Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

New Video Shows Russian Attack on Shopping Mall; NATO Formally Invites Sweden and Finland to Join; Supreme Court Justice Stephen Breyer Set to Retire Tomorrow; Fallout From Explosive January 6 Testimony Continues. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired June 29, 2022 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:02]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. LAUREN BOEBERT (R-CO): The church is supposed to direct the government. The government is not supposed to direct the church. That is not how our founding fathers intended it. And I'm tired of this separation of church and state junk.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN KING, CNN HOST: You might want to read a history book.

She made those comments that religious service on Sunday. Yesterday, she won her primary election.

Thanks for your time today on INSIDE POLITICS. We will see you back here tomorrow. Ana Cabrera picks up our coverage right now.

ANA CABRERA, CNN HOST: Hello. I'm Ana Cabrera in New York. Thank you for being with us.

Today, the aftershocks of a last-minute hearing and a former president who is potentially on shakier legal ground. In measured words, former West Wing aide Cassidy Hutchinson may have delivered the most scathing portrayal ever of a sitting president.

One senior House Republican tells CNN -- quote -- "This testimony will lead to indictments."

Hutchinson's bombshell testimony included Trump knowing some of his supporters were armed in the hours before the Capitol attack, and he wanted to join them there at the Capitol, despite a warning from former White House counsel Pat Cipollone that Trump and others could face criminal charges if they did.

Now, today one of the two Republican lawmakers on the January 6 Committee, Vice Chair Liz Cheney, is calling on Cipollone to testify.

"As we heard yesterday, White House counsel Pat Cipollone had significant concerns about Trump's January 6 activities. It's time for Mr. Cipollone to testify on the record. Any concerns he has about the institutional interests of his prior office are outweighed by the need for his testimony," she writes.

Meantime, both Trump and the Secret Service are denying Hutchinson's secondhand account that Trump flew into a rage when he was told that he could not go to the Capitol. Hutchinson said under oath that she was told that Trump lunged at the steering wheel of his limo and then at the Secret Service agent in charge.

CNN senior crime and justice reporter Katelyn Polantz joins us now.

Katelyn, any inkling of what the Justice Department is doing next?

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Well, that is going to be the question everyone's mind now, Ana.

And, right now, from legal experts that I have spent the morning talking to, there are two things that the Justice Department are going to be needing to look at in the coming days, weeks, months, years.

One is the policy decision. Is there an appetite for this Justice Department to want to investigate and potentially charge the president of the United States when he was president regarding efforts related to an election? That is not an insignificant question. That is a huge policy question that the Justice Department would need to confront.

Separately, there is this question of, is there an action that could be charged? Is there something that would make sense for Donald Trump to face some sort of legal exposure? And the overwhelming response that I have gotten from various defense attorneys this morning was that, yes, there is the potential for legal exposure here, specifically based on the testimony from Cassidy Hutchinson.

Some of what I was hearing was from people that have defended Trump in the past. One person I talked to was Ty Cobb. He was a defense attorney in the White House representing the presidency and Trump during the Mueller investigation. At that point, he did not believe Donald Trump should ever be charged with a crime related to that.

He told me that this is different. He said: "If this isn't insurrection, I don't know what is." And his points were specifically about looking at this armed group of supporters, Trump knowing that they were armed, wanting to rile them up at his rally, and also believing that Trump may have been concurring with this "Hang Mike Pence" chant.

Now, to be sure, Donald Trump is not charged at this time. And if the Justice Department were to want to pursue something here, there would be a very long road ahead and much evidence would need to be gathered, recreated before a grand jury -- Ana.

CABRERA: Katelyn Polantz, thank you very much for your reporting.

A Secret Service official says the agents inside the presidential limo on January 6 are willing to testify and dispute the claims that former President Trump lunged for the steering wheel and then at an agent.

CNN security correspondent Josh Campbell joins us now. Josh, what more are you hearing about possible testimony from these

agents?

JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Ana, we're told -- Ana, we're told that they do want to testify.

Apparently, yesterday, the Department of Homeland Security, which oversees the Secret Service, after that stunning testimony, they reached out to the committee and said that we have agents that want to testify that will refute some of what we heard.

And just to set the stage for our viewers here, what happened was, this former Trump aide, Cassidy Hutchinson, said that she was told by the former deputy White House chief of staff that Trump was so irate after being told that he couldn't go to the Capitol that he lunged at a Secret Service agent, that he reached for the steering wheel in the car.

[13:05:05]

That deputy White House chief of staff says that that never happened, he never told this witness that. And we're also told by a Secret Service official that the lead agent who was in the suburban when this happened said the incident never happened.

Now, the committee, we have not yet heard back from them specifically about whether they will call these witnesses to testify. They did issue a statement saying they want to hear from anyone who has information.

We are getting pushback from Hutchinson's attorney, who says in a statement -- I will read part of it -- that "Ms. Hutchins testified under oath and recounted what she was told. Those with knowledge of the episode also should testify under oath."

Ana, we will have to wait and see whether or not those agents actually go before the committee.

CABRERA: OK, Josh Campbell, a lot of interest in that particular line of questioning. Thank you very much.

Let's continue this conversation.

And joining us now is Norm Eisen. He was counsel to the House Democrats during Donald Trump's first impeachment trial and was the ethics czar in the Obama White House, also with us, Caroline Polisi. She is a federal and white-collar crime defense attorney.

And thank you both for being with us to help us navigate where we are right now.

After all the testimony yesterday, Norm, what does the DOJ do?

NORMAN EISEN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, Ana, the -- I think the DOJ will continue its investigation. We know that there are multiple grand juries looking at these events,

and particularly at one of the main issues from prior hearings, the false electoral certificates. But it's not only a question about DOJ, because state prosecutors, including the DA in Atlanta, Fani Willis, are looking at some of this same evidence.

So we're going to see continued acceleration on the federal and state front, and now Trump's involvement in the violence of January 6 coming under scrutiny.

CABRERA: Sure.

And I had one former federal prosecutor telling me that, before yesterday's testimony, he was in the camp of DOJ is not going to touch this, it's not likely to lead to an indictment of the former president, certainly. He says now, after listening to that testimony, he's in the headspace of, how can the DOJ not move forward with an indictment?

Caroline, let me come to you, because, typically, federal investigations are private, right? And then, if there were to be an indictment, federal trials are held behind closed doors. There aren't any cameras.

But here, given the hearings are all public and the American people already know the evidence, does that help or hurt Merrick Garland in having to make this decision about whether to indict former President Trump?

CAROLINE POLISI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, well, Ana, typically, it's sort of common knowledge DOJ would not like to have sort of the January 6 Committee going first, as it were.

The public display of testimony can really muck up investigations and prosecutions. However, in this very unique case, I would note we do know that Merrick Garland has publicly asked for the transcripts of these depositions. And there's been some back-and-forth between the committee and DOJ.

So it does look like DOJ is sort of taking a backseat here. They will collect the evidence as it comes to them. But I would agree with Norm. There are now a plethora of potential criminal charges at play.

We talk a lot about what crimes could be charged here. And yesterday was the first time I certainly saw that we saw a through line between the seditious conspiracy, the violence that took place that day we heard about in the first hearing with the Oath Keepers and the Proud Boys, and actually President Trump.

Up until this time yesterday, essentially, I could only see exposure for obstruction of an official proceeding, potentially obstruction, conspiracy to defraud the United States, things of that nature. Now we're getting closer to the realm of actually seditious conspiracy.

CABRERA: Wow. Norm, let's revisit one of the key moments from yesterday's testimony. Here's what Hutchinson says the White House counsel told her about Trump wanting to go to the Capitol on January 6.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASSIDY HUTCHINSON, FORMER AIDE TO MARK MEADOWS: Mr. Cipollone said something to the effect of: "Please make sure we don't go up to the Capitol, Cassidy. Keep in touch with me. We're going to get charged with every crime imaginable if we make that movement happen."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: Today, Liz Cheney is upping the pressure on Cipollone to testify. We read her tweet earlier.

Norm, how can he not testify?

EISEN: Ana, he should testify.

It's his duty as an officer of the court, a loyal American. I have known Pat for a long time. He was my adversary in the first impeachment. He ought to testify. He can make the choice not to testify. If he does that, then DOJ and Congress will have a set of tough choices to make about whether to force his testimony.

They can do that. They can attempt to go to court and get an order to force it.

[13:10:00]

But, Ana, the thing that is so striking there is, he's warning of the very crimes that this violence leads to, that includes, as the last act, that conspiracy to obstruct Congress or a conspiracy to defraud the United States. A federal judge has already found those crimes are likely. We need to hear from Pat Cipollone about his knowledge.

CABRERA: Yes, because now we know that there was knowledge ahead of this that this crowd could be violent. We know now that this crowd was armed, that the president knew they were armed when he was tweeting about Mike Pence not having courage.

We knew that he knew they were armed when he pressed to join them at the Capitol. He knew they were armed when Republicans in the Capitol were calling Mark Meadows to urge Trump to put out a statement to call off the rioters, that their lives were in danger.

Caroline, he knew as he watched the violence unfold. Is there a crime there?

POLISI: Well, it gets you much closer to -- as I said previously, there was talk about inciting a riot. And the evidence presented yesterday goes a lot further towards getting you there.

There is a very broad First Amendment protection in speech. And heretofore, President Trump had said, what did I know about what could spontaneously happen that day? And he has big First Amendment rights to say whatever he wants.

Well, now we know that he had the foreknowledge that many in this crowd were -- we -- he knew the actual weapons that they had. And, in fact, he wanted to take the magnetizers down so that the rioters could get on the Ellipse and then march to the Capitol.

So there's a lot more in terms of the actual facts at play here that prosecutors will have to deal with.

CABRERA: So, circling back to the incident involving the Secret Service, Norm, Hutchinson says she was told by Trump's then deputy chief of staff for operations that Trump tried to grab the steering wheel, that he lunged at the Secret Service agent who was driving to try to go to the Capitol.

Well, now the Secret Service is telling CNN this incident didn't happen and they're prepared to provide testimony under oath. Does this impact Hutchinson's credibility as a witness? And what about the credibility of the committee?

EISEN: Ana, I don't think it impacts her credibility or that of the committee.

I believe she was testifying truthfully. Let's see. She didn't say she witnessed it. She described what she was told. That deputy chief of staff is known as a very intense Trump partisan. Let's see what he and others say under oath, if they're willing to come under oath.

And, Ana, they can't just come in and testify for 60 seconds and issue a denial and walk out. Let these Trump partisans tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so their credibility can be gauged.

So, the -- and the final thing I would say about this is, it's color. It adds life to the account. But in terms of a conspiracy to defraud the United States, to obstruct Congress, grabbing the steering wheel or not doesn't really matter, so a little bit beside the main point of the crimes, but I believe Cassidy.

CABRERA: OK, Norm Eisen and Caroline Polisi, thank you both so much. Good to have you here.

Just in to CNN, Supreme Court Justice Stephen Breyer says he will enter retirement starting at noon tomorrow.

Let's go to CNN Supreme Court reporter Ariane de Vogue.

And, Ariane, what more can you tell us?

ARIANE DE VOGUE, CNN SUPREME COURT REPORTER: Right.

Justice Breyer made it official. His retirement will take effect tomorrow at noon. We have opinions tomorrow morning, two big cases remain, and an orders list. He can't retire until that happens. But then he will. And Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson will likely be sworn in to take his place. He wrote a letter to the president today saying it was his great honor

to serve. But this has to come as a really poignant time for him. Breyer, 83 years old, has been on this bench for some 27 years, but he's going out as the Supreme Court struck down Roe v. Wade. That is, for him, the court moving backwards. That decision had been on the books longer than his own tenure.

He made the decision to have the other liberals join with him in a scathing dissent. He also wrote a dissent when the court expanded gun rights for the first time in a decade. It's been a very tense term. You can tell, this expedited time frame, these justices want to get out of town. There's been tension. There's been a security fence around the court itself.

So this is moving quickly now. And soon we're going to have a new justice, somebody maybe with a little bit of fresh perspective. She's going to be a lot younger, Judge Jackson, and she will also be the court's first black woman to take the bench. So that's historic.

[13:15:03]

CABRERA: So would she be sworn in immediately following his official retirement? Will that happen tomorrow as well?

DE VOGUE: We think so. We think so. We don't have all the details.

But, usually, you have to have the nine justices on, because, even though this term is coming to a close, there's always these emergency petitions that come in.

So they'd like to have things be seamless. He clearly wanted to say: This is what I'm going to do. She has been confirmed. I said that I would step down at the end of the term, upon her confirmation.

So that's what we think, although the court hasn't given us all the details yet.

CABRERA: OK. Stay tuned. We will be watching closely and reporting out.

Thank you, Ariane de Vogue.

Overseas now, Putin wrong again. On the same day NATO is calling Russia its most direct threat, the alliance is getting bigger and stronger. That's exactly what the Kremlin didn't want.

Plus, the U.S. is revealing plans to fight monkeypox in states with higher case counts. We will fill you in on that.

And a black family was stripped of its beachfront property nearly 100 years ago. The valuable land in California is now going back to its rightful owners.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:20:25] CABRERA: Two big moves to strengthen NATO today, both in response to Russia's invasion of Ukraine and both exactly what Vladimir Putin didn't want.

The alliance has formally invited Finland and Sweden to join after Turkey finally dropped its opposition. Now, this will be the Western alliance's most important expansion in decades. And leaders promise the admission process will go smoothly and quickly.

While that plays out, President Biden says the U.S. and the alliance are also stepping up, announcing new troop movements, equipment shipments and military installations to beef up NATO's eastern flank.

CNN's Phil Mattingly is in Madrid for the summit.

Phil, if Putin hoped for a weaker NATO, it's clear that plan backfired.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Ana, there is no better demonstration about just how catastrophically wrong that idea could be than the last 24 hours. There's no question about it.

The entire NATO coalition announcing a far more robust force posture than they have had in decades, since the Cold War, the United States in particular surging forces by air, by land, by sea, the U.S. putting its first permanent headquarters in Poland, adding troops to Romania, flight squadrons in the U.K., in Spain and Germany with air support as well.

This is a dramatic shift of how the U.S. has approached Europe and the region and how the entire NATO alliance has as well. And there's no more dramatic issue than the addition and likely addition in the months ahead of two new member states to the NATO alliance.

And this is, in large part, the work of President Biden behind the scenes, Ana. This actually goes back to December, when President Biden placed a phone call to Finnish President Sauli Niinisto and broached the idea, as Russia was building up troops on the border of Ukraine, that perhaps Finland, who its population and its government had never been much to move towards the idea of joining NATO, should consider that possibility.

Those phone calls continued. A meeting at the White House continued as well. And over the course of the last several weeks, President Biden and NATO officials, along with those from Finland and Sweden, worked behind the scenes to eliminate the last hurdle, a potential veto from Turkey.

That was finalized yesterday. The president met with Turkish President Erdogan earlier today, thanked him for the efforts to get to this place. And now Russia and Sweden -- or Finland and Sweden are on the path to join the NATO alliance.

Finland alone, an 800-mile border with Russia, that will soon be a border of NATO, Finland -- Ana.

CABRERA: Phil Mattingly in Madrid for us, thank you.

As NATO leaders meet, the United Nations says it has documented more than 10,000 civilian casualties in Ukraine since the invasion, with nearly 5,000 deaths.

And new video shows the moment a Russian missile hits a busy shopping mall. This happened Monday in Central Ukraine. Rescuers are still working to try to clear all the debris. An official says going through all the destruction will take days.

CNN's Scott McLean is in Kyiv.

Scott, we're getting really grim reports of what's being found as crews search that rubble.

SCOTT MCLEAN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely, Ana.

Look, the missile that was used here was an older Russian missile, perhaps less accurate than the newer varieties, but certainly no less deadly. We're talking about a bomb with 2,200 pounds of payload. And you can see from the CCTV footage to captured the moment of impact just how big the impact actually was.

There is separate security footage that was captured in a nearby park about 500 or so yards away, where you see there is some kind of a visual or audio warning that people get that this strike is incoming. And many people manage to take cover.

One guy grabs a child, rushes behind a tree. One person on impact actually jumps into that pond there, as the debris, the hot shrapnel rains down on that area. It is absolutely terrifying. And remember the Kremenchuk is nowhere near the front lines. We're talking about the closest front line probably is 100 miles away to the south.

And so, by and large, life would be going on as normal. People would be taking a stroll in the park. There is not war at the doorstep. But, obviously, everywhere in Ukraine, there's the constant threat of missile strikes, which is why perhaps not everyone heeded the warning to take shelter when those sirens went off.

Either way, the Russians say that they were aiming at a legitimate military target, a cache of foreign weapons. The Ukrainians say there were no military targets in sight and that the Russians were aiming at innocent civilians at that mall.

Right now, you mentioned the grim cleanup efforts, where they're dismantling what is left, really a shell of a building. They have found 18 bodies. They have also found 11 body parts. Now they have the task of trying to figure out how many bodies those 11 parts actually belong to.

[13:25:05]

One other thing to mention quickly, Ana, and that we just got news this afternoon that 144 Ukrainian troops have been -- will be coming home in a prisoner exchange with the Russians, in exchange for 144 Russian troops.

And what's significant here is that 95 of them were from the Azovstal steel plant, where Ukrainians held out for three months. This is surprising, perhaps, because some of them were from the Azov regiment, which Russia has tried to paint as a far right extremist neo-Nazi group.

Perhaps not surprising, though, because Ukraine has -- or the Ukrainian president has also made clear that these are very public prisoners. And, of course, the world is watching, Ana.

CABRERA: Right.

That Azovstal steel plant, to remind our viewers, was the plant in Mariupol where all those fighters were holding tight for the longest time under the worst of conditions.

Scott McLean, thank you. That is a glimmer of good news there, that those people are still alive and being returned.

Back to our top story now. As the January 6 Committee goes public with its eye-opening investigation, House Republicans are privately stunned. Is the future of their party on the line?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)