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Ex-White House Aide Testifies About Trump's Erratic Behavior on January 6; Rep. Liz Cheney (R-WY) Says, Witnesses Describe Intimidation by Trump Allies; Biden, NATO Leaders to Strengthen Alliance Forces Along Eastern Flank. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired June 29, 2022 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:00:00]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: A good Wednesday morning to you. I'm Jim Sciutto reporting from the NATO summit in Madrid, Spain.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Poppy Harlow in New York.

Right now, we are closely monitoring the Supreme Court where the justices are set to release new opinions this morning. We'll bring you those as soon as we get them.

We are also following new developments from the stunning testimony yesterday in the January 6th hearing. Cassidy Hutchinson, a former top aide in the Trump White House painting a picture of a furious Donald Trump on the day of the insurrection. She testified the president wanted to join those who marched armed to the Capitol, this despite warnings from White House Counsel Pat Cipollone.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASSIDY HUTCHINSON, FORMER AIDE TO WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF MARK MEADOWS: Mr. Cipollone said something to the effect of, please make sure we don't go up to the Capitol, Cassidy. Keep in touch with me. We're going to get charged with every crime imaginable if we make that movement happen.

REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): And do you remember which crimes Mr. Cipollone was concerned with?

HUTCHINSON: In the days leading up to the 6th, we had conversations about potentially obstructing justice or defrauding the electoral count.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: We will have much more on her testimony in just a moment.

SCIUTTO: Back here in Madrid, multiple developments this morning on the first day of the NATO summit. President Biden, he's participating in several meetings with NATO allies, including a highly anticipated sit-down with the Turkish president next hour. So far, the alliance has announced a significant strengthening of forces along its eastern flank. It has formally now invited Finland and Sweden to become members, this after overcoming Turkey's opposition.

They are also, for the first time, naming China in their strategic concept, as it's known, their mission statement, focused, though, of course, confronting Russia as the brutal invasion of Ukraine drags on. Poppy?

HARLOW: We will take you back to Jim in Madrid in just a moment.

Let's begin this hour though with more on yesterday's damning January 6th testimony. Our Capitol Hill Reporter Melanie Zanona is here with me.

Melanie, you have a lot of reporting, a lot of significant developments. Walk us through more about what we're learning after the testimony from yesterday.

MELANIE ZANONA, CNN CAPITOL HILL REPORTER: Yes. Well, we are continuing to track both the potential political and legal fallout for Donald Trump and his allies after this explosive testimony from a top Mark Meadows aide. But there have been some elements of her testimony that have been disputed.

And we should point out that her testimony was given under oath here but one of the elements that has been contested is that she told the story that she was told by Tony Ornato, he was a security official, about how Trump was so angry at his Secret Service when they wouldn't drive him to the Capitol after his rally speech on January 6th, that he grabbed for the steering wheel of the presidential vehicle and he tried to lunge at his security agents.

Now, the Secret Service says these agents are willing to testify under oath to talk about these allegations, and sources tell CNN that the agents deny that they were ever physically attacked or that they even told Hutchinson the story. And the committee says they are willing to hear from anyone who is willing to come publicly testify under oath even though they did find Cassidy Hutchinson to be credible here.

But I think it's really important to point out that nobody is disPuting the core facts here, which is that Trump wanted to go to the Capitol very much on January 6th. And I just think while these other details are sensational and certainly eyebrow-raising, it's important not to lose sight of the fact that Trump knew the crowd was armed and dangerous and not only egged them on to the Capitol but wanted to join them.

HARLOW: Yes. I'm so glad you bring the focus back there, because all of these moments that you've laid out matter but that's really the crux of it, knowing about the danger to the people inside the Capitol and wanting to join them.

Before you go, where do things go from here, right? I mean, all we heard from Chairman Thompson at the end was, we will be reconvening in the coming weeks. We don't know when. We don't know who they're going to call, or do we?

ZANONA: Yes. Well, we do know that there's going to be two more hearings. But the committee is continuing to push for another witness and that is Pat Cipollone, the White House counsel. He continues to be sort of a white whale for the committee and it's really easy to see why. That is because Hutchinson testified that he had major concerns about the potential legal implications if Trump did go to the Capitol on January 6th. He apparently something along the lines of, they would be charge with, quote, every crime imaginable if they did.

Take a listen to what else Cassidy Hutchinson had to say about Pat Cipollone.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HUTCHINSON: And I remember Pat saying to him something to the effect of, the rioters have gone to the Capitol, Mark. We need to go down and see the president now. And Mark looked up and then said he doesn't want to do anything, Pat. And Pat said something to the effect of, and very clearly said this to Mark, something to the effect of, Mark, something needs to be done.

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Well, people are going to die and the blood is going to be on your f- ing hands.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZANONA: Now, the committee is hoping that these hearings inspire Pat Cipollone to come forward. Congresswoman Liz Cheney, a Republican, continues to try to make direct appeals to him. She tweeted just this morning asking him to come publicly testify. And that this is in the greater good for him to come forward. But, so far, he has been resistant. And so we'll just have to wait and see whether that changes in the coming weeks, Poppy.

HARLOW: Melanie, great reporting, as always. Thank you very much.

Let's discuss all of this now with David Gergen, CNN Senior Political Analyst, former presidential adviser to four presidents, Republicans and Democrats, Nixon, Ford, Reagan and Clinton. David, it's good to have you.

DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Thank you, Poppy. Good to be here.

HARLOW: You've got such an important perspective because of all those men that I just mentioned that you advised through all of those years. What did yesterday change?

GERGEN: I think yesterday really set a very clear message about the core issue, as just as you were mentioning, and that is that President Trump knew in advance that there might be heavily armed people, there would be heavily armed people among those going to the Capitol and yet he wanted to go and join them, not to calm them down, not to take away their weapons. He wanted to get rid of the magnetometers that would tell you who has a weapon and who doesn't. He just wanted to open the open field. And I think given all that, I think it certainly adds some weight to the idea that he was trying to obstruct justice. So, I think it strengthens the likelihood that Garland will prosecute out of the Justice Department.

If I might say one other thing, Poppy, about the significance of yesterday, I think it's so striking that a 25-year-old woman, just in the early stages of adulthood, would have the courage and bravery to stand up and speak the truth. And time and time again, what we've seen now in recent years is that young people are the ones standing up to cowards. Are young people are the ones who are standing up to tyrants. And whether you're talking about Greta Thunberg in Sweden or Malala in Pakistan or the Parkland kids here or Black Lives Matter, again and again, we're seeing that the young are standing up to the old and the people now who are ducking and saying, well, that's what Cassidy Hutchinson did or what she said was wrong. Let them come forward and take an oath of office and then testify, and they'll have some more credibility.

But right now, hiding in the corners, not allowing people to go up there, obstructing the conversation, you know, it's the young that are carrying this and the oldsters are really making a mess of it.

HARLOW: Such an important point, coming from a youngster at heart, you, David Gergen. I count you in that group.

But it's such a great point because it is about the future of the democracy and so many more decades of it is theirs to live and what kind of country do they want to live in.

GERGEN: Exactly.

HARLOW: Speaking of courage, we heard at the end of the hearing yesterday from Chairman Thompson and a bit from Congresswoman Vice Chair Cheney as well, if some of you have found your courage who have dodged this committee and are unwilling to speak publicly, if you found it, you're welcome here, right? Who do we need to hear from most now?

GERGEN: Well, I think we certainly need to hear from Mark Meadows and we also need to hear from Counsel Cipollone. Ultimately, we need to hear from Donald Trump himself if we really want to get a hold of what the story is.

But I think we could look around. There are others in that circle. There are numerous people who are ducking here, not telling the full truth, not telling what the story really is. And the pieces of the story that we've heard are so gut-wrenching, I mean, one of the things that Donald Trump has shown us, I think, very clearly is that he lacks what psychiatrists call impulse control and that he's not in control of his impulses. Whether or not he lunged at the Secret Service guy the last back on January 6th, we don't know that for sure.

But I will tell you, I'll take Cassidy Hutchinson's testimony over that of the people who are hiding any day. She's so much more believable and she's so much braver. And good luck to her she's because I'm sure she's going to have a lot of pushback. I hope and I trust that everybody is looking after her future.

HARLOW: Well, David Gergen, thank you so much for such important perspective, really big picture on what happened yesterday.

GERGEN: Thank you, Poppy.

HARLOW: Of course, always good to have you, friend.

Joining me now is Michael Moore, a former U.S. attorney for the Middle District of Georgia, currently a partner Moore Hall in Atlanta. Michael, it's great to have you here.

You know, there's this, right?

[10:10:00]

So, there's like three big things going on here. There's the January 6th committee and this investigation, then there is the Department of Justice investigation and, oh, by the way, then there is a criminal investigation led by the Fulton County D.A. in your state. I wonder if anything that you heard in this testimony yesterday and subsequently since plays into what Fani Willis is leading in that criminal investigation in your state.

MICHAEL MOORE, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY, MIDDLE DISTRICT OF GEORGIA: Well, I'm glad to be with you. Thanks for the invitation to join.

I don't think there's any question that the information sharing will be useful. She's running the special grand jury here. They're trying to subpoena witnesses. And you may have seen that some of the legislators, Republican legislators in Georgia, didn't try to block the appearance before the grand jury, and sort of plays off what David a minute ago, and that was that can count on young people, sometimes lower level staff to come forward and talk about what happened there. So, I think she'll get some information from the committee, clearly.

How much back and forth sharing they're doing, I don't know, but I think she'll have access to a great deal if she's making some (INAUDIBLE).

What really stands out for me and I think what I hope we'll hear through one of the three investigations that you mentioned is, you know, where was Trump, some of the sort of sexiness of the throws some ketchup against the wall, he jumped at the chauffeur of his limousine, that's great drama and that's great to tell a jury, not have a lot to do necessarily with criminal implications or what he would be charged, but we want to know strings he was pulling, what communications were going on, what did he really know. Was the idea to remove magnetometers, was that something that was discussed internally to send people down to the Capitol, or is that something that simply was a nod to his narcissistic personality that he needed to say that he had more people there? Those magnetometers blocking the crowd as they were.

HARLOW: I think you make such a good point because that can sort of dominate some of the discussion or the headlines, throwing the plate against the wall, ketchup on the wall, even the incident that she testified happened in the Beast.

But another core thing that maybe is not getting enough attention that should is the allegations at the end of the hearing when Liz Cheney read those messages that she said came in from others in Trump world about their testimony or speaking to the committee, which amounted to the way she read them, very potential witness tampering. But to prove that legally, don't we need to know who sent those messages to the committee and who, from Trump world, indicated to them, you know, you've got to stay on our team in your testimony?

MOORE: Well, I think you're exactly right. I think that's probably the most damning information that I heard from the hearing yesterday, and that is that somebody at a high level within the Trump circle, and maybe Trump himself, is sending messages.

This is not unlike a sort of a Godfather-esque moment where they send the horse heads to the bed of the person and say, stay on the right team here. And that's really what we're seeing here with some of the messages that are sent back and forth.

So, did he send it? Did he have one of his emissaries do it, one of his consigliore? Did that do it? Did they send a message through somebody associated with the campaign? Was it Giuliani? We don't know yet. My guess is that we would not have heard sort of the beginning of that story from Representative Cheney unless they already had some information about where those threats were coming from.

The hearings have really been sort of a profile in cowardice, if you ask me about it. I think that you have some very courageous people who come forward and then you've had some people who are very high up in the administration who hid, and they've used every legal block that they can to keep from telling the truth about what happened in order to protect their own skin for future office down the road or at least remain in the graces of that wing of the GOP.

And I'm struck by how many people have not come forward. We saw people say that the January 6 event was simply a tourist event, there was nothing to it, these are great Americans, now we found out at the time that they were cowering in the White House talking about who's going to get hurt, do we all need to get a pardon and how are we going to do it? So, it's two different tables. We've got folks taking the Fifth. You've got Mike take the Fifth, Flynn, out there. Really, how hard is it to say you can't do this and take the Fifth on these questions was nonsensical.

So, we've seen folks cower and hide who should have had the fortitude, large enough statesmen to come forward and talk about it and they could have stopped this had they had the courage to step up and do what needed to be done either through the 25th Amendment or through the impeachment process. There are other things they could have done but they continue to feed the beast and the beast now tacked us off.

HARLOW: Well, Michael Moore, thank you very much. So many more people, clearly the American public needs to hear from.

[10:15:02] We appreciate your time this morning. Jim?

MOORE: Always good to be with you.

SCIUTTO: Still to come this hour, Putin's plan backfires. NATO puts two more countries on track to become members of the alliance expanding its reach, also bolstering forces in the east to offset Russia's threat.

I speak with the Estonian prime minister, one of those countries bordering Russia, who has warned that NATO must do more to defend the Baltic States. That's coming up.

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SCIUTTO: Soon, President Biden expected to sit down with the Turkish president as both leaders play an integral part in expanding NATO.

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Turkey had opposed Finland and Sweden joining. But just this morning, NATO formally invited them to join the alliance after the two countries reached an agreement with Turkey yesterday that was centering on its concerns about Kurdish parties operating from Sweden. But it was President Biden who helped seal that deal not guaranteed during the summit. The expansion a direct result now of Russia's ongoing war in Ukraine.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, U.S. PRESIDENT: I said Putin is looking for the Finlandization (ph) of Europe, but then he got the NATOization (ph) of Europe. And that's exactly what he didn't want but exactly what needs to be done to guarantee security for Europe.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: CNN White House Reporter Natasha Bertrand is also here in Madrid with me. So, NATO is expanding but also crucially NATO forces along that eastern front are expanding as well, the president making news about new U.S. forces going to Europe. Tell us the steps that he's taking.

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: That's right, Jim. So, essentially, what President Biden laid out here is that the U.S. is going to be sending additional forces to Europe in order to shore up this eastern flank. And the steps that he's taking include sending additional destroyers to Spanish naval ports, establishing a permanent headquarters of the Fifth Army Corps in Poland, maintaining a presence of about 3,000 troops in Romania as well as increasing number of air defense systems that will be sent to countries like Germany and Italy.

So, clearly, this is not as big of a step as the United States has taken previously where it has surged about 20,000 forces to Europe when the start of the war broke out in February, but this is a symbolic move and it's meant to reinforce the idea that the United States is still committed, of course, to seeing this through and seeing NATO through and seeing that the alliance remains intact and is defended because, of course, the Russian incursion into Ukraine poses a direct threat, NATO feels to its territorial integrity. They are concerned that something could happen and that something could spiral out of control, and that is why they are shoring up all their defenses at this moment.

But, of course, the other big headline from today is going to be President Biden's meeting with the Turkish president, Erdogan. Of course, President Biden really helped get this whole thing over the finish line with the accession of Sweden and Finland into the NATO alliance, really operating behind the scenes here, calling the Turkish president, giving the signoff to Sweden and Finland when it came to the things that they agreed to with Turkey in order to get them to unblock their accession process.

So, what remains to be seen what exactly the Turkish president and President Biden are going to be discussing. However, it is important to note that the Turks have been very eager to see the United States sell them advanced F0-16 fighter jets and they are really hoping to get that process moving forward. So, that is likely to be a topic of conversation today, Jim.

SCIUTTO: And those eastern allies, such as Estonia, some of those most concerned about Russia's threats. Natasha Bertrand, thanks so much.

We're joined now by the Estonian prime minister, Kaja Kallas. Prime Minister, thank you for taking the time this morning.

KAJA KALLAS, ESTONIAN PRIME MINISTER: Thank you for having me.

SCIUTTO: NATO is announcing at the start of the summit new forced deployments to the eastern flank, including to Estonia. You've been critical of the NATO force posture to date saying that NATO's strategy for defending Estonia would see it wiped off the map. Do these forced changes change that, in your view? Are they sufficient?

KALLAS: First of all, NATO's posture so far in the eastern flank and in the Baltic States has been a deterrence posture. And now, we have to move forward to defense posture. And I'm really, really glad that our concerns have been heard. And I'm relatively optimistic that we will get very strong decisions out today.

We heard from different allies also saying how they will employ more troops and reposition equipment, which is very important. But it's also important that the plans NATO has will be implemented, so not in words but also the deeds.

SCIUTTO: You have told me before when we have spoken that Estonia's membership in NATO makes it different from Ukraine in terms of the risk of Russia. Of course, there is the mutual defense aspect of the NATO alliance. But when I speak to White House officials, including this morning, they do describe a new level of the Russian threat to the eastern flank.

Is it your view, is it NATO's view that despite Estonia's membership in the NATO alliance that Russia might very well attack Estonia?

KALLAS: This is exactly the reason why we need to bolster the eastern flank and why we need more pre-stationed equipment, why we need more troops.

[10:25:05]

Because, so far, nobody thought that Russia would test NATO's unity but we have seen that they have acted in conflict with all the war laws, with all the different ideas that we might have, so we have to be prepared.

As Russia has boosted the level aggression, we have to boost the level of defense also to comply with this. And this is, I think, very important that we will get the strong decisions from this Madrid summit to say exactly that.

SCIUTTO: President Zelenskyy of Ukraine has asked NATO today, once again, about Ukraine's potential membership in the alliance and he says he asked the question, has Ukraine not paid enough to join? Do you believe NATO should go along the path of allowing Ukraine to enter?

KALLAS: We have always been believers in the open door policy of NATO, so that all the members of the countries that want to join have to go through the process. And if all the allies agree, they can join. I think it's not up to Russia or any other state outside the alliance to say who can be or who cannot be a member of the alliance. So, if Ukraine wants to take this path, this is up to them to decide and, of course, then the allies have to do their part either to accept this or not to accept this.

We have been strong supporters to Ukraine in all the aspects and also the other countries that want to join the alliance.

SCIUTTO: Do you believe Ukraine is ready to join the NATO alliance?

KALLAS: Well, looking at the pictures that we saw from Ukraine right now, I think their hands are full with defending their country and pushing back Russian aggression, But if they manage to do that and if they win this war, I think these processes can move on.

SCIUTTO: One final question before we go. Sweden and Finland are now on the path to join NATO, Turkey having withdrawn its opposition to their joining the alliance. How important is their membership in your view to NATO's positioning and strength going forward?

KALLAS: I think these are two very strong countries also in terms of defense. And if they join NATO, the center of NATO moves also to north. And for us, it definitely means stronger security in our region. But I think it's also important to the other allies in NATO that Sweden and Finland are joining. So, we welcome the trilateral agreement that they reached today and I hope that the process of accession will be short and effective.

SCIUTTO: Prime Minister Kaja Kallas, it's nice to speak with you again. Thanks so much for joining us.

KALLAS: Thank you.

HARLOW: Really great to hear from her.

Still ahead, shockwaves back in the United States after yesterday's January 6th hearing, stunning testimony. Now, a senior House Republican who did not back impeaching President Trump for inciting an insurrection predicts to CNN this will lead to indictments.

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