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States Set Abortion Policies After Supreme Court Ruling; At Least Three Killed, 50 Hurt After Train Hits Dump Truck in Missouri; Alleged School Shooter Expected to be Called as Defense Witness in His Parents' Involuntary Manslaughter Trial. Aired 10:30-11a ET

Aired June 28, 2022 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back. The Supreme Court decision to overturn Roe versus Wade means each state will set its own abortion policy. Several states already had trigger bans on the books that went into effect immediately after the ruling came down. Others are expanding access.

Our Erica Hill is with me to break down how states are responding. Definitely, it changes by the day.

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR AND NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It changes by the hour. We saw a lot of movement, in fact, yesterday, Poppy. So, as we take a look at where we stand right now, in South Carolina, abortions are now banned at six weeks. That's after a federal judge lifted the hold on that state's so-called heartbeat law. The governor, Henry McMaster, celebrating that move as Planned Parenthood vowed that the fight is not over.

It's really important to point out here, you're going to hear that term a lot and have over the last six years, heartbeat law. An embryo at six weeks does not have a heartbeat. There is no heart. The four chambers of the heart are not detectable in an ultrasound until between 17 and 20 weeks. That's according to the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecologists.

So, where does this put us? You see that map on your screen. The states that you see in dark orange, those are states, including South Carolina, ten of them where abortion is either banned outright or is severely restricted. The other states on that map, in peach you see there, those are the states that could add to that list. Those are states where some trigger laws and bans are set to take effect. And so the number could grow there.

And there are those two states that are in white. You see Utah and Louisiana. Why are those states in limbo? Well, they're in limbo because of just what happened. We mentioned Monday was a busy day, judges ruling that laws there are essentially on hold. In Utah, specifically, a federal judge granted Planned Parenthood's request for a temporary restraining order. So, that will allow abortions to continue in the state for the next two weeks. We should point here, it isn't just laws that are trying to restrict

abortion access, as you said, Poppy, there are also efforts in a number of states to expand access and even codify it in some respect. 22 attorneys general joining forces in this coalition to reaffirm their commitment. I think we have those states on the map as well to show support to expand access to abortion, California among them.

And we should point out in California, it's not just the attorney general, Governor Newsom from the very beginning, and on Friday, very vocal about this. Yesterday, he signed an executive order Monday night that prevents state agencies, this is really important, we just talk more about this, from sharing information about reproductive health care services with other states and from participating in investigations. And also, we do know now that the state legislature voted overwhelmingly they're going to put an amendment on the ballot in November for voters in the state of California that would add women's reproductive rights to the state Constitution there.

HARLOW: So, states expanding, states restricting, changing sometimes by the hour?

HILL: Yes.

HARLOW: Thank you, Erica. Good to see you.

Many women who are now choosing to end their pregnancy are doing it with what's known as medication abortion. This is done with two pills instead of a surgical procedure. And post-decision to overturn Roe versus Wade, demand for medication abortion is surging.

With me now is Elisa Wells, co-Founder of Plan C. It's an organization that helps educate women about medication abortion and how to access it. Elisa, thanks for your time this morning.

And as I understand it, demand to your website has just been surging, right? The amount of people coming for education, for information, how much has it increased since Friday?

ELISA WELLS, CO-FOUNDER AND CO-DIRECTOR, PLAN C: Absolutely. Well, before Friday, we had had about 3,500 visitors in a day. And on Friday, we had 209,000 visitors that day. And it since has remained increased. People are looking for this information. They want to know how can I have an abortion if I need one in a state that restricts access. And we provide that information on our website plancpills.org.

HARLOW: I wonder if you have seen scams or fake websites set up trying to capitalize on women who are scared, who don't know how to access this from an approved provider, a black market, if you will?

WELLS: Yes. We have been testing websites that offer pills by mail for about five years now. We have purchased from them. We regularly purchase from them using mystery shoppers. And when we first started doing this in 2017, we actually did chemical assay of the pills to determine were they for real, and they were. And we haven't seen any products shipped to us in our subsequent testing that we suspect to be in any way fraudulent. [10:35:00]

The websites that people need to look out for actually are the crisis pregnancy center websites. They have been impersonating Plan C. They draw you in. They tell you that they can provide abortion services or they mimic abortion clinics and then they delay your access to care. So, we want people to be aware that these crisis pregnancy centers are out there online and they are impersonating us and abortion clinics.

HARLOW: Elisa, the medical guidance is that women who decide to take these two pills, FDA-approved I should note, and have medication abortion are urged to have a follow-up visit with the doctor. I believe it's 14 days after taking them. What would you say to women in states now that are restricting abortion, banning abortion, that may be concerned if they have planned or have already taken these pills or planning to, about actually going to the physician for a checkup afterwards?

WELLS: Right. Well, first of all, we know that most people who are using medication abortion are not actually going for a follow-up visit, even though it can be recommended. Most people can tell if they're no longer pregnant and if they're not having any bleeding issues, there's really no reason for it. So --

HARLOW: So you -- just to be clear here, this is the medical guidance from physicians, is to go in. Are you saying that that's not a good idea?

WELLS: What I'm saying is in common practice that most people are not doing a follow-up visit. If you ask clinic providers, they will say that a lot of people are not coming in. They don't need them. They can do it with a phone call.

But we do want people to know if they are using these pills on their own for a safe self-managed abortion and they do need follow-up care, we know that people are not telling the doctors what they have done because they are concerned about doctors or other providers reporting them for having done that.

We know that that is a way that people have been criminalized in the past for using these pills and we hope that people can avoid that. There's no information that the clinician needs to have. They do not need to know that you've taken abortion pills in order to provide safe follow-up treatment.

HARLOW: But isn't it important for patients to be honest with their physician, I mean, especially if they're going in to be checked on for this? And this gets into the bigger of picture of the gray area now and the ensuing fight between what the FDA has said and what the attorney general says is the FDA supersedes states here and states?

WELLS: Well, sure. In an ideal world, of course, we would want people to be fully transparent with their providers. But we are not in an ideal world right now. We are in a situation where laws are unjustly restricting access to care that people still need. Abortion is basic normal health care. It should be available through clinics, through telehealth and even through self-manage care in all 50 states.

So, in this crisis situation, we want people to have the information they need to access it safely on their own.

HARLOW: Elisa Wells, thank you very for your time this morning. And we'll be right back.

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HARLOW: Federal investigators are now on the scene of that fatal train crash in Missouri. An Amtrak train traveling from Los Angeles to Chicago struck a dump truck at a crossing in Mendon, Missouri, this happened late yesterday. It killed one person in the truck and killed two people on the train. 50 more were injured. Eight of the train's ten cars derailed and fell on to their side, forced many of the 287 people onboard to climb out of windows to escape.

Let's bring in Mary Schiavo. She is CNN's Transportation Analyst and a former inspector general for the Department of Transportation. Mary, it's good to have you here.

Look, Amtrak trains have black boxes, as planes do. What information will investigators be able to glean from that about this and what will they not be able to get from that?

MARY SCHIAVO, CNN TRANSPORTATION ANALYST: Well, the black boxes on the train is very much like black boxes on planes record parameters, the speed of the train, when the horns or bells or signals were sounded, when the engineer applied the brakes, giving a good indication of when he had sighted the obstruction on the track. And, basically, it's a recorder of what happened in the last traversing of the train over the tracks.

Now, in this case, of course, the NTSB is also going to be also looking very closely at this crossing. In particular, they're going to be looking at the grade of the crossing and the approach and the vegetation and the sight lines of the crossing, because, already, some witnesses have come forward and said they complained about the gradient of the crossing, that it was too steep and that they were brushing obstructions.

And, finally, most importantly, the NTSB is going to be look at the speed of the train. Was it within speed limits, was it traveling too fast, was it complying with all operations and regulations from operation on that track?

HARLOW: Listen to this exchange from the press conference, Mary, that was late yesterday in the hours following the crash. Do we have it -- we don't have it. So --

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LT. ERIC BROWN, MISSOURI STATE HIGHWAY PATROL: -- the cross intersection on a gravel road. So, no lights, no electronic control devices, things such as that?

REPORTER: Well, it's pretty common to this area then.

BROWN: A lot of the rural intersections are that way, yes, sir.

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HARLOW: Talk about how common these uncontrolled crossings are. And our Pete Muntean just reported last hour that Missouri's Department of Transportation identified problems with this particular crossing back in February. But it appears nothing changed.

SCHIAVO: Yes. This particular crossing was on a list to be remediated, to be fixed, to be changed, because of how steep the gradient is. It's a really steep climb. And, of course, persons who live in the area have reported that they can't see over the hump. And this is known as a hump crossing. And so it's difficult for low- clearance vehicles or vehicles that have to get a head of steam up to go over the hump to do it safely.

And in Missouri, as in many states, about half of the railroad crossings are just sign markings, no bells, whistles, gates on the lights or it was just a cross-hatch. So, that is unusual. What's difficult here is the gradient and the hump on the crossing and then some difficulty seeing over the road and also attributed to some brush and other obstructions.

HARLOW: An absolute tragedy and so many answers still needed. Mary, thanks very much, as always.

SCHIAVO: Thank you.

HARLOW: Still ahead, the parents of an accused school shooter going to unique lengths to argue they are not guilty of involuntary manslaughter. They have asked a judge to call their own son to testify on their behalf. We'll have the legal analysis of that, next.

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HARLOW: Well, Jeffrey Epstein's longtime girlfriend will be sentence today for her role in his sex crimes. Ghislaine Maxwell was convicted on five charges including sex trafficking of a minor that happened in December. Prosecutors have asked for a sentence between 30 and 55 years in prison. Her attorney has asked for less than six years. The judge will allow seven victim impact statements to be read in person at the sentencing hearing today.

Epstein died by suicide in 2019, one month after he was indicted on federal sex trafficking charges.

Meantime, the teenager accused of killing four students and injuring seven others at a Michigan high school last year is now expected to be called as a defense witness in his parents' trial. Ethan Crumbley's parents have each pleaded not guilty to four counts of involuntary manslaughter tied to their son's alleged crimes.

Joining me now to talk about this is Areva Martin, Civil Rights Attorney and Legal Analyst for CNN. Areva, it's good to have you.

And this is, needless to say, unique defense strategy. Just how rare is something like this?

AREVA MARTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It's pretty rare, Poppy, because we know in this case that the -- one of the defendants, Ethan Crumbley, himself has written pretty negative comments about his parents in his journal and also in text messages. And the judge in the same hearing when he did allow the parents -- he stated that the parents could call Ethan in their own case also stated that he was going to admit these journal entries as well as the text messages that show that Ethan was seeking help, that he had reached out to his parents, telling him how difficult a time he was having. But yet, according to him, his parents ignored him. So, even though it's legal for the parents to call their son in the defense of their own case, all things legal aren't expedient.

HARLOW: Well, that's true. And if I understand it right, they -- the parents, the defense team here, does have the ability to compel him to testify. But, of course, he cannot answer, he can plead the fifth, right?

MARTIN: Absolutely. The parents have the legal right to compel him to testify in their case. And, obviously, he has information about their case. Because the case against them, the involuntary manslaughter charges, are based primarily on the fact that prosecutors allege that they did not secure the gun that they bought for Ethan that was used in the shooting of the kids at the high school and that they failed to note of the warning signs and to get him medical attention and therapy.

Now, as you just indicated, Poppy, he himself has been charged, 24 counts of murder, an attempted murder and domestic terrorism. So, he has an interest in not saying anything that would incriminate himself. So, we should expect to make sure that he doesn't get in any situations where he might make an incriminating statement against --

HARLOW: Right. And I understand that the defense team has said to the judge, look, our questions will remain strictly on the parents' interactions with him pre-shooting and what they knew, and not get into the rest. But, obviously, there is a concern about self- incrimination there legally.

The parents have pleaded not guilty, Areva. My final question to you is how high is the bar for prosecutors to prove their case here because the question is how much did the parents know and how much action is a parent required to take when hearing and seeing such troubling things from their child?

MARTIN: Yes, the bar is pretty high. And, Poppy, we don't typically see parents charged in these school shooting cases. As you know, there have been hundreds of these shooting cases and we haven't seen involuntary manslaughter charges against the parents.

But this case is unique because there are some factors that suggest that the parents had an ability to secure this gun but they didn't, according to the prosecution, and that there were clear warning signs that this son, Ethan, their son, had mental health challenges that required medical attention and the parents purposely and intentionally failed to heed those warning signs and to get him help.

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So, even though the bar is high, I think the jury pool that is going to be selected in this case, you know, people are fed up with these school shootings and I think they want there to be accountability, and this just might be that case where these parents are held accountable for their actions of their son.

HARLOW: Areva Martin, thank you so much.

And thanks to all of you for joining us today. We will see you back here tomorrow tomorrow. I'm Poppy Harlow in New York. Jim?

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Jim Sciutto in Madrid, I'll be here for the next several days for the NATO summit. We are waiting to hear from President Biden at any moment now after his meeting with the Spanish prime minister.

At This Hour with Kate Bolduan continues our coverage after a short break.

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