Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Bipartisan Gun Talks; Uvalde Mayor's Frustrated by Lack of Transparency; Jimmy Perdue is Interviewed about the Gun Violence; House Gets More Emails from Eastman; Michael Fanone is Interviewed about January 6th and the Committee Hearing. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired June 08, 2022 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:00:21]

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Top of the hour. Good morning, everyone, I'm Poppy Harlow.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Jim Sciutto.

In the next hour we are likely to see a moving, probably even quite sad hearing on gun violence on Capitol Hill. Parents of victims from the Buffalo and Uvalde mass shootings, as well as an 11-year-old survivor from Robb Elementary School, they're going to testify before the House Oversight Committee.

In just the last 24 hours, we have heard from a teacher who lost all 11 children in his class, a son whose mother was killed while shopping for groceries in Buffalo.

And, actor Matthew McConaughey, who's from Uvalde, appealing to Congress from the White House Briefing Room to take action on guns. His wife held a replica of the green Converse sneakers that were the only thing that helped identify a nine-year-old girl shot and killed in Uvalde. That's the power of the weapon used there.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEW MCCONAUGHEY, ACTOR: Maite wanted to be a marine biologist. Maite wore green high-top Converse with a heart she had hand drawn on the right toe because they represented her love of nature.

These are the same green Converse on her feet that turned out to be the only clear evidence that could identify her at the shooting.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Wow.

Now lawmakers will also hear what is expected to be gripping and painful testimony from 11-year-old Maite Rasaos (ph), the fourth grader who suffered the mass shooting at Robb Elementary by covering herself - remember, this is the girl who covered herself in her friend's blood and pretended to be dead. So, you'll see that hearing live right here in just an hour. And the bipartisan talks in the Senate continue on gun policy. CNN has

learned that Republican Leader Mitch McConnell has privately expressed openness for raising the age to 21 for buying semi-automatic rifles, but has not yet said that publicly. And we'll see, it's very highly unlikely, that that would be the part of any agreement, if there is one.

So where do things stand on Capitol Hill? Let's bring in our congressional correspondent Lauren Fox.

Lauren, you've learned a lot about what could be included if they can get this over the finish line.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HARLOW: What's in? What's not?

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, raising the age that someone can go into a gun store and purchase a semi-automatic rifle, like an AR-15, that is not on the table, despite that openness that we are reporting from Mitch McConnell behind the scenes.

The reason for that is there is not widespread Republican support. Instead, what they are talking about is much narrower sets of provisions, including one that would make sure that juvenile records were part of the background check process when someone between the ages of 18 and 21 goes in to buy a gun like an AR-15. We know now, of course, that that is the age group that a lot of lawmakers say are responsible for some of these mass shootings in recent weeks and they want to make sure that those juvenile records are accessible. That's going to be tricky because states have a patchwork of different laws. They are trying to understand how to do that right now. That is one of the key things they're working through.

They're also looking at mental health funding, about $7 billion for that, as well as school safety measures, mostly for elementary and middle schools because as Thom Tillis, the Republican who's part of these negotiations told me yesterday, after Columbine, a lot of high schools already hardened their campuses. The focus is going to be on those elementary schools and middle schools which they view as softer targets.

So, that's the contours of what they're discussing. And, again, that's pretty narrow.

They are also talking about red flag laws, incentivizing states to pass more of those. But, again, that's a heavy lift because some Republicans don't want to do anything, even incentivize states, to pass laws that they say could take away due process of people who have guns.

SCIUTTO: It is 11-year-old Miah Cerrillo, the Uvalde shooting survivor, who will be testifying today on The Hill, the youngest of those witnesses, which, listen, I'm sure is going to be heartbreaking to hear from her, what she had to do to survive this.

Tell us about who else we're expected to hear from today.

FOX: Yes, I mean, that testimony, obviously, from a fourth grader, that is going to be so important to discussing -- for these discussions on Capitol Hill. And I'll tell you, Jim, that she is going to be testifying, according to a source on the committee I'm talking to, via video. But, again, her story, we have heard from our own reporting at CNN that she literally had to cover herself in her friend's blood and play dead in order to try and survive that shooting in Uvalde, Texas, at her elementary school.

[09:05:13]

We're also going to hear from the mother of a victim at that Buffalo supermarket shooting, as well as parents of another victim who died at the Uvalde elementary school shooting. So those testimonies are going to really put a human face to the toll of gun violence.

And the hope, I think, from lawmakers up here on Capitol Hill is it will be a change agent. Perhaps hearing from a fourth grader changes the minds of people who have been unmovable on this issue of gun control in the past.

Jim and Poppy.

SCIUTTO: Listen, we saw how hard it was for an adult teacher to describe what he witnessed there and the loses he experienced yesterday in that ABC interview. Imagine - imagine that for an 11- year-old having to describe what she went through.

Lauren Fox, thanks so much.

HARLOW: Thank you, Lauren.

In Uvalde, Texas, as the wait continues for more details on the investigation into the response at Robb Elementary, the city's mayor says he is frustrated by law enforcement's lack of transparency and that he has not been briefed since the shooting two weeks ago. That is hard to believe, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Yes, why the lack of transparency?

HARLOW: Yes.

SCIUTTO: CNN's Omar Jimenez, he's in Uvalde.

Omar, tell us what the latest findings are from the investigation into the police response.

OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Jim and Poppy.

Well, for starters, the Uvalde country district attorney had said it's going to be a while, to use her words, before she get the reports from the Texas Department of Public Safety and the FBI. So, in the meantime, families, members of the community are left either searching or waiting for answers. The mayor, Don McLaughlin, says he's one of them as he announced that the city requested a Department of Justice review into the investigation of the response at Robb Elementary School. That announcement to come today, he says.

As he also admitted there were missteps in the initial release of information, as we now know. But to use his words, we were told one thing one day, then the next day the story and narrative changed. It's been a difficult dynamic to deal with as families continue to bury their children.

Matthew McConaughey, who's from here in Uvalde, was out here last week visiting the memorial at Robb Elementary, but this week he was in Washington, D.C., at the White House, after he says he and his wife met with the families of those killed.

And take a listen to some of what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEW MCCONAUGHEY, ACTOR: You know what every one of these parents wanted what they asked us for, what every parent separately expressed in their own way to Camila and me? That they want their children's dreams to live on.

We need background checks. We need to raise the minimum age to purchase an AR-15 rifle to 21. We need a waiting period for those rifles. We need red flag laws and consequences for those who abuse them. These are reasonable, practical, tactical regulations.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JIMENEZ: And that, of course, becomes a question, what comes next, what changes from this? As McConaughey also went on to say, we are in a crucial window of time, which feels again like deja vu. Those crucial windows of time seem to always come and go in the wake of many of these shootings.

But the teacher, one of the teachers who survived this shooting, Arnulfo Reyes, says he is going to go to the ends of the world to make sure his students did not die in vain. He wants to see things change.

And, of course, we are waiting testimony from that fourth grader at Robb Elementary, Miah Cerrillo, who survived, but also the parents of 10-year-old Lexi Rubio who was killed in this shooting. And there are also a number of legal efforts from those directly affected here to at least begin a path toward some form of accountability.

Jim.

Poppy.

HARLOW: Omar Jimenez, thank you very much for your reporting on the ground.

Jim.

SCIUTTO: Joining me now to discuss, Chief Jimmy Perdue of the North Richland Hills Police Department in Texas. He's also president of the Texas Police Chiefs Association. Officer, good to have you on this morning.

CHIEF JIMMY PERDUE, PRESIDENT, TEXAS POLICE CHIEFS ASSOCIATION: Thank you, Jim. Good morning.

SCIUTTO: First, I want to get your perspective as someone with years in law enforcement in the state of Texas. There were more than 4,000 gun deaths in Texas in 2020. That's up from just under 2,500 in 2005 when you became police chief there.

From your perspective, why? Why the increase in gun violence?

PERDUE: Well, I think you've seen a proliferation of guns all throughout the entire country and the ability for people and the willingness for people to use them more frequently and more willingly. It's more than just access. It's more of a culture issue across the country and the availability of weapons. And also just the devaluation of (INAUDIBLE) in general I believe has called people to be more willing to use those weapons in those areas and we've seen it go across the country from coast to coast.

[09:10:09]

It's not just endemic in one particular area.

SCIUTTO: No question. I've heard it from law enforcement from New York City, to the middle of the country, to the West Coast.

Ok, let's talk about then, from your perspective, what changes would make a difference? As you describe there, there are multiple causes here. There's no one solution, no one law, no one measure, no one sort of allocation of money from Washington that's going to solve this problem. But are there particular changes that you think would move the dial here among age limits, say, or background checks expansion? Tell us what you think.

PERDUE: Well, I've been, you know, previously quoted as saying, and stand by my position, that I believe that there must be some measures done in order to make it more difficult for certain groups of people to be able to have access to weapons. I don't for one minute think that any change that is being proposed is going to universally stop weapons or the access to weapons or even the violence across the country.

But I think that we must make - must take measured steps in order to try to cut back on the violence that we can. If that means raising the age from 18 to 21 for AR, I think that is a good first measure. If we - if there are particular background checks that we can assure the due process is put in place and put those in place to prevent someone from getting access, we can do that.

But, again, we must draw a distinction between the sort of violence that's going on, whether that be a shooter that happened in Uvalde or Buffalo, and those that occur every day in the streets across America.

SCIUTTO: Yes. PERDUE: The laws that we're talking about now is not going to have a dramatic impact on those other violences. There are other procedures that need to happen and we've got to look at it more from a global standpoint, a societal issue, if you will. But we do need to do something in order to help the situation that we're dealing with right now in Uvalde.

SCIUTTO: The trouble is, on Capitol Hill at least, the reaction to the point you just made there, that this is a complicated problem with multiple solutions, if we as a country are going to get at it, the response you'll often hear on Capitol Hill is, no one thing is going to change this, therefore we do nothing, right? I mean we saw that after Sandy Hook. We saw that after Parkland. We saw that after El Paso and Dayton.

Republicans often run saying they back people in uniform, like yourself. But then when we hear from people like yourself who say, listen, we do have to take some steps here, I wonder if you think there's a contradiction there.

PERDUE: No, I don't think it's inconsistent, the fact that the legislatures on both sides of the aisle have shown support for law enforcement, some certainly more than others, and certainly the last two years have been very difficult on law enforcement across the country. And some of that has come from our legislature and some just from society in general and some basically from our own missteps that we've taken as a police culture.

But we must accept the fact that we need to do something. But I will - there's a quote that came out of a local representative who said that doing nothing is not acceptable -- but just doing something is not acceptable, we must do the right thing. And the only way we can do the right thing is by having a good discussion, open discussion, throw all topics on the table, be serious about considering them, and then look for those things where we can make incremental changes. It's not going to be one and done. We've got to make sure we do incremental changes. And most law enforcement professionals I talk to understand that we have got to make some measured approaches in order to get our hand on the gun violence that's going on.

SCIUTTO: Chief Perdue, before we go, I know that you sent officers to assist the Uvalde Police Department as they go through the repercussions of this. There are a number of officers on administrative leave, others who are in therapy themselves for what they witnessed there.

Tell us what you've heard from your officers who are volunteering there now. How is Uvalde dealing with this, reeling now?

PERDUE: Jim, as you can imagine, the community is in tremendous amount of pain. I had the opportunity to go down there and visit with everyone last week and saw a community that is coming together, that is banning together to try to support each other. But I also saw a community that is in tremendous pain. They are hurting all across - it's a small community. They all know each other. They all share relations with each other. And so it is very difficult in order to talk to people.

But I will say this, that my officers that are down there, they are glad to be there to be able to help the citizens of Uvalde and the Uvalde Police Department. My officers said that every single person that they encountered there in the community, they fed them, they gave them clothes - they gave them drinks, they gave them whatever they could in order to make their stay that much better because they appreciated the fact that they were willing to step into the void, so to speak, because the Uvalde Police Department is dealing with a tragedy and they've got to take time to grieve as well.

So, we were honored as the Texas Police Chiefs Association, to kind of coordinate those efforts and send officers down there to help go through that process.

SCIUTTO: Chief Jimmy Perdue, thank you for your straight talk and thanks for the service you're doing there.

[09:15:04]

PERDUE: Thank you, sir.

SCIUTTO: Coming up next, new details about who will testify at the upcoming January 6th hearings. Former D.C. Police Officer Michael Fanone, he's going to join us. He, you may remember, was brutally attacked that day. And he's going to share what he is hoping to hear from those witnesses.

HARLOW: Also, new this morning, the FBI is facing a lawsuit for how it handled its investigation into former USA Gymnastics Dr. Larry Nassar. And Simone Biles is one of dozens of his abused survivors asking for millions in damages.

And later, our conversation with Dwyane Wade. The former NBA star speaks out on gun violence and has a clear message for lawmakers.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:20:03]

HARLOW: All right, new this morning, it turns out the January 6th committee will get access to 159 emails from attorney John Eastman, largely related to his efforts and really his plan to try to block the 2020 election results on behalf of former President Trump.

SCIUTTO: This as we're learning about two potential new witnesses, former Acting Attorney General Jeffrey Rosen, and his then deputy, Richard Donoghue, they've been invited to testify publicly. Their experience here certainly material to those final days.

CNN's Melanie Zanona is on Capitol Hill.

So, Melanie, a judge has the House set to get Eastman's emails by tonight. What's the significance?

MELANIE ZANONA, CNN CAPITOL HILL REPORTER: Well, this is another victory for the select committee. They have already received hundreds of emails from Eastman, a right-wing lawyer who was working with Trump and his allies to overturn the 2020 election, but in this particular case the judge determined that at least one of the emails could show evidence that a crime was being planned.

Now, this all is coming on the eve of the select committee's first hearing where they're expected to lay out their findings. Eastman is expected to play a key role in their storytelling. But, tomorrow's hearing is going to largely be focused on the Proud Boys and showing how the deadly attack on the Capitol was premeditated.

So, the hearing witnesses tomorrow include two people who directly interacted with the Proud Boys on January 6th, a documentary filmmaker and a Capitol Police officer who was on the front lines.

Now, the challenge, of course, is getting the American people to care and to pay attention and to understand the gravity of what happened that day and just how close it came when it comes to our democracy. And, meanwhile, Republicans are going to be working at every turn to undermine them. They have already launched a counterattack at the direction of Trump with an official Republican response expected tomorrow.

Jim. Poppy.

HARLOW: Melanie, thank you for that reporting. It is a significant development.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HARLOW: Let's talk about it with CNN law enforcement analyst and former D.C. Metropolitan Police Officer Michael Fanone.

Good morning, Michael.

I would be remiss not to remind people of your experience that day among what you testified before this committee that you experienced is torture, you said they beat me, I was struck with a Taser at the base of my skull several times. You had to yell out, I have kids, right? I mean you are lucky to be alive. And I wonder if you think these hearings will move the needle.

MICHAEL FANONE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT: Well, I appreciate that. I'd be remiss if I didn't point out the fact that over 140 police officers were injured that day. Hundreds responded to the Capitol and fought to preserve democracy, not just myself.

I mean, obviously, I expect the select committee to conduct a thorough investigation into the events surrounding the insurrection at the Capitol. But most of all I expect that their findings would be made available to the American people. I mean I'm happy to hear that they're having public hearings. But I'm disappointed - well, really I'm outraged to hear that some networks are declining to air the hearings, just as they did when I testified last year.

You know, it's an opportunity for Americans to decide for themselves, to listen to the committee's findings, but, more importantly, to listen to the witnesses. Their testimony is what I want to hear.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

You know, there's a blindness to this, as you described there. And some will not air this. But there's also been a deliberate disinformation campaign going right up to the former president, who now calls this the insurrection hoax.

You have spoken to a lot of folks in the right wing. You've told them your story. You've spoken to Republican senators about this as well.

When you, as an officer, tell them what you experienced - and, by the way, there's video to back it up, as we've shown -- how do they react?

FANONE: I mean, there are some that are completely indifferent. Their reaction was unemotional. And then there are some who I think have feigned emotion for the optics of the moment. And then there is others that I think truly are disturbed by what happened that day as we saw in the immediate aftermath. There are some pretty impassioned speeches (INAUDIBLE) the president at the time. And, you know, unfortunately, they've all reversed course because they've placed their political futures and the future of their party above our democracy.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HARLOW: I know that because of what you've experienced in the wake of what you and your fellow officers went through can be disheartening and you can look at the division, and as Jim rightly points out, all of this disinformation and you can feel like nothing will change.

[09:25:11]

But I do wonder if you do have some hope? There are Republicans on this committee, not a lot but two. And I wonder if you - you have some hope that this could be a moment where the world sees this evidence on display and comes to some sort of agreement on a common set of facts about what happened.

FANONE: I mean, I don't want to say I have no hope, but I think that the people that need to see the reality of that day are not going to be exposed to it, unfortunately. And that's just, you know, that's real. They're not going to have an opportunity - you know, we talk a lot about the spread of misinformation and disinformation, how destructive that's been on our community, but what about when we prevent or deny access to information? I mean that's just as destructive, if not more. And it happens on both sides of the political aisle, but, you know, this is - this is outrageous. It really is.

SCIUTTO: Yes. It gets to the causes of that blindness, doesn't it?

Michael Fanone, we appreciate you coming on. We're sorry what you had to go through on that day, but thanks for - thank for joining us this morning.

FANONE: Thank you. SCIUTTO: Still ahead this hour, California Democrats send a message to

the party on progressive politics. The issues sending voters to the polls showing up in the results we're tracking.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The homelessness. Like every block we go on there's homelessness.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: More policing I think is important.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: And we are moments away from the opening bell on Wall Street. U.S. futures are down for a second day in a row despite markets rebounding, closing higher yesterday. The lower forecast comes as bond yields remain high. Energy stocks are surging. Oil futures have now passed $120 a barrel. Investors are also bracing for Friday's inflation gauge as the consumer price data for May will come out.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:30:00]