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Bipartisan Group Of Senators Reaches Agreement In Principle On Gun Safety; Interview With Sen. Chris Coons (D-DE) About The Proposed Gun Reform Agreement; Orlando Mourns 49 Pulse Nightclub Victims Killed Six Years Ago Today; January 6th Committee Names All Witnesses For Tomorrow's Hearing; Interview With John Kirby About Foreign And Domestic Challenges For President Biden; Representative Ocasio-Cortez Won't Commit To Backing Biden In 2024. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired June 12, 2022 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[18:00:33]

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

EVA MCKEND, CNN NATIONAL POLITICS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A Senate breakthrough as a bipartisan group finds common ground on gun reform.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Any time the Senate can take action, it's kind of a miracle.

REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): President Trump summoned the mob.

GOV. ASA HUTCHINSON (R), ARKANSAS: They have the whole premise of the hearing is that President Trump is criminally responsible but in terms of criminal liability, I think the committee has a long way to go.

REP. JAMIE RASKIN (D-MD): I know that our first hearing pierced the sound barrier. But Americans need to pay further attention because the danger is still out there.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would gladly arrest 31 individuals rather than have them participate in some sort of seriously disruptive event, which is exactly what they were planning.

NADIA ROMERO, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: People here don't want everyone to forget what happened here at the Pulse Nightclub in Orlando, six years ago.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's senseless. It happens all the time and we just really, really, really, you know, just need to pay respect for things like that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: I'm Pamela Brown in Washington. And you are live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

An agreement in principle laid by a bipartisan group of senators says a gun safety deal is in the works including support from 10 Republicans who will critical to defeat a filibuster. Now if the deal becomes law, it would be the biggest gun reform legislation in decades.

This news comes 19 days after a gunman murdered 19 children and two teachers in a Uvalde, Texas, elementary school. And as much as gun advocates want to see that horrific event as a game changer, there have been at least 45 mass shootings in America since then. That's according to the Gun Violence Archives.

I want to bring in CNN's Eva McKend. She has more on this plan.

So, Eva, this isn't even a bill yet. It's just an agreement. But it is notable that this framework has enough Republican support right now to break the filibuster.

MCKEND: Yes, Pam. That is quite significant. But there is still a long way to go for this to get to the finish line. What we are learning is that this tentative agreement on legislation includes funding for mental health resources and school security programs, grants for states to enact so-called red flag laws.

It's important to note that this amounts to a suggestion to states with federal money attached, not a mandate or a requirement. A more thorough gun review process for people between the ages of 18 to 21. It would address the so-called boyfriend loophole. It may come as a surprise to many that there aren't tighter laws to prevent domestic violence abusers from getting guns beyond just spouses.

There's also new penalties for straw purchasing. That's when a gun is brought by one person on behalf of another who is not legally allowed to make the purchase. Additionally, it would clarify the definition of a firearm dealer.

Now, 10 Republican senators are on board, which would mean if all Democrats stick together, it would have enough support to overcome the filibuster and pass into law. But I am eager to see if all of the Democrats will in fact support this as well. They will be under tremendous pressure to do so.

But some may feel like this doesn't go far enough. Notably, Senator Portman, Senator Toomey around Senator Blunt, as well as Senator Burr, all retiring. So they likely are feeling less pressure because the right flank that will oppose these will have no impact on them.

Now President Biden, he wanted more, he wanted this to go much further. But he did say that this is a step in the right direction. It doesn't include a renewal of the assault weapons ban, most notably, and that's something that both President Biden and gun safety advocates have been calling for, for a long time -- Pam.

BROWN: All right. Eva McKend, thank you.

So let's talk about all of this, joining me now is one of the Democrats in that bipartisan group, Senator Chris Coons of Delaware. He is a longtime advocate for gun reform.

Senator, good to see you. So there is no actual legislative language here yet. As you know, the devil is in the details. Some of these are complicated issues. What makes you optimistic this will become meaningful legislation with enough Republican support to pass?

SEN. CHRIS COONS (D-DE): Well, Pamela, I am optimistic both because of the outreach and activism of the American people who have been flooding senators with phone calls and have been taking to the streets in the National March for Our Lives this weekend, and because of who is leading this effort.

[18:05:01]

Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut and Senator John Cornyn of Texas have worked with each other successfully to pass bipartisan legislation before and we've got a broad and representative group of both Republican and Democratic leadership. Senators Manchin and Toomey first opened this door a decade ago when they teamed up to work to expand background checks after the Sandy Hook massacre.

And Senator Blumenthal and Senator Graham have been working together on so-called red flag laws or emergency risk protection orders that would make it possible for local law enforcement to temporarily remove guns from demonstrably mentally ill and dangerous people such as might have been helpful in the Uvalde shooting.

Frankly, Pamela, I'm encouraged because despite weeks of work and lots of different pressures, this group of 20 senators has come together today and announced an encouraging framework.

BROWN: So what is the timing here then? When can we expect this framework to move towards a bill and eventually a vote?

COONS: Well, Pamela, we're going to be working hard this coming week to take this framework and turn it into legislative language that we can introduce on the floor. I am cautiously optimistic that we can get this passed out of the Senate in about the next two weeks before early July. In Senate terms, that would be rocketing along. But for the average American who's been waiting and watching in the weeks since the horrifying shooting in Buffalo and since the tragedy in Uvalde, they want us to act.

They want us to act before the attention of the nation turns to something else and they want us to act before the pressures that have been prevented comprehensive gun reform legislation in the past begin to work and to fray this group of 20 who are committed to each other and to this project.

BROWN: You had mentioned, touched on the red flag laws as part of this framework right now. This plan would incentivize states to pass those laws. Here's what you said earlier on "STATE OF THE UNION" about that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COONS: If it had been in place in the states of New York and in Texas, it's possible that that would have helped prevent these mass shootings in Buffalo and in Uvalde.

(END VIDEO CLIP) BROWN: But, Senator, New York enacted a red flag law in 2019. State police decided not to invoke that law against the Buffalo shooter, even though he had made serious threats of violence because he didn't have a previous criminal record. So how do you ensure that states adopting red flag laws use them?

COONS: Well, Pamela, that's a great point. Jake Tapper actually reached out to me after the "STATE OF THE UNION" to point that out to me that New York had such a law on the books. Part of the incentives we're going to be offering in these federal grants is for states that already have so-called red flag laws or crisis intervention order laws, and encourage them to more thoroughly and broadly implement them. Having a good law on the books doesn't mean that it's implemented. And there are costs associated with training, with potential litigation, with additional staffing required to timely and appropriately implement these laws.

So you are right, New York did have such a law on the books. I wasn't aware of that, that it was something that could have been put into effect in order to prevent the shooting in Buffalo, and a part of our consent agreement or part of our framework here is that we will be providing incentive grants to those states that don't yet have such laws and we'll be providing funding to help states that do have them implement them more effectively.

BROWN: All right. I want to ask you about just looking ahead, right. A lot of Democrats are seeing this is a good start. But of course, it doesn't hit on everything they would like to see, like raising the age to buying an assault rifle from 18 to 21 or issuing a ban on assault weapons like we saw in the '90s. Do you think more will happen on that front? Or is this all the action we will see for now? Because the reality is shootings are still going to happen in this country.

COONS: Pamela, we need to embrace the art of the possible. That's what politics is about. We won't get what we want. We won't get everything that I have supported or that the Democratic caucus has supported. But we are going to make progress here. And after years when significant progress has been lacking in the area of gun safety laws, I think we need to be encouraged by this.

I think we need to find the courage to also look beyond this and see whether we can after this law, if it happens, gets to the president's desk and gets under the books. If we can find other ways to move forward the difficult and important work of investing in community mental health and strengthening the laws that make it harder for people who shouldn't have access to guns to get access to guns.

BROWN: All right. Senator Chris Coons, thank you so much.

COONS: Thank you, Pamela.

BROWN: And let's go to CNN's Camila Bernal in Uvalde. So what are people saying there, Camila, about this potential gun reform legislation?

[18:10:02] CAMILA BERNAL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Pam, so there are two things that stood out when I talked to people. Hope and skepticism. A lot of people are hoping that this shooting here in Uvalde is the one that generates change. They said that a review process for buyers under the age of 21 is the right thing to do. They also pointed to those resources for mental health. But the bottom line is that everyone I talked to doesn't think there will be change despite this announcement in Washington.

Here's what some of them told me.

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JOY FLORES, SAN ANTONIO RESIDENT: I mean, there is a lot of talking about it. But there is no actually actions. So I mean, they can say that -- this for years when this is never going to like die down or anything. And I don't see anything going to change. I personally don't think it's going to change.

SYLVIA LEOS, DALLAS RESIDENT: With politics, nothing is, I mean, that's just people talking and unfortunately, we live in a world where money is what makes the decision and I don't know, it would surprise me, unfortunately. I wish it would, but, I don't know.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERNAL: And people also told me, look, we should be able to defend ourselves, but it doesn't mean we can't come to the table and get to an agreement in order to prevent something like this from happening again -- Pam.

BROWN: All right, Camila. Thank you so much.

And we are learning more tonight about the arrests of 31 people thought to be part of a white nationalist group in Idaho. Police say the Patriot Front members were piled in the back of a U-Haul truck heading to a Pride event and planning to riot. Minutes ago, we learned the suspects were from at least 12 states. The alleged plot falls in the shadow of the country's deadliest attack on the LBGTQ community.

Six years ago, you may recall a gunman murdered 49 people at the Pulse Nightclub in Orlando. CNN's Nadia Romero was there for today's memorial.

So, Nadia, let's begin with the Idaho arrest. What are police saying?

ROMERO: Well, Pamela, we heard from Coeur d'Alene's police chief and he says that inside of the U-Haul where they found the men, they also found shin guards and shields and other riot gear, and all 31 of those men facing conspiracy to riot charges. But all 31 of them bonding out of jail. So they're back out in the free world. Here in Orlando, right outside the Pulse Nightclub where that shooting happened, 49 people were killed that day, out trying to just enjoy their lives.

Having a good time at night. They were murdered inside this nightclub. And we just watched a security sweep of police officer and bomb sniffing dogs having to go to the memorial to make sure it's safe for people to come out and remember. That's the kind of world we live in now where people are being picked up for conspiracy to riot. And we have to do security sweeps here.

And that's why the organizers, the onePULSE Foundation, say we have to remember what happened here. We have to remember what happens when hate turns into action. People are murdered and it becomes a very dangerous situation for our entire society.

We spoke with a man by the name of Antonio and he told me that he was so excited six years ago to come to Pulse, to go out that night. He got all dressed up. But his husband was arriving home late from work. So they decided not to go. They just go the next weekend instead. The next morning they woke up to find out about the shooting. And he looked at his partner and said that could have been us. We could have been killed.

Listen to why he says it's so important to come out and pay his respects every year.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTONIO ECHENIQUE, ORLANDO RESIDENT: It definitely marks a difference in me. Every year I try, it don't matter if I work, if I have to be somewhere, I always stop by because, like I said, it could happen to me. And they were here, they lost their life and they were here for the same reason I was going to be here. They still had a good time and be able to spend some time with my loved ones at a safe place or what we thought was going to be a safe place.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROMERO: And you're hearing that a lot, Pamela, where we thought it was going to be safe. The memorial will be tonight at 7:00 in just about an hour -- Pamela.

BROWN: All right, Nadia Romero. Thank you so much.

And we have a lot more news ahead for you tonight on CNN NEWSROOM. The January 6th Committee is about to call two key witnesses. The man who ran President Trump's 2020 campaign and the former FOX political editor.

Plus, the White House has some big challenges ahead both foreign and domestic. And I want to talk about them with the National Security Coordinator for Strategic Communications, John Kirby. Now a mouthful with his new title there.

And a country music star says he is battling cancer. But we may see him perform again soon.

We'll be right back.

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[18:18:44] BROWN: The January 6th Committee's next public hearing is tomorrow at 10:00 a.m. And taking center stage the 2020 election lies. We know now that five witnesses have been called before the committee. Ben Ginsberg, a conservative election lawyer, Chris Stirewalt, the fired FOX political editor who called Arizona for Biden early on, as well as Bill Stepien, how ran Trump's campaign, and BJay Pak, the former U.S. attorney for the Northern District of Georgia, and Al Schmidt, the former Philadelphia city commissioner, who's a Republican.

Joining me now is CNN senior legal analyst Elie Honig.

So, Elie, Chris Stirewalt and Bill Stepien will be the first two at tomorrow's hearing. What can you tell us about them and their significance here?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, Pam, it's going to be a fascinating day, starting with Stirewalt. He was a longtime political journalist and editor at FOX News. He's the one who made the call on election night that Arizona had been won by Joe Biden. That caused panic to break out in the Trump campaign because that undermined their plan to try to claim victory. So Stirewalt will testify I believe about that call and about efforts by the Trump campaign to pressure him and FOX News to take it back.

Stirewalt has become an outspoken critic of the big lie. And then Stepien is really interesting to me because he was the campaign manager for the Trump campaign in the closing months of the campaign.

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Now we didn't know until a couple of hours ago he was going to testify. All we know is the committee in its letter to him said you were in charge of the campaign when it went from a presidential campaign into this "Stop the Steal" mode so I'm really going to keep a close eye on that testimony.

BROWN: And so what about the people appearing at Monday's second hearing? You have Ben Ginsberg, BJay Pak and Al Schmidt.

HONIG: Well, Ben Ginsberg of course has been a colleague of ours here at CNN. He is a longtime respected Republican conservative election lawyer. He has represented Republicans from Ronald Reagan up to George W. Bush. But he has been a very outspoken critic of the big lie. Al Schmidt was again a Republican commissioner in the Philadelphia Board of Elections. We know the Trump campaign's big lie theory focused heavily on Pennsylvania and Philadelphia. He has stood up publicly against the big lie.

And then BJay Pak was the U.S. attorney, the top federal prosecutor for the Northern District of Georgia, where Atlanta is. He resigned unexpectedly on January 4th and he has since testified in the Senate that the reason was because he believed he was going to be fired because he refused to give into pressure from the administration to try to validate these bogus election fraud claims.

BROWN: All right. So tomorrow could also be a big day on another front, and that of course could be the Supreme Court decisions that we could get as early as tomorrow on abortion, on guns, so what can we expect?

HONIG: Yes, Pam, over the next two to three weeks, we will get the remaining decision on the Supreme Court's docket. You hit on the two big ones. Of course, the abortion case is the biggest one. This is Dobbs. We've seen the draft opinion. Draft. But if that draft holds, then the court will reverse Roe versus Wade after nearly five full decades of precedent. Of course that will have monumental impact across the country.

The other really, really big one that we're waiting on is the case involving a New York state firearms law under the Second Amendment. It appears the Supreme Court is going to strike down those New York regulations. And if they do that, that could really expand the scope of the Second Amendment for people to carry firearms not only in their homes but also on their person and outside their homes.

So those are two big ones, Pam. They could come tomorrow. But they almost certainly -- they certainly will be here by the end of the term which will run until the end of June or maybe very early July. So huge news coming out of the Supreme Court as well.

BROWN: Yes, for sure. Elie Honig, thank you so much. Good to see you.

HONIG: Thanks, Pam.

BROWN: And you're in the CNN NEWSROOM on this Sunday. Up next, the war on Ukraine, talks with Latin American leaders, and the president's reported expected trip to Saudi Arabia. John Kirby in his new White House role is here to discuss all of that and more, up next.

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BROWN: Russia's war in Ukraine, the worldwide impact on energy and food, and a week of simmering tensions with Latin American leaders. The White House is facing a full plate of challenges at home and abroad.

I want to bring in John Kirby, the National Security Council coordinator for Strategic Communications at the White House.

That's quite the title now, John. You've been at the job for a week.

JOHN KIRBY, COORDINATOR FOR STRATEGIC COMMUNICATIONS, NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL: I have.

BROWN: You probably recognize him as the former Pentagon pretty secretary. He's a retired Navy admiral. What a time to be coming on at the White House. So much is happening, right?

KIRBY: Yes, there's a lot. There's a lot.

BROWN: And of course no surprise to you, I'm going to start with Saudi Arabia, right, because senior U.S. officials say President Biden is looking for a full reset and effectively move on from the 2018 murder of "Washington Post" columnist Jamal Khashoggi. Here's what President Biden said yesterday about the trip to Saudi Arabia.

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UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Have you decided, sir, whether to go to Saudi Arabia?

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: No, not yet. It happens to be a large meeting taking place in Saudi Arabia. That's the reason I'm going.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: The reason I'm going. Several news outlets are reporting that the president's trip will be announced soon. Can you confirm this trip for us?

KIRBY: Well, I tell you, we're working on the relationships in the region very, very hard. I don't have a trip to speak to or announce today with you, Pamela. But, look, this is a vital part of the world. And the president has been focused on this part of the world well before he was president of the United States and commander-in-chief, and we're going to continue to work on those relationships.

BROWN: OK. If he goes, it sound like details are being worked out right now. And it's fair to say.

KIRBY: Yes. Again, we don't have a trip to speak tonight but --

BROWN: But details are being worked out for a potential trip?

KIRBY: We are certainly thinking about what would a trip look like and what kinds of things we need to do when we go to the region.

BROWN: And as part of that, as you think through, what it could look like, could we expect a meeting between the president and the Crown Prince MBS? Is that something that you were looking at?

KIRBY: Yes, again, I don't want to get ahead of an agenda that hasn't been announced. But, look, I think it's fair to say, and this president knows foreign policy better than most. That when you execute a foreign policy, it's got to be in concert with your country's values as well as your country's interests. And so the president has said, and he's right to say this, that he'll meet with leaders if it's in the best national interest of the United States and the American people.

BROWN: Well, you talk about the country's values, the president when he was a private citizen, when he was a candidate, he talked about how, look, that Saudi Arabia must pay a price for the Khashoggi killing, he talked about the fact the U.S. has to have the moral high ground here, and he criticized the former President Trump.

So how would a trip reflect -- to Saudi Arabia reflect the values of America given the killing of Jamal Khashoggi, the "Washington Post" journalist, and the fact that the administration released a report saying MBS was central to that killing?

KIRBY: Well, that's just it. Right after taking office, the president did release a report that talked about the role of Saudi leaders in the Khashoggi killing as well as instituting what we called the Khashoggi ban now that would limit travel for other regimes that do this kind of thing to journalists. We have put in place, the president has put in place accountability measures with respect to the Khashoggi killing. But Saudi Arabia is also a strategic partner.

BROWN: Yes.

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KIRBY: And in foreign policy, it's about balancing the values and we're standing up for the values. And we're not afraid to speak to our human right concerns in any country around the world, but also pursuing national security interests. And there's a lot of shared national security interest when it comes to the relationships in the Middle East particularly with Saudi. Counterterrorism, what's going on, you know, in Yemen. And it was from our engagement with the Saudis that we were able to get a truce that has now been extended in Yemen.

BROWN: And I understand your point in saying that there are strategic national security priorities here.

KIRBY: Yes.

BROWN: But there's the human rights aspect and the fact that Biden himself is on record saying what he said. You've said Saudi Arabia has been held accountable. The administration will release a report. But price has MBS paid specifically?

KIRBY: Both can be true. You can pursue values and national security interests at the same time. And President Biden has done that. And there has been accountability measures put in place, sanctions on --

BROWN: But for MBS specifically.

KIRBY: Sanctions on the Saudi Royal Guard as well as other bans put in place on travel for people -- for regimes who continue to persecute and conduct violence against protests or activists. There has been accountability measures put in place.

BROWN: But not specifically for MBS, is what I'm hearing from you. What has changed in the last several months? Because our understanding is that President Biden initially resisted visiting Saudi Arabia. Now, as you say, details are being looked at for a potential trip. You won't confirm the trip is happening. But what has changed exactly? Why is there now this new openness specifically? And you know what do you say to those watching right now who believe that the president will be giving up some moral high ground here?

KIRBY: I think it's actually better to talk about what hasn't changed, Pamela. And what hasn't changed is a long standing, eight decades long partnership with Saudi Arabia and members of -- and other countries in the region. But Saudi Arabia specifically, a key partner in the fight against ISIS. A key partner in the region in terms of counterterrorism writ large, in terms of pushing back on Iran's destabilizing behavior.

And again, we have worked closely with the Saudis, engaging diplomatically on the war in Yemen, which obviously the president has called for that war to end. He's called for a diplomatic negotiated solution, and now working with the Saudis, we've been able to help put in place a truce now for two months, just got extended for another two.

There is a spate of national security issues that remain front and center for us in the Middle East. So it's what hasn't changed I think that's important.

BROWN: All right. Sit tight. We'll be right back after this break to continue this conversation.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:37:12]

BROWN: I want to bring back John Kirby, the National Security Council coordinator for Strategic Communications at the White House.

All right, so let's talk about last week's Summit of the Americas.

KIRBY: Yes.

BROWN: Here's what you told our John King on Wednesday. OK. Apparently we don't have that sound. But basically, you said that -- you were talking about Saudi Arabia. Oh, we do have it now.

KIRBY: All right.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KIRBY: Saudi Arabia is an important part. And the president believes that. And the president also believes, John, that it's important for him to be willing and able to meet with leaders all across the world, no matter who they are or who they represent if, in fact, it's going to improve U.S. national security interests.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: But Biden didn't invite the leaders of Cuba, Venezuela, and Nicaragua to this Summit of the Americas. You said the president is willing to meet with anyone if it will improve U.S. national security. Is meeting those leaders then not furthering national security? And did this cause more division than unity, not inviting them?

KIRBY: No, not at all. This was a very successful summit. I mean, 22 heads of state, 68 delegations. Look at the things that were done. An economic agenda for the region including $3.2 billion in more investment. A migration declaration that will actually for the first time consider regional concerns, criminal, sociological, and other dynamics in the region, a regional approach to migration, climate agreement in the Caribbean. I can go on and on. There was a lot done.

But the fact that a few nations weren't invited because it was in fact by design a summit of democracies, and these are not democracies, doesn't negate the fact that we're still going to have engagements with those nations in the region, which we do.

Back to your question to me earlier about Saudi Arabia. The fact that you can disagree with a country is not a bad thing. You just find ways to engage. But that's a different proposal than them going to a summit that's designed for democracies. If this was a principled stand by the president, to keep the Summit of the Americas focused on democracies and the challenges that democracies in the region are facing.

BROWN: Well, let's go to a democracy that has been -- emerging democracy that has been under threat. And of course, that is Ukraine. The war there ongoing, under threat by the Russians. A growing food crisis is happening. There are soaring energy prices.

KIRBY: Yes.

BROWN: Has Russia's unprovoked war effectively weaponized food and energy?

KIRBY: It has absolutely has weaponized food. Mr. Putin has weaponized food. And we are working hard with the international community in the U.N. to find ways to be able to get that grain out there and on the market where it belongs. But this is just another example of the brutality with which Mr. Putin is prosecuting this war. He is finding a way to weaponize now grain shipments.

BROWN: What is your concern, though, about feeling that here in the U.S.?

KIRBY: I think we understand that this is going to have a global impact. It's certainly going to have an impact on the European continent.

[18:40:02]

We're going to feel some of that probably here as well, which is why we're working so hard on trying to find alternative routes to get some of that grain out. You heard the president talk about this the other night, you know, buy ground, trying to find other ways to get some of that grain out and onto the market.

BROWN: Well, there are estimates of that Ukraine is losing as many as 100 to 200 soldiers every day. The Ukrainians are facing overwhelming numbers of Russian artillery. Do you think that Ukraine will be able to hold its position in Donbas?

KIRBY: Can you imagine where we were 100 days ago, Pamela?

BROWN: Well, it's true. Yes.

KIRBY: When we were all thinking, you know, Kyiv could fall in a matter of days and Mr. Putin was attacking the country on three major lines of access all on the whole eastern part of the country. And now we're talking about a fight in a much smaller geographic area. It is a brutal fight. We've described it as a knife fight. It's very much an artillery, a gun fight. But it is focused on a much smaller area.

And the Ukrainians are holding their own. Now yes, there has been incremental progress by the Russians. But it is incremental. It is slow, it's plotting, and it's uneven, and that's because all of the security assistance that Ukraine continues to get from Western countries, including the United States. We've been the biggest provider of security assistance to include the kinds of systems that they need in this fight right now, whether it's M777 howitzers, and we've sent more than 100, or it's now these what we call HIMARS, a multiple launch rocket system on wheels that will be going in very, very soon to help them get some distance, get some range on these Russian forces.

BROWN: So what do you to critics who say they actually know that these weapons aren't enough. You know, I have spoken to some people who have privately expressed that concern to me that, look, yes, the U.S. administration is sending over weapons and that has been great, and as you said the biggest provider. But not all the weapons that the Ukrainians need to beat the Russians and that basically this reflects a fear of Putin.

KIRBY: I'll tell you, we are talking to Ukrainians literally every day and Secretary Austin is going to hold yet another contact group meeting with nations around the world to talk about security assistance, additional commitments in just a week or so. But every day we're talking to Ukrainians about their requirements and capabilities, and how we can fulfill them, and if we can't, Pamela, we're talking to other nations about what they can provide.

So we're on a daily conversation trying to meet the requirements as fast as we can. And I'll tell you, there is material going into Ukraine every single day.

BROWN: If Putin succeeds in Ukraine, as you know, there is a lot of concern that that will only empower China to take over Taiwan. How concern are you about that?

KIRBY: I think we need to be careful about comparisons between what's going on in Ukraine and Taiwan. And look, we've been very, very clear. Nothing's changed about our adherence to the One China policy. We don't want to see the status quo over the strait changed unilaterally, certainly not militarily. And there is no reason for it to ever come to blows.

BROWN: All right. I want to ask you about some back and forth that has been happening in terms of communication from the president saying that Ukrainian President Zelenskyy didn't want to hear that Russia was preparing to invade. This week Ukrainian officials, they are pushing back against that claim. They are saying, look, Zelenskyy was the one pushing for preemptive sanctions before Russia formally launch the war. So how does all of this square?

KIRBY: Look, I think we were honest from very early on, certainly in February about what we were seeing. And we were very public about what we were seeing. And, you know, as you saw us talk about this just a day or so ago, I mean, the president has great respect for President Zelenskyy and his wartime leadership. I mean, he has been doing an amazing job. Not just rallying his people but executing good command and control over his forces.

We're focused right now. We are --

BROWN: That's true. Just -- yes, but I just want to get back to the president saying that Zelenskyy didn't want to hear that Russia was preparing to invade.

KIRBY: There were a lot --

BROWN: Is that true?

KIRBY: There was a lot of opinions about the intelligence early on. And we respect that. Differences of opinions especially with partners is to be expected as we've been talking earlier today. We're focused right now on making sure that they can succeed on the battlefield now and that they can continue to defend their people and their country.

BROWN: OK. Finally I want to ask you about this news that came out. The arrest of 31 members of a white nationalist group in Idaho accused of plotting a riot at a Pride event. Congressman Jamie Raskin, member of the January 6th Committee, as you know, says these are the same type of people who attacked the Capitol. How much does the National Security Council monitoring the rise in white nationalism?

KIRBY: I think, look, domestic terrorism is a constant focus for the National Security Council, and the Homeland Security Council. I mean we have to be in constant touch with law enforcement agencies and intelligence community about the threat inside the country. It is a valid concern.

BROWN: All right, John Kirby, thank you so much. Again only a week into your new job.

KIRBY: Yes.

BROWN: Handling a lot of different issues. Thank you so much for coming on set.

KIRBY: Thank you. Yes, ma'am.

BROWN: And you are in the CNN NEWSROOM on this Sunday. If President Biden hopes to win reelection in 2024, he's apparently going to need to do more to win over his own party. President Obama's former senior adviser David Axelrod joins me next to discuss.

[18:45:03]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Poll after poll shows Americans believe the country is heading in the wrong direction with many placing the blame squarely on President Biden. But there are signs even some elected Democrats are wavering in their support for the president. Listen to Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. CNN's Dana Bash asked her today if she would endorse Biden in 2024.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ (D-NY): We'll cross that bridge when we get to it but I think if the president has a vision and that's something certainly we're all willing to entertain and examine when the time comes.

DANA BASH, CNN ANCHOR, STATE OF THE UNION: That's not a yes.

[18:50:03]

OCASIO-CORTEZ: Yes. You know, I think we should endorse when we get to it. But I believe that the president has been doing a very good job so far and, you know, should he run again I think that I -- you know, I think it's -- we'll take a look at it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: So let's discuss with CNN political commentator and former political adviser to President Obama, David Axelrod.

Hi, David.

DAVID AXELROD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Hey, Pam.

BROWN: So you heard there Congresswoman Ocasio-Cortez's comments. They come as "The New York Times" published this article. And I want to read part of it to you, says, "As the challenges facing the nation mount and fatigued base voters show low enthusiasm Democrats in union meetings, the backrooms of Capitol Hill and party gatherings from coast to coast are quietly worried about Mr. Biden's leadership, his age and his capability to take the fight to former President Donald J. Trump a second time."

So in your view should the president be worried about a potential uprising inside his party? What's your reaction to this?

AXELROD: You know, I feel like as if the president decides and he says he's going to run, if he does run my guess is he'll -- not my guess, I'm certain he'll be the nominee of the Democratic Party, it would be suicidal for the party to have a primary campaign against the sitting president of the United States. History is very clear on that. When presidents get serious primary challenges they generally prevail and they generally lose in a general election. And the one thing that unifies Democrats more than anything is the prospect of a second Trump term.

So, you know, and I saw some social media from AOC after that interview in which she said she could have handled that answer better and wasn't prepared for it. I don't think she meant to signal disquiet in there but it does come at a bad time for the president. It's not particularly helpful. I think, Pam, lone thing in that story and I think I was quoted in

that story that is real and it's different than any other president. I mean, President Obama was under siege as well at this time in his presidency, and there was hang-wringing and quiet meetings going on as well. But he was also 30 years younger than this president and that is a concern, the ability to run a rigorous, vigorous campaign and manage the presidency at the same time when he is in his 81st year.

And I think that's a legitimate question and is one he's going to have to consider when he tows up to the line and makes the final call that he is going to go.

BROWN: But I'm just curious. Does what I read to you from that "The New York Times" article, does that seem right to you in terms of this hand-wringing among Democrats as the country sees, you know, inflation go up to record levels? You know, you have the supply chain issues ongoing. Customer sentiment, consumer sentiment, rather, just hit a record low. Polling showing the economy is far away the most important factor in voters' choice for Congress.

As we heard towards the midterms are you sensing that kind of hand- wringing?

AXELROD: Well, for sure. First of all, Democrats hand-wring for practice so it's not unusual for this to be going on. I mean, I experienced that when I was in the White House. So yes, there's -- but look, Democrats are in a bad spot right now. I don't think anybody can deny that. I mean, the inflation at a 40-year high. We're coming -- we're still coming through a pandemic that has unsettled all of us.

The whole issue of supply chains. What's on the grocery store shelves and so on. All of these issues have conspired to create a sense of disquiet. Only a quarter of the country think that we're headed in the right direction. Despite the fact that we are in a much different place relative to the virus now and the economy. In all other aspects it's much stronger than it was a year, a year and a half ago.

These are bad signs for Democrats as is the president's approval rating which is at a historic low, hovering there around 40 percent. All of that is true. There is a lot of time between now and the next presidential election, and again I think the most important decision as the one the president himself makes as to whether he feels like he is up to another go at this. And I think the thing that's motivating him, Pam, is the prospect of Trump. You hear from the people around him that they feel -- that he feels that he's the guy who can beat Trump.

He did it once, he wants to make sure that Trump is beaten again. He thinks he can do that, and so that is animating him in his thoughts about 2024. But that's a long way from now and at some point he's going to have to evaluate whether this is the best thing for him, best thing for the party, the country and his family.

[18:55:06]

BROWN: All right. David Axelrod, thanks for your time tonight. We appreciate it.

AXELROD: Good to see you, Pam.

BROWN: You, too.

And you're in the CNN NEWSROOM on this Sunday. Still ahead for you tonight, Toby Keith is announcing a major health crisis but the country music superstar says he could be back on stage very soon.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Heads up for you tonight. What made former White House counsel John Dean decide to testify against President Nixon? The drama heats up when our original series "WATERGATE: BLUEPRINT FOR A SCANDAL" continues tonight at 9:00 right here on CNN.