Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Protests Across U.S. After Supreme Court Overturns Roe; Ohio Lawmaker Shares Personal Story Of Rape And Abortion; Biden Signs Historic Bipartisan Gun Reform Bill; Supreme Court Strikes Down Law Limiting Guns In Public; Confusion As Some States Move Quickly To Ban Abortion After Roe Ruling; The Legality Of Using FDA-Approved Abortion Pills Received In Mail In States Banning Abortion; Polls: Majority Against Supreme Court Overturning Roe v. Wade. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired June 25, 2022 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:00:30]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Stand up.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: Emotional aftershocks felt across America -- after the Supreme Court rules women no longer have a constitutional right to an abortion.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Been fighting my entire adult life for this day. We are dancing on the grave of Roe versus Wade.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Here we are outside of the very last standing abortion clinic in the state of Mississippi.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ten states across the country effectively banning abortion.

BROWN: Protests in other cities turning violent.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bipartisan action on the issues of guns. Congress passing that bill exactly one month to the day of that horrific massacre that occurred in Uvalde, Texas.

Joe Biden, President of the United States: This bill doesn't do everything I want. It does include action that's long called for that are going to save lives.

BROWN: The Pride Parade in Oslo canceled after a shooting near a gay bar killed at least two people and hurt eight others.

I'm Pamela Brown in Washington. You are in the CNN NEWSROOM.

Angst and euphoria as a divided nation reacts to the Supreme Court's most life-changing ruling in decades. Today protests have spilled across the country including outside the Supreme Court one day after five justices overturned the landmark Roe v Wade decision after nearly 50 years.

American women no longer have a constitutional right to an abortion and 26 states are expected to enact laws banning abortion. For opponents of abortion rights and many conservatives it is a breathtaking victory decades in the making and seemed completely out of reach just a few years ago.

CNN correspondents are scattered across the country following the ripple effects of the court's historic ruling. I want to begin with Joe Johns outside the Supreme Court. So what is the scene like there right now, Joe?

JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Well, just take a look, Pamela. This is outside the Supreme Court and what we're seeing is anger, outrage, fear about the future after the court overturned Roe versus Wade.

Take a look. A large crowd has gathered here. Almost all afternoon, it's almost over but we've just seen a lot of people coming in and you look at the signs, you can tell virtually all of these people in front of us are abortion rights supporters.

Now, there have been some opponents of abortion rights here on the fringes mostly, which has led to some confrontation, some yelling, shouting, cursing and even reportedly police having to intervene here and there. Speakers, as well, have admonished the crowd that this is supposed to be a peaceful rally here in front of the U.S. Supreme Court.

NADIA ROMERO, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I'm Nadia Romero in Jackson, Mississippi outside of the last abortion clinic still open in the state. The abortion provider tells me that he's doing abortions all throughout the day.

They started letting in patients long before the opening hours and they've remained past hours to allow those women to come in and get access to health care.

You can see behind, that there are still protesters that are out here, anti-abortion protesters who have been trying to convince women not to come into the clinic. Here in the state of Mississippi there's still about ten days or so during that certification process before abortions must stop in this state and that's why this clinic had extended their hours.

CAMILA BERNAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Camila Bernal in Los Angeles where a group of protesters has been gathered throughout the day. They've been marching, they have been demanding abortion rights, not just for people here in California. They understand that abortions are protected in this state but they say they stand with women in so many other states where abortion is not going to be an option.

Some of the protesters I talked with told me they're frustrated and they're angry. I had one woman who shared her story with me. She had an abortion and she told me that she did not regret it. That she was very happy about having that abortion and she says now she's focused and donating to organizations that will help women come to California if they need an abortion.

[17:04:52]

BERNAL: Right now they're all sharing their stories and then chanting and supporting the many members of the community that have come out here today. There are a number of groups scattered throughout downtown Los Angeles.

We have been marching, we are back in front of city hall and this group continues to be out here. They say they want more and more people to come and show their support and show their frustration, because they are demanding change, Pam.

BROWN: All right. Camila, Nadia, Joe -- thank you all.

An Ohio state lawmaker is once again sharing her own personal story of abortion. Teresa Fedor wrote in a 2015 "Time Magazine" article that during debate on Ohio's so-called the Heartbeat Law, quote, "Without having planned to speak out beforehand I made it known I have been a victim of rape and underwent an abortion while serving in the military.

Teresa Fedor is now a state senator and she joins me now, live. So you told your colleagues, You were the victim of rape. You had an abortion. You have called this Supreme Court decision the largest reversal of women's personal privacy rights in U.S. history. How will this decision play out in Ohio?

TERESA FEDOR (D), OHIO STATE SENATOR: Well, thank you very much for having me on. And I'm just one of the many, many stories throughout America who lived that experience. And yesterday we woke up with a reproductive freedom, 10:15, we lost it.

And in Ohio by the end of the day as I was standing with a rally and protesters in Toledo about 2,000 people, we lost our right to have an abortion when the AG supported DeWine's effort to put in the Heartbeat Bill which means that if there is a fetal presence at six weeks, you -- whether rape or incest is involved, you cannot get an abortion.

And so we have these draconian bills now being enacted. Just like the nation, Ohioans do not support losing our personal freedoms, privacy and reproductive choice for women especially, so you know, this is heart wrenching.

And I go back to 1973 in high school. 1974, I graduated. We had this right and it is a complete nightmare. I don't believe our country is ready for the all unintended consequences, extreme issues that women have to face with their reproductive health and this is going to be something that we have to translate into the voting booth and putting new elected leaders who respond to the will of the people, not politics and extreme ideology.

BROWN: The reality is as you noted Ohio is expected to reinstate its Heartbeat Law that was passed in 2019. What are you going to do as a member of the state Senate to ensure the women who cannot get the abortions that they would have wanted have the resources that they need?

FEDOR: Well, you know, just like the underground railroad worked before the civil war, during the civil war, I live in Toledo, Ohio which is on the border of Michigan. And as we're trying to find our way through our opportunity and our right to have reproductive freedom, we're going to figure this out.

You know, imagine fathers and their daughter's life is on the line, God forbid she was raped and you don't have any choice unless you have resources to go to another state. This is just like the underground railroad system we're have to set up until we have our voices heard and representatives who represent Americans, not extreme, you know, party issues.

So a lot of things contribute to this. In Ohio the gerrymandered districts, we're voting on unconstitutional gerrymandered districts because the Republican super majority, want to hoard power and continue gerrymandering to continue to have power and put in extreme laws that Ohioans do not want. And a lot of this is also surrounding around the issue of dark money coming into campaigns.

So there's a lot of work ahead and we need to tell all the women in Ohio we're not going to take this sitting down. We're going to rally our votes, make sure everyone in our family and our friends are ready to vote, register and constantly check because in Ohio they purge, Republicans purge our votes all the time.

So this is just more effort to win in the ballot box and get that done.

BROWN: Ok. I'm not sure what you mean about Republicans purging the votes but I do want to focus on abortions, on this issue in the wake of this historic decision by the Supreme Court. Yesterday another Republican bill in the Ohio state -- statehouse is HB-598. That bill would effectively ban abortions in Ohio and make it a felony for doctors to perform abortions.

[17:09:58]

BROWN: Governor DeWine has said that he would sign that bill. Do Democrats in your state have a way to block that from happening?

FEDOR: Well, because Republicans are in the supermajority the answer to that is no. So we continue to rally our voices to be heard, people to come, put the political pressure.

This is going to be an ongoing effort to really take back our statehouse and our representation for Ohioans and that's going to mean we're going to have to get people elected, go vote, make sure they're registered to vote and turn this around. But it's going to be tough.

It is going to be tough, but the people show up with rallies, protests throughout Ohio but Republicans will not listen.

BROWN: I want to ask you before we let you go, we know that outlawing abortion doesn't end abortions. How worried are you that women will increasingly turn to dangerous means to end pregnancies. And I'm curious about you and your own personal experience what you would have done had you not had access to abortion after being raped?

FEDOR: Well, I thought about that and especially sitting as a legislator for 22 years watching these bills continually go through the statehouse where majority of the women want their reproductive freedom. We're just going to have to continue to fight this effort.

I wouldn't have been a legislator if I wouldn't have had the choices that I had. And I'm the lead individual as a legislator that fought against human trafficking. And I cannot imagine how many women are not going to be there in the future because they didn't have their reproductive freedom. They didn't have their privacy rights respected as a member and citizen of this nation, so there are a lot of consequences, but we're going to pull together and try to help our sisters, the sisterhood pull through.

There are recourses in the future and we must start today to make sure we impact that in Ohio August 2nd and November 8th. So we'll continue to do that and rally and to stand. If we need a constitutional amendment, I'm all there. I will help get that passed.

BROWN: Ok. Thank you so much, Ohio state senator Teresa Fedor.

FEDOR: Thank you. My pleasure.

BROWN: And coming up, we're going to talk with a woman would calls herself unapologetically pro-life and part of the post-Roe generation.

Also ahead tonight for the first time in decades new major federal gun safety legislation is signed into law. But is it enough? I'm going to talk to school shooting survivor David Hogg about that.

[17:12:41]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Anti-abortion activists are celebrating the Supreme Court's decision to overturn Roe v Wade. And that includes our next guest, Kristan Hawkins is president of Students for Life of America, the group fighting to abolish abortion in the United States. Hi, Kristan. Thank you for joining us.

KRISTAN HAWKINS, PRESIDENT, STUDENTS FOR LIFE OF AMERICA: Thanks for having me.

BROWN: There have been people working towards this decision for around 50 years. You have been working on this personally for 15 years. Is your fight done?

HAWKINS: Absolutely not. In fact, this is a heady responsibility to say that we're the first post-roe generation. Today we were knocking on doors in suburban Maryland ensuring that every woman that we meet knows she doesn't stand alone in a post-Roe America. So we have a lot of work still to do. BROWN: In what way?

HAWKINS: We have to work obviously to protect women and children from dangerous chemical abortion pills that President Biden has promised to try to make them over the country.

BROWN: The FDA has said they are safe and effective as you heard the --

HAWKINS: Yes. and over 24 women have died that we know of. We don't have a national abortion reporting law.--

BROWN: There is no direct evidence connecting them.

HAWKINS: Yes, absolutely but we also have to do a better job of promoting non nonviolent resources. The fact that there's 3,400 pregnancy centers, maternity homes that have been operating in communities for decades that vastly outnumber abortion facilities in our neighborhoods but sadly nearly 73 percent of Americans that we meet do not even know that these resources exist.

And so that's really been my challenge to those of us who are pro-life right now in this moment of getting our voices out there. Promoting Web sites like StandingWithYou.org and other places where women can go and families can go and get support and services.

BROWN: Right, because as you all know economists are now predicting that child poverty, the rate of that is going to go up. Many of these states that are now banning abortion do not have paid family leave. They don't have the extended Medicaid for women who give birth.

So if you could explain a little bit more about how you're going to fight for these disadvantaged women who wanted to get an abortion, they couldn't because of the state they live in and their children who are growing up in poverty.

HAWKINS: Well, we've been fighting for these women and their families for 50 years. It's a fact, the abortion industry and what we hear on campuses all the time, that tells women that abortion is a simple solution to all their problems

. When in fact we believe in helping those who suffer not eliminating someone who may potentially suffer. I think you help suffering. You help alleviate the suffering, you don't say, well, we're going to solve that by just prescribing abortion because abortion doesn't end poverty. Abortion doesn't take her out of that abusive relationship that she finds herself. That's harder work. That's walking alongside someone and seeking social justice with that person and that's what we've been doing through the Pregnancy Center Movement for nearly 50 year.

BROWN: Well, first of all I hear what you're saying but the reality is, I think it's nearly half a million kids end up in foster care.

[17:19:47] And I don't know how many of those were kids that, you know, the mother wanted to abort and came from a disadvantaged home but the reality is you say that you're working on this but so many kids still end up abused, neglected in a broken foster care system. And the reality is the governments in these states do not have the resources on the books such as paid family leave, such as the extended Medicaid to help with these situations.

HAWKINS: We can definitely talk about those policies but the question is, is the solution to children in foster care to kill them?

No one would argue in our society that because a child is in foster care, therefore, their life is unworthy of living. That's the point that we're making in the pro-life movement every single day when we argue for protection at conception that just because someone may suffer in their life, it doesn't mean we should snuff them out of existence, that we should violently end their life when they've done nothing wrong.

And I think that's the important part to start the conversation.

BROWN: I want to get to that because you bring up two important points, your view that life begins at conception but also your view that even bans like in Missouri which bans abortion even in the case of rape or incest. You support that.

So under those laws, a 12-year-old could be raped and still be forced to carry that baby to term. Is that what you want? Is that the kind of thing you support?

HAWKINS: I absolutely don't want 12-year-olds to be raped. I don't want --

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: Unfortunately, that's the reality of the word we live in.

HAWKINS: Absolutely, we definitely see these tragedies and I think we need to do a better job in enforcing penalties on these people who commit heinous crimes.--

BROWN: But do you think the 12-year-old should carry that --

HAWKINS: I don't believe in discrimination against a human being based on the circumstances of their conception. Because We don't issue birth certificates in our nation and give gold stars or silver stars as to how you were conceived. We say, no, you are a human being with rights and you should be protected.

BROWN: so why are you saying --

HAWKINS: That's what we believe as a movement. I think -- I actually think you should speak with those like friends like my friend Ryan Baumberger who was conceived in rape and who's mother made a courageous decision to place him with an adoptive family and talk with the to tens of thousands who are living today who have families who were conceived in sexual assault that every single time we talk about abortion in America, we bring these human beings up as if their lives don't matter and they don't have value.

I simply reject that.

BROWN: Yes. And that's what we're saying, the question was about should a 12-year-old carry a baby to term if that 12-year-old was raped. Clearly you think, yes, that is the case. And We have talked to many people who were born even though their mother was raped or even though their mother considered having an abortion and chose not to. We've talked to people all across the spectrum.

But you are arguing that your Catholic Faith dictates that the life begins at the moment of conception. There's a synagogue in Florida that has filed suit claiming that in Jewish law abortion is required if necessary to protect the health, mental or physical well-being of the woman. Why should your religious beliefs trump theirs?

HAWKINS: It's not my faith that tells me that life begins at conception. It's science. 96 percent of biologist agree that the moment --

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: I don't believe that --

HAWKINS: A unique human life comes into existence. There's no other moment when that --

BROWN: Where are you getting the 96 percent of biology. Where does that come from specifically --

HAWKINS: That's a study from Chicago -- University of Chicago.

My producer will look that up. I read many opinions preparing for this segment -- I just want to be clear with our viewers.

(CROSSTALK)

HAWKINS: That's science. You can debate whether or not that human life has value. My faith tells me that that human life --

BROWN: There is no consensus among scientists.

HAWKINS: And that faith tells me that that human life should be protected. But science tells us at the moment of conception when egg and sperm unite, a unique genetic code comes into existence that's never existed before and will never exist again. That is, in fact, the moment when a human being comes into existence. That is indisputable.

BROWN: Ok. There's not a consensus among scientists. There is absolutely not.

(CROSSTALK)

HAWKINS: Let me walk you through what many scientists have said. I read all sides of it today from various scientists. First of all, there is a general view that a baby, a fetus reaches viability between I believe it is 24 to 28 weeks in the womb.

There is a view that when the egg meets the sperm and becomes an embryo it is just a cluster of cells. It is not. I'm just a cluster of cells. What makes me different from that embryo.

BROWN: I know and I heard you say that. But I'll tell you right now, what about and this is -- I am not taking a position but I like to challenge --

HAWKINS: No, this is fun.

BROWN: Exactly.

HAWKINS: I like having this discussion. This is important.

BROWN: So if a woman goes in, she want -- she can't get pregnant on her own so in a lab they have to take, you know, they have to do it scientifically. In the lab they have to put the egg and the sperm together to create an embryo. In the process of trying to get this woman pregnant a doctor destroys the embryos because that's just what happens. Is that doctor then a murderer?

[17:24:56]

HAWKINS: Yes, the doctor is ending human life. We don't define it as murder in our --

(CROSSTALK)

HAWKINS: -- but that is ending human life.

BROWN: So IVF clinics should be banned?

HAWKINS: It depends on the procedure that is used in an IVF.

BROWN: But sometimes that's what happens.

HAWKINS: But there's also the question of intentionality as well. There are -- I had a question posed to me recently on campus where someone said if a woman is having a miscarriage do you consider her being a murderer? Absolutely not. That's something that is unintended and is sad.

And just because if a woman might be, you know, at risk for miscarriage we don't consider her a murderer because she has an unfortunate situation.

BROWN: And that wasn't my question. I see what you're saying but I'm talking about a doctor who was trying to help a woman get pregnant and through the process embryos have to be destroyed. That doctor is a murderer even though --

HAWKINS: No embryos should have to be ever be destroyed in IVF. BROWN: Ok, well, it does happen. That's just the bottom line. And also

there are so many embryos frozen as well that these IVF clinics oversee, so what about that?

HAWKINS: I think that's what we've been talking about -- intentionality. I would say when we talk about pro-life laws, this isn't even discussed. So when we're talking about what is next in a post-Roe America the discussion of IVF isn't even on the table.

We're talking about ending human life intentionally, dismembering children who have limbs, whose arms and legs have to be removed from a woman's body and put back together. That's what we're talking about when we are talking about seeking laws to protect women against the predatory abortion facility.

BROWN: What about the women who -- you know this will happen because it has historically women are in states where abortion is now outlawed. How worried are you they will turn to an increasingly dangerous means to end their pregnancies.

HAWKINS: We don't want any women to die. That's why we're pro-life. I'm actually very concerned why the Biden administration has rushed through these dangerous chemical abortion pills which lead to --

BROWN: The FDA says they are safe and effective. The FDA says they are safe and effective.

HAWKINS: Yes, but they've also killed women. 24 women have died. 24 women.

BROWN: There's no -- that I'm aware of there is direct causal link and my producer is looking this up between the pill that the FDA has said is safe and effective for abortions and killing a woman.

HAWKINS: You can talk to the family members. There's a gentleman that he speaks openly in the state of California about his daughter who died taking these chemical abortion pills. We know, even though we don't have a national abortion reporting law 24 women have died.

And I would actually ask you why is it on Twitter that abortion activists right now are posting homemade do it yourself abortions, dangerous chemicals that they're telling women to take. That's not the pro-life movement doing that. We're saying how can we help you? How can we support you?

How can we alleviate the crisis you find yourself in without ingesting dangerous chemicals that's going to kill this child and possibly kill you? That's not on the pro-life movement. That is on abortion activists right now.

BROWN: Well, I think abortion activists would say they don't want women taking dangerous chemicals either.

HAWKINS: The cocktails are on Twitter.

BROWN: Look, there's a lot of crazy stuff on Twitter. I don't think that's what a majority --

(CROSSTALK)

HAWKINS: (INAUDIBLE) and other pro-abortion news outlets are actually publishing those articles right now. I think that's a very dangerous situation.

BROWN: Ok. That certainly not something that we endorse and that is something that you have brought up not something that I brought up to you.

But I appreciate this fulsome discussion, Kristan Hawkins. I think it's so important for us to see all sides of this.

HAWKINS: I'd love to talk about --

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: We'll have you back on for sure. Thank you very much.

Well, President Biden today signed into law the first new federal gun reform bill in decades but it comes as the Supreme Court just made it easier for Americans to carry guns in public.

Up next, March For Our Lives co-founder David Hogg joins me live. We're going to discuss the back and forth over guns in America.

[17:28:58]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:33:11]

BROWN: Well, this morning, President Biden signed historic federal gun safety legislation into law. And it addresses one of the most contentious issues in the nation and is the first major gun reform to pass through Congress in decades.

The bill came together in the wake of mass shootings in Uvalde and in Buffalo. And it got support from both sides of the aisle.

But the president acknowledged it falls short of what he and the Democrats had hoped.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, this bill doesn't do everything I want. It does include actions I've long called for that are going to save lives.

It funds crisis intervention, including Red Flag laws. It keeps guns out of the hands of people who are a danger to themselves and others.

And it finally closes what is known as the boyfriend loophole. So if you assault your boyfriend or girlfriend, you can't buy a gun or own a gun. (END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: And after signing the bill, Biden said, god willing, it's going to save a lot of lives.

As this historic legislation is signed into law, America is dealing with a severe case of whiplash over gun laws. On Thursday, the Supreme Court voted 6-3 to strike down a century-old gun law in New York that restricted concealed carry.

State lawmakers are scrambling to respond.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STATE SEN. ZELLNOR MYRIE (D-NY): I can't emphasize enough how disastrous this Supreme Court decision is. We do still have some options but people should be worried about the future of keeping guns off of our streets.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: But even in one of America's most liberal cities, some New Yorkers look forward to carrying a gun.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY NICHOLS, NEW YORK GUN OWNER: Absolutely. Especially because I am qualified to do that and I am trained to do that. And I would feel much safer.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Joining me to discuss, March for Our Lives co-founder, David Hogg.

[17:35:00]

David, you said the Supreme Court made a radical decision by overturning this New York gun law. Explain what you mean.

DAVID HOGG, CO-FOUNDER, MARCH FOR OUR LIVES: Yes, this was not a conservative decision. This was an extremist decision.

This decision went against over 200 years of jurisprudence that had affirmed time and time again that the Second Amendment is talking about a well-regulated militia in the first place.

This is not true Second Amendment supporters, like my father, who are responsible gun owners, want responsible gun ownership to be mandatory, not voluntary.

This was not a law preventing an enormous amount of people from protecting themselves. But in place for over 100 years to help protect people.

This law makes it easier for bad guys to get guns and have guns almost anywhere they want, or this decision, rather.

The important thing to remember is that Americans widely agree, we actually all of us agree that we all want gun safety. We all want peace. We want our families to be safe.

And we know, from countries around the world, one of the best ways to do it to make it harder for the bad guys to get guns in the first place.

BROWN: I'm wondering, given that, but also what happened with President Biden signing this gun bill today, do you feel more or less hopeful?

HOGG: Ultimately, I know we will outlive everybody on the Supreme Court. I'm 22. So I feel hopeful in the long term. I just know that we need to start doing the work now.

I think of the work done by the Federalist Society to bring us here, a group of conservative, extremist law students, who politicized our court and are actively destroying our country, because they enabled it.

So that there's essentially one organization that all screen court justices, need to be checked off for the Senate to confirm them, and that honestly gives me hope in a weird way.

I know, even though I vehemently disagree with the politicization of the court, that the Federalist Society has brought and the destruction it is bringing to our country, it shows that student activism can work in a horrifying way.

But we can work now as young people at universities, like my own, Harvard and, you know, others across the country to put in the work now so that, 50 years from now, we aren't dealing with the same ramifications of this decision.

Not to mention we just got the first gun law passed in my lifetime at the federal level. I was born a year after Columbine. This is the first gun law at the federal level in nearly 30 year, Democrats and Republicans worked together.

It's not enough. It won't stop every shooting. Even if we stop one from happening, that's progress.

BROWN: David Hogg, thank you so much for coming on.

HOGG: Thank you.

BROWN: Well, now that the Supreme Court has overturned federal protection on abortion, things can get so confusing. CNN legal analyst, Loni Coombs, joins me next to explain the legal side of it all.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:42:24] BROWN: Abortion rights activists continue to protest outside the Supreme Court and across the country, like in Dallas.

Texas is among the states with abortion bans triggered by the Supreme Court decision. It was to be implemented 30 days later.

But the Texas attorney general said local prosecutors may start enforcing an abortion ban passed before Friday's ruling.

CNN legal analyst, Loni Coombs, joins me now. She is also a former L.A. County prosecutor.

Loni, things are being handled differently state to state. Abortion is already banned in some states. Others have trigger laws that will take effect. Some states are likely to pass abortion bans in the near future.

How complicated is this going it get when the rules differ across the country?

LONI COOMBS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, Pam, great to be with you.

When people said when Roe v. Wade was wiped out, it turned this into two separate Americas, the states that will have abortions and the states that ban it. But it will be much more complicated.

The states that ban it, there's no limitation organization guidelines on how to do it. They can decide whatever they want to do. After 15 weeks, they can ban it after the heartbeat.

They can say there's exceptions to the mother's health or rape or incest or they can say no abortion ever whatsoever. They have some of these cases -- like you said, they had trigger laws ready to go as soon as Roe was wiped out.

There are some other states like West Virginia have old laws on the book, an 1882 law that banned abortion and made it a felony, a 10-year imprisoned felony, dormant during Roe.

That is the law that's in place. And they have to choose whether to enforce it or change it.

All the states are looking at their laws right now. Some are changing them. Some are making them stronger than before. Because with Roe gone, there are really no limitations as to how they enforce this abortion ban.

BROWN: And to your point, the states with the strictest laws, some third parties can now be at risk at being criminally charged if they help facilitate an abortion.

Who is at risk for prosecution? Some companies are offering to provide financial services to women seeking abortions in states that don't allow them. Family members could House a sister or child before the procedure. COOMBS: Well, once you make abortion a crime, right, then aiding and

abetting comes in. Anyone who assists in that crime, whether it be your mother or giving you a place to stay or a ride to the abortion clinic, they can all be prosecuted criminally for aiding and abetting.

But it's not just criminals, Pam. We have civil actions going on as well. All those employers who said, we'll provide funding for employees who need to go out of state.

Well Senator Marco Rubio just proposed federal legislation that would take tax breaks away from those employers who are trying to help their employees.

[17:45:04]

Then Missouri just put in legislation that is saying they will allow their private citizens to sue fellow resident Missourians who go out of state to get these abortions or the providers who provide them. Sue civilly.

Now, California Governor Newsom is saying, to try and combat that, he is proposing legislation that makes California a safe haven, which would protect people who come to California from liability, whether they help them or whether they're providers.

So you see this back and forth for some of the states that have the ban in their own state. It's not just if they want to go beyond it, they want to stop the women from traveling outside their state to get that abortion.

And they're trying to go this in all different directions, from going after the employers to going to people who give them a ride.

It really is going to be sort of the Wild, Wild West as far as how far they can push this until these cases are starting to be tested in the courts. Then we'll see how far they can actually go.

BROWN: All right, I want to talk about the legality of using the FDA- approved abortion pills received in the mail for women in these states that ban abortion.

And also, just to update viewers, we were having a conversation previously with Kristan Hawkins (ph), and she said 26 women had died after taking the pill. The FDA says 26 out of 4.9 million have had adverse effects after taking the pill.

So clearly, a statistical very small number. But again, adverse effects. No direct link. Wanted to make that clear to our viewers.

Go ahead.

COOMBS: So the access to these pills is also crucial for these women that are in states that are banning abortion, correct?

In fact, President Biden, in his speech yesterday, said, look, there's not much I can do. But two things I will try to protect, that is, one, women being able to travel to out of state to get these abortions.

And, two, their ability to have access to medicinal abortion pills because that really is one way, an easy way to be able to get the treatment if they need it, if they're in a state where it is banned.

So the government, President Biden is going to try to make sure these are still accessible to women.

But once again, this is another area that's up for grabs from these states that can put in these laws on the state level and they'll have to be tested out in the courts.

BROWN: Loni Coombs, thank you so much.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:51:44]

BROWN: A broad majority of Americans say they support the right to legal abortion in the United States and did not want Roe v. Wade overturned.

I want to bring in our senior data reporter, Harry Enten, joining us to run the numbers.

Harry, there's still a big difference when you break things down by party, right?

HARRY ENTEN, CNN SENIOR DATA REPORTER: Absolutely. If you're Democrat, you probably hate this opinion. There are some Democrat, a few who, perhaps, like it. If you're a Republican, you are probably ecstatic about it.

What I will note is, whenever you can get 89 percent of Democrats to agree with something and 38 percent of Republicans, it's pretty popular. And 62 percent agree with Roe v. Wade.

I look back at some decisions that we're seen at the time, you look at 2012, the health care law. The Supreme Court upholding it.

This, to me, is the most unpopular Supreme Court decision, overturning Roe v. Wade, of any controversial decision I can truly recall or look up in the polling.

BROWN: Wow.

There's been a will the of political fighting over filling Supreme Court seats over the past decade. How has people's thoughts about the court changed?

ENTEN: The disapproval has gone up tremendously. You can see it here. And 52 percent of Americans, in a recent poll, said that they disapproved of the Supreme Court job performance. That's up 15 points from two years ago. I will note that 52 percent is the highest disapproval ever recorded.

They've been asking this question a long time. This 52 percent is extremely high.

I would make the argument that the Supreme Court disapproval is high because they are making decisions that the American public do not agree with, such as overturning Roe v. Wade.

BROWN: The court is supposed to look at the law, not politics. But this data is showing that you have the people think that is not what's happening.

ENTEN: Yes. They don't think that's what's happening.

What is the Supreme Court mainly motivated by? Politics or the law? You go back four years ago, the country was split. And 50 percent said politics, 42 percent said the law.

Look at where we are now. That split has widened. And 61 percent say politics, just 34 percent say the law.

I'd make the argument, if would be one thing if the Supreme Court were seen as political and making decisions the country disagrees with. But they're not making decision the country agrees with. And that, I think, is why their disapproval is going up.

BROWN: How does support for legal abortion break down by state?

ENTEN: I think this is obviously the big question going forward. You had the legal analysts on before. This goes back to states.

If you look at an average poll since 2012, you do see there are a number of states where opposition outruns support. It's mostly in the southeast but it's also in the plain states.

And this is where a lot of the states do have those trigger laws that are going to outlaw abortion.

But I will also note, we have a midterm election coming up in about four and a half months. It's going to be very interesting to see Democrat candidates in states like Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, where the clear majority support legal abortion, whether they'll run on that issue.

Because it's not just about federal elections. It's about state-level elections as well.

I think it will be a lot of Democratic candidates for governor who will run on abortion rights. Because, the fact is, it's more popular than not many the majority of states.

[17:55:03]

BROWN: All right, Harry Enten, thank you so much.

ENTEN: Thank you. BROWN: Be sure to check out Harry's "Margins of Error" on your

favorite podcast app or at CNN.com/audio.

Will the late Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg's legacy change now that Roe has been reversed? I'm going to talk to her biographer ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)