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Interview With Rep. Debbie Dingell (D-MI); January 6 Committee Set For Public Hearing; D.C. Facing Security Threats. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired June 09, 2022 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00]

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Alisyn Camerota. Welcome to CNN NEWSROOM.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: I'm Victor Blackwell. Good to be with you.

We are now just hours away from the start of historic hearings on Capitol Hill. The House committee investigating the January 6 attack will hold a prime-time session tonight at 8:00 p.m.; 11 months of investigation, close to 1,000 interviews and more than 14,000 pages of documents culminate in tonight's presentation.

And the violent images from that day still are shocking to watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They're starting a fight with him. Hell, yes, get on the ground.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Committee members are promising never-before-seen footage and testimony. In fact, they say the vast majority of the video that will be shown has not yet been seen publicly.

The House panel will try to show Americans that former President Trump was not a bystander, but was at the center of the uprising to overturn the election and the votes of 81 million people who chose President Biden.

So let's begin the hour with CNN congressional correspondent Ryan Nobles.

So, Ryan, have they told us what this new video and testimony will be?

RYAN NOBLES, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Not specifically, Alisyn, but we do have a good idea as to where it is headed.

We are told that this is going to be new angles of some of the violence and chaos that took place on that day from a unique perspective, a perspective that could come from a documentarian that was actually embedded with the Proud Boys right-wing militia group on that day.

There's also going to be taped interviews and clips of these taped interviews of these depositions that took place behind closed doors with members of the Trump administration and the Trump family itself. They're probably just going to be short clips, somewhat of a tease to what could come later on in the hearings. But we do expect to hear some tonight.

And also there will be live witness testimony from two individuals that interacted with the Proud Boys on that day. One of them is that documentarian Nick Quested who provided some of the new video we will see tonight. He was embedded with the Proud Boys in the week leading up to January 6 and on the day itself.

The committee considers him a firsthand fact witness because he was a fly on the wall for some of their plans. And then Caroline Edwards, who was a Capitol Police officer. She's still a Capitol Police officer, but had an altercation with the Proud Boys on that day. And she's still dealing with the effects of it a year-and-a-half later.

Now, this is all part of a stage-setting performance by the committee tonight. What they want to do is show that what happened here on January 6 wasn't just an organic outgrowth of some protesters that got a little bit out of control. They believe it was premeditated.

Listen to what Congresswoman Elaine Luria of Virginia, a member of the committee, said this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. ELAINE LURIA (D-VA): It wasn't just about that day. It wasn't just about that violence. It was about all the things that led up to it. It was about all of those forces and factors that led to a point where violence was the tool that was used to influence the government.

And I think that we really need to understand what continues today, the threat that still exists moving forward. And I know that our hearings over the next few weeks will really lay that all out for the American public.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOBLES: So what the congresswoman said there is very important.

There's obviously been a no enormous focus on what happened actually on January 6. But what the committee believes is that the seeds for that day were planted on Election Day in 2020 and they grew from between the election and to January 6, culminating in what we saw here on that day.

They will lay out that thesis in the hearing tonight. And they will then build the case in a series of hearings down the road -- Victor and Alisyn.

BLACKWELL: So, Ryan, what do you know about those subsequent hearings that are coming over the next several weeks? NOBLES: Well, we do expect that the committee will focus on

individual topics on some of these hearing dates as we move forward.

They have already scheduled two hearings for next week. They will be during the day, not prime-time hearings. And we also anticipate that one of the areas of focus ultimately will be that gap of time of where the former president did not seem to be engaged in what was happening here on January 6, a lack of information on the White House call logs, and just the lack of any information or communication from the president during that period of time.

And we will also expect to see in a bit more specificity some of these behind-closed-doors taped interviews with some of the members of the Trump family that have actually sat down for lengthy interviews with the committee. That includes the former president's son Donald Trump, Jr., his fiancee, Kimberly Guilfoyle, also his daughter Ivanka Trump and her husband, the president's son-in-law and close adviser, Jared Kushner.

They all came in willingly. Kimberly Guilfoyle was subpoenaed, but they did cooperate with the committee. We expect to see at least some of this witness testimony, maybe some tonight, and much more in the days ahead, as the committee continues these hearings throughout the month of June -- Victor and Alisyn.

[14:05:01]

CAMEROTA: OK, Ryan Nobles, thank you for previewing it for us.

So, tonight's presentation will be a made-for-TV event, but how do lawmakers know how to produce a prime-time TV program?

Joining us now is CNN chief media correspondent Brian Stelter.

Brian, how are they doing this?

BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: Well, this has to be the opposite of a usual congressional hearing, because, even on C- SPAN, those can put people to sleep.

You think about the typical congressional hearing where lawmakers are up there giving their own speeches, just wanting to have their own voices heard, not actually trying to get information to the public. This has to be the opposite. And one of the ways this will be judged is whether it is the opposite of a usual congressional hearing.

But we know that they are doing several things differently, as Ryan mentioned, using video clips, bringing in evidence on video, and also enlisting James Goldston, a former head of ABC News, to help advise the hearing members on how to produce this and make this an effective show, so to speak.

It is highly unusual for all of the major networks to agree to carry a congressional hearing in prime time. Of course, this will be live on CNN and on MSNBC, but also on NBC, ABC, CBS, other local stations, and broadcast areas may decide to carry this. This will be seen almost everywhere, except, of course, for the right- wing media bubble, FOX News notably saying it will not carry the hearings in full.

Here's a part of the statement, saying that FOX's prime-time shows will cover the hearings -- quote -- "as news warrants." Those are weasel words, because, of course, the entire hearing is a news event. It is a major news event. But FOX is instead going to air Tucker Carlson's usual 8:00 p.m. show.

Carlson of course, is a 1/6 denier. He promotes conspiracy theories about 1/6. So as much as the prime-time coverage will matter, and folks who might otherwise not watch the news at night will tune in tonight, it's important to recognize there's an entire universe of media that exists to oppose this committee, to oppose finding out the truth.

And whether any of tonight's news breaks through, I think it's a very open question.

BLACKWELL: Yes. And to that point, although FOX won't carry the hearing tonight, they certainly took the prebuttal today from House Republicans live.

(LAUGHTER)

STELTER: Yes, absolutely.

And in some ways, you can think about FOX's program as a 20 -- the channel as a 24/7 prebuttal, telling a different version of events about January 6, emphasizing other stories as well.

Now, the network says, we're going to cover it later in the day, we're going to cover it on other channels. But the reality is, the big lie was perpetuated and promoted on FOX and other right-wing channels. And now the cleanup, the attempt to get to the truth about 1/6 will be minimized by FOX and others.

Notably, Newsmax, which is another right-wing outlet, they came out today and said, hey, we are going to show this, because we want to show our viewers if there's partisan bias among the lawmakers.

So, very much a moment of two American media bubbles here. But I think it's important to say the average American who doesn't care that much about politics, who doesn't watch the news every night, they might actually tune in and see this in a new way, right, because if you're a more casual news consumer that hasn't been paying attention to the daily details that have dribbled out for months, you may tune in tonight and in the coming days and find out a lot of new developments you were not aware of.

And that may be why these hearings matter. It's a convening moment for the country. And it may matter for that reason.

CAMEROTA: Yes. Well, I mean, obviously, they matter for history. But I take your point that it's one-stop shopping. STELTER: Yes. Yes.

CAMEROTA: And that is much -- that's helpful, rather than having to watch every single day the little pieces.

STELTER: Yes.

CAMEROTA: But what you're saying, I think, is that the news networks will be covering it.

STELTER: The news networks will be covering it.

And the entertainment channels that promote Trump's agenda will not.

CAMEROTA: Thank you.

BLACKWELL: Brian Stelter, thank you very much.

All right, now, former Ambassador Norm Eisen served as special counsel to the House Judiciary Committee for Donald Trump's first impeachment trial. Terrance Gainer is a CNN law enforcement analyst and was a U.S. Capitol Police chief, as well as Senate sergeant at arms. And Sophia Nelson is contributing editor for The Grio and has served as counsel for a House Republican investigative committee. They're all with us.

Welcome.

Norm, I'm going to start with you and your op-ed that you co-wrote for -- published in "The New York Times," where you said that the future of democracy will depend on the committee's achievement of their objectives over the course of these hearings.

Frame the stakes for us.

NORM EISEN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Thanks, Victor, Alisyn, for having me back.

The stakes are enormous because, as we heard from the member of Congress, this is not just about what happened on January 6. It's about the long run-up and the aftermath. From coast to coast in the United States today, the same big lie that Donald Trump won the election -- he didn't -- that same big light is driving hundreds of election-denying candidates and bills from coast to coast.

And we have people who've made it through the primary process for governor, attorney general, secretary of state. And, as I wrote in "The Times," these hearings need to not only tell the truth -- that's first and foremost -- but they must set up the midterms as a nonpartisan referendum on our democracy to reject these kinds of candidates and bills.

[14:10:02]

And they must set up criminal prosecutions, so those ultimately responsible, including the president himself, former president, if warranted by the evidence, are held accountable, all so it doesn't happen again.

CAMEROTA: Chief Gainer, one of the most shocking things that day, among so many shocking things, was the violence against police officers.

And we now know that I think 90 people have been charged since then with either using a weapon or causing serious injury to an officer. And I have always been surprised by how many Republicans seem dismissive of that. And, tonight, I assume we will see those scenes again.

TERRANCE GAINER, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Yes, I think the committee is going to lay out a powerful story of the evidence they collected and the -- analyzing that and then communicating that, the same way you would if you're appearing to -- in a grand jury, or if you're sitting in a trial.

So maybe the best thing the public can do now is really pay attention and listen to all the facts and draw some conclusions. But tonight just starts that sort of over a period of time.

Remember, Alisyn, this is a complicated matter, that, as your speakers have already indicated, go over several days, before the incident, on the insert, the day of the incident, and then probably the cover-up that's been going on since then.

So you have to piece all those pieces of evidence together and let the truth come out and people make a determination about it.

BLACKWELL: Sophia, there are several audiences for what is going to be presented tonight, the American people, also the Department of Justice as well, maybe local and state prosecutors.

How will you determine if they are checking off the boxes, if they are meeting those measures of success to speak to those separate audiences?

SOPHIA NELSON, FORMER HOUSE GOP INVESTIGATIVE COUNSEL: Well, that's a great question, Victor.

As someone who worked on a congressional investigative committee during the Clinton years, and they were televised, it is a production and they do have to speak to different audiences. I think the challenge for me and for those of us who are in the punditry class in Washington, in terms of checking off boxes is, a good swathe of the country that really needs to see these hearings -- it was alluded to earlier that FOX and other conservative sites and news outlets are not going to cover it -- is problematic.

Because it's kind of like it's converting the choir. You know what I mean? Most of us, I think, who paid attention are already kind of converted on this, that we know that that January 6 was horrific. It was an attack. It was a soft coup attempt, if not a hard coup attempt to overturn an election. And the goal for the committee is to get the greater part of the

country, if you can get them to watch, most importantly, and then to keep their attention, as was alluded to earlier, to convince them that something really dangerous happened on January 6, and it's something worthy of hearings, and it's something worthy of action.

And I, frankly, am just concerned because, again, a good segment of this country will not see these hearings, and they really need to see these hearings, because they're getting bits and pieces of reality and what is news and what isn't and facts and what aren't facts.

And that's the biggest challenge I think the committee has to overcome, which is being able to get the country galvanized. Like, in Watergate, I don't think anybody disagreed that Nixon had done something really bad, and that it needed to be addressed.

Republicans on the committee voted to impeach him, as you know. That would never happen today, because we're too partisan. And that's the problem.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

So there's going to be new video, as we say, shown tonight. Some of it's going to come from a documentarian who was embedded with the Proud Boys that night -- that day, on January 6, while it was happening. ABC has obtained a portion of this video. We have now seen and have an excerpt of it. So here it is for everyone.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am not allowed to say what's going to happen today, because everyone's just going to have to watch for themselves. But it's going to happen. Something's going to happen, one way or the other.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: So, Norm, I mean, basically, what she's saying is, I'm not allowed to say what's going to happen, but something big is going to happen, and everybody's going to have to watch.

Legally, what do you make of that?

EISEN: Premeditation.

One of the themes that we know the committee is going to pursue is, this is not just about January 6. There was a lot of planning that went into it. The former president escalated his attacks. And there was a call and response, Alisyn, where he was speaking to these militias, speaking to these violent actors, of course, his tweets, and they were responding.

January 6 was the culmination. And, as we say, it didn't end on January 6, because that big lie is still running through the country.

[14:15:05] So I think they're going to connect those dots, premeditation, advanced planning, and we will see. How express was the agreement, if any, between President Trump and these insurrectionists?

CAMEROTA: OK, Norm Einstein -- Eisen, Terry Gainer, and Sophia Nelson, thank you all very much for your expertise.

Be sure to join CNN's special coverage of the hearings. They start tonight at 7:00 p.m.

BLACKWELL: And it's not just tonight's hearings that have authorities on high alert. Several controversial, maybe divisive issues across the country are forcing officials to ramp up security.

CAMEROTA: It all adds up to the gun violence epidemic and the latest on the negotiations for gun safety -- next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:20:11]

BLACKWELL: The FBI raided the California home of the 26-year-old man charged with plotting to murder Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh.

He was arrested after calling emergency services and telling them that he had a gun.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

911 OPERATOR: Units be advised, a caller came to kill Supreme Court Justice Rex (sic) Kavanaugh, came from California, took a taxi from the airport to this location.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Well, federal officials are gearing up for more violence surrounding high-profile events and high-stakes Supreme Court decisions in the coming months.

CNN's Whitney Wild has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WHITNEY WILD, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A California man is in custody this morning after he told police he wanted to kill a Supreme Court justice and then kill himself, he said, to give his life purpose.

Upset over the leak of a draft ruling overturning Roe v. Wade, the mass shooting in Uvalde, Texas, and the possibility that the court could loosen gun laws, authorities say the man went to Justice Brett Kavanaugh's home with, gun zip ties, and other tools.

But after seeing two deputy U.S. Marshals outside, he called 911 on himself. MERRICK GARLAND, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL NOMINEE: This kind of behavior

is -- obviously is behavior that we will not tolerate. Threats of violence and actual violence against the justices, of course, strike at the heart of our democracy.

WILD: Attorney General Merrick Garland and law enforcement vowing to ramp up security in the nation's capital, as the January 6 hearings are set to begin tonight in prime time, and Washington gears up for potentially volatile June.

That's when major Supreme Court decisions, large-scale protests and more tours at the Capitol will converge in an already heightened threat environment.

TOM MANGER, U.S. CAPITOL POLICE CHIEF: There's I think, a lot of vitriol.

WILD: Capitol Police Chief Tom Manger is ramping up security while D.C. police are activating their riot cops throughout the month. These moves come as the Department of Homeland Security warns of the possibility of a violent summer and fall fueled by conspiracy theories and extremist ideologies.

PROTESTERS: No justice, no peace!

WILD: A major concern, the pending abortion ruling. Intelligence analysts warn of potential threats toward lawmakers, Supreme Court justices, abortion providers, and religious groups, the threats coming from both sides of the abortion debate.

MANGER: I am worried about the violence. I'm worried about the lone actor coming in and doing something dangerous.

PROTESTERS: We will not go back!

WILD: Protests related to abortion and gun laws could bring thousands of people to Washington just as the highly anticipated public hearings into the January 6 insurrection begin. And more visitors are expected to flow into the Capitol after a two year COVID-related closure.

Sources say Capitol Police are now adding overtime shifts.

MANGER: The focus is really on what -- the protests that are going on in court, the protests that are going on at the homes of the justices. I understand that the tension could very quickly turn to the Capitol.

WILD: That tension already surfacing on social media and captured by intelligence analysts from D.C.'s Homeland Security Agency.

CHRISTOPHER RODRIGUEZ, DIRECTOR, HOMELAND SECURITY AND EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT AGENCY: This is occurring almost on a daily basis, in terms of any types of threats. The posts that concern us the most are threats against individuals or specific places.

WILD: Intelligence analysts have flagged roughly a dozen threats as credible enough to be investigated further. RODRIGUEZ: We're seeing threats from all parts of the political spectrum.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WILD: Fending off this threat comes down to a manpower issue. Capitol Police say they are still hundreds of officers short from where they'd like to be, where they think they need to be to manage the work they need to do at the Capitol, plus this heightened threat environment.

They are doing everything they can to bring in new recruits. They're adding to the base pay, they're adding a retention bonus, and they're opening up the opportunity for federal officers at other agencies to lateral over and join their ranks. That's something that could happen quickly, because they wouldn't have to go back through that lengthy training that a new recruit does.

Meanwhile, on Capitol Hill, there is still this debate over what to do about Supreme Court security. On the Senate side, a bill that would expand the discretion of the Supreme Court police to add security to the justices' family and other people associated with the court has passed through the Senate.

Now that is up for debate in the House -- Victor, Alisyn.

BLACKWELL: Whitney Wild for us there at the Supreme Court, thank you very much.

Let's go now to Congresswoman Debbie Dingell of Michigan. She's with us now.

Thank you for just a few minutes of your time.

Let's start where Whitney ended there.This bill, the Supreme Court Police Parity Act that would extend that protection, is now in the House. It passed the Senate unanimously a month ago. Is it time to pass it?

REP. DEBBIE DINGELL (D-MI): Yes, it is time to pass it. I'm very disturbed by what's happening in this country, this trend that we have been seeing a public officials of the either parties' lives being threatened.

The threat to our Supreme Court justices is real. Whether I agree with them or not, their lives should not be threatened. Their security is at risk, and we need to be giving them the protection that they need.

[14:25:12]

BLACKWELL: Now, no reasonable person supports the threats against members of the Supreme Court.

But what's your view on the protests outside of their homes? Do you think those should continue?

DINGELL: You know, this is a very complicated subject. I have had men with assault weapons outside of my home. I have had

people outside of my home protesting. We do have free speech. I don't believe that anybody belongs outside of anybody's home carrying any kind of weapon, a gun, of -- ammunition or a knife.

I have had long discussions with my staff, even when we saw people disrupting people's meals in the previous administration, and whether that was appropriate. I have had people disrupt -- I have been getting coffee in the morning when a World War II veteran started screaming at me.

It's very -- it's a very difficult situation. It can become threatening. You don't know when there's physical harm there. How do you protect people's right to free speech? And where do you cross the line? It's not an easy answer, I will tell you that. I think about it a lot, because I have been a victim of it.

BLACKWELL: It sounds like you haven't reached one. And we know that this is something -- as you said, people have the right to free speech. But, also, when you come to someone's home, especially like what we saw, there are some important questions that need to be asked.

A lot of the concerns over security now are specifically after the leak of that draft opinion that would, if it is published eventually, would overturn Roe v. Wade. And the president was on with Jimmy Kimmel last night and he talked about what he expects will happen if Roe is overturned. Let's play that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think, if the court overrules Roe v. Wade and does what its draft...

JIMMY KIMMEL, HOST, "JIMMY KIMMEL LIVE": Yes, what we fear they will.

BIDEN: Well, if that occurs, I think we have to -- we have to legislate it.

I don't think the country will stand for it. But I think what we're going to have to do are, there are some executive orders I could employ, we believe. We're looking at that right now. But I want to keep -- I want to keep...

(APPLAUSE)

(CROSSTALK)

KIMMEL: Employ them.

BIDEN: But, look,...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: The president also said that he expects a mini-revolution, and then people will be voted out of office. We just got to Kaiser Family Foundation poll today that says, if it is overturned, the majority of people, it wouldn't make them any more likely to vote or motivate them in the midterms.

What do you expect?

DINGELL: So I want to say several things that you have kind of raised Victor in those last few words.

While I'm concerned about the safety of every Supreme Court justice, whether I agree with them or not, we need to realize what's happening to public servants across the country. You saw what happened on January 6. Those hearings start tonight.

People came to the Capitol that night, that day, not everybody, but some people came prepared to kill. We are seeing people threatened at school board meetings across the country. We need to worry about this level of violence, period.

The most important thing that every American has in a democracy is the power of the vote. People need to turn out. They need to vote. When they're not happy with what the government's doing, they need to show it at the ballot box.

But we have another danger now. People are undermining people's confidence in that ballot box, in the credibility of their vote. We are at a very dangerous time for this democracy. And we all need to know it. You can't sit on the sidelines and say it's someone else's responsibility.

Go back and have -- study what happened in Germany before we saw the beginning of World War II, what happened in Nazi Germany. Our democracy is under attack. It's in danger. And every American has a responsibility, if they want to live in this democracy, to worry about what's happening to it.

BLACKWELL: So, that -- let's go to guns now, because we know that the talks are continuing in the Senate. The House passed the Protect Our Kids Act, which will -- would do a lot of things that are not even part of the conversation in the Senate, frankly.

But ahead of that passage, we heard from the House minority whip, Steve Scalise. And here's what he said about the Democrats' proposal.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. STEVE SCALISE (R-LA): I go back to September 11. Airplanes were used that day as the weapon to kill thousands of people and to inflict terror on our country.

There wasn't a conversation about banning airplanes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: What's your response to that?

DINGELL: So, first of all, but there was a discussion about how you get into an airport who's allowed in it and who's flying those airplanes. I'm somebody that has looked at guns from all sides. My husband was an

NRA board member, and until the day he died, he slept with a gun underneath his pillow. But I had a father who I had to keep from killing my mother who, when his temper flipped, I would hide in the closet, and -- literally with my brothers and sisters.

And we didn't know if we would live until the next morning. He should never have had access to a gun.

[14:30:00]