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Ex-White House Aide Testifies about Trump; Secret Service Agents Dispute Testimony; Biden Holds rare Meeting with Leaders; John Kirby is Interviewed about the NATO Summit. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired June 29, 2022 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:00:30]

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: It is the top of the hour. Good morning, everyone. I'm Poppy Harlow.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Jim Sciutto, reporting from the NATO summit in Madrid, Spain.

Several significant developments today.

First, the alliance has now formally invited Sweden and Finland to join after Turkish opposition was overcome. The alliance's strategic concept, its mission statement, will, for the first time, mention China as a threat.

Also this morning, the president and his counterparts announce a significant strengthening of NATO forces along its eastern flank, including new troop movements, equipment, shipments, and military installations. Some of them permanent.

All of this as Russia's relentless war on Ukraine grinds on.

HARLOW: So many significant developments to get to there.

Back here in the United States, groundbreaking testimony from a former top aide in the Trump White House. Cassidy Hutchinson describing in great detail the former president's state of mind that on and around January 6th, and his actions, also testifying that Trump was personally aware of the potential for violence that day.

Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASSIDY HUTCHINSON, FORMER AIDE TO WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF MARK MEADOWS: I was in the vicinity of a conversation where I overheard the president say something to the effect of, you know, I don't f-ing care that they have weapons. They're not here to hurt me. Take the f-ing mags away. Let my people in. They can march to the Capitol from here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: She also testified that former White House counsel Pat Cipollone warned that Trump and others could be criminally liable if they had gone to the Capitol that day, as she testified, Jim, the president had so wanted to.

Another former White House chief of staff, Mick Mulvaney, referring to those developments and that testimony yesterday as, quote, explosive, saying about Hutchinson and her testimony, quote, I know her. I don't think that she is lying.

So, that is where we begin this morning with our CNN senior crime and justice reporter Katelyn Polantz.

And, Katelyn, major revelations in her testimony yesterday. Walk us through the key takeaways.

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Really, Poppy. This star witness, Cassidy Hutchinson, took us inside the White House, next to Donald Trump and his closest advisers on January 6th. And her assessment of the president's behavior that day, she called it un- American. Hutchinson was a close aide to the White House chief of staff, and that position allowed her to bring to light conversations that she recalled where Trump and others were clearly aware of his supporters in the crowd on January 6th, potentially breaking the law.

One example of that was that remark you mentioned of Donald Trump knowing his supporters were armed and wanting them to be let inside his rally perimeter because they weren't there to hurt him. That's what he said.

She also said that the top lawyer in the White House, White House Counsel Pat Cipollone, told her if Donald Trump went to the Capitol after his rallies with the crowd, they'd be charged with every crime imaginable. That was the words that she said Cipollone said.

She also testified about a scene where Trump tried to grab the wheel of the presidential SUV because he so badly wanted to go to the Capitol.

Here's a bit of her testimony where she remembered the White House counsel speaking to her boss, Mark Meadows.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASSIDY HUTCHINSON, FORMER AIDE TO WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF MARK MEADOWS: I remember Pat saying to him something to the effect of, the rioters have gotten to the Capitol, Mark. We need to go down and see the president now. And Mark looked up at him and said, he doesn't want to do anything, Pat. And Pat said something to the effect of, and very clearly said this to Mark, something to the effect of, Mark, something needs to be done or people are going to die and the blood's going to be on your f-ing hands.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

POLANTZ: At another point, Hutchinson testified that she wrote a draft statement for Trump on January 6th at Meadows' direction. The committee showed this on a note card. And this note card said, anyone who entered the Capitol illegally without proper authority should leave immediately.

Now, Trump never gave this statement. And since this testimony, there has been some pushback. A White House lawyer named Eric Herschmann released a statement last night through a spokesperson saying he had written that note and it was not Hutchinson's handwriting, as she had testified. But, of course, Herschmann's statement is just that, it was release to the media, whereas Hutchinson was testifying under oath and the core substance of what she says happened has not been contested.

Poppy.

HARLOW: Yes. That's a great point. And, Katelyn, I think this just makes it so evident that so many more folks need to come before that committee and the American people in public to testify and answer questions raised.

[09:05:10]

Thanks very much for the great reporting.

Clearly, from the testimony yesterday, the United States Secret Service is in the spotlight now. Cassidy Hutchinson testified that then President Trump was, quote, irate, when he was told by the Secret Service agents that he could not go to the Capitol on January 6th because it was not safe.

Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASSIDY HUTCHINSON, FORMER AIDE TO WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF MARK MEADOWS: The president said something to the effect of, I'm the f-ing president, take me up to the Capitol now, to which Bobby responded, sir, we have to go back to the West Wing.

The president reached up toward the front of the vehicle to grab at the steering wheel. Mr. Engel grabbed his arm and said, sir, you need to take your hand off the steering wheel. We're going back to the West Wing. We're not going to the Capitol.

Mr. Trump then used his free hand to lunge toward Bobby Engel and Mr. -- when Mr. Ornato had recounted this story to me, he had motioned towards his clavicles.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: So, officials say the Secret Service agents involved that she's talking about, both Engel and Ornato, are ready to testify under oath and they do dispute her account.

Our CNN security correspondent Josh Campbell has more.

Josh, I mean, isn't it just so clear, the American people need to hear from them under oath if they're disputing this?

JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: That's right. I mean, Poppy, there were several stunning revelations from this hearing yesterday, including this alleged incident inside the up-armored presidential SVU as he was leaving that rally. And as she just testified there, Cassidy Hutchinson, she told - she said that she was later told by a man named Tony Ornato, who was then the White House deputy chief of staff, he's now a senior executive with the U.S. Secret Service, she says that Ornato told her that this incident occurred.

Now, afterwards, an official with the Secret Service told me that Tony Ornato denies briefing her on this, telling her that this transpired. It's also worth pointing out that according to this official the lead Secret Service agent who was inside the vehicle denies that this incident ever occurred.

Now, we're told that the Department of Homeland Security reached out to the January 6th select committee and said that these witnesses are willing to come testify to refute some of this testimony.

We did get a statement, our colleague, Ryan Nobles, from the committee. I'll read you part of it. They say that, the committee trusts the credibility of a witness who is willing to testify under oath and in public, but is also willing to hear any and all information that others may have that would aid in the investigation.

So, clearly, they're -- the Secret Service pushing back on this, saying, that according to Ornato and these other officials, this didn't happen. It's also worth pointing out, though, that Cassidy Hutchinson is the only person who has testified in her own name, under oath, under penalty of perjury.

HARLOW: Yes.

CAMPBELL: And so her lawyer is saying that this Secret Service needs to come forward and testify under oath if they are refuting this.

Finally, Poppy, it's also worth pointing out that obviously we need to get to the bottom of this incident. Obviously, an irate president allegedly assaulting his own security detail. But we can't lose sight of the fact that I think the biggest issue here is that no witness has disputed that Trump still wanted to go to the U.S. Capitol, knowing that there were armed people inside that crowd, leading them, leading this crowd, this angry crowd toward the U.S. Capitol, where those votes were being counted.

So, again, although it's important to get to the bottom of what happened inside the suburban, no one is disputing that even after knowing that this crowd was dangerous, Trump still wanted to lead them to the Capitol.

HARLOW: I think that that certainly is the key here, right? And the president, her testimony saying that President Trump said, get rid of the magnetometers, I'm not worried about armed people in the rally. They're not going to hurt me. But what about everyone else inside the Capitol.

Josh, thank you very much. Joining me now is Elliot Williams, a CNN legal analyst and former

federal prosecutor, and Mike Matranga, a former Secret Service agent who worked the presidential detail. He is now the CEO of the M6 Global Defense Group.

Thanks very much.

And, Mike, just a few, quick questions for you on this before we get to you, Elliot, on these big legal questions that Josh raised.

Given all that we've just heard, and given Cassidy Hutchinson's testimony, specifically about what happened in The Beast with the presidential detail, you know both Tony Ornato and you know Robert Engel personally. What is your reaction to what you've heard and their disputes of this account?

MIKE MATRANGA, FORMER SECRET SERVICE AGENT: Right. Yes.

Thanks for having me.

I would say that moving forward I think what would be appropriate is that we all just take a tactical pause and wait to hear the accounts of Bobby - I mean, I'm sorry, of Tony Ornato and Bobby Engel. If there's anybody who understands the importance of testifying under oath, it's both of those individuals. And so, you know, from my perspective, you know, just looking at - you know, there's no doubt that I think that the president probably, at the time, was angry, you know, given the circumstances.

[09:10:06]

But if there's disputes from both Tony Ornato and Bobby Engel, that this did not happen, I would like to hear that. And I will tell you that I know both of these individuals, I know Tony Ornato better than Bobby Engel. If they dispute it, I have no reason to question either one of those gentlemen as they are both of upstanding moral character.

HARLOW: Just - then just to be clear here, until they go under oath, and testify, I think importantly in front of the American people, not just on -- in a deposition or behind closed doors, she is the one, Miss Hutchinson is the one who, Elliot Williams, is under oath and said all of this under oath.

But, Elliot, to the broader point here, which is the testimony that the president knew there were armed masses, things like flagpoles with spears on the end, the call you heard in the testimony of someone in the trees with multiple AR-15s, knew this, then said, let's get rid of the magnetometers, let them in, they're not going to hurt me. In the same speech where former President Trump said, march to the Capitol and, quote, fight like hell. If that's true, he said that, if the testimony is true he said that knowing about all of these armed folks, legally would that change things for the former president?

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Look, it changes things insofar as it makes him more likely to be charged with a crime. But I think what the president's defense is, is that the president was obsessed with crowd size going back to his swearing in. If you remember the inauguration in 2017, we had a week of debate over the president fighting and lying about the size of the crowd there. That's what his defense would be.

Now, I think it's more likely to end in a criminal charge here on account of the fact that, number one, there were warnings from the White House Counsel and other people that there would have been violence, number two, there were warnings about people being armed.

But, again, Poppy, we've talked about this sort of as a nation over the last couple weeks, what it takes to win a criminal trial and what it takes to convince the American public that, number one, someone did something really bad and shouldn't be president again are just two different standards.

HARLOW: Yes.

WILLIAMS: And that's the burden that the Justice Department or any prosecutor is going to have to hit here.

HARLOW: It's very true. Speaking of convincing a jury and speaking of lawyers, let's talk about White House Counsel Pat Cipollone.

WILLIAMS: Yes.

HARLOW: I mean, earlier this week, we were saying it's pretty important that he testify, is it not?

WILLIAMS: Yes.

HARLOW: Listen to this. And on the other side I want you to answer how much more important that testimony to the American people just became.

Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASSIDY HUTCHINSON, FORMER AIDE TO WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF MARK MEADOWS: I saw Mr. Cipollone right before I walked out on to west exec that morning and Mr. Cipollone said something to the effect of, please make sure we don't go up to the Capitol, Cassidy. Keep in touch with me. We're going to get charged with every crime imaginable if we make that movement happen.

REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): And do you remember which crimes Mr. Cipollone was concerned with?

HUTCHINSON: In the days leading up to the 6th, we had conversations about potentially obstructing justice or defaulting the electoral count.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Elliot.

WILLIAMS: That is just devastating to hear. And we have to hear from Pat Cipollone.

Here's the thing. One of -- the main argument he's making for -- and rightfully so for not testifying -- is that, well, I was the White House Counsel and I'm going to have some levels of attorney client or executive privilege. The problem here for him is that the things he's talking about there aren't in the scope of his job as White House Counsel. He's saying to a colleague, look, we might be charged with crimes.

And so he could very narrowly tailor the things that he comes in to testify about. And it's, number one, did you warn your colleagues that they could be charged with crimes? I don't see any real attorney client privilege based on his job as White House Counsel there. So, he's got to come in. This is important for the American people.

HARLOW: And he also has Fifth Amendment protection if there are those questions that he feels like are too broad and within the scope of privilege that he doesn't have to answer.

But, just quickly, Mike, before we go, I just wonder your reaction, as someone who has served with these folks, who has served to protect the president, to what happened yesterday, what we heard.

MATRANGA: You know, from my perspective, you know, the question is always, is there two sides to every story? And the answer is always yes. And I'm not questioning, you know, the --

HARLOW: Yes, but there's one truth. There's one truth.

MATRANGA: Right, there's one truth. And I don't -- I'm not questioning the testimony of Miss Hutchinson. What she may have heard and what she may have, you know, heard that was implied may be very accurate according to her statements. But, you know, like I said, I would caution the American people that before we rush to judgment, let's hear from Tony Ornato and let's hear from Bob Engel and let's hear what they have to say to see if they can corroborate her story.

[09:15:01]

And so - but, like I said, there's no doubt in my mind that the president was probably very angry. You know, do I think that the president lunged toward the steering wheel and put his hands on Bobby Engel? I would say that that's highly unlikely. But I'm not going to discount that account either until we hear from either one of those gentlemen.

WILLIAMS: Yes, but if I can - if I can say one thing.

HARLOW: Yes, Elliot. Sure.

WILLIAMS: If I can say one quick thing. That is a factual dispute that speaks to her credibility as a witness. It's something that the committee has to clean up. This happens in criminal trials where you witness just says something that's contradicted. But don't lose the forest through the trees here. And what you saw were two hours of testimony with a lot of corroborated facts over the course of five prior hearings before that, with a lot of corroborated facts.

MATRANGA: Right.

WILLIAMS: It's, you know, again, I think we're - it's important - it's important to clear this up, right, because, you know, it's factual testimony.

MATRANGA: Well, (INAUDIBLE) -

WILLIAMS: But, at the end of the day, this whole - it can't hinge on this.

HARLOW: All right.

WILLIAMS: Yes. Sorry.

MATRANGA: (INAUDIBLE) president is acting in that manner, it needs to be disclosed.

WILLIAMS: Absolutely.

MATRANGA: And so I'm not disputing that at all.

WILLIAMS: Yes.

MATRANGA: I think that it -- it took a tremendous amount of courage on her behalf to come before the panel yesterday and say what she said. She's to be commended about that. I would just like to hear from the other side before we make a judgment.

HARLOW: All right, gentlemen, I got to jump. We, obviously, have Jim covering major developments at the NATO summit overseas.

But, Elliot, thanks. Mike, thanks very much.

WILLIAMS: Take care, Poppy.

MATRANGA: Thank you. Appreciate it.

HARLOW: Jim, let's get back to you - of course -- Jim, in Madrid.

SCIUTTO: Well, Poppy, among the other developments here, the Ukrainian president made a new plea to NATO allies gathered here for his country to join NATO as Finland and Sweden have now gotten the green light to move forward with their bids. President Biden and the NATO allies also sending a strong signal to Vladimir Putin as they move more troops and equipment and aircraft to countries that border Russia. Their concern those countries could be next. I'm going to speak live with National Security Council communications coordinator, also former spokesperson for the Pentagon, John Kirby. That's coming up in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:21:09]

SCIUTTO: Welcome back. I'm Jim Sciutto, in Madrid, for the NATO summit.

Some calling this the most consequential meeting of the NATO alliance this century as the western world tries to counter growing Russian aggression. Just within the last half hour, the alliance has formally invited Sweden and Finland to become members. Membership they had resisted for decades. The bid moving forward after Turkey agreed to drop its opposition to their membership.

But the talk at the summit, not all about Europe. President Biden also meeting with the leaders of South Korea and Japan, in the last hour, to talk about not only the threat from North Korea, but we're also seeing the alliance adjusting its mission statement in effect to include China for the first time.

CNN chief White House correspondent Kaitlan Collins joins me now.

Tell us about this meeting, because, of course, the focus here is Russia, Ukraine, new force deployments, but significant, is it not, to have America's most closest eastern allies here as well?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely. And you don't often see a sit-down like the one you just saw with Japan and South Korean leaders in the same room with President Biden. They, obviously, have a pretty frosty relationship. It's one that's really deteriorated recently over their wartime histories. But, of course, they have mutual concerns. And so you saw these three leaders gathered just a few moments ago here at the NATO summit in Madrid, Jim, where they were talking, of course, primarily about North Korea, which has been a major concern for the Biden administration, as well as these missile tests have continued and have continued to build up arms. And so that is something that they're discussing given really there's been relatively no contact between the Biden administration and North Korea recently.

But also what's underlying here is Russia and China, because this summit is not just about pushing back on Russian aggression, and showing this show of force, really, in light of its Russian invasion of Ukraine, but also they're sending a message to China here with all of this because that has kind of been the warning signal from the White House of concerns of what Russia has done to Ukraine with invading it. That is something they could see potentially from China one day.

So that has really been part of the message they are working to send, part of the message they are working to send with Japan and South Korea and President Biden all in the same room today.

SCIUTTO: No question. An alliance initially conceived as a counterweight to the old Soviet Union, now expanding its sights really globally to some degree.

Kaitlan Collins, thanks so much.

Well, this morning, President Biden also announced, as we mentioned, that the U.S. will boost its military presence in Europe, particularly in the east, increase shipments of equipment, aircraft. Joining me now to discuss multiple developments here at the summit,

John Kirby. He's coordinator for strategic communications at the National Security Council.

Good to have you here. We appreciate you taking time this morning.

JOHN KIRBY, COORDINATOR FOR STRATEGIC COMMUNICATIONS, NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL: My pleasure.

SCIUTTO: There's a lot going on here, on your plate.

KIRBY: There is. It's a busy summit.

SCIUTTO: I want to begin with one thing that I've noticed since being here, that you, European leaders, White House officials, describe the threat from Russia, not just to Ukraine, but to other NATO members, no longer in theoretical terms, right? Not this idea that it may happen some day, but that this is a clear and present danger. Is that your view that NATO is in effect preparing itself, defending against the possibility that Russia might attack one of its own?

KIRBY: Well, they have to, Jim, given what Mr. Putin has done in Ukraine.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

KIRBY: And I would point you back to, you know, the Defense Department just recently completed a national defense strategy and they called Russia in that strategy an acute threat. And acute is a great word for it because it's the here and now.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

KIRBY: And it's very specific. And the alliance is feeling that threat, which is why you saw the president talk about increased force posture in Europe. And you're going to see other announcements from other allies to shore up that eastern flank. And, of course, now that eastern flank has gotten a lot bigger.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

KIRBY: Or will soon get bigger once Finland and Sweden join.

SCIUTTO: You know, as well as me, that when you hear from eastern leaders, particularly the Baltics, that they describe the threat from Russia in quite severe terms. As you know, the Estonian prime minister has said that current NATO defense plans for Estonia would see Estonia, in effect, wiped off the map if those plans are changed.

[09:25:07]

Now, I spoke to her this morning, and she said she is cautiously optimistic about the changes she's seen so far. But can you explain to me how these new force deployments will better defend those eastern allies, particularly the Baltics, against potential Russian attack? KIRBY: You look at the kinds of capabilities, just the United States

and what the president talked about today, what we're contributing. It's really across the spectrum of warfare and operations. Air, more aircraft now, F-35 squadrons to the U.K., right?

SCIUTTO: Yes.

KIRBY: Sea, more destroyers, by two, based in Roda (ph), Spain.

And ground. I mean the president talked about, you know, a brigade combat team that will be, you know, heel to toe rotationally out of Romania. So it's really across the whole spectrum.

SCIUTTO: Yes. Do you think Putin is watching these developments with concern?

KIRBY: Well, I think what Mr. Putin ought to remember is that the alliance is watching what he's doing, with great concern, inside Ukraine. He has been the destabilizing factor here.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

Let's talk about what's going on in Ukraine right now. We had the president, the Ukrainian president, reach out to allies here and say, listen, in effect, we've suffered enough, right? It's our turn now to join NATO.

Is that something that you, that the U.S., is considering more seriously now, is getting Ukraine on a path to NATO membership?

KIRBY: I think that's really between the alliance, NATO leadership, and Ukraine. And, look, we continue to support NATO's open door policy, and other nations as they qualify to join NATO. And we're talking about two potential new ones now here.

But, really, that's a discussion between Ukraine and the alliance.

SCIUTTO: Understood.

Bigger picture here. As we mentioned, it's the first time that the NATO strategic concept, as it's known, in effect its mission statement, mentions China as a challenge. Tell us why and how exactly. Is it saying that the alliance must now defend itself, not just against Russia, but against China as well?

KIRBY: It's a reflection. The fact that the strategic concept will, for the first time, mention China. And the last one was in 2010. So it's 12 years ago. It's time to update this. NATO has transformed. The security landscape has transformed. Not just here in Europe, but around the world. And China has been a factor, around the world, but also here in Europe.

And so, it's a reflection of the fact that the allies also see some of the threats and challenges from China, whether it's economic trade practices and forced labor, intellectual theft, but also some of the coercive behavior that they're exhibiting, not just in the Indo- Pacific, but in Africa, the Middle East and here in Europe.

SCIUTTO: If I can, before we go, the -- CNN's reporting is that the White House is less optimistic today that Ukraine can gain back the territory that it's already lost to Russia. You know Ukraine's view of this, they don't want to give up any territory. But I wonder, will this administration ask Ukraine to cede some territory in order to end this war?

KIRBY: Well, two thoughts there. First of all, I would push back on the notion that we're pessimistic about their ability to conduct a successful counteroffensives. They are doing that almost every day, in multiple places.

Now, yes, they have challenges and, yes, Russia has made some incremental progress, but it is just that, Jim, it's incremental, it's spotty, and the Ukrainians have been able to push back. And we fully expect that they'll be able to do that going forward.

SCIUTTO: You won't ask them to give up territory to make peace?

KIRBY: This is a -- victory has got to be decided by President Zelenskyy. And he gets to decide what that looks like for his country.

Our job is to make sure that he can continue to defend himself.

SCIUTTO: Understood.

John Kirby, we appreciate you taking the hard questions.

KIRBY: My pleasure. Thanks.

SCIUTTO: Thanks so much for taking the time.

KIRBY: Thanks.

SCIUTTO: Poppy.

HARLOW: Great conversation. Our thanks to you guys for that.

Up next, some Republican lawmakers tell CNN they are privately stunned by the damning revelations at the latest January 6th hearing. That testimony yesterday. We will have reaction from a former adviser to Mike Pence.

We're also moments away from the opening bell on Wall Street. Stock futures higher this morning after yesterday's losses. Investors appear skeptical that the Federal Reserve can avoid a bruising economic downturn, though, amid sharp interest rate hikes. Lower consumer confidence also fueling concerns the country may slip into recession.

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