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Ex-WH Aide: Trump Knew Some At Jan. 6 Rally Had Weapons And Didn't Care, Wanted Metal Detectors Taken Away; R. Kelly Sentenced To 30 Years In Prison; Two Charged As Texas Migrant Death Toll Rises To 53; U.S. Economy Shrank More Than Expected In 1st Quarter Of 2022. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired June 29, 2022 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: The CDC recommends a vaccination and soon within two weeks of exposure, really as soon as possible, but certainly within those two weeks. Also, if you've had close physical contact with someone who had monkeypox and you are were or were at an event where it was spreading, let's say at a Pride event or perhaps you live in an area where there's a lot of monkeypox, also gay men with recent multiple sex partners. Again, if you were at an event where monkeypox was spreading, for example, at Pride or for example if you live in an area where there's a lot of monkeypox spread.

So you don't have to know, hey, I know that Bob had it and I had sex with Bob, it doesn't have to be that specific. If you just know that you were at an event where it was spreading, and that you had close contact, that's when they're saying you should get the vaccine. Victor? Alisyn?

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: Elizabeth Cohen, thank you.

COHEN: Thanks.

CAMEROTA: It's the top of the hour on CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Alisyn Camerota.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: I'm Victor Blackwell.

Two hours of explosive testimony about Donald Trump's actions and state of mind on January 6th are raising some new legal questions. Former White House aide Cassidy Hutchinson revealed that White House lawyer Pat Cipollone was worried that he along with Trump's entire team would face multiple criminal charges if the former President joined the rioters at the Capitol. Republican congresswoman, Liz Cheney is now ramping up the pressure on Cipollone to testify.

CAMEROTA: Hutchinson also said the President knew his supporters were armed and sent them to the Capitol anyway.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASSIDY HUTCHINSON, FORMER AIDE TO TRUMP WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF TO MARK MEADOWS: I was in the vicinity of a conversation where I overheard the president say something to the effect of, "I don't effing care that they have weapons. They're not here to hurt me. Take the effing mags away. Let my people in. They can march to the Capitol from here."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: With us now CNN's Melanie Zanona is on Capitol Hill for us and CNN National Security Correspondent Josh Campbell is with us. So Melanie, how are Republican lawmakers reacting to everything we heard yesterday?

MELANIE ZANONA, CNN CAPITOL HILL REPORTER: Well, I've been checking in with Republicans throughout the course of these hearings for their reaction and I got to tell you, yesterday was the first time that I heard Republicans acknowledge at least privately just how serious this is for Donald Trump and his allies. They were particularly alarmed that some reports that Trump had actually known that the mob was armed and he sent them to the Capitol anyway and that, in fact, he wanted to join them.

One senior House Republican who did not support impeachment told me that they thought there was going to be indictments after this testimony. Another GOP lawmaker was joking that after watching the hearings, they wanted to throw their lunch against the wall, which is something we learned yesterday that Trump apparently did when he was angry. And another Republican told me that this shows how personally involved Trump was in the effort to overturn the 2020 election.

Now, of course, none of them are saying this on the record, which I think is telling. It shows that Trump is still very much in command of this Republican Party, that Republicans are still afraid to speak out against him. And we should also point out that so far, GOP leaders have remained silent, including Kevin McCarthy, the House GOP leader who was mentioned in the testimony yesterday as worried about the idea that Trump might come to the Capitol, but we will continue to press them and they will return from a recess break and a few weeks here.

BLACKWELL: All right. Josh, let me come to you and this wow moment during the testimony, Hutchinson's testimony about the physical altercation in the SUV after the speech on the Ellipse. Some on the Secret Service though disputing that account. Tell us about it.

JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Right. There were several stunning moments at that hearing yesterday before the January 6 Select Committee among them involved this alleged incident that took place in the presidential suburban as Trump was getting ready to leave the rally on January 6, some of the details are that - are being disputed by some Secret Service officials. First, take a listen to that moment yesterday by this former Trump White House aide.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HUTCHINSON: The president said something to the effect of, "I'm the effing president. Take me up to the Capitol now." To which Bobby responded, "Sir, we have to go back to the West Wing." The president reached up towards the front of the vehicle to grab at the steering wheel. Mr. Engel grabbed his arm, said, "Sir, you need to take your hand off the steering wheel. We're going back to the West Wing. We're not going to the Capitol." Mr. Trump then used his free hand to lunge towards Bobby Engel. And when Mr. Ornato had recounted this story to me, he had motion towards his clavicles.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMPBELL: Now, that moment describing the reaction of an irate president. What we're told by a secret service official is that the deputy White House chief of staff at the time who Ms. Hutchinson testified told her about this encounter, according to the Secret Service official, that person, Tony Ornato was saying that he never had that conversation with her. It's also important to point out that the lead Secret Service agent who was in the vehicle at the time, he according to the Secret Service official says that that incident never happened.

[15:05:05]

Now, the Department of Homeland Security reached out to the January 6 Committee. They say that they were willing to make these agents available to testify on the record. Her attorney, Ms. Hutchinson's attorney is pushing back on the Secret Service. I'll read you part of their statement.

They say that Ms. Hutchinson testified under oath and recounted what she was told. Those with knowledge of the episode also should testify under oath.

So what we have here right now is someone who was testifying in her own name before the Committee under penalty of perjury. Compare that with what we're hearing from Secret Service officials who haven't yet gone on the record, haven't yet gone before the Committee. They say they're disputing this. We will have to wait and see whether or not they actually do testify.

Finally, though, it's important to point out as stunning as this moment was, one thing that I think is more important to keep in mind and that is no witness thus far has disputed the idea that Trump was so angry about not being able to go to the Capitol. At that point, we know from her testimony, from the testimony of others, from listening to the police scanner traffic on that day that members of that angry crowd had weapons and Trump was trying to lead that crowd to the capitol where these electoral votes were being counted.

He obviously very angry according to this testimony that he couldn't go, he had to return to the White House, but still very stunning that a president knowing this crowd was angry and was armed still wanting to lead them to where those votes were being counted, Victor and Alisyn.

BLACKWELL: Josh Campbell, Melanie Zanona, thank you very much.

Let's bring in now Constitutional Law Attorney Page Pate, CNN Political Analyst and New York Times Reporter Astead Herndon and CNN Chief Political Analyst, Gloria Borger. Welcome to you all. Page, let me start where Vice Chair Liz Cheney started the day with

this tweet focused on the former White House Counsel. She tweeted, "As we heard yesterday, White House Counsel Pat Cipollone had significant concerns regarding Trump's January 6 activities. It's time for Mr. Cipollone to testify on the record. Any concerns he has about the institutional interest of his private office are outweighed by the need for his testimony."

He's got some concerns about privilege. How valid are those concerns?

PAGE PATE, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Victor, I think out of all the potential witnesses, Pat Cipollone has the best argument that he should not have to testify based on privilege. He is a lawyer in the White House. He's giving advice to the President. That is the type of thing that is normally protected and it's not something that can be defeated by a subpoena.

But what we heard from Rep. Cheney is basically laying the groundwork to show the need for that testimony and, ultimately, that's what a court will balance. How important is the privilege? How important is the need? And in this case, we may be to the point with the other testimony and the other evidence where the need can outweigh that privilege, so it is possible.

CAMEROTA: Gloria, yesterday, one of the most stunning things is that we heard for the first time from Cassidy Hutchinson's testimony that President Trump knew that they had weapons. He knew they had weapons on some level, he's appeared to approve of them having weapons, he wanted the magnetometers taken down and it's just - once again, it calls up how we heard from some of the Republican Congressman afterwards and the Trump supporters, it was just a regular tourist visit. These were peaceful people.

And I just have to remind people what - even President Trump said about how peaceful and loving the crowd was. This is what he told Fox.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: There was such love at that rally. You had over a million people there and they were peaceful people. These were great people. The crowd was unbelievable and I mentioned the word love, the love in the air I've never seen anything like it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: I guess if you substitute the word weapons for love that that makes sense what he said there. We knew it was a lie at the time, but now we know how he was told that there were weapons.

GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: He was told directly by the Secret Service that there were weapons and people who worked with him were told a total of 15 times both before and on January 6 that there were going to be weapons and that there was going to be trouble.

So we know that Donald Trump knew and yet, of course, we shouldn't be surprised that in an interview, he's saying that these were peaceful people, lots of them clearly were, but some of them had AR-15. They were in trees as we saw yesterday. They didn't want to go through the magnetometers because they wanted to wait, so they could eventually get through once the program started.

He knew this and yet he wanted to go there and lead them to violence, it seems at the doorstep of the Capitol and this is what Pat Cipollone who you're talking about before, this is what Pat Cipollone was saying, you cannot do this. Warning him about this, warning his aides about this and no one listened.

[15:10:00]

BLACKWELL: Astead, every time there's one of these big revelations we all stop and say is this the moment is this the time that there's going to be a shift or pivot from some of his supporters in Congress and they are privately stunned but not coming forward. We got this from Trump advisor who was in a group text with other Trump aides, and advisers told us they're not taking this lightly, "For the first time since the hearing started, no one is dismissing this." Is this moment any different?

ASTEAD HERNDON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: It is hard to believe that this moment is different. But I do think if we were to have a breaking point among some folks, it will come from something like this. Things that are direct testimony about the President's own actions and knowledge of what took place.

But I think it's important with these hearings to kind of separate the facts, the kind of journalistic - the history questions, the democracy questions from the politics of it.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

HERNDON: And I think what we had in that hearing yesterday was a really explicit example that as everyone here is laying out, this was not a question of knowledge for Donald Trump, for Mark Meadows, for the people around him. They were armed with it. They had the information to know that arms would be there and that the threat of violence was very real. They did not care, according to that testimony.

And so we have those facts, but politics-wise, we are not really seeing the type of evidence we would see. They say that people have become really motivated to punish Republicans in the future for these actions. I think it's important to look at congressional candidates here who are talking to folks on the ground, who are a little more plugged into the grassroots and we're not seeing them really changed their messages to go all in on the question of January 6th, to go all in on democracy protection. They're still focusing on the economy. They're still focusing on those - on public safety, more of those type issues.

And so I think that that is like what we should look for as the signs here. If we were to get Democratic Party that we're changing or Republican Party that was changing because of these hearings, I think we would look to the field to those congressional candidates and they will give us those answers. We don't have that just so far.

CAMEROTA: Page, I know that many of these things are legally complicated, but what about witness intimidation? I mean, what they closed with yesterday seems like the low-hanging fruit of charges. I mean, we all understand witness intimidation. We all know that we would be jailed if we attempted to do it.

And the way, Liz Cheney - I think we have this that we can pull up for you of what she said yesterday - explaining what some of these witnesses have been subjected to before going in front of the Committee, so listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): Well, what they said to me is, as long as I continue to be a team player, they know I'm on the right team. I'm doing the right thing. I'm protecting who I need to protect. I'll continue to stay in good graces in Trump world and they have reminded me a couple of times that Trump does read transcripts.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Should it be easy to charge someone with that crime?

PATE: Well, yes and no. Yes, if this happened in an ongoing federal criminal investigation that would clearly qualify as a proceeding, because then if you reach out and try to influence a witness, either change what they're going to say or keep them from testifying, then that is clear obstruction. People get charged of that all the time in federal court.

Here I think the question is going to be how much of a proceeding are these witnesses or potential witnesses participating in? Did they receive a subpoena to testify in front of the Committee and refuse it because of what they were being told? If so, then, yes, I think that's a good case certainly needs to be looked into.

BLACKWELL: And balance what we're seeing with this witness intimidation with this 26-year-old who comes forward to answer these questions. Gloria, to you, Chairman Thompson ended the hearing by saying to the handful of witnesses who have been outliers in our investigation, if you heard some testimony today and suddenly you remember things you couldn't previously recall or you've got some clarity or courage, the doors are open.

How much has do you believe just the testimony, the presence of Cassidy Hutchinson shifted, potentially the investigation moving forward in the hearings?

BORGER: Well, we know that even before Cassidy Hutchinson that they were getting an awful lot of stuff in over the transom, that this isn't the first time that Bennie Thompson has said please come in and talk to us. I think saying it after you saw this 26 year old woman do this at great personal risk, I might add, that he said it again because he was trying to encourage other people to be courageous. Liz Cheney said it to Pat Cipollone, you can come in. You can get over

this White House Counsel nonsense and we can figure out a way for you to talk before the Committee in a more formal way. But what they're trying to do is engage the American public in this and say, look, there's a lot at stake here and we need people to come in and to talk to us. And I think that's what he was doing and that's what the Committee wants.

[15:15:00]

And don't forget they've already interviewed over a thousand people, may be up to more than that at now. So go on in and talk to them. They're not done.

CAMEROTA: Gloria Borger, Astead Herndon and Page Pate, thank you all.

BORGER: Mm-hm.

BLACKWELL: Gruesome developments out of Texas where the death toll is rising after a semi truck packed with migrants was abandoned. We've got the latest in the investigation ahead.

CAMEROTA: And the U.S. economy shrank at a faster pace than economists estimated, fueling fears that a recession may be close. We have more on that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:19:59]

CAMEROTA: This just in to CNN, disgraced singer R. Kelly has been sentenced to 30 years in prison. He was convicted of nine counts including racketeering and sex trafficking charges.

BLACKWELL: CNN's Jean Casarez joins us from outside the courthouse. Get us up to date what you hear.

JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, first of all, the sentencing guidelines allowed to be sentenced up to life in prison. So this is 30 years and our Kelly is 55 years old right now. There were seven victims that stood up in court and gave victim impact statements today. They were all very emotional. They were allowed to direct some of their talking to R. Kelly in general.

There was one victim that said, I was sexually exploited 23 years ago and as the years went on, I kept wondering, why is nothing happening here. And then she turned to R. Kelly and she said, now you're going to understand what it's like to not have your freedom.

Another victim said that she truly hopes that all can move on from this and she prays to God that people can heal.

Another victim stood up with her father at the podium and she said, my father was sexually abused when he was young, and he didn't sexually abuse me. Now that was in response to the mitigating factors that the defense actually put on. There are documents that have been unsealed in the last few days

related to the sexual abuse that R. Kelly had when he was beginning to be six years old. It's alleged in those documents that family members, others family friends started sexually assaulting and abusing him from six onward. One relative even began to take pictures of him.

And the defense use this to try to mitigate a lifetime sentence for our Kelly saying this in part is what caused him to be who he was and that a forensic psychiatrists determined he was not a pedophile, but it was just a result of the abuse. But in some he was convicted of nine counts here, very serious, serious felonies, sexual exploitation of a child, bribery and sex trafficking across state lines, forced labor. Back to you.

CAMEROTA: Yes. Those survivors have been waiting a long time for justice. Jean Casarez, thank you.

BLACKWELL: Two people have now been charged after dozens of dead migrants were found abandoned inside a tractor trailer in San Antonio.

CAMEROTA: The death toll is now at 53 people, some may have been under 18 years old. CNN's Rosa Flores is live in San Antonio. So the Governor and officials just gave a briefing, what's the latest there, Rosa?

FLORES: Well, according to Gov. Abbott, one of the things that he plans to do as a result of this tragedy is add checkpoints that specifically target the trucks, like the truck that was involved in this particular case. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. GREG ABBOTT (R) TEXAS: As you all surely know, the truck passed through a border point - checkpoint. It was not inspected. It was not inspected because the Border Patrol does not have the resources to be able to inspect all of the trucks. And as a result, the Border Patrol did not have the capability of saving those lives. Mr. President, you can fix that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FLORES: Just a fact check on Governor there, it is unclear when the migrants that were inside this truck actually hopped into the truck, whether it was before or after the checkpoint after leaving the Laredo, Texas area. Now, according to Gov. Abbott, he's in Eagle Pass. This is one of the areas along the border that has seen a huge increase in the number of people attempting to cross into the United States. He, of course, runs Operation Lone Star, which has allowed a lot of more resources, both state and local to go to that - those border areas, to meet some of the capacity of that increased crossings into the United States.

Now, in regards to the latest involving the investigation into this tractor trailer tragedy, the latest is that two individuals have been charged. Now these charges are not for smuggling. These are for weapons charges by an undocumented person. So these two individuals could face up to 10 years in prison. We learned from court documents that their next court date is on July 1st, we have not heard from their attorneys. The death toll here increasing to 53.

Now, Alisyn and Victor, one of the things that's very complicated about this for local officials, including the medical examiner's office is identifying these individuals. This was a smuggling event. That's how officials describe it. So a lot of the individuals did not have IDs or they had multiple passports.

Now, preliminary indicators according to officials here, show that some of these individuals could be under the age of 18.

[15:25:06]

But they tell us that this is why they don't have a lot of details about nationalities or other information. Because this is a smuggling event and they're trying their best to identify these people.

BLACKWELL: It's going to be so hard to notify all those families. Rosa Flores for us there in San Antonio. Thank you.

CAMEROTA: Now, this - the economy shrank at a faster rate than expected during the first three months of this year, sparking new recession fears.

BLACKWELL: The GDP; gross domestic product, declined 1.6 percent From January to March. We're getting this news as Fed Chair Jerome Powell meets with Europe's financial leaders in Portugal. CNN Business Correspondent Rahel Solomon joins us now. So Fed Chair Jerome Powell is in Portugal as we said for the European Central Bank forum. What did he say about inflation?

RAHEL SOLOMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, let's actually start with GDP just because I think this was really interesting. We got our final read today and when you look at the last quarter of 2021, 6.9 percent compared to Q1, the first quarter of this year, negative 1.6 percent. And that really turned a lot of heads and raised some eyebrows about what happened.

Well, last quarter, we saw really blockbuster spending from consumers and companies as they replenish their inventory. This quarter, when you look under the hood of the report and really get a sense of what's happening in the economy gives you a better sense that it may not be as bad as it seems, which I know we don't talk about a lot these days with the economy but may not be as bad as it seems.

So we saw some decreases in exports in federal government some increases in imports, consumer spending and business spending. Essentially, the difference between exports and imports is what's really sort of driving that top line negative number. Essentially, we bought more foreign goods than we sold.

It would be like if you bought more on your credit card than you are getting in terms of like how much you make, so that sort of imbalance is part of the reason why we saw a negative number. But really important there, consumer business spending still strong, still growing and the consumer makes up about two-thirds of GDP, so that's good news.

I do want to say that that was backwards looking. That was for January, February and March. The question is how strong is the consumer? How much more will the consumer spend? We're going to get that report. Our first look at Q2 GDP on July 28, which is the same week that we hear from the Fed and get a sense of whether we are going to see more interest rate hikes.

With that said, we did hear from Powell today when he spoke with some of his European counterparts. Other central bankers and essentially just talked about how difficult fighting inflation has proven to be because of supply chain issues about how connected supply chain issues - supply chains have become.

And whether that's really proven to be difficult globally, but also just the war in Ukraine and the impact that that has had, I should say that we're going to get a really important inflation report tomorrow morning. You better believe, a lot of people are going to be watching it including us and including the Fed.

BLACKWELL: All right. Rahel Solomon, thank you.

CAMEROTA: Thanks, Rahel.

BLACKWELL: In a major rebuke of President Putin, NATO formally invites Finland and Sweden to join the Alliance. What this means for the war in Ukraine?

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