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Protests Between Abortion Rights And Pro-Life Groups Clash In Front Of The Supreme Court; Abortion Clinic Worker Describes Atmosphere After Supreme Court Decision; Biden Travels To Germany For The G7 Summit; Threat Of Political Violence; People Found Dead In Tavern. Aired 4-5p ET
Aired June 26, 2022 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[16:00:00]
JIM ACOSTA, CNN HOST: You are live in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Jim Acosta in Washington. It's day three in America after the end of Roe versus Wade. Protesters are gathering outside the Supreme Court as a new CBS- YouGov poll shows the Supreme Court's decision to overturn Roe versus Wade does not reflect the will of the American people. A 59 percent majority of U.S. adults disapprove.
This video from a protest in Greenville, South Carolina, shows the moment police detained several demonstrators. Six people were arrested. A witness telling CNN it all started when counter-protesters leveled misogynistic slurs at women who were advocating for abortion rights. Already abortion is effectively banned in 11 states. More states with trigger laws are expected to ban abortion in the coming days and weeks outlawing abortion after six weeks as in Ohio and Texas. Such a severe restriction that procedures are essentially stopping there.
Today Democratic Senator Elizabeth Warren is blasting the Supreme Court.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D-MA): This court has lost legitimacy. They have burned whatever legitimacy they may still have had after their gun decision, after their voting decision, after their union decision. They just took the last of it and set a torch to it with the Roe versus Wade opinion.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ACOSTA: But Republicans are claiming a major victory and giving one man the credit.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. LINDSEY GRAMA (R-SC): This is a huge victory for the pro-life movement. President Trump deserves the lion's share of credit here. He fought like a tiger to put three constitutional conservative judges on the court.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ACOSTA: And CNN's Sunlen Serfaty is outside the Supreme Court for us keeping an eye on the protests for there.
What are you seeing today, Sunlen?
SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jim, it is emotional and at times tense here down at the base of the Supreme Court. As you can see behind me there is a large crowd that has gathered and it's grown in size over the course of the day. I'll give you just a flavor from the streets here as you see a lot of protesters in opposition.
The majority of people out here today in opposition of that ruling that came down on Friday against Roe, but we have seen some tense moments where there are some counter protesters that were in support of the decision. And the two groups exchanging words back and forth.
But I did speak to a lot of women that were out here today saying that this is something that they want their daughters to see. I spoke with many moms who brought their daughters saying that this is history, this is something that they hope that their daughters over time will not have to deal with.
Now today has largely been peaceful, although tense, as I said. Certainly emotions running high on both ends of the spectrum, but it has been peaceful. The whole D.C. Metropolitan Police is on standby. We see a large police force out here today. But for the moment, Jim, very peaceful while people are protesting and let their voices be heard.
ACOSTA: All right, Sunlen Serfaty, keep an eye on it for us. We appreciate it. Thank you very much.
And joining us now is CNN political analyst and Washington bureau chief for TheGrio, April Ryan. Also joining us CNN political commentator and Republican strategist Alice Stewart.
Alice, you write on a new CNN op-ed that this decision is a victory for U.S. democracy. But we have to point this out. A new CBS poll shows 59 percent of Americans disapprove of the decision including two-thirds of women. So how is it a victory for democracy when a majority of Americans don't agree with this?
ALICE STEWART, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: It's a victory for the pro- life movement and for democracy because what this does, this takes the important issue of abortion out of the hands of nine unelected justices and puts it in the hands of elected representatives in the states, and we all know how democracy is. It is best when it is served of the people, by the people, and for the people, and in this case, closest to the people.
So this isn't a nationwide ban on abortion. That's where a lot of people are getting this wrong. This simply puts the decision back to the states. I saw on one of the signs there that said politicians in robes. That's exactly what this is not. This is -- the justices said this is not in our purview. This should be in the hands of the people in the state. And as Alito said Roe was egregiously wrong from the start, this is not for us to decide and we'll send it back to the states.
ACOSTA: But, Alice, you know, Republicans are talking about a nationwide ban on abortion. That's not sending it back to the states. The pro-life movement wants to go further, the anti-abortion movement wants to go further than this, right?
STEWART: Well, I can tell you what the pro-life movement is doing. They are working now to turn to the states, work on each individual state to continue to further pro-life issues but also simultaneously, Jim, we understand that this is going to have a huge impact on expectant mothers and children. We're also working to support them with crisis pregnancy centers, with alternatives to abortion such as adoption. So there are many avenues in place for the pro-life movement to help those that are going to be directly impacted.
ACOSTA: But one of the avenues they are pushing for a nationwide ban.
STEWART: No, they are working --
ACOSTA: That's not sending it back to the states. I mean, that's just not.
APRIL RYAN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: If they're not pushing publicly for a nationwide ban it's quiet whispers that this will happen because that's what's happening.
[16:05:06]
Look at what's happening in Missouri. The attorney general is already saying, look, this is done. We're going to prosecute, et cetera, et cetera. You have other states saying the same thing. They're on the way. Any Republican-led state -- and this is going back to states' rights. Let's talk about that, too. The Supreme Court not only overturned Roe v. Wade but they put back into the hands of states, states' rights issues that we heard a lot about during Katrina when then-President George W. Bush was saying we were waiting for the state to make decisions.
This is states' rights issue. And it's up to attorney generals who want to make a stand for Republicans who are very confused. You have one, OK, overturning Roe v. Wade, but then you're also talking about the death penalty at the same time. How about that? It's a lot of contradiction within this party where you stand.
ACOSTA: Speaking of contradictions, let's remind everybody of what some of these justices had to say about precedent during their Senate confirmation hearings. Let's watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NEIL GORSUCH, THEN SUPREME COURT JUSTICE NOMINEE: The Supreme Court of the United States has held in Roe vs. Wade that a fetus is not a person for purposes of the 14th Amendment, and the book explains that. SEN. DICK DURBIN (D-IL): Do you accept that?
GORSUCH: That's the law of the land. I accept the law of the land, Senator, yes.
SEN. DIANNE FEINSTEIN (D-CA): What would you say your position today is on a women's right to choose?
BRETT KAVANAUGH, THEN SUPREME COURT JUSTICE NOMINEE: As a judge.
FEINSTEIN: As a judge.
KAVANAUGH: As a judge it is an important precedent of the Supreme Court. By it, I mean Roe v. Wade and Planned Parenthood vs. Casey. It's been reaffirmed many times.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ACOSTA: Alice, didn't these justices mislead the American people?
STEWART: What they said was Roe was law of the land at the time and it certainly was. Look, this was --
(CROSSTALK)
RYAN: They were even asked if they would overturn.
ACOSTA: But let me just -- Alice, you and I have known each other a long time.
STEWART: Exactly.
ACOSTA: They misled the American people. They did. They just did. They just did.
STEWART: They said exactly how they felt at that time during that confirmation hearing, but here's what --
ACOSTA: About one of the most important Supreme Court decisions in American history. I mean --
STEWART: Here's one of the most important things to keep in mind. Roe was handed down 50 years ago. We've had tremendous advances in medical technology since then. Now we're able to see -- doctors can see the development of the fetus in utero. We can see it at 15 weeks, the brain, the hands, the heart, the blood pumping through the bodies. The advances in medical technology have made a tremendous impact on when we value life.
RYAN: And what happens in rape or incest?
STEWART: I think there should --
RYAN: What happens in rape or incest when a young child herself, 12, 13, 14 or 15 is pregnant? You don't allow for that. It's not allowed for. STEWART: I think there should be exceptions for rape, incest and the
life of the mother. I disagree with that aspect that many laws have. I think there should be exceptions in those instances.
RYAN: And then they are criminalized at 12, 13 if they are raped or have incest, they are criminalized. They could go to jail, face jail time, and the doctor could face jail time in certain Republican states if, indeed, they want to make a tough decision and have services that the justices don't want them to have.
STEWART: The penalties in most of the states are on the abortion providers. They're not on the women seeking the abortion, on the abortion providers. And they take --
RYAN: For now.
STEWART: That's the way it is now on the abortion providers.
ACOSTA: Yes. And this is a tough moment to accept for a lot of Americans. I mean, keep in mind what Donald Trump was doing last night. I mean, he's taking a victory lap last night on all of this, celebrating this decision as a victory, but the moment that got all of the attention came from Republican Congresswoman Mary Miller when she took the stage and said this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MARY MILLER (R-IL): President Trump, on behalf of all the MAGA patriots in America, I want to thank you for the historic victory for white life in the Supreme Court yesterday.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ACOSTA: Now her campaign says that she mixed up her words, that she meant to say right to life but, Alice, for context, this is the same lawmaker who quoted Adolf Hitler last year and said whoever has the youth has the future. So there is a troubling record here when it comes to Congresswoman Miller. What's your response to that?
STEWART: I watched that several times. I truly believe she misspoke. She didn't mean to say that. I know you disagree with me vehemently.
RYAN: Yes, I do.
STEWART: I truly think she misspoke and her campaign has said she meant to say right to life. Look, she has a tremendously strong pro- life record. She is a mother and a grandmother and has supported the life issue for -- throughout her entire time in public office. I think she misspoke.
RYAN: OK.
STEWART: Look, people that speak in public often they say a lot of things and they misspeak, and I don't go after other people who shall remain nameless who often cannot remember what state they're in because I think people misspeak and I think that's what happened here. RYAN: OK. So here's the deal. The irony is just too much to bear.
[16:10:04]
She is the congresswoman for the state of Illinois that is going to be the state where many people are sending people to who want to have these services, these hard services that they are planning to have. That's one. Number two, she says that in front of the man who was questioned about his racism. OK.
She doesn't fix her Freudian slip, if you will, in front of him. Now if she made a mistake, I could see her saying white to life, white to life. She said white life, end of story. She did not change it. I hear you. I hear what they said. But why can't she come out and say it? Why can't she say -- because that was, it's making news.
ACOSTA: And the reaction from the crowd, too.
RYAN: It's too much.
STEWART: I think there should be a -- you know, really quick to fix this from a communications standpoint. Having been in a situation --
RYAN: She hasn't done it.
STEWART: Quickly put out a statement on social media and put an end to this. Button it up and people can --
RYAN: I'm not going to spin it. I'm going to call it what it is. She said white life. She could have fixed it and she still could come out and say something now, Alice. White to life or white life. She never put a to inside of that and never corrected it in front of the man who has a problem with the other. I'm sorry, I disagree.
STEWART: Again, I said I think it was -- I think she misspoke, she didn't mean to say it, but this has taken on a life of its own. It's gotten a lot of attention and from a communications standpoint --
ACOSTA: She needs to do more than what her office has done.
STEWART: Yes. Yes.
RYAN: She needs to come out.
ACOSTA: She needs to do more. That's not just --
RYAN: Even if she goes on FOX and says something.
ACOSTA: All right. Ladies, the conversation started before the segment began. I'm sure it's going to continue. But thank you both for coming in. Appreciate it, April and Alice. Thank you.
Coming up, as we continue to watch the nationwide protests over abortion rights, we'll get a firsthand account of what it was like inside a packed abortion clinic inside Louisiana moments after the Supreme Court decision was announced. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:16:02]
ACOSTA: Minutes after the Supreme Court overturned Roe versus Wade on Friday abortion providers in several states had to tell patients that their procedures were canceled. Louisiana is one of those states. At the Hope Medical Group for Women facility in Shreveport some patients were already in the waiting room standing by for their procedure when they learned the news.
Joining me now is an administrator from that clinic, Kathaleen Pittman.
Kathaleen, thank you very much for being with us right now. We were just showing some of the protests outside the Supreme Court and our crew there on the ground tells us that it's growing by the hour so we're going to keep an eye on that. But let's talk about what's happening on your end, Kathleen. Can you describe what it was like inside your clinic when this happened, when it all went down?
KATHALEEN PITTMAN, ADMINISTRATOR, HOPE MEDICAL GROUP FOR WOMEN: Certainly. When we received the news I actually had been glued to my computer all morning long waiting just in case and texting with attorneys as well when we received the news. I did have to go to the front office and explain to the staff and then make the announcement to patients. We were already receiving patients for their first visit. We have a 72-hour waiting period.
The actual procedures that were scheduled for Friday were not due in until after lunch so staff immediately got on the phone to start canceling those appointments. And it was difficult explaining to these young women that they actually have fewer rights than their grandmothers and even great-grandmothers in some cases had. So there were a lot of tears. There were some anger on the part of the staff as well as our patients.
ACOSTA: And what did some of these patients say?
PITTMAN: How can this be? How can they do this? How can they tell me what I can and cannot do. I think there was a big discussion in the waiting room about the justices and what had been said during confirmation hearings. Because that's been coming up time and time again. So, you know, explaining or trying to explain to the patients that despite what had been said during those hearings, it's what they're saying now that actually carries the weight.
ACOSTA: And what is your clinic doing now for these patients?
PITTMAN: We are not continuing procedures. We are continuing with consults primarily so these women can receive their ultrasounds. You have to understand a lot of these women have waited anywhere from four to six weeks just to get in to see us for the first visit. So I think it's important that at this point in time we go ahead and at least get their ultrasounds taken care of, so they know exactly how far along they are. We're doing our best to refer them to other places. The phones, of
course, went absolutely berserk. So we are still trying to figure out. We have not finished canceling for this next week as far as procedures. We had so many lined up for Saturday. We spent all of Friday and part of Saturday just going through Saturday and then of course Monday appointments.
ACOSTA: And now we have this sort of hodgepodge mix of, you know, legality of where abortion is legal and illegal across the country. Are some of your patients planning on traveling to other states? Is there anybody there to help them do that if they are going to try to continue to have this procedure?
PITTMAN: Some are. Some, you know, you have to understand the population we serve basically most of them live at or below the federal poverty level. Most of them are already parents. So they're trying to figure out child care, transportation to visits, taking off work, having a driver, and also the cost, the actual cost for the procedure or the travel.
[16:20:02]
So a lot of these women will not be able to make it. There are nonprofits that are trying to help. But there's a lot of questions in the legality of who can and cannot help some of these women particularly the ones that were coming to us from Texas.
We were already backed up as far as our patients' appointments go because we had such an influx from Texas as of last September. So I mean, we were scheduled two weeks out just for the consult. I have approximately 500 people on the waiting list just asking for an appointment and all of this has to be redirected somehow.
ACOSTA: You have 500 people on your waiting list and now all of those folks will not be seen.
PITTMAN: Correct. The best we can offer at this particular moment is letting them come in and at least have an ultrasound to confirm how far they are in the pregnancy.
ACOSTA: All right. Well, this is having an immediate impact where you are and so many different parts of the country.
Kathaleen Pittman, thank you very much for your time. We appreciate it.
PITTMAN: Thank you.
ACOSTA: Coming up, Russian missiles hit an apartment building in Ukraine's capital just as President Biden begins to meet with leaders at the G7. What message will that send to Vladimir Putin?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:25:49] ACOSTA: Explosions rocked the Ukrainian capital of Kyiv today as Russian forces targeted the city with a series of missile strikes. Ukrainian officials say at least one person was killed and six were wounded when missiles hit a residential apartment block. A 7-year-old girl and her mother were among those injured. Kyiv's deputy mayor says a kindergarten was also hit by missiles but that no one was hurt.
Russia's war on Ukraine is a chief focus of this year's G7 Summit now underway in Germany. President Biden and fellow G7 leader are looking at how to step up the pressure on Moscow but also reduce the ensuing economic challenges costing each of them politically back home.
CNN White House correspondent M.J. Lee joins me now from Austria near the summit site.
M.J., I remember covering one of these summits when it went from being the G8 to the G7 because of what Russia was doing with Ukraine. So this is obviously a huge issue there.
M.J. LEE, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely, and as you said of course the war in Ukraine is a major issue during this G7. What we've seen already on the first day is the president, President Biden, and the other leaders coming together to try to continue to show that there is this united front against Russia, and in terms of ramping up that pressure on the country one announcement that came was a ban on importing new gold from Russia.
This is just one more way in which these leaders are trying to show that they want to squeeze Russia economically. And then the other thing that was a major focus earlier today was the announcement of these global infrastructure initiatives which the U.S. is pledging to spend around $200 billion over the course of five years.
We are talking about money that would go towards things like vaccine development, on fighting climate change, on dealing with clean energy and investing in that. That, of course, is of particular interest at a moment when we are seeing the global economy affected by the war on Ukraine with energy prices on the rise and gas prices on the rise, and the broader theme in all of this, Jim, is the idea that democracies are coming together to go up against autocracies. Take a listen to President Biden talking about this earlier today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We have to stay together because Putin has been counting on from the beginning that somehow NATO would and the G7 would splinter, but we haven't and we're not going to. So we can't let this aggression take the form it has and get away with it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEE: And Jim, you know very well the domestic issues always follow a president around even when he is traveling abroad. Earlier today reporters asked the president whether the Supreme Court ruling a few days ago overturning Roe v. Wade whether that came up at all when he was meeting with these global leaders and he was direct in saying, no, it did not come up. That Ukraine really was the focus.
We obviously know that this has been top of mind for the president but at least for today he says that this was not an issue that came up. That the major focus of the meetings today was the war on Ukraine -- Jim.
ACOSTA: All right, M.J. Lee, thank you very much.
And you're looking live now at a growing protest outside of the Supreme Court here in Washington on the third day after Roe versus Wade was overturned by the justices. These protests appear to be peaceful so far. But the Department of Homeland we should note was quick to issue a warning on Friday against extremist violence as a result of what happened there at the Supreme Court.
We're going to be taking a look at the role of threats and violence in our politics. That's next live in the CNN NEWSROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:30:00]
ACOSTA: Over the past week, Americans witnessed plenty of reminders that more 17 months after the insurrection, the U.S. remains in a place where threats, intimidation and outright acts of political violence continue. Congressman Adam Kinzinger, a Republican member of the January 6th Committee, revealed a letter he says was sent to his home addressed to his wife, that mentioned how they and their five- month-old child would be executed.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ADAM KINZINGER (R), ILLINOIS: There is violence in the future, I'm going to tell you. And until we get a grip on telling people the truth, we can't expect any differently. 2024 is going to be a mess. And wake up, America. Wake up, Republicans, because this is not going to be good for you if you think it is.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ACOSTA: On Monday, an ad from Republican Senate candidate, Eric Greitens, said Missouri featured the former governor holding a shotgun and calling for voters to join him in hunting down RINOs, or Republicans In Name Only. He, then, breaks into a home, with a group of armed men in camouflage, and says, quote, "Join the MAGA crew. Get a RINO hunting permit. There's no bagging limit, no tagging limit, and it doesn't expire until we save our country."
[16:35:02]
ACOSTA: On Tuesday, election officials explained to the January 6th Committee how they resisted enormous pressure from former President Trump and his allies to decertify President Joe Biden's 2020 win. They included top state Republican officials who explain how their lives were turned upside-down.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUSTY BOWERS (R), ARIZONA: There was one gentleman that had the three bars on his chest, and he had a pistol and was threatening my neighbor, not with the pistol but just vocally. When I saw the gun, I knew I had to get close.
BRAD RAFFENSPERGER (R), SECRETARY OF STATE, GEORGIA: My wife started getting a text, and hers came in as sexualized attacks which were disgusting. Some people broke into my daughter-in-law's home. And my son has passed and she's a widow and has two kids. And so, we're very concerned about her safety, also.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ACOSTA: They were not alone. We also heard from two former Georgia election workers, a mother and daughter, who explain what it feels like to be targeted by the most powerful person in the world.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUBY FREEMAN, FORMER ELECTION WORKER, GEORGIA: Do you know how it feels to have the president of the United States to target you? The president of the United States is supposed to represent every American, not to target one. But he targeted me, Lady Ruby. A small business owner. A mother. A proud American citizen who stands up to help Fulton County run an election in the middle of the pandemic.
SHAYE MOSS, FORMER ELECTION WORKER, GEORGIA: I don't want to go anywhere with my mom, because she might yell my name out over the grocery aisle or something. I don't go to the grocery store at all. I haven't been anywhere at all. It's affected my life in a -- in a major way. In every way. All because of lies. For me doing my job. The same thing I've been doing forever.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ACOSTA: But there was more. On Wednesday, "The Washington Post" reported there had been an uptick in the number of violent threats against lawmakers on the January 6th Committee. All the members were likely to receive security details. Then came Friday and the Supreme Court's decision to overturn Roe v. Wade.
There was so much concern inside the Department of Homeland Security that officials there warn in a memo about potential extremist violence that could come in response to that ruling. The memo says, federal and state government officials, including judges, probably are most at risk for violence in response to the decision. As well as warnings that targets could include First Amendment protected events, reproductive and family advocacy, healthcare facilities and faith- based organizations.
All occurring on the same week The memo said federal and state government officials, including judges, probably are most at risk for violence in response to the decision as well as warnings that targets could include first amendment protected events, reproductive and family advocacy health care facilities and faith-based organizations. All occurring on the same week a man pleaded not guilty to a charge of attempting to murder Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh. And that was all in one exhausting week.
Joining me now CNN Political Commentator, and host of "Firing Line" on PBS, Margaret Hoover, and CNN Senior Political Analyst John Avlon. He's also the author of the book "Lincoln and the Fight for Peace."
John, I want to show you this CBS News poll. We're only 19 percent. 19 percent of Americans think that things are going well in this country right now. 81 percent say things are going badly. I have to think part of it, not all of it, but part of it, is that we are so dangerously divided right now -- John.
JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: I completely agree. And those numbers are sometimes a Rorschach test. You know, if you feel that one political party, if you see signs of violence and insurrection, the persistence of the big lie, you know, the Supreme Court decisions that don't reflect the majority of the American people, in addition to inflation, the economy and everything else, people are going to say, yes, things are -- things are going in the wrong direction in our country.
But that not -- may not be that they've lost faith in America. In fact, I don't think they have. It may not be that things are going badly in their own lives. They're just looking at the ratcheting up of rhetoric and the dangerous divisions that are flirting with violence increasingly. And that's -- so, that's a rational response. I don't think it reflects the American character. But it's real and we've got to deal with it.
ACOSTA: Yes. Margaret, there was an abortion rights' protest in Phoenix at the state capitol, where police used tear gas to disperse a crowd that had been pounding on the store -- on the doors of the state Senate building. And then, in Providence, Rhode Island, an off-duty police officer was arrested for allegedly punching a political rival at an abortion rights' rally. He has since dropped out of a state Senate race there. I mean, what does that tell you about how the rest of this summer is going to go?
MARGARET HOOVER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: It doesn't bode well for it. It doesn't bode well for it at all, Jim, does it? Look, we know some are -- I mean, any city, anybody who works in an urban city police force, will tell you that summer is when crime ticks up, petty
[16:40:03]
HOOVER: Petty crime ticks up. Serious crime ticks up, serious crime ticks up. People -- it's warm. People are outside. And things are very unsettled right now in this country, as we've seen from the polling and as we see from the news.
And even when people, as you noted, John noted, sometimes feel fine about things in their own lives. They go on Facebook. They turn on the news. They engage with what's happening in the world. And the news is bad, and the things they hear are bad, and the things their friends are telling them are bad, and the things that are getting liked and spread around the Internet are bad.
And so, there's a feeling of malaise and negativity that subsumes people, even when -- actually, you know, inflation -- you know, people are struggling but it -- we're still in the wealthiest, most successful, free-est (ph) country in the world.
AVLON: Yes.
HOOVER: And there's no perspective.
AVLON: Yes.
ACOSTA: Yes. John, you wanted to weigh if on that?
AVLON: Yes, I -- look, I think it's important that we straighten our civic backbones a bit and regain a sense of confidence and optimism about who we are as a nation, when seen with a sense of perspective despite all the problems we're facing. We've been through far worse as a country. You and I have discussed this, right? I mean, you know, from --
ACOSTA: Yes.
AVLON: -- the civil war, to the Great Depression, to the dislocation and, frankly, (INAUDIBLE) late 1960s. There are differences today. In particular, one political party whose president has perpetuated a big lie and tried to overthrow an election. That is serious. That is unlike anything else.
And that misleadership has percolated a normalized rhetoric of political violence in a way that is real and is dangerous. And we've got to wake up to the fact that tribal -- when politics become tribal, that's when many of the worst things happen. Not only in our democracy but in all others.
At the same time, we need to remember that's a relatively small number of loud folks being artificially amplified on social media and in hyper-partisan hot boxes, like Margaret just said. So, we've got to remember that they're the outliers. They're the strange ones. And the vast majority of Americans are good and decent people. We've got to remember that.
ACOSTA: I agree with you. But, you know, I think part of this, you know, goes into the area of accountability. And I think a lot of Americans want to see accountability after January 6th. You know, we're expected to learn more, soon, about the six Republican lawmakers who sought pardons after the insurrection. To me, that was one of the most damning details that we got --
AVLON: Yes.
ACOSTA: -- in this past week at the hearings. The idea that there are six current members of Congress who allegedly, I guess, felt that they needed a pardon. What's your reaction to that?
HOOVER: They knew they did something wrong. They knew they had undermined the Constitution. They knew they were on the wrong side of history. And, frankly, what's also interesting is that even against the backdrop of January 6th, the Trump White House didn't issue them a pardon. Jared Kushner, who was sitting there, had -- was far more interested in pardons than he was in the whining -- the whining threats of the counsel -- White House Counsel, who was threatening --
AVLON: (INAUDIBLE.)
HOOVER: -- to quit at every turn, didn't issue them pardons. They knew they had done something wrong. They had knew they did something deeply, deeply un-American and unconstitutional.
AVLON: And they thought they could get out of jail -- get an out-of- jail free card. And then, frankly, I think probably one of the reasons we may find out the White House didn't do it, is because it would have been seen as an admission of guilt on their part. But, again, you get the surreal, the surreal, situation we're in where so-called constitutional conservatives are the ones trying to overturn an election. You know, where libertarians are, you know, approving of a reduction in the right to choose.
And, look, there are a lot of good people in all political parties. But the problem is the loudest that the way the extremes have come to dominate the Congressional and elected offices has led to this. And so, we do need a reckoning. Adam Kinzinger is exactly right, when he talks about the need to look in the mirror and remember our best traditions across party lines. It's got to happen.
ACOSTA: Yes, and I think one of the aspects of the hearing from this past week, these hearings from this past week, that really sat with me in an unpleasant way was just how -- I mean, it just seemed that the Trump team was working in overdrive. I mean, they were -- I was, like, this was all they were working on between the election and the insurrection, was how to overturn this election, meeting with lawmakers. You know, meetings with the White House Counsel. You know, I mean, just about everything under the sun.
And, you know, what's fascinating to me about this is undenounced to almost everybody is there was this documentary filmmaker running around inside the White House and getting all of these exclusive details. And, I mean, who would've known? I mean, I was there and I still don't know how I didn't see this guy and his crew roaming around in there.
And I guess he has this forthcoming documentary. I had a chance to talk to him yesterday about this. But here's -- here is a bit of a moment from that documentary that's coming out from Alex Holder, showing Trump praising the insurrectionists. Let's watch.
[16:45:04]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I will tell you, they were angry, from the standpoint of what happened in the election, and because they're smart and they see and they saw what happened. And I believe that that was a big part of what happened on January 6th.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ACOSTA: Yes. Yesterday, we talked to Alex Holder about this, and he was mentioning how -- I mean, shocker, this just in -- Trump showed no remorse when he was talking to him about everything that took place on January 6th. But how critical do you think some of this footage might be?
AVLON: Look, it's visceral because you can see it. It's real time. And it's a reminder, you know, pride cometh before the fall. They wanted to document everything, even that they were trying to overturn an election.
But I think, you know, --
ACOSTA: Right.
AVLON: -- it's the fact that so many documentary camera crews were out there covering the Proud Boys and the president's family, ex- president's family, I think really does hammer home state of mind.
And it's just a reminder, too, when he says that they're smart, what he means is they bought my lies. When he calls on Mike Pence to be strong and other people to be strong, he means be weak. Fold to me and abandon the Constitution for short-term careers. And it's stunning to see how many people were willing to do it. But thank God for those who didn't when it mattered.
ACOSTA: Margaret, a last word from you?
AVLON: Always the last word.
HOOVER: The one -- the one piece I'll just add, to what John said and to your point, Jim, is, you know, what the cameras demonstrate is how deliberate all this was and how well coordinated it was. It's not just what they were working on the time, to you point. But this was a well- coordinated, well-organized, well-executed plan that, fortunately, failed.
But that we have absolutely got to make some changes legislatively in order to prevent that from happening again in the next presidential election in 2024. There are an electoral count act. It's winding its way through the Senate and House of Representatives.
We have got to tighten up that bill, in order to prevent any of these conflicts between rival ballots, rival electors from various states. I mean, the idea that we learned seven states and fake sets of electors. And Ron Johnson, a Senator from Wisconsin, tried to deliver two of them to Mike Pence on January 6th. It's just outrageous.
AVLON: Also, one of the electoral (INAUDIBLE), also algorithm reform. So, we can stop having the craziest conspiracy theories filter up to people's social media, you know, news feeds. And to create an impression of a more divided country and elevate the most nonsensical conspiratorial nonsense, because that's part of what's making us crazy. And that's something also that the Congress can do. This Congress.
ACOSTA: Yes, and I think all those reforms and changes are important. I think -- the one thing I'll come back to you, and I'll continue to come back to you, is accountability. I think if there --
AVLON: Yes.
HOOVER: Yes.
ACOSTA: -- was a plot, if there were crimes committed, if people were acting in this just tremendously un-American fashion, there ought -- there ought to be a punishment for that. There just should. And if there isn't, as people say, it's a dress rehearsal for the next one. So, you guys, we've got to --
AVLON: There are laws on the books.
ACOSTA: There are laws on the books.
HOOVER: Thanks.
ACOSTA: They ought to be used. John and Margaret, thanks so much. Appreciate it. Thanks for your time.
AVLON: All right.
ACOSTA: Coming up, a growing mystery in South Africa after 22 people were found dead inside a tavern. A very disturbing story. A live report next.
[16:48:21]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ACOSTA: We're following a developing and very disturbing story out of South Africa today, where 22 people were found dead inside of a tavern. Some of the victims as young as 13 years old. CNN International Correspondent Larry Madowo is following this story for us. Larry, are investigators finding any clues as to what happened? This is just baffling.
LARRY MADOWO, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It is baffling, Jim. And we just don't have a lot of information right now. Investigators are still figuring out exactly what happened in this tragedy.
A lot of heartbreak, outrage and many questions about how people, as young as 13, were in a tavern that has said to have been overcrowded. And the bodies were slumped on chairs and floors when police were called in about 18 hours ago in the coastal city of East London in South Africa.
A police minister, in South Africa who went to the scene and later to the morgue, was reduced to tears, especially considering how young these people were. This is what he told reporters after.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BHEKI CELE, MINISTER OF POLICE, SOUTH AFRICA: But when you look at their faces, you realize that dealing with kids, kids, kids, kids you have had the story that they are young. But when you see them, you realize that is a disaster.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MADOWO: Authorities are figuring out exactly the cause of death here. They say it was not natural causes. They say it was not a stampede. But they're calling up (ph) autopsies and trying to figure out exactly what happened. And President Cyril Ramaphosa traveling in Germany has sent his condolences and the whole country stunned by this tragedy.
ACOSTA: Yes, Larry, it's just a very sad situation there. Larry Madowo, thank you very much. Stay on top of that for us. We appreciate it.
You may know Arthur Ashe as a legendary tennis champion. But his legacy goes far beyond the court. Here is a preview of the CNN film "Citizen Ashe."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everything is concentrated on the razor's edge, and you forget the score. You forget where you are. I feel like my body is floating within myself.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Arthur Ashe, bright young member of the United States Davis Cup Team.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Some people think we are all brawn and no brains, and I like to fight the myth.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He started becoming a citizen of the world.
[16:55:00]
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Arthur Ashe, the first black player to win the men's Wimbledon single's title.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He had evolved from someone who was analytical to someone who became more about direct action.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: AIDS became another fight for Arthur. And he picked it up like he did every other cause.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He never forgot about his race. And when I say his race, I'm talking about the human race.
ANNOUNCER: "CITIZEN ASHE" premieres tonight at 9:00 on CNN.
[16:55:36]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
