to change their policy any time soon.

BROWN: All right, Barbara Starr, thank you so much for the latest on this.

STARR: Sure.

BROWN: So the American public could learn a whole lot more about Donald Trump's push to stay in power last year after he lost reelection. The House committee investigating the January 6th U.S. Capitol riot takes its public hearings in nearly a year to primetime this coming Thursday. The committee has interviewed or deposed more than 1,000 witnesses and collected more than 135,000 documents.

The hearings are expected to include a combination of live testimony and taped depositions including from members of the Trump family and former top White House officials.

CNN national security reporter Zachary Cohen joins us now.

So, we've been promised a lot of so far unseen witnesses and testimony documents. What can we expect?

ZACHARY COHEN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Pamela, these hearings are really the Super Bowl for the committee. They've been conducting this investigation for almost a year but almost all of that work has happened behind closed doors so now they're finally going to get a chance to state their case directly to the American people.

We've uncovered a lot and we've learned a lot about former President Donald Trump's role in efforts to try to overturn the election and those close to him like Mark Meadows were in contact with a host of people who were intimately involved in trying to do so and keep them in power. But the committee is saying that they have evidence that puts Donald Trump directly at the center of an effort to overturn the 2020 election.

[19:05:03]

We heard earlier today from Denver Riggleman. He worked with the committee. He says -- he put it in more stark terms. He said Donald Trump was at the center of a coup. And take a listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Do you think January 6th was an attempted coup? Your opinion. Was this an attempted coup?

DENVER RIGGLEMAN (R), FORMER REPUBLICAN CONGRESSMAN: Personal opinion?

TAPPER: Yes.

RIGGLEMAN: Yes.

TAPPER: By President Trump just to be clear?

RIGGLEMAN: Yes. Yes, I mean, attempted coup. I think when you look at the people around him and the fact that there's awareness or they're talking about things that are -- let's be honest, they're blatantly untrue. Their propaganda. It's apparent that at some points President Trump knew what was going on obviously. Right?

I mean, if you're having meetings within the White House, if you're having individuals that you're paying out there, you know, doing lawsuits, you know, the 64, 65 lawsuits, if you're pushing this sort of lie even on Twitter and social media which is very important which I think the committee is going to concentrate on, if you look at what's happening and the message that's being pushed by President Trump himself on social media and other individuals, you start to see this pipeline of information that's very damaging and is pushing things like "Stop the Steal."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COHEN: And we've heard members of the committee say similar to what Denver Riggleman was saying there. But at the end of the day, the first hearing is going to be about setting the tone for the ones that follow, right? And they're going to be presenting a summary of their findings to the American people. And it's going to come down to whether or not it changes any minds, whether or not it convinces anybody that was on the fence and we're going to see if the committee is up to that task.

BROWN: All right. We shall see. Zach Cohen, thank you so much.

And let's bring in CNN senior legal analyst and former assistant U.S. attorney Elie Honig.

So, what are you expecting from this week's hearings? What are your big questions, Elie?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, Pam, there's so much that we know and have learned about what happened on January 6th. And importantly the weeks and months leading up to it. I think the biggest unknown that I'll be watching for is what exactly was Donald Trump doing and saying during those three plus hours while he was in the White House and the Capitol was under attack.

I think we have some indications. Clearly he did nothing affirmative. We've seen some reporting that people around the former president said that he was gleeful when this was happening but I think the one piece that were missing that's most important is a minute-by-minute, second- by-second to the extent they can recreate it of what exactly did Donald Trump do and say during those three-plus hours.

BROWN: And "The Washington Post" is reporting that former Mark Meadows aide Cassidy Hutchinson will play a key role in the hearings. What kind of information do you want to hear from her and do you think she can provide? And do you expect to hear from any of the big names inside the Trump circle?

HONIG: So no, I don't expect to hear from the Mark Meadows, the Kevin McCarthys, the Jim Jordans, the Steve Bannons. But I think people like Cassidy Hutchinson can give us vital information. Vital testimony from an insider's perspective. If you look at somebody like Cassidy Hutchinson who worked in the White House, like Marc Short who was one of Mike Pence's key advisers, these are people who had access.

They were in the key rooms. They were able to see and hear what was going on. But they're not blindly loyal to Donald Trump. And as a prosecutor, I can tell you that kind of witness can really bring a case home sometimes even more effectively than your next level insider. So I'm looking at people like Cassidy Hutchinson as potentially crucial witnesses.

BROWN: And speaking of those big names the Justice Department decided not to prosecute Trump White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows and Deputy Chief of Staff Dan Scavino. What do you think about that?

HONIG: Well, I think it's confusing to a lot of people. A lot of people are looking at this saying well, four different people defied their subpoenas. Two of them got indicted, Peter Navarro and Steve Bannon. Two did not. Why could that be? I'm trying to put myself back in the prosecutor's mindset. One could be because of what DOJ perceived as the strength of the executive privilege defense here.

Meadows and Scavino probably have stronger executive privilege claims than the two people who were charged, Bannon and Navarro, although I don't think the executive privilege claims are particularly strong in any event. And then there's the fact that Meadows partially cooperated until he stopped and Scavino's lawyers at least went through the motions of negotiating with the committee, whereas the two people who were charged straight up defied the committee.

Again, I think that's a pretty thin basis to split hairs here but I think that's why we ended up with this sort of confusing outcome where two are charged and two were not.

BROWN: Just really quickly, I want to focus on this idea that we just heard from Congressman Nadler that perhaps they're cooperating with DOJ and that's not why they're charged. If you would just give a little bit more by your thoughts on that.

HONIG: I think it's very, very unlikely that that's the case. I would tell you, I cooperated dozens of witnesses as a federal prosecutor. Rule number one is the person has to tell the truth, admit what they did and plead guilty to their crimes. We learned however on Friday exactly the opposite of that. DOJ announced we are not going to be charging Mark Meadows and Dan Scavino. So there's no evidence that these people who've long been loyal to Donald Trump are cooperating. To me there's a powerful counter indicator that that's not the case.

BROWN: All right. So speaking of DOJ, what do you make of it wanting the committee's transcripts? As far as we know the committee hasn't handed them over but DOJ has asked the committee for them. Does that seem reversed to you? What do you think?

HONIG: Yes. I think it's exactly backwards. Typically as a prosecutor you want to and should and do lead the way.

[19:10:03]

Prosecutors have much more powerful tools, they're much more nimble than any congressional staff can be. And this tells me that the committee is ahead of DOJ in terms of its investigation. But look, the committee has done some remarkable work and we've seen some really damning revelations out of the committee. I think we'll see more but it tells me that DOJ is playing catch up when ideally as a federal prosecutor you want to be out on the lead here.

BROWN: All right. So I want to dig in a little bit more into the CNN exclusive. A look at the text messages turned over by Trump's former chief of staff Mark Meadows to the January 6th Committee. The big takeaway is that more than 20 prominent Republicans and allies of the president pleaded for him to call off the mob that day.

Here's some examples. You have Laura Ingraham, "Hey, Mark. The president needs to tell people in the Capitol to go home." Mick Mulvaney, "Mark, he needs to stop this now. Can I do anything to help?" A congressman, "The president needs to stop this ASAP." Donald Trump Jr., "He's got to condemn this," S-word. "ASAP, the Capitol police tweet is not enough." Reince Priebus, "Tell them to go home."

How significant are those messages in your view?

HONIG: So, Pam, those messages drive home a couple of crucial points. That powerful people all around the president, members of Congress, senior advisers, family members understood as this was happening in the moment, one, those people were storming the Capitol for Donald Trump, two, only Donald Trump could call them off.

And there's this phrase that's sort of caught hold of it, dereliction of duty, referring to the fact that Donald Trump did nothing during those three plus hours. But I think we're going to see it's even more than that. Not only did he do nothing but he knew, he understood as everybody else did that he was the only one who could stop them. BROWN: All right. Elie Honig, great to see you. Thanks for coming on.

HONIG: Thanks, Pam. All right.

BROWN: Up next, on this Sunday night, the United States reeling from yet another senseless cycle of violence. Gun violence. And an ex- firearm industry insider talks about his disillusionment with America's gun culture.

And a surprise appearance by the Queen, capping off a long weekend of pomp and ceremony in the U.K.

You're in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:16:15]

BROWN: It was another bloody, violent weekend across the U.S. Mass shootings claiming the lives of nearly a dozen people in just the last 24 hours. In Philadelphia police are searching for multiple suspect that opened fire in a crowded restaurant and bar area overnight. Three people died, 11 more injured.

A similar story in Chattanooga, Tennessee. According to police there, another three people were killed and 14 injured as gunfire erupted outside of a nightclub. And in Mesa, Arizona, two people were killed and two others injured in a shooting outside a bar. Four people are injured in a shooting in Texas and another four were wounded in Michigan. One dead and three wounded injured in Nebraska.

Near Macon, Georgia, one man was killed and three others hurt. And in Lexington, Kentucky, one person was killed and another injured at a shooting at a funeral. In Phoenix one person was killed and eight others injured in a shooting outside of strip mall. And in Summerton, South Carolina, one woman was killed and seven teenagers were injured when someone opened fire on a graduation party.

My next guest wrote in his book he is, quote, "responsible" for selling millions of guns. Former firearms executive and author of "Gun Fight: My Battle Against the Industry that Radicalized America." Ryan Busse joins me now.

So, Ryan, you grew up with guns in Kansas. Why and how have guns become so culturally important in the U.S.?

RYAN BUSSE, FORMER FIREARMS INDUSTRY EXECUTIVE: Well, thanks for having me, Pamela. Couple of different reasons and there's really a couple different types of gun culture. One like I grew up with and so many other Americans grew up with, they were a part of my youth. I hunted and target shot with my dad and my brother, and so many of my friends. And it was really a positive thing.

There's also the sort of gun culture now that has been developed especially since Barack Obama became president in 2008 but really a hateful conspiracy driven, racist driven sort of gun culture that's on the fringes of otherwise responsible gun ownership, and that is the part of gun culture that has taken over much of our politics. That's the part of gun culture that spurred many people to march on January 6th and invade the Capitol and it's that part of gun culture that frankly is controlling our politics now.

BROWN: How are they able to do that? If they're a fringe, why were they able to control the politics in your view?

BUSSE: Well, much like a loud minority of what I think Americans are controlling the politics of the right side of our country, so too are a loud minority of gun owners controlling the politics of the NRA and the politics of guns which frankly is very intricately involved in the politics of the GOP. It happens because they're loud and because they're good at what they do and they're excellent at drumming up conspiracy theories and racism, and getting people very, very frightened. It's really no different. There's a throughline to the politics of the right.

BROWN: In your view do you think that they are preying on people's fear?

BUSSE: I don't only think they're preying on people's fear, I think they're creating fear. I think that I heard so many things in the industry as President Obama began to lead in the polls in 2007 that sounded eerily similar to me to the precursors to QAnon, things like Barack Obama is going to rewrite the Constitution and Barack Obama is going to outlaw hunting ammunition. And Barack Obama doesn't want you to be able to defend your home. And things like just sounded insane to me. And so when I heard QAnon theories, you know, espoused some years later, I thought, well, I've seen the precursor to this. I know where it all started.

BROWN: So you call the gun industry a wild and secretive society. What do you mean by that?

[19:20:03]

BUSSE: Well, it is very similar to a very badly gerrymandered congressional district where only one belief can be espoused. There can be, you know, you're only pulled one direction. If anybody steps out of line they're trolled, they're run out of the business, they're fired. Their family is attacked. All those things happened to me or were attempted on me and my family. And so you end up with a culture that's very monolithic, very insular, tends to accept conspiracy theories, only gets pulled in the very radical extreme direction, and that's what you see now in the politics of the right and it all started with the politics of the NRA.

BROWN: You know, I've asked so many Republicans to come on the show to talk about guns and they won't, but I -- they will talk privately. And you know, I have heard from GOP lawmakers talking about their constituents who, as you pointed out, are very loud saying like the first thing on their mind in some of these places are, are they going to take away our guns in Washington?

I mean, that is the prevailing issue for some of these constituents of lawmakers. So what do you say to the opponents of gun reform who say, look, this is my right, protected by the Second Amendment, and that the federal government, if it puts in gun reform, it's a slippery slope that it's eventually going to lead to my guns being taken away?

BUSSE: Well, a couple of things. What you report from constituents is exactly why this issue is so difficult. Everybody thinks, you know, they hear things like background checks poll at 80 percent and red flag laws polled at 80 percent. Why can't we get those passed? It's because the politics of gun radicalization are the politics of the GOP now. They're woven through the DNA of the GOP.

So it looks like a little pebble that we ought to be above of the pickup and toss over but it's actually attached to this much larger boulder which is the DNA of the Republican Party. What I say to people who believe those sorts of things as no right exists without balancing responsibilities. And we have to balance those rights with responsibility. There's nothing anti-gun about being OK with background checks or being OK with red flag laws, or being OK without outlawing armed intimidation.

That's not anti-gun. That's just pro-responsibility. We don't live any other area of our life where we let one supposed freedom that's enumerated in the Constitution which the Second Amendment is, but we don't view any of those freedoms as absolute so that they will eventually undo our democracy. That's what I'm worried about with guns in America right now.

BROWN: Ryan Busse, thank you. Really interesting to hear your perspective given your background. We appreciate it.

BUSSE: Thank you.

BROWN: And his book "Gun Fight: My Battle Against the Industry that Radicalized America" is available now.

Well, some Republicans have railed against the investigation and the Capitol riot but others say those responsible need to be held accountable. We're going to take a closer look from the right and the left in our partisan politics segment, up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:27:29]

BROWN: January 6th Committee is set to hold live public hearings in primetime this Thursday. It is the culmination of nearly 1,000 interviews. The targeted Republican response to the hearings will be overseen by House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy and sources say GOP conference chair Elise Stefanik will help coordinate the party's messaging.

So to get us ready for the week ahead, I want to bring in Scott Jennings, a former special assistant to President George W. Bush, and Bakari Sellers, he's a former Democratic state representative from South Carolina. Great to see you, gentlemen. So I want to start with you, Bakari. What

do you think? Are these live hearings going to hold any significance or are they primarily for show?

BAKARI SELLERS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I think there's a line in between. I don't think that the question that are they for show or are they going to hold significance actually is the question that should be asked. The fact is that, yes, many people still care about the fact that many Republicans, many of the base Republican voters tried to overthrow the United States government. We had an insurrection in our United States Capitol.

That is a major issue but with inflation, with the fact that we've had these rash of mass shootings in the country, many Americans have their attention pointed elsewhere. And so I'm intrigued to see how these hearings captivate the attention of this country. It still matters to many people. The question is, how these hearings will captivate that attention.

BROWN: All right. I'm going to circle back with you on why I asked that question, but first, Scott, I want to go to you. Former Republican congressman Denver Riggleman spoke this morning to CNN about his relationship with your party. Let's take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: You were a Republican congressman.

RIGGLEMAN: Yes.

TAPPER: Do you still consider yourself a Republican?

RIGGLEMAN: I think the party left me some time ago. I don't. And I think that's something that I've, you know, I've had to grapple with even behind the scenes. What I have seen behind the scenes has even pushed me further away that the party has moved away from conservative principles to this cult of personality. It's absolutely stunning that cult of personality but also the belief systems that I don't think any real conservative could follow at any point. It's absolutely insane what people have sort of put their arms around.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: So it's things like "Stop the Steal" and the party of Trump that pushed him away. Are you worried about more conservatives following suit if these public hearings go sideways for Trump?

SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: You know, I think it depends on what the hearings say. I mean, candidly on this issue, we sort of all know what happened. I mean, I think they may fill in a few details here but there's not a ton of mystery in this and the person that's at the center of it is not denying any of it. I mean, Donald Trump sort of embraces this, right?

[19:30:00] I mean, he -- you know, he accepts that he doesn't believe the 2020

election was fairly conducted. He promotes that. He is not resisting, sort of the main theory or the main narrative here. So, I don't know if there's a lot of mystery left to solve.

Now, regarding the status of the party. If you look at the surveys, obviously, the Republicans are doing quite well as we head toward the midterm. Where I think this is most likely to manifest itself is in 2024. If Trump runs and if Trump becomes the nominee, then you'll have the same voters who were traditional Republicans who turned against him in 2020, well, they're going to have that same question to ask themselves in 2024.

But as it relates to the midterms, I think Bakari made a good point. There are a lot of other issues going on in the country that seem to have taken people's attention, and it doesn't appear to me that voters are holding Trump necessarily against rank and file Republicans for other offices.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: And we're going to get to some of those issues -- guns -- in just a moment. But first Bakari, I want to circle back with you, because there's a portion of Americans who are disillusioned with Democrats' efforts and view the January 6 investigation as an extension of the Russia probe and the two impeachment proceedings in their view to try to take down Donald Trump.

Do you think Democrats have lost credibility by overplaying their hands in the past?

BAKARI SELLERS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: To answer your question, clearly, the answer is no. I don't think that this investigation and these hearings have anything to do with Russia or the Russia probe or anything of the sort.

I mean, I think that Democrats played their hand appropriately then, they're playing their hand appropriately now, but it is vastly different. But I mean, I think that we can all agree that, you know, coming off of Buffalo, coming off of Texas, coming off of Philadelphia last night or even Clarendon County, South Carolina last night or even Tennessee either last night or the night before, please blame it on my heart, not on my head, or my head not my heart that I'm forgetting which mass shooting was which.

BROWN: In my own hometown, Lexington, Kentucky, yes.

SELLERS: So there is a lot going on right now for Americans to consume, and my only point about these hearings is that January 6th is more than an albatross around the necks of Republicans and anyone who is yelling Stop the Steal and the election was stolen, which are many Republican candidates running for United States Senate or running for Governor, all you have to do is look at Pennsylvania. That's a problem. And these elections or these hearings will show that.

There is much going on Pamela, and Scott knows this, too. It's going to be hard to crack through it. BROWN: All right, let's talk about guns a little bit more, because

Scott, there's a new CBS/YouGov poll showing broad bipartisan support for some gun control measures, 81 percent support background checks on all gun buyers, 72 percent support a Federal Red Flag Law, and 62 percent support a nationwide ban on AR-15s. Why do Republicans not support policies that so many Americans are for?

JENNINGS: Well, we'll see what ends up happening here. I have a suspicion that talks in the Senate in particular are pretty serious at this point. I don't think by the way, it's going to be solved this week. I know some people think this is the pivotal week. I do think it's going to take most of the June work period.

But it does seem to me that a lot of Republicans in the Senate are looking for something that is targeted and germane to the tragedies that we've seen recently. So I don't think you're going to see sweeping changes, but I do think it's conceivable that you could see things that are germane and targeted to what Republicans would think this would, if we do A., this would have prevented B. So, I think that's number one.

Number two, regarding the politics of it. I mean, obviously a lot of people represent constituencies that don't want any changes in our gun laws. I mean, that's certainly true in the House. Senate seats are different, obviously to represent a whole state.

But in congressional districts, the way these things are drawn these days, there is not a lot of appetite for changes inside the way the constituencies are warehoused. So I think that really explains that the politics of it.

But do I think there's room for some movement here? Yes. I do, actually.

BROWN: All right, targeted and germane. We'll have to see potentially what that looks like Scott Jennings, Bakari Sellers -- out of time. Thank you both.

JENNINGS: Thank you.

SELLERS: Thank you.

BROWN: Well, the President of the United States is known as the most powerful person in the world, but when it comes to solving domestic problems, the President can seem powerless. Is the problem the office or the office holder? We're going to discuss.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:38:56]

BROWN: It is the final day of the Platinum Jubilee, a celebration marking the 70th Anniversary of Queen Elizabeth's coronation. The Queen has not been able to attend every event due to some health concerns, but she appeared on the balcony of Buckingham Palace earlier today to watch the festivities. And she later thanked the British people in a statement saying: "When

it comes to how to mark 70 years as your Queen, there was no guidebook to follow. It really is a first, but I have been humbled and deeply touched that so many people have taken to the streets to celebrate my Platinum Jubilee."

And celebrate they did --

[VIDEO CLIP PLAYS]

BROWN: For days, London streets have been alive with throngs of the Queen's supporters all leading up to today's finale.

CNN's Anna Stewart is there.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANNA STEWART, CNN REPORTER (voice over): The Great British street party is a longstanding tradition for marking Royal events, coronations, Royal weddings, and Jubilees.

Thousands took place across the U.K. Sunday in spite of the typically British weather. This one on a very aptly named street.

[19:40:10]

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And of course, Elizabeth Street and Queen Elizabeth has got to be down, really.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So we've come all this way to be at the street parties closest to Buckingham Palace.

STEWART (voice over): It's a party catering for all ages from military veterans to some much younger residents.

STEWART (on camera): How would you describe Mr. Punch for our international audience?

Oh.

STEWART (voice over): This mischievous puppet speaks mostly gibberish, but luckily has a translator.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He said he likes Jubilees because he gets lots of work.

STEWART (voice over): This street has some notable shops, including Hatter to the Royals, Philip Treacy, and they're all part of the celebrations.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I actually own the hair salon across the road. So, it is part of my neighborhood.

In Elizabeth Street, we've always had like a village-y atmosphere. So, I think it's come across really well.

STEWART (voice over): Above all, street parties are about uniting communities.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We've got egg mayo --

STEWART (voice over): It's a moment to break bread, or in this case, scones, cucumber sandwiches, meringues, and of course some bubbles.

STEWART (on camera): Cheers. Happy Platinum Jubilee.

STEWART (voice over): Anna Stewart, CNN from Elizabeth Street in London.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: So just how much power does the U.S. President have in a crisis? Is the presidency broken? That debate next on CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:46:03]

BROWN: Tonight, the Biden administration is facing crises on multiple fronts: Record inflation, record gas prices, a baby formula crisis, COVID, and now, a gun violence epidemic that just seems continuing to be spiraling out of control.

And amid all of this, the President's message seems to be getting more pessimistic about what he could actually do.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The idea we're going to be able to click a switch to bring down the cost of gasoline is not likely in the near term, nor is it with regard to food.

We did everything in our power from that point on and that's all I can tell you right now.

QUESTION: What more can you do on guns via executive action?

BIDEN: Not much on executive action.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: It's easy to question the wisdom of the President making such admission. CNN's Stephen Collinson writes, quote: "Biden is bolstering perceptions that his crisis submerged presidency is beleaguered. His frankness offers no comfort to Americans looking for answers."

But in tonight's debate, we want to explore a different question. Does the President have a point? Are President Biden's struggles actually a sign of a problem with the office of the presidency itself?

My next guests have had this argument before, Ryan Lizza wrote about what he called, quote, "The Powerless Presidency" during the Obama administration, and Matt Lewis responded with an article with his own arguing quote, "The Presidency is not Powerless (And Ryan Lizza is wrong to claim it is.)"

And they both join me now, Ryan and Matt, good to see you both.

RYAN LIZZA, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: It's the ghost columnists off.

MATT LEWIS, SENIOR COLUMNIST, "THE DAILY BEAST": Good to be here.

BROWN: I know, we're just like rehashing old beef that you guys had. No, I'm kidding. I know that you have mutual respect for each other, different viewpoints, though, on this issue.

So Ryan, you stand by what you said back then. What do you think? You know, attributing the President's self-possessed inability to completely fix these problems to the limitations of the office rather than the President himself?

LIZZA: Well, sorry about that.

BROWN: So typical, right?

LIZZA: Look -- I know. I think that the President -- most Presidents suffer from one big problem, and that is expectations. They campaign on things that they know, they often won't get done. And they realize in office, that the presidency is not as powerful as sometimes in popular culture, and even in, you know, in Washington debates, as people think it is, and they let people down.

And so it's not the worst thing in the world for a President to be frank about the limits of his power.

Remember, the President is co-equal with Congress, unless the President has big partisan majorities in Congress, Presidents don't get much done, right?

Even with towering Presidents in history, it's really all about Congress. Remember, think of LBJ, who we think of as this great President who twisted arms and, you know, convinced the other side to do all his work for his legislation. Well, not really. He had massive Democratic majorities, and then when he lost those majorities, he couldn't get anything done.

So I don't think there's anything wrong with President Biden being honest about that kind of structural role of the presidency or structural nature of the presidency's powers.

BROWN: What do you think, Matt? Do you disagree?

LEWIS: I do disagree. Look, every President gets dealt a hand that they have to play, average Presidents and most Presidents are average and average Presidents let circumstances define their presidency. But effective Presidents are able to drive the agenda, and when something goes wrong, they are able to reinvent themselves and flip the script.

I'm thinking Ronald Reagan in '82, I'm thinking Bill Clinton in '94. The problem Joe Biden has, he has dug himself a hole, but I don't think he has the political or leadership abilities or communications savvy to extricate himself from that hole.

[19:50:18]

LEWIS: But the key point, I would just reiterate is, you know, Joe Biden is not a victim of circumstance. It was not inevitable that he would get in the problems he has gotten into. A lot of them were choices, and I still think that a President who had better skills would be able to extricate themselves and turn it around at this point.

BROWN: So I want to delve a little bit deeper into that, and go ahead, Ryan.

LIZZA: Well, I think this is problem you're going to ask anyway, Pam. But what are the skills that a President could have right now? Any President, any party, Republican, Democrat, Green, libertarian, independents, that could fix inflation, and convince 10 Republicans to pass the Democratic gun control agenda? I don't -- I don't know what those skills are. He's facing a structural problem on those two currently, two big issues. Same problem he had when Democrats tried to nationalize or codify Roe versus Wade, or when they tried to pass voting rights, or when he tried to pass the agenda he campaigned on, Build Back Better.

There is no magic wands to get votes from the other side, and there is no -- communication is very limited. One example, sorry for hogging up so much time, but one example, one of the senators today who is working on the gun rights legislation, Democratic senators today said they don't want Joe Biden to enter the debates in the Senate, because they know that will turn off Republicans.

So that's how hard it is in a polarized environment where the act of actually talking about the legislation and inserting yourself in the negotiation repels the same people you need to attract. So what is the fix for that that, Matt?

LEWIS: Well, first of all, this is the NFL, right? Not For Long is what it stands for. Joe Biden is a pro, the Republicans are pros. Every President, I'll grant you that we live in some very polarized days, but Presidents are used to opposition and the good Presidents are able to somehow rise above it, and succeed.

You know, you ask me how Joe Biden can fix the problem now? Well, first of all, he sowed -- you know, he laid the groundwork for his problems a year ago with the Afghanistan withdrawal, which I think was the beginning of the cratering of his popularity where he lost the political capital he might have had to impose his agenda.

I also think he just fundamentally misread his mandate, and if you look at a lot of these problems, including inflation that you mentioned, some of it, I will grant you is the product of supply chains or other things like that. But I think some of it is the product of his agenda and of misreading his mandate.

So at this point, I agree, it would be hard to dig himself out of this hole. I think the first step though, is to do something big and bold, and maybe just symbolic. Fire Klain, his Chief of Staff, he needs to send a message.

If you're in the NFL and your team loses, you know, you're trying to be the Dallas Cowboys, and every season you lose, the first thing you should do is fire your coach because you can't fire yourself if you're the owner, you fire the coach, it sends a signal that we're going to change the culture, we're going to change the organization.

Biden is letting things happen to him. He doesn't have to. He can seize control of his own White House.

BROWN: So what do you think about that, Ryan? I know you've got some thoughts on this proposition for Matt to fire his Chief of Staff to cause a shake up?

LIZZA: Well, I mean, my question to Matt was, you know, Matt and I are old friends, but my question to Matt was, how would that -- how could he personally fix inflation? He can't. Right?

So I think being honest about that is not a bad thing. We want our Presidents to be honest. And firing Ron Klain, I promise you is not going to fix the inflation problem. Firing Ron Klain is not going to get 10 Republican votes in the Senate for gun legislation.

You know, the President is not all powerful. He doesn't have the votes for a lot of his agenda in Congress, and on the big issue that Americans care about inflation matters, right? The ARP, most economists will say contributed to inflation. We probably would have had serious inflation anyway, but the ARP does seem like it contributed increased inflation.

At this point though, he doesn't have any control over that issue especially in the months before the midterms. The best thing that Presidents can do, if they want to get a lot of stuff done is make sure they have 60 votes in the Senate and a majority in the House.

[19:55:18]

BROWN: All right, 15 seconds, Matt, because we've got to wrap up.

LEWIS: Well, let's see where to go. Look, I think that every time a Democrat, because in the White House, we have this discussion. When Jimmy Carter was President, we said or talking head said, the job is just too big for one person.

The last time Ryan and I had this fight, Barack Obama was President, and here we are, again. I think that actually the buck stops there. Presidents actually do matter and I think it's a cop out for us to say that, well, what are you going to do? You've got to have 60 votes.

No, you know, their job is to get things done.

LIZZA: You don't get to be President and --

BROWN: All right, I'll let you guys call each other. I know by the way, Matt that was --

LEWIS: Neither team would let me win.

BROWN: I appreciate the NFL analogy. I'm going to let you guys discuss this offline. I know that Matt, you called Ryan initially just to throw him off his game. So, I'll let you to actually have that conversation.

LIZZA: That was son, Aiden, and Aiden, if you're watching, I am going to call you back right now. Let's have this debate again in 11 years.

LEWIS: Lizza is done and Lizza's go back to --

BROWN: Settling the score? Yes, in 11 years, we'll see you again.

All right, Ryan Lizza and Matt Lewis, thank you both.

We'll be right back.

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