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January 6 Committee Holding Surprise Public Hearing This Afternoon; Ex-Meadows Aide is Mystery Witness for Surprise Hearing; NATO Summit Could Help Determine Next Phase of War in Ukraine. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired June 28, 2022 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, everyone. Top of the hour, I'm Poppy Harlow.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Jim Sciutto reporting from Madrid for the NATO summit.

Any moment now, President Biden, he will sit down with the Spanish prime minister, this as he begins several meetings with NATO leaders over the coming days. These talks intended to demonstrate the alliance's resolve in the face of Russia's increasingly ruthless invasion of Ukraine. Allies expected to discuss not only sending new and more powerful weapons to Ukraine, but also plans to bolster NATO's own forces along its border with Russia, putting some 300,000 NATO troops on alert for reaction to any emerging threats.

HARLOW: We are also following major developments and changes overnight on Capitol Hill. This afternoon, the committee investigating the January 6 insurrection will call a special witness in this surprise public hearing. That is former White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows' aide, former aide, Cassidy Hutchinson. She's expected to testify starting at 1:00 Eastern today.

Last week in videotaped testimony, she revealed the names of several prominent Republican lawmakers who sought blanket pardons.

So, let's begin with that, with our own Justice Correspondent Jessica Schneider. Jess, there wasn't going to be a hearing this week at all. And then when one was announced, we didn't know who the witness would be. Very secretive, very different from the other hearings in the lead-up, why?

JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, a last-minute announcement and possibly, Poppy, to try to keep things secret because of concerns about security. The committee very concerned about the security of Cassidy Hutchinson, other possible witnesses. That might be why it was kept under wraps up to this point.

Cassidy Hutchinson in her appearance today, she has the potential to deliver plenty of bombshells, and that's because she was front and center inside the White House. She was really privy to all kinds of actions, also conversations from the people who are the focus of this investigation, including the former president, chief of staff, Mark Meadows, Rudy Giuliani, Republican members of Congress.

And the committee, interestingly, has also hinted that throughout her three private meetings with members, she's broken what they call new ground and perhaps that's some of what we'll hear today.

So, we know that she's told the committee how her boss at the time, Mark Meadows, approved of those hang Mike Pence chants that were coming from the rioters who stormed the Capitol and then how Trump complained about how Pence was being hustled to safety just as the Capitol was being breached.

So, here is what she told the committee about the people leading the charge to move forward that fake electoral plot as well.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who do you remember being involved in those early discussion around the Thanksgiving time regarding having alternate electors meet?

CASSIDY HUTCHINSON, FORMER SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Giuliani, several of Mr. Giuliani's associates, Mr. Meadows, members of Congress, although it's difficult to distinguish if the members that I'm thinking of were involved during Thanksgiving or if they were involved as we progressed through December.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHNEIDER: So, Cassidy Hutchinson could expand more on that fake electoral plot which we know the Justice Department is already investigating. And she's also talked about several members of Congress who inquired about pardons around January 6th, naming names, plus some news outlets have reported that she saw Mark Meadows burn documents after his meeting with Congressman Scott Perry. We know Congressman Perry had also been pushing that scheme to overturn the election.

So, really, here, Hutchinson has a lot of inside details. And, finally, Poppy, it's interesting, Hutchinson recently ditched her Trump-affiliated lawyer. And now, she's being represented by a longtime Justice Department official. He was a career official and then a political appointee for Jeff Session. His name is Jody Hunt. He left DOJ in recent years to return to private practice. So maybe now that she seems to be unbound by any Trump connections because she previously did have a Trump-affiliated lawyer, she's potentially could be ready to tell all and that seems to be potentially what the committee is promising here, Poppy.

HARLOW: It sounds like it. Jessica Schneider in Washington, thanks very much for the reporting.

Also this development yesterday, late new details this morning about former Trump election attorney John Eastman. A video from Fox News shows FBI agents seizing his cell phone. Eastman says, the warrant FIB agents used is, quote, invalid on its face. This is part of the Department of Justice investigation into January 6th, separate from the committee's investigation.

CNN Senior Crime and Justice Correspondent Katelyn Polantz joins us now. Talk to us more about this.

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What more -- what happened, right? They unlocked it, it seems, with facial recognition. He is saying it was not okay with him. And what does this tell you about the DOJ probe, big picture?

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Well, Poppy, every single week, we are saying that this Justice Department investigation is aggressive and it is expanding, and, indeed, that is what we appear to have now.

So, John Eastman revealed that this search took place yesterday, first in a court filing, then he spoke about it on Fox News. And what that story that he told is that six FBI agents approached him in New Mexico last Wednesday when he was leaving a restaurant with his wife and a friend. They patted him down, they found an iPhone, his iPhone on him. They were able to obtain access to it through biometrics, his facial recognition, and then they were able to obtain his email communications that were on that phone.

So, here is how Eastman characterized this and his objections to it on Fox News last night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN EASTMAN, SUBPOENAED BY JAN. 6 COMMITTEE: The authority to seize all of my information in modern smartphones, that's access to all my private financial records. I'm an attorney. It's access to all of my privileged communications with nearly 100 different clients that I have currently.

The very reason we have the Fourth Amendment is to prevent that kind of abuse, and yet that's what they're doing here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

POLANTZ: So, the reason that Eastman is in court now is because he's trying to stop the Justice Department from accessing this information. But the bottom line is that criminal prosecutors, or, I'm sorry, criminal investigators have already attained what is on John Eastman's cell phone and he is not the only person whose investigations are pulled into this ongoing Justice Department investigation into January 6.

We already know that the Justice Department has subpoenaed communications from electors in seven states that gathered to become fake electors for Donald Trump after the election, even though Trump lost those states. We also know that Jeffrey Clark, a top Justice Department official, was searched, his home was searched in Virginia, last Wednesday, the same day as the search of Eastman. Poppy and Jim?

HARLOW: Okay. Katelyn Polantz reporting, thanks very much for all of those updates.

Let's talk about all of it with CNN Political Director David Chalian and Caroline Polisi, a federal and white collar criminal defense attorney and lecturer at Columbia Law School. Good morning, guys.

Caroline, let me begin with you. So, let's start where Katelyn left off, and that is Eastman. Not for nothing, on the same day, the same day as Jeffrey Clark's home was raided by the FBI, John Eastman's phone was searched by federal officials there. Both of those things happening would require a judge to find probable cause if there was evidence of a crime. What does this tell you about what the DOJ is doing right now?

CAROLINE POLISI, FEDERAL AND WHITE COLLAR CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Absolutely, Poppy. And, you know, one of the first arguments that Eastman made in that memorandum that Katelyn was reporting on was that this was an unconstitutional search and seizure because it was conducted through actually the office of inspector general. Well, the office of inspector general is sort of the internal DOJ watchdog. And you noted that there was a concurrent seizure on Jeffrey Clark's home. He obviously worked at the Justice Department.

Eastman was complaining saying how can the OIG perform this when I never even worked at the Justice Department. Well, it gives you a big clue there that the concurrent search and seizure of Jeffrey Clark's home, obviously, there's something going on with the office of inspector general, not the least of which could be an investigation into a potential conspiracy to obstruct the official counting of the votes or, you know, any number of things.

HARLOW: David, turning to the hearing that's going to begin in about three hours' time with Cassidy Hutchinson, a key witness, obviously, you heard all that Jessica reported of all she has already testified and then the reporting this morning that she has said that she saw Mark Meadows burn documents after meeting with Congressman Perry.

The fact that they are holding a hearing on a week they weren't going to hold one, didn't tell anyone until our reporting and others found it out and that there were security concerns about the safety of the witness, what does it all tell you about the significance of this afternoon?

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Well, it certainly raises the stakes on this hearing, there's no doubt about that, Poppy. I mean, none other than John Dean said last night when this all emerged, like the committee better deliver here because of all of the things you just said, they got to know that now folks are going to be looking to see why this had to be so secretive, last minute, what are the goods that are going to be delivered here.

So, I do think it raises the stakes for the committee and puts a little bit more pressure on them. But I also think that we should be on the lookout to see if the committee is going to be fully transparent with the American people about why all the mystery, why did this have to happen at the last minute.

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I think we should be looking and asking, obviously, we will, no doubt, our reporters on the Hill will, but looking for the committee, trying to be as transparent as possible with the American public about this.

HARLOW: I mean, I think you make an interesting point, David, because, correct me if I'm wrong, generally, before these hearings, committee members have gone all over television to talk about them. And we haven't really seen that in the last 24 hours from them.

CHALIAN: Yes. With all of the previous hearings also, the committee itself has like put out teaser clips previewing what the next hearing is going to be about, including some of the videotaped depositions. This was supposed to be a dormant period for the committee and they quickly put this together. So, I do hope we hear from the committee sort of the why behind all of that.

HARLOW: Are there any legal reasons, Caroline, why something would be -- I don't want to say rush, I don't know if they've been preparing for this moment for a long time, but that you would have the urgency of a hearing like this with just one witness right now?

POLISI: Yes. I mean, there're all sorts of speculation, Poppy. We heard earlier in the package how Cassidy Hutchinson switched attorneys. She's sort of the next best thing we've got to Mark Meadows. Remember, Mark Meadows stopped cooperating with the committee shortly after turning over a slew of text messages. She was referred actually by the January 6th committee to the Department of Justice for criminal contempt for not cooperating. Cassidy Hutchinson, again, is sort of the next best thing we have there, talking about things that happened surrounding that day.

I'd also note Liz Cheney made a point of calling out Pat Cipollone for not testifying before the American public. Cassidy Hutchinson reportedly also has information regarding what Pat Cipollone told Donald Trump about sort of the legal merits of this scheme to insert this fake slate of electors. So, I think that there are already bombshells that the committee has within the testimony that she was given and we'll see whether or not there are more today.

CHALIAN: Poppy, can I just add? Just think about this moment for Cassidy Hutchinson, right? I mean, she is a young White House aide, just a few years ago, a White House intern. This is somebody who has not been in the limelight at all and has clearly agreed to come forward and hold this -- you know, be a witness and provide testimony in this high-stakes hearing. Her entire life is being upended right now.

Obviously, you want to make sure, if you're the committee, that there's a good reason for that, that this is not willy-nilly and I think that's what people are going to be looking for.

HARLOW: I think you make an excellent point. I thought the same thing when I read that she had been an intern just a few years ago. Can you imagine?

Caroline, thank you. David, great to have you. We'll watch closely obviously this afternoon. Jim?

SCIUTTO: Still ahead here in Madrid, as we follow these consequential NATO summit meetings, we do new CNN reporting on the White House's less optimistic outlook on one aspect of the war in Ukraine. I'm going to get reaction from a Ukrainian member of parliament as the war continues to rage there. That's coming up.

HARLOW: Also, federal investigators are now arriving on scene in Missouri where at least three people were killed after this Amtrak train hit a dump truck and overturned. The key evidence they're searching for, later this hour.

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SCIUTTO: Just moments ago, President Biden arrived for a meeting with the Spanish prime minister, Pedro Sanchez, this, the first of several meetings, at this NATO summit. Official meetings among the alliance members begin tomorrow with the key themes expected to be defense spending for all members of the alliance but also sending more weapons and support to Ukraine in its defense against the Russian invasion, but also bolstering NATO's own force deployments on its eastern flank facing Russia with growing concerns about Russia's threat to NATO alliance members.

CNN White House Reporter Natasha Bertrand is with me here in Madrid over at the site of the NATO summit.

Natasha, I understand you're getting new reporting about the White House's assessment of the progress of the war in Ukraine becoming, you might say, less optimistic. What do we know?

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: You should that, Jim, that's right. So, essentially, the White House is becoming increasingly pessimistic about the possibility that Ukraine is going to be able to take back all of the territory that it has lost since February 24th. And, of course, that is the line that Zelenskyy has drawn when it comes to a Ukraine victory, saying that, ultimately, what Ukraine wants is to go back to these February 23rd territorial lines.

The White House now and Biden administration officials that we speak to say that that is becoming increasingly unlikely, especially given the amount of progress that we have seen Russian forces make in the eastern part of the country over the last several weeks. They have a lot of momentum. They have taken some key cities there and they now control over half of the Donetsk region of the Donbas in Eastern Ukraine.

So, there is some trepidation here about what Zelenskyy has been saying in terms of the Ukrainians' goal to take back all of that territory, especially given what he said yesterday, according to one of our own reporting, which is that he wants to see this war end and Ukraine win by the end of 2022.

Now, it's not just White House officials who are telling us that that is unrealistic but it is also NATO officials and people familiar with western intelligence.

[10:20:01]

They say that it is difficult to imagine that Ukraine is going to be able to take back all of that land.

And the question that that raises then is, has the Ukrainian state here essentially shrunk. The first phase of the war, of course, was about Ukraine's sovereignty and ability to exist as a sovereign state. It won that portion of the war because, of course, Russia did not overthrow the central government in Kyiv. But the second phase of this war as we're seeing is about those territorial lines and where they are drawn.

The U.S. is not overly optimistic about Ukraine's ability to take that land back, as I said, and one of the things that they're now debating and that will likely play out here at this summit is whether Zelenskyy needs to recalibrate his expectations at least publicly for what Ukraine can achieve. Jim?

SCIUTTO: Well, Ukraine certainly has a vote in that calculation as well. Natasha Bertrand also here in Madrid.

Joining me now, a member of the Ukrainian parliament, Lesia Vasylenko. Thanks so much for taking the time this morning.

LESIA VASYLENKO, MEMBER OF UKRAINIAN PARLIAMENT: Hello. It's a pleasure.

SCIUTTO: So, you hear that reporting there that the White House becoming less optimistic that Ukraine can win back the territory Russia has already taken. I wonder, do you share that view? And would Ukraine accept anything short of an outcome that gains back that territory?

VASYLENKO: Shrinking of Ukraine means shrinking of democracy and the very concept of sovereign states. Shrinking of Ukraine essentially means appeasing Putin. And going back to this 1938 practice of appeasing dictators, like Hitler was, it means now Putin will be (INAUDIBLE).

What will it do? It will inspire dictators across the world to act accordingly, to go ahead with aggression, to go ahead with state terrorism and to go ahead with land grabs, knowing well enough that the leaders of this free world will eventually give in and legitimize the illegal land grabs and occupation of sovereign territories, just like that, just because they don't have the courage or the strength to stand up for the values which are enshrined in the Constitutions of free countries across the globe.

SCIUTTO: Here in Madrid from NATO leaders, you and other Ukrainians will hear a lot of from members of the alliance about standing with Ukraine. And you'll see some things. There are some increased sanctions on Russia, promises of more weapons going to Ukraine. But what do you want to see done here that would give you confidence you're getting the help you need to defend your country?

VASYLENKO: You know, essentially, what I just heard this statement that maybe Ukraine needs to narrow down its expectations about getting back all of the land that has been occupied by Russia, essentially, for me, I reached to the line to think that the USA and NATO states will no longer be willing to furnish the weapons to the extent that Ukraine needs to win this war.

Essentially, I read between the lines the fatigue, and by reading in between the lines, the fact that there's no courage to stand up to Russia until Russia is actually pushed back, but also absolutely dismembered and absolutely demilitarized to make sure this never has not just the capacity but the idea to invade any other country in Europe or elsewhere in the world again.

So, for me, during the NATO summit, what I would expect is actually for the stand with Ukraine statements to mean something is a resolution and the decision that more weapons will be coming to Ukraine and they will be coming very fast in chief and that NATO forces essentially will be on a stand-by mode, ready to counter any kind of Russian terrors and aggression that may be escalating in the days to come.

SCIUTTO: Speaking of terrorism, you have western officials as well as the Ukrainian president accusing Russia of an act of terrorism yesterday. And we've been showing pictures there as you've been speaking, this missile strike on a crowded shopping center, close to 20 confirmed killed at this point, many more missing. And the weapon used, according to Ukrainian officials, really a blunt force weapon, an anti-ship missile fired at a mall here. Tell us your reaction to seeing yet one more attack like this on Ukrainian civilians.

We lost Lesia Vasylenko there, but thanks to her for taking the time this morning.

And you heard from her, Poppy, that Ukrainian members of parliament, like the Ukrainian president, they have a different view of what is the satisfying outcome from this war.

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If you hear from the White House, perhaps some reality checks about how much land Ukraine can expected to gain back, when I consistently ask Ukrainian officials, members of parliament, they say, that's not good enough. We're not giving up part of our nation, of our territory. So, we'll be watching closely as those talks continue, including here in Madrid.

HARLOW: You're exactly right. And it was so clear in her first answer to you on that front, that any shrinking of territory would be a shrinking of democracy.

It was great to have her, Jim. We'll get back to you in just a second. Still ahead though back here in the U.S., the landscape of abortion laws across the country is changing very quickly after Roe versus Wade was overturned by the Supreme Court, Friday. Where do things stand in several states and what states to watch, next.

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