Return to Transcripts main page
CNN Newsroom
America Reckons With Post-Roe Era After Historic Supreme Court Ruling; Amped Up Activist At NYC Pride March After Roe Ruling; Final Opinions Due As Controversial Term Comes To An End; Interview With Rep. Zoe Lofgren (D-CA); Russian Missiles Hit Kyiv As G7 Summit Begins In Europe; 22 Dead In Mysterious Incident At South African Tavern; Anger Grows Over Botched Police Response To School Shooting; Post-Roe Could Have Huge Impact On Black Women. Aired 6-7p ET
Aired June 26, 2022 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[18:00:25]
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED PROTESTERS: Abortion is health care. Abortion is health care.
PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, America now reckoning with life after Roe.
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D-MA): This court has lost legitimacy.
BROWN: The heated debate over the fallout from the left.
REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ (D-NY): This decision and this policy will kill people.
BROWN: And the right.
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): Friday was a glorious day. This is a huge victory for the pro-life movement.
BROWN: Meantime, world leaders resolving to punish Putin for his war on Ukraine.
BORIS JOHNSON, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: If we let Putin get away with it, then the consequences for the world are absolutely catastrophic.
BROWN: Tightening the sanction squeeze with a new ban on Russian gold.
ANTONY BLINKEN, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: They're already having a dramatic effect.
BROWN: And Capitol riot investigators building a blue print for the Justice Department to charge Trump.
REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA): If you follow the evidence where it leads, then you have a duty to prosecute.
BROWN: Two members of the January 6th Committee tell us what's next. (END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: I'm Pamela Brown in Washington. You are live in the CNN NEWSROOM.
Roe reversal and the ripple effect. We are seeing another day of demonstrations across the country after Friday's Supreme Court decision to overturn abortion rights.
That was in Greenville, South Carolina. Scuffles broke out as police tried to separate protesters with opposing points of view. And meantime, the pushback, a coalition of 83 prosecutors nationwide representing 87 million people, publicly vowing not to prosecute people seeking or performing abortions.
And then there is a blunt memo from Homeland Security tonight. The department warning violent extremism is, quote, "likely," especially in states rushing to roll back abortion rights.
CNN has reporters on the ground covering all the latest developments. Let's begin with Sunlen Serfaty. She is right outside the Supreme Court, or actually she is walking now.
What's going on there? What's the mood like, Sunlen?
SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Pam, this demonstration is certainly on the move and it is certainly loud. This is a group of protesters that are in opposition to Friday's historic Supreme Court ruling. And they want to see abortion rights in this country restored again. They were at the Supreme Court for hours and hours protesting earlier today. But they have decided to take this demonstration on the move.
They have marched by the Supreme Court then by Congress, Capitol Hill, along the iconic Independence Avenue, and they are now making their way towards the mile-long walk towards the White House. Organizers say they need to let President Biden know that they are angry with this decision.
Again, a lot of these people here came from many states away to protest. We talked to many women who are here with their young daughters saying that this is historic and important that they understand what's going on in our country.
A lot of passions, though, from both sides of this issue, Pam. But again this is just one group, a large group, a couple hundred people here closing down a major road in Washington, D.C., Independence Avenue, marching from the Supreme Court to the White House.
CAMILA BERNAL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: And I'm Camila Bernal in Los Angeles. We are also on the move. This is the third day of protests here in the downtown Los Angeles area. This group of protesters they heard from a number of speakers just before they started marching. We heard from people who've had an abortion, who said -- and wanted to share their stories. One of them even saying that she'd had an abortion and that she was thankful for it and owed a lot of her successes to that abortion.
This is a passionate crowd. And a lot of these organizers saying they need to meet each other because these are the people that will be fighting with them for the next couple of months. Organizers here telling the crowd to focus on abortion funds because they say that the money and the volunteer work will be needed as California prepares for an influx of women coming to this state from other states where abortions will not be permitted.
And so this is a group that stands with the women in other states saying that they are here for them and that they will continue this fight for them. They say there's a lot of work to be done here in California but they say that that work begins right here on the streets.
[18:05:08]
POLO SANDOVAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Polo Sandoval in New York City where once again the crowds are back to celebrate New York City Pride. And this year however another element of protest as Planned Parenthood was invited to lead the way during this year's parade. A major symbolic move here meant to echo the frustration and the anger that we have seen in New York City in light of the Supreme Court ruling on Friday.
Heavy on the mind of not just spectators but also participants was just Clarence Thomas' separate opinion in which he writes that the court should perhaps revisit rulings including not just contraception but also gay marriage. There are many people here today that told me that they feel that that is where their next focus should be in terms of their fight as today, though, is focused on celebrating, but at the same time, protesting the ruling from Friday.
BROWN: All right. Thanks so much, Polo, Sunlen, Camila. We appreciate it.
And with emotions running high, our reporters are experiencing intense moments as they cover the story. CNN's Nadia Romero takes a closer look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Abortion bans are illegitimate. Forced motherhood is illegitimate.
NADIA ROMERO, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: From Washington, D.C. to Los Angeles and in between, abortion rights protesters continue to voice their anguish following the ruling by the U.S. Supreme Court to eliminate the federal constitutional right to an abortion.
LAINE PEHTA, PROTESTER: I'm angry. I'm fired up. The fight is not over. People did this fight 50 years ago. I guess it's our turn to take the fight up again. It may take us 50 years. But we'll get back.
ROMERO: Smaller gatherings of people celebrating the ruling are also taking place. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Millions of lives will be saved by this decision.
ROMERO: In Cedar Rapids, Iowa, a pedestrian was injured by a truck while trying to legally cross the street in front of the federal courthouse during Friday evening's protests in the city, according to Cedar Rapids Police.
ALEXIS RUSSELL, WITNESSED TRUCK INCIDENT: I look over, I see people trying to push the truck back. And I just instantly got mad and ran over, tried to stop the truck.
ROMERO: Video of the incident shows the truck appearing to push through a group of protesters with one person falling to the ground after making contact with the vehicle.
In Providence, Rhode Island, state Democratic Senate candidate Jennifer Rourke was punched in the face by an off-duty police officer and GOP opponent at an abortion rights rally at the statehouse on Friday night. Rourke told CNN in a statement, the incident, which was caught on video, shows what appears to be Rourke stepping into an altercation at the protest and almost immediately afterwards getting punched in the face by Jeann Lugo.
Lugo turned himself in to the Rhode Island State Police on Saturday. Erik Yanyar, lieutenant for the Rhode Island State Police told CNN. CNN reached out to the Providence Fraternal Order of Police to inquire about the possible legal presentation for Lugo. We did not hear back Saturday night.
In Phoenix, law enforcement used tear gas late Friday to disperse a crowd of abortion rights supporters after they repeatedly pounded on the glass doors of the state's Senate building, Arizona Department of Public Safety spokesperson Bart Graves told CNN.
In Eugene, Oregon, 10 people were arrested on Friday night during a demonstration dubbed "A Night of Rage" in response to the ruling, according to a release from Eugene Police.
Greenville, South Carolina, at least six people were arrested Saturday at a protest that was attended by hundreds of people in downtown, according to a news released by the Greenville Police Department. Video taken by Emily Porter shows the moment police detained several demonstrators in downtown Greenville at the rally.
A video shared with CNN shows police detaining several people and forcing a man to the ground. And officers also seen yelling at protesters to get back, although another officer tells protesters who are jeering the police, we are not on either side.
In Washington, D.C., U.S. Capitol Police arrested two people on Saturday afternoon for the destruction of property after they were accused of, quote, "throwing paint over the fence by the U.S. Supreme Court," USCP tweeted.
Large protests have also been held in Philadelphia and Los Angeles, and in New York City, many demonstrators gathered in Washington Square Park to protest the ruling even though New York state law will remain in place to protect abortion rights.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROMERO: And back here in Mississippi, the state's female attorney general Lynn Fitch has already tweeted out her support for the overturning of Roe v. Wade. Now she must certify this into law. And that takes about 10 days or so, so in that time period, the state's last abortion clinic here in Jackson, Mississippi, says it will keep its doors opened and it will continue to provide abortions to women who need it. And they say they do expect anti-abortion protesters to be outside their clinic throughout that time as well -- Pamela.
BROWN: All right, Nadia, thank you so much.
And joining us now CNN Supreme Court reporter, Ariane de Vogue.
So, Ariane, look, we all a ruling on Roe v. Wade was coming this month. We didn't know when, came Friday, but there are still cases that we're waiting on before this controversial term ends at the high court.
ARIANE DE VOGUE, CNN SUPREME COURT CORRESPONDENT: Right. The term isn't over. There are important cases.
[18:10:02]
One has to do with religious liberty. It's that high school football coach. He wanted to pray at the 50-yard line. He got suspended. The school basically said, look, if we allow this, it will look like we're endorsing religion here. So if the court rules in his favor, it's going to allow more religious speech in the public sphere.
There's also an important immigration case that we're following. And that has to do with Biden trying to get rid of a Trump-era policy that basically pushed back migrants who were trying to come in to do their proceedings and pushed them back to Mexico. The lower courts have blocked Biden from being able to do this. So he is coming to the Supreme Court and say, look, this is my ability to do policy. Plus this has important foreign policy implications. So he wants the Supreme Court to rule in his favor.
And then there's a big environmental case, right? And it has to do with the EPA's authority, right, to regulate emissions from certain power plants. And this case comes as the Biden administration and some scientists are looking so carefully trying to cut back on global warming. So these cases and a few others still will come this week. It's not over yet.
BROWN: Yes. The Kennedy versus Bremerton one is super interesting. I wrote a paper on that in law school. And I think it will come down to ultimately in listening to the oral arguments whether he was off-duty when he prayed at the mid-field. These other cases really interesting as well.
Ariane, thank you so much.
DE VOGUE: Thank you.
BROWN: And coming up this hour, hundred of people injured as part of a stadium in Colombia collapses. Also ahead, did the January 6th Committee just hit a homerun with the damming testimony from Donald Trump's former allies?
Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren has a front-row seat. She's going to join us. I'm going to ask her about that coming up.
You are in the CNN NEWSROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:15:57]
BROWN: Layer by layer, witness by witness, the January 6th Committee has used its first five public hearings to drive home a truly unsettling reality check that this nation came dangerously close to a coup. Last week, state election officials testified how then President Trump and his allies pressured them to decertify Joe Biden's legitimate election win.
And on Thursday, top officials from the Trump Justice Department described how they defied his increasingly manic pressure to act on his baseless claims of voter fraud. This morning, one committee member laid out the stakes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. PETE AGUILAR (D-CA): This is bigger than Donald Trump. This is bigger than one individual. How do we protect democracy and make sure that we stand up for the rule of law and clearly there were individuals who did their job that day in leading up to January 6th. Brad Raffensperger and other elected officials, who truly did their job. But in the future, there will be an option or there is a possibility that people may not do their job and I think that's the problem that we face.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Joining me now is another member of the January 6th Select Committee, Democratic Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren of California.
Hi, Congresswoman, good to see you. So we've been watching the hearings. The committee's hearings have produced important pieces of new information from witnesses at the highest levels of the Trump administration.
I'm wondering, do you think the Justice Department is being as aggressive in its investigation as the committee?
REP. ZOE LOFGREN (D-CA): Well, you know, there is no way for us to know. The Justice Department is not reporting into us. And by the way, they shouldn't be reporting into us.
BROWN: But they are sending letters to you saying, demanding that you turn over transcripts and so forth.
LOFGREN: Well, we're very surprised by that. I mean, obviously, we're a legislative branch committee and they are, you know, an executive branch agency, the prosecutors, and, you know, we're certainly not an arm of the Justice Department. However, we are going to, we're not going to stand in the way of their prosecution and the -- we will share it in an appropriate way our information.
BROWN: It sounds like we might have another visitor on the show there in the background. So this past week, the three top Justice Department officials testified in detail that Trump was relentlessly attempting a coup. These were the top, some of the top Trump White House officials. right, or administration officials, Republicans.
LOFGREN: Right.
BROWN: Why does the committee still need to hear publicly from White House counsel Pat Cipollone and what is the latest with the committee's invitation for him to testify publicly?
LOFGREN: Well, we would very much like to hear from Mr. Cipollone. And we have asked him and we have not given up on hearing from him. We think he has an obligation to come in and the tell the committee what he knows. And we're hoping that he will still do that. You know, we don't have that agreement yet. Let's just put it that way.
BROWN: Right. And as you know, he has said he has been cooperating with the committee and he just doesn't want to testify publicly. That's what we are being told by sources. So I'm wondering, will the committee subpoena him? Is that under discussion?
LOFGREN: Well, we have, as we said in one of our hearings, we had an informal interview with him. And in fact, we did quote from the notes at one of the informal hearings. Whether or not we'd subpoena him, I can't say. As you know, these subpoena requests sometimes end up in endless litigation and we are pursuing this very diligently, but we don't have time to spend a year in court. So I don't know the answer.
But let me just say this. He should come forward and tell the truth. I think that that would be important. We've learned a lot about what he did and said from others, but there are some things we'd like to discuss with him directly.
[18:20:02]
BROWN: Like what?
LOFGREN: Well, I'm not going to get into that interview right now. But I will say, I am sure he is aware of what we would like to ask him as are we.
BROWN: And in terms of the subpoena, I'm sure that the fact that DOJ declined to subpoena Meadows and Scavino for defying the committee subpoena, that would factor into the decision-making on that front. And we also know that there are one-on-one conversations between then President Trump and his vice president Mike Pence. LOFGREN: Right.
BROWN: Considering what we have learned, is there still a chance that the committee might call Mike Pence?
LOFGREN: Well, I wouldn't rule it out. On the other hand, we have heard and learned an enormous amount about what the vice president did and said and heard from others around him. So really, we've learned an enormous amount from his people.
BROWN: And you wouldn't rule it out. OK. So I got to ask another one. Where do things stand with Ginni Thomas, wife of Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas? Have you heard back from her? Is she willing to come to testify behind closed doors about her connection to these efforts to overturn the election?
LOFGREN: Well, as you know, we sent her a letter asking her to come in. It was sent privately. She made a decision to share it publicly, which she had every right to do. And she did say to the media that she was looking forward to coming in and talking to the committee and we take her at her word that she will be coming in to talk to us.
BROWN: Well, have you heard back from her, though? Or have you just -- are you just referring to what you (INAUDIBLE) from her?
(CROSSTALK)
LOFGREN: I don't know where that is.
BROWN: OK.
LOFGREN: Obviously that is negotiated, the time and place, between her lawyers and our staff and I don't know the precise status of that. But since she said publicly she was eager to come in, I expect that that's the truth. Why would she lie and say that if she didn't mean it?
BROWN: Your committee has weaved new information with what the public already knew painting this big picture. New headlines have emerged from every hearing. How much new information or testimony will we see in the upcoming hearings? Can you give us any insight on what to expect?
LOFGREN: Well, there will be new things. We've gotten new information coming in, by the way. And so we need to evaluate you know really a very large amount of new information and see how much of it is relevant and how much isn't. But we also have new information that had already been uncovered that we plan to unveil as the story unfolds for the public.
So, you know, I think the basic outlines of what happened have always been known, but every hearing we've been able to provide additional insight and details that I think have helped fill out the picture for people.
BROWN: All right. Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren, thank you so much for joining us on this Sunday. LOFGREN: Any time .
BROWN: And you are in the CNN NEWSROOM. Still ahead tonight, we are live in Europe, where President Biden is meeting with G7 allies. Hear the warning from the British prime minister on what he thinks is at stake if Putin wins his war in Ukraine.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:27:43]
BROWN: As President Biden and G7 leaders were gathering in Germany, Russian missiles pounded the Ukrainian capital of Kyiv. An apartment complex was hit and the mayor says one person was killed and that a 7- year-old girl was among the injured.
As Russia steps up its attacks, British Prime Minister Boris Johnson told CNN's Jake Tapper that Putin must be stopped.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHNSON: And if we let Putin get away with it and just annex, conquer sizable parts of a free independent sovereign country, which is what he is poised to do, if not the whole thing, then the consequences for the world are absolutely catastrophic.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Following this story is CNN's M.J. Lee. She is at the summit.
So, M.J., what are G7 leaders proposing to do about Putin?
M.J. LEE, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Pam, of course, a top priority for the G7 leaders is to continue putting the pressure on Vladimir Putin and try to figure out ways to make him continue paying a price for Russia's continued aggression in Ukraine. It is why we saw the G7 leaders announcing today a new import ban on new gold from Russia, given that it is a huge export item for Russia. They want it to be another way in which the country feels a squeeze economically.
Now I will note that Russia has not been the only focus of the G7 summit so far. Another initiative has been trying to counter China as it is growing its influence economically. So what we saw was the announcement of a number of global infrastructure initiatives aimed at developing countries. Things like vaccine programs, dealing with climate change and investing in clean energy initiatives.
Obviously, that last one is so critical given that we have seen prices go up for energy. That has led to consumers having to pay more for gas prices. We heard President Biden talking a little bit about this issue specifically. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The entire world is feeling the impact of Russia's brutal war in Ukraine and on our energy markets. We need worldwide effort to invest in transformative clean energy projects. To ensure the critical infrastructure is resilient to changing climate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[18:30:07]
LEE: Now, as you know, Pam, President Biden left for his trip to Europe after such a consequential week at home and earlier today, reporters that were with President Biden asked him whether the news of the Supreme Court overturning Roe v. Wade, whether that came up at all in his meetings with G7 leaders. He said directly that that did not come up at all, that that was not related to the discussions that they were ask having about Ukraine.
So the president, of course, has been thinking very much about this very big news back at home but trying to make clear that for the time being at the G7, Ukraine is really a major focus -- Pam.
BROWN: All right, M.J. Lee, thank you so much.
Well, a deadly mystery is under investigation in South Africa. The bodies of 22 people were found in a tavern and the person leading the autopsy says none of the victims died of natural causes.
CNN's Larry Madowo is following this story for us.
LARRY MADOWO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Pam, there is outrage and heartbreak in South Africa tonight and a whole lot of questions about how a tragedy like this happened in the coastal town of East London in South Africa. Children as young as 13, the ages range between 13 and 17, according to provincial authorities, dead and determined the bodies strewn on chairs and tables and on floors in a tavern where it's exactly not clear how they got there.
The legal drinking age in South African is 18 and South Africa's Police Minister Bheki Cele who went to the scene (INAUDIBLE) was reduced to tears after seeing the bodies. Later this is what he told reporters.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BHEKI CELE, SOUTH AFRICAN MINISTER OF POLICE: When you look at their faces, you realize that they're little kids, kids, kids, kids. I've had this story, but when you see them you realize that it is a disaster.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MADOWO: It's not clear at this stage what is the exact cause of death. These autopsies are being carried out and toxicology reports will be expected as well to tell a better picture. The South African President Cyril Rhamaposa has sent his condolences and a statement from his office also said while the president awaits more information on the incident, his thoughts are with the families of lost children as well as families who are awaiting confirmation of how their children may have been affected.
An entire nation is stunned tonight, trying to figure out how to avoid a similar tragedy and how this could have been avoided to start with -- Pam.
BROWN: So awful. Larry, thank you.
And still ahead on this Sunday, a terrifying and deadly scene in Colombia. A stadium full of people crumbles and collapses during a bullfight. More shocking video on what we are learning about the aftermath next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:37:19]
BROWN: At least four people are dead and dozens more are seriously injured today after part of a crowded stadium collapsed during a bullfight in Colombia. Now this aerial view right here of the collapse shows how packed that stadium was when it fell. And you can see right here people were literally running for their lives. No official word yet on what caused that part of the building to crumble.
And turning now to the growing anger in the aftermath of the Uvalde school massacre. The school district put Pete Arredondo, that embattled school police chief, on administrative leave last week after public safety officials testified he entered the school just minutes after the gunman and that more than an hour passed before officers stormed the classroom. The attack left 21 people dead, including 19 children.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEVE MCCRAW, DIRECTOR, TEXAS DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY: Three minutes after the subject entered the west building, there were a sufficient number of armed officers wearing body armor to isolate, distract and neutralize the subject. The only thing stopping the hallway of dedicated officers from entering room 111 and 112 is the on-scene commander, who decided to place the lives of officers before the lives of children.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Joining me now is Texas defense attorney Brian Wice.
Brian, good to see you again. So you believe these officers could be facing potential criminal exposure. Tell us why.
BRIAN WICE, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Pamela, you need to understand that we are minutes into the first period of an investigation that encompasses literally mountains of evidence, videos, crime scene photos and most important of all establishing a timeline. But in light of the sound that you just played from Commander Steve McCraw of the DPS, our state police, if I'm a prosecutor, I'm looking at the felony of endangering or abandoning a child under 15, which makes it a felony if you knowingly, intentionally, recklessly or with criminal negligence put a child in a position where they're subject to imminent bodily injury or death.
And given what we know now, and we seem to know more with every passing day, it seems to me that that, in addition to the potential offense of tampering with a government document, if for instance the comment that Pete Arredondo made to the media about trying a number of keys before the janitor finally got there, it's not a crime to lie to the media. But if you put that in an offense report, then that's a separate offense, Pamela.
BROWN: And as we heard Arredondo, I mean, he spoke to a local paper in Texas. He's been largely quiet. But he did do this interview through his attorney. It was a written interview. And he said he didn't know he was the on-site commander, you know, there was clearly mass confusion. Could any of that be a defense?
[18:40:02]
WICE: Not really. First of all, any of your viewers who have been to watch "Law & Order" know that any statement a defendant makes in or out of court that is ultimately proven to be false can be admitted at his trial, if there is a trial, not only to impeach his credibility but to show what prosecutors love to call consciousness of guilt. And the fact that he doesn't believe he was the on-scene commander, with all due respect to the chief, that's why the Good Lord built the courthouse so we can sort out questions of fact exactly like that.
BROWN: I want to talk about the DA, Christina Mitchell Busbee. We haven't heard from this woman and she is fully in the eye of the storm, right. What can you tell us about her background, her experience, and why she's been so radio silent over the last month, much to the chagrin of reporters covering the story and families?
WICE: Well, Pamela, to paraphrase William Shakespeare, some folks are born famous, some achieve fame and some have fame thrust upon them. A lot of folks don't know who this woman is but she's about to become one of the most famous DAs in Texas. And she's earned her turn in the spotlight. 24 years as a lawyer. Eight and a half years as a prosecutor in Uvalde specializing in border prosecutions, 18 months as the elected criminal district attorney, spent time as a defense attorney doing trial and appellate, and she's board certified in criminal law, an honor that less than 1 percent of all Texas lawyers ultimately obtain.
And while I know that there is some concern, that as you said, she's been radio silent. What I've learned the hard way as a special prosecutor and what I know Miss Busbee recognizes, is that before the facts are in, you as a prosecutor have to recognize that sometimes silence is golden. And she doesn't answer to me or to you, or to anybody else, except the citizens in Uvalde County who elected her and the loved ones of those 21 people who have met such a terrible, terrible end last month -- Pamela.
BROWN: I want to ask you about this Texas State Senator Roland Gutierrez who's suing the Department of Public Safety claiming that it is withholding documents related to the shooting. Do you expect to see anything come from that, given the fact there is this ongoing investigation as you pointed out?
WICE: And that's a great question because while the Texas Public Information Act is premised on the notion that sunlight is the best disinfectant, there are exceptions. One of which as you just pointed out is an ongoing criminal investigation.
That exception, however, doesn't apply to members of the legislature such as Senator Gutierrez, provided he signs an agreement that he will keep that information from the public and confidential, and if for some reason DPS says, no, we're not going to give it to you, he doesn't have to get an opinion from the attorney general like most of us do. He can go right to court, sue and get attorney's fees. My money is on the senator.
BROWN: All right. Brian Wice, thank you so much.
Well, you are in the CNN NEWSROOM. Coming up, I'm going to talk live to January 6th Select Committee member Jamie Raskin as the committee build its case with testimony from Trump allies. Plus Ohio Republican Congressman Warren Davidson joins me to discuss the Supreme Court reversal of Roe versus wade and the bipartisan gun safety bill that is now in effect.
But first, black women could be hit hardest by the Supreme Court's decision to overturn Roe v. Wade. I'll discuss the impact and what can be done about it with Kanika Harris from the Black Women's Health Imperative, up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:48:02]
BROWN: Well, the Supreme Court ruling striking down Roe v. Wade could impact women of color more severely than anyone else. A Duke University study estimates that a complete abortion ban could increase black maternal deaths by 33 percent. Black women are already three to four times more likely to die giving birth compared to white women.
I want to bring in Kanika Harris from the Black Women's Health Imperative.
Kanika, those are some damming stats and this is personal from you. Talk to us about your own experience as a black woman having an abortion and what impact this ruling will have on women of color.
KANIKA HARRIS, MATERNAL HEALTH DIRECTOR, BLACK WOMEN'S HEALTH IMPERATIVE: Absolutely. Thank you for having me. I never thought in my 40s that I would be in a situation where I would have to contemplate an abortion. I was married, I had children, you know, substantially employed. And didn't know that I would end up in that situation. However, due to my previous pregnancies, due to experiencing trauma and racism during pregnancy and delivery, it was recommended that if I were to get pregnant again, that my uterine wall is stretched so thin from my pregnancies having two twin pregnancies, that it wasn't a good idea for me to move forward with the pregnancy. And despite our best efforts, my husband and I, we found ourselves
pregnant when I had 1-and-a-half-year-old twins and we had to make the very difficult decision to pursue that pregnancy or terminate that pregnancy. You know, living in D.C., recognizing that black people in D.C. represent 50 percent of the population in D.C. but 90 percent of the maternal deaths in D.C. So --
BROWN: Why do you think that is?
HARRIS: It's a lot of reasons. One, it's racism and racist care. Both disrespectful care in hospitals I've gone to two different hospitals in D.C. to deliver and have received disrespectful care where I wasn't listened to. And additionally, it's racism over our life course.
[18:50:03]
You know from the time we're born to the time we reach reproductive age, there is 20 years of research to show that the stress that we endure because of racist policies, because of trying to overcome and circumvent the system, to get terminal degrees to succeed that weathers our reproductive organs and can put us in higher risk when we're pregnant.
BROWN: Your organization's Web site says your mission is to lead the effort to solve the most pressing health issues that affect black women and girls in the U.S. So how does the SCOTUS ruling impact that mission?
HARRIS: So it just reenergizes us in our mission. We started reproductive health 40 years ago so we will just continue the fight. We will, you know, develop allies and work with our allies. Our reproductive other organizations that we work with to continue to fight to make sure that abortion access, it's accessible, it's safe and that we work on the frontend in terms of contraception as well.
BROWN: I want to get to another question about, we heard from Asa Hutchinson, the governor of Arkansas, and AOC today. So Governor Hutchinson essentially said he is comfortable with the government forcing a woman to carry out a pregnancy. Here's how Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez reacted to that this morning.
OCASIO-CORTEZ: The state of Arkansas and Governor Hutchinson governs over a state that has a third highest maternal mortality in the United States. 71 percent of the women who die are black women as well. This is a state that has 26 percent child poverty, where 1 in 4 children are living in extreme or are living in poverty in the state of Arkansas and forcing women to carry pregnancies against their will kill them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: I want to get your reaction to what we heard her say and also the fact that many of these states that have abortion bans have exceptions for the mother if the mother's life is at risk. There's an exception for her to get an abortion. I want to get your take on that as well. HARRIS: Yes. It angers me. It's personal because I had to make the
gamble of whether I would be here for my own children, you know, as someone who financially supports my family. Would I carry out a pregnancy and die, and not be here for the children that are here, that I have, and not be here for my husband and my family. So those are the decisions that are at play when you say that a woman has to carry out a pregnancy that can be extremely high risk that she could die from.
BROWN: But do you accept the exceptions? Do you trust those exceptions essentially for women, for the mothers who could have their lives at risk, they have an exception to get an abortion in some of these states?
HARRIS: If we trust those women and trust black women to know what those health risks are, to know that they are at health risk as well and those medical providers also believe them, then that would be at that. But no, right now I don't trust them to make a decision for us to carry out a pregnancy and trust that medical risk.
BROWN: All right, thank you so much, Kanika Harris. We appreciate it.
HARRIS: Thank you.
BROWN: Well, now that federal abortion protections are over, some Republicans are raising the idea of a national abortion ban. I'm going to get Ohio Republican Congressman Warren Davidson's thoughts on that and a lot more coming up on the show. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:57:12]
BROWN: In his opinion overturning Roe versus Wade Justice Clarence Thomas suggests the court revisit other rulings like same-sex marriage and contraception. Still ahead tonight on NEWSROOM, I'm going to talk to Jim Obergefell. He was the lead plaintiff in the 2015 case that legalized same-sex marriage. I was standing next to him as you see when President Obama called after the landmark decision came down.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JIM OBERGEFELL, LEAD PLAINTIFF IN SAME-SEX MARRIAGE CASE: Yes, Mr. President.
BARACK OBAMA, FORMER PRESIDENT: (INAUDIBLE), I figured you when I saw you (INAUDIBLE). I just want to say congratulations.
OBERGEFELL: Thank you so much, sir. I think it was wishes --
OBAMA: You know, your leadership on this changed the country.
OBERGEFELL: I really appreciate.
(END VIDEO CLIP) BROWN: What a moment that was. Up next -- next hour, I should say, I'll ask Jim his concerns about the possible challenges to same-sex marriage.
