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Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson Sworn In As First Black Woman On Supreme Court; Jan. 6 CMTE Subpoena Cipollone After Ex-WH Aide's Stunning Testimony; Court Delivers Narrow Win For Biden Admin On "Remain In Mexico"; Fed Chair: Pandemic May Have Forever Altered Economy. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired June 30, 2022 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: The boy was rescued about a thousand feet from his home. Investigators think he climbed into a concrete drainage pipe while playing and then got lost. He was treated for hypothermia and dehydration police do not believe anyone else was involved. I mean, what an incredible survival stories that I don't like thinking about what he endured for eight days.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: Often these come up every once in a while and kid drinks rainwater in the forest, but you're in a sewer, there's nothing to eat or drink and you're there for more than a week. It is remarkable. Miraculous.

All right. Let's start the next hour now.

Top of the brand new hour now on CNN NEWSROOM. Thanks for staying with us. I'm Victor Blackwell.

CAMEROTA: And I'm Alisyn Camerota.

There's a lot happening on this final day of the Supreme Court session. This historic changing of the guard and a pivotal decision for the future of the environment. Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson was officially sworn in as the 116 member and the first black woman to serve on the bench.

But for her swearing in, there was a seismic decision on climate change. The High Court curbed the federal government's ability to regulate carbon emissions. This at a time when scientists are sounding the alarm on the pace of global warming.

BLACKWELL: Also today, President Biden lashed out at the Supreme Court over their decision to overturn Roe. He also supports now a filibuster carve out for Congress to codify abortion rights. He said that during his news conference at the NATO summit in Madrid, where he also announced new aid for Ukraine.

We'll discuss all of that this hour a little later, but first new developments in the January 6 investigation. The resources tell CNN that Cassidy Hutchinson is the former aide to Trump's chief of staff was contacted by someone in the former president's orbit to try to influence her testimony. Those revelations so damning that the Committee has now issued a subpoena for one of the central figures in the West Wing, Pat Cipollone, the former top lawyer at the Trump White House.

CAMEROTA: Let's go to CNN Congressional Correspondent Ryan Nobles. So Ryan, do we know who in Trump world was trying to influence Tuesday's testimony?

RYAN NOBLES, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: We do not yet, Alisyn. But you'll remember at the end of the hearing on Tuesday after Hutchinson's lengthy testimony about her time in the White House, the Vice Chair Liz Cheney shared two different examples of witnesses that had come before the January 6 Select Committee who relayed stories of individuals that were very close to the former President and his administration who implored these two witnesses to remain loyal to the former president and also reminded them that Donald Trump was watching and he was paying attention to the individuals that were being subpoenaed and testifying in front of this committee.

Now, the Committee has not come right out and said that they believe this is tantamount to witness intimidation, but they've strongly hinted that they believe it's at least heading in that direction. They've also said there are other examples of this, of witnesses who have come in and said that there have been at least some level of pressure put on them by people in Trump's orbit.

You'll remember Victor and Alisyn that Cassidy Hutchinson originally had an attorney that is thought to be close to the Trump World and then switched attorneys right before she became a lot more cooperative with the Committee. So all of this plays into the Committee and their look at exactly how the former president is handling these committee hearings, which we know from his own posts on his social media site, he is very unhappy about.

BLACKWELL: Ryan, let's talk about Pat Cipollone, a former White House Counsel. A source tells Dana Bash that Cipollone may agree to at least a limited interview. There is so much that he could tell this committee. The question is how much is he willing to share?

NOBLES: Yes. I think that's the big question, Victor. And it's also - the question is to what degree and in what form and fashion he's willing to kind of plug all these holes that the Committee is looking for him to plug especially after what they revealed, during the Hutchinson testimony. Just take a listen to what one member of the Committee believes Cipollone could help them with.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... that we will see Pat Cipollone testify.

REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): I really hope we will. I think that this is an instance where the presidency, the American people where we've been through something we've never been through before and where there's very real and significant chance that there was behavior underway, about which Mr. Cipollone expressed significant legal concerns and I think he has an obligation to testify.

(END VIDEO CLIP) NOBLES: That, of course, the Vice Chair Liz Cheney and getting back to the form and fashion in which Cipollone may sit for an interview. At this point, he - his advisors, people close to him saying he'd be willing to sit for a transcribed interview. Victor and Alisyn, the Committee would like to see much more. At the very least they'd like to be able to videotape his testimony to show clips of it in an open hearing. But what they would really like is for him to testify live very similar to what Cassidy Hutchinson did. This is going to be a negotiation process right now as they try and come to some sort of terms to get him to comply, this subpoena being the first big step in that direction.

[15:05:05]

CAMEROTA: Okay. Ryan Nobles, thank you very much for the update.

Joining us now is Michael Cohen. He is the former personal attorney and fixer for former President Trump. He is now the host of the Mea Culpa podcast. Michael, great to see you. So let's start ...

MICHAEL COHEN: It's nice to see you, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: ... let's start there with what Ryan was just reporting and that's what we heard this morning from Alyssa Farah Griffin. She was the Communications Director in the White House and she said that Team Trump has been providing and supplying lawyers for the staffers who are testifying in front of the January 6 Committee, including Cassidy Hutchinson before she changed to her own lawyer. As President Trump's former personal attorney, what do you think of that practice?

COHEN: Yes. So this is part and parcel for the Donald Trump game plan. What you do is you pay for the lawyers. That way, the lawyers really aren't dedicated to the client. They're dedicated to the guy who's paying the bill, which of course is team Trump. The reason that they're doing that is to keep you on message and the second that you deviate from the message that Donald wants, you get cut off something that he did to me as well.

I'm very proud of her for realizing exactly what was going on here and making the decision to move away from the Trump paid for counsel and move to her own. Some - an attorney that will now have her best interest in.

CAMEROTA: Yes. One of the things that she testified to was the things that she saw and heard, including former President Trump's outbursts, so let me play a portion of that for you.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASSIDY HUTCHINSON, FORMER AIDE TO MARK MEADOWS: Mr. Trump then used his free hand to lunge towards Bobby Engel. And mister - when Mr. Ornato had recounted this story to me, he had motioned towards his clavicles.

There were several times throughout my tenure with the chief of staff that I was aware of him either throwing dishes or flipping the tablecloth.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Does that sound like Donald Trump to you?

COHEN: Okay. Look, I've never seen Donald take a burger and ketchup and throw it against the wall. I have seen him get incredibly, incredibly angry. I've seen him throw things, newspapers. I've seen him throw a magazine, some paper, but I've never seen him throw ketchup. Is it possible? Sure.

But one of the problems is, look, everybody who saw those January 6 earrings will say the same thing. This was a great, great - I mean, this was just a great fly on the wall presentation. I mean, it's like going to see Top Gun: Maverick. You just walked out and you felt really good that finally, finally something was going to happen. This was now going to be the impetus for Merrick Garland in order to do something via the DOJ.

The problem with the testimony is that it's all hearsay as it relates to Donald Trump, not to the other people who have emailed ...

CAMEROTA: Well, I mean, not exactly. Some - one of the things that she said - I mean, some of the things she actually heard, she was actually in the room for some of them.

COHEN: Yes. It's still hearsay. It's out of court statements offered to prove the truth of the matter asserted therein. Think of - that's the definition of hearsay. Donald will say, I have no idea what you're talking about. I never told anyone of these people to do it. In fact, show me if you think I did say it, show me one piece of paper that I hand wrote, show me an email, show me a text message, show me a voicemail.

Donald Trump learned from the best and I'm referring to Roy Cohn, which is have no fingerprints on anything and that's what he did. But all of these acolytes that were around him ...

CAMEROTA: Yes.

COHEN: ... each and every one of them now are in serious jeopardy.

CAMEROTA: Michael, about that testimony where she said that one of the Secret Service - basically, she heard the story from - about the Secret Service about Donald Trump lunging for the wheel of the beast as they call the Presidential limo and for the clavicles of the Secret Service. Do you - does that sound like - I mean, that's now being disputed, that account by the Secret Service. So does that sound like Donald Trump you know?

COHEN: Yes. So look, I've never seen or even heard that Donald Trump has ever actually been in a physical altercation. And I'm not talking about as an adult, even as a kid. So the fact that he went to some - you can rest assured that while this was going on, if he really wanted to go to the Capitol, he would be this irate, there's no doubt about that. Does that mean that he would lunge at a Secret Service agent or he would go to grab the steering wheel? I'm not sure. But what that is - that's double hearsay. She heard it from somebody else who had heard it. Again, that's not going to be the nail in the coffin that we are all looking for in order to see Donald Trump walk with his hands right behind his back in his cotton candy flapping in the wind. That's not what you're going to see.

[15:10:00]

But, again, it - what - the bad part about that testimony is what it does is it gives Donald and, again, I know the playbook better than anyone because I was involved in writing it. They're going to use that testimony, especially if it's disproven to attempt to disprove every single statement that Cassidy made and that's a shame, but they will use that as a means to discredit her.

CAMEROTA: One of the things that we heard during that testimony - of that - during that hearing, I should say, is Congresswoman Liz Cheney talking about the intimidation that some witnesses have been subjected to. She said things that basically they get phone calls that say things like, as long as I continue to be a team player, they know I'm on the right team. I'm doing the right thing. And I would want to stay in the good graces of Trump world. And they were reminded witnesses a couple of times that Trump does read transcripts, I feel like you might know a thing or two about those tactics.

COHEN: Yes. First and foremost, let me say he does not read the transcript to somebody read it and then give him the bullet points to it. But I received the identical type of communications, those were by Bob Costello directly after the raid on my home, hotel, law office and safety deposit box where they would say our friend loves you, stay loyal, stay the course, he's got your back, you are absolutely regarded.

And these are all plays that he had learned early on in his life from people like Roy Cohn. It is a mob style scenario, where you want to make sure that these folks stay in your orbit. And if in fact that you step out of the orbit, understand that there are people there that are going to potentially do some pretty bad things to you.

Now, what Donald will say is, I don't know who these people are that they're doing - I didn't tell anybody to do it. And while that may be true, he also didn't individually tell anyone to specifically raid the Capitol. But he said it in a way that people take it as that. And you have a lot of people out there - look, I received more hate mail, more hate emails, phone calls and so on than you could possibly imagine. Some of the most vile things that you could say to another human being from my religion to my children, to my life to my wife - I mean, my family, they are just vile things that are said by people who think that they're doing some type of a service to Donald, when in fact, it's her life, it's my life, it's anybody's life who steps forward and talks truth to power.

You put yourself into that into that spot and a lot of the actions that came with me, I'm sorry to say I'm sure she's going to experience the same and he wants it that way.

CAMEROTA: Michael Cohen, great to get your perspective on all of this. Thanks so much for taking the time.

COHEN: Good to see you, Alisyn. Thank you. Happy Fourth.

CAMEROTA: You too.

BLACKWELL: Today, President Biden pledged executive action to combat climate change after the Supreme Court's decision to limit the EPA's ability to regulate carbon emissions.

CAMEROTA: The President called it another devastating decision that will take our country backwards. CNN's Rene Marsh joins us now. So Rene, what does this decision mean for the environment?

RENE MARSH, CNN GOVERNMENT REGULATION CORRESPONDENT: Well, Alisyn and Victor want to start with one new nugget, the head of the EPA just put out a statement calling the ruling quote disappointing, but vowing that the agency remains committed to using the full scope of EPA's authorities to protect communities and reduce pollution that is driving climate change.

So despite this ruling coming down, the agency clearly saying that they're going to continue to look for ways to regulate emissions from these power plants. Now, the Supreme Court ruling, of course, today is in favor of coal power plants. It is a win for coal producing states and a blow to Biden's climate agenda and it will make reaching his climate goal of cutting greenhouse gases by 50 percent by the end of the decade, a bit more difficult.

Now, the power plants are the second largest emitter of greenhouse gases and the emissions from these power plants we know are warming the planet, they're causing climate change. But today, the Supreme Court curbed one of EPA is most effective tools to drastically curbing these emissions. And what they're saying is, look, this authority belongs to Congress.

But we all know here, Victor and Alisyn, that the reality is that Congress has not shown this political consensus to act aggressively when it comes to climate change. Biden's climate legislation has been stalled for quite some time. So by default, today's ruling means less regulation for the second largest source of planet warming gases and it comes at a time where we're all seeing climate change right before our eyes.

[15:15:06]

And Justice Kagan directly address the climate crisis in her dissent saying, "The Court appoints itself - instead of Congress or the expert agency - the decision-maker on climate policy." And she goes on to say I cannot think of many things more frightening. Roberts on the other side speaking for conservatives saying, "But it is not plausible that Congress gave EPA the authority to adopt on its own such a regulatory scheme in Section 111(d). A decision of such magnitude and consequence rests with Congress itself, or an agency acting pursuant to a clear delegation from the representative body.

So those are the two sides there, but clearly happening at a time where climate change, we are feeling the impacts in everyday life. Back to you, guys.

BLACKWELL: Rene Marsh, thank you.

Let's go down to the other Supreme Court decision handed down today. The Court siding with the Biden administration, allowing the president to end the Trump era remain in Mexico policy.

CAMEROTA: CNN's Priscilla Alvarez is in Hidalgo, Texas with more. So Priscilla, more than 5,000 migrants have been returned to Mexico under that program since it was restarted last December. So now what happens?

PRISCILLA ALVAREZ, CNN POLITICS REPORTER: Well, it's not immediately clear just how quickly this decision will take effect because there are still additional legal steps that have to happen. But it is still a major victory for the Biden administration, which tried two times last year to end this program. It is - they called it inhumane and said that it came at a steep human cost.

Now, to remind viewers, this is a policy that required non-Mexican migrants to stay in Mexico for the duration of their immigration proceedings in the United States. This was an unprecedented move. It was one that former President Donald Trump took in January of 2019. For years prior to that migrants were allowed to be released into the U.S. or detained while they went through those immigration court proceedings.

Over the course of this policy, which again began in January of 2019, over 68,000 Migrants have been put in this program. And as you mentioned when it was - when the administration was forced to restart it last December, another 5,000 were put under this policy. So we're still awaiting next steps from the administration from today's ruling, but it is a victory and one that immigration advocates and attorneys are celebrating. Victor and Alisyn?

CAMEROTA: Priscilla Alvarez, thank you.

So President Biden is again blaming Russia, Russia, Russia for high gas prices back home.

BLACKWELL: And a new poll shows that the majority of Americans believe the country is heading in the wrong direction, the economy is a driving factor. I'll speak to the White House about that.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:22:23]

CAMEROTA: In his final remarks at the NATO summit this morning, President Biden said he would support a carve out to the Senate filibuster in order to codify abortion rights. BLACKWELL: He also delivered his unwavering support for Ukraine. He said the U.S. will continue to support the country for as long as it takes. CNN's Phil Mattingly is in Madrid. Phil, the President suggested that the U.S. will continue to support Ukraine even as there is this economic price back in the U.S.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Victor. He was as blunt as he was unequivocal when asked how long Americans would have to pay a premium on gas because of the war, he said, as you noted, as long as it takes. It really underscores - it's as clear window as you're going to get into the stakes, at least how President Biden views this moment, this kind of existential threat of what's happening in Ukraine at this moment but it comes with very real political pain. Political pain President Biden warned about before the invasion even occurred.

And keep in mind, the administration has deployed an array of efforts to try and have some impact on gas prices. But in a global market that is extraordinarily complicated and the President made clear who the culprit is, take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The bottom line is, ultimately, the reason why gas prices are up is because of Russia, Russia, Russia, Russia ...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: Now, guys, look, there are several reasons why inflation has been high over the course of the last year or so. But when it comes to energy, when it comes to gas, in particular, the President has ground to stand on there. Some analysts saying between a $20 and $30 per barrel premium because of the war in Russia. And you just need to look at data released by the Commerce Department this morning, even as there was some moderation and a key metric that the Federal Reserve really relies on in terms of inflation, headline inflation data was almost half based on energy prices and food prices really being driven by what's happening in Ukraine.

The biggest concern right now and why I think you saw the President gives such a blunt statement, the concern that in Europe, the pain is even more acute. The alliance that has stuck together been so unified over the course of the last four or five months could start to show fractures because of the political dynamics here, the President making clear he is going to try and stand in the way of any fractures as the U.S. and the West continue to support Ukraine, guys.

CAMEROTA: Phil Mattingly, thank you.

BLACKWELL: Thank you, Phil.

All right. Joining us now is Brian Deese. He's the director of the National Economic Council. Brian, good to have you back.

BRIAN DEESE, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL ECONOMIC COUNCIL: Great to be here.

BLACKWELL: Let's start here with the President on support for Ukraine and the cost for Americans. Let's watch.

[15:25:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How long is it fair to expect American drivers and drivers around the world to pay that premium for this war?

BIDEN: As long as it takes. Russia cannot, in fact, defeat Ukraine and move beyond Ukraine.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: The military analyst, the Director of National Intelligence, they say that this could be a long war measured in years and I think everybody understands why this is happening. But is it sustainable? What do you say to those families who say, listen, we can afford to pay for 85 a gallon for months, if not years. This is just not sustainable?

DEESE: Well, what's heard from the President today was a clear articulation of the stakes. This is about the future of the liberal world order and we have to stand firm. But at the same time, what I'd say to that family and to Americans across the country is you have a president administration that is going to do everything in its power, to blunt the those price increases and bring those prices down.

Good news, over the last two weeks, we've seen the price of gas, the pump come down about 20 cents, but still unacceptably high. That's why the President before he was at NATO in the G7 earlier this week was working to bring the G7 allies together around exploring something around a price cap to cap the price that can be paid for Russian oil, which will actually target the pain more directly on Vladimir Putin and not on the rest of the world. It's why you have the President calling for here at home, a temporary gas tax holiday not only at the federal level, but for states to follow the lead and take equivalent actions as well.

And it's why we are engaged with the industry encouraging them to increase supply, increase supply of oil right now and also increase that refinery capacity that we know those companies took offline during the pandemic. We need to get more of that online so that we get more gas into the system.

All of these steps, none of them is a silver bullet alone. But you've got an administration that's working on every angle we can to try to keep this price reduction that we're seeing going.

BLACKWELL: For all that the White House is doing, the President is doing to bring down prices, you know the numbers are from the latest poll. This is from the AP-NORC poll that shows that 85 percent of U.S. adults say the country is on the wrong track, 85 percent. That's up from 68 percent in March, 28 percent of Americans approve of the President's job performance specifically on the economy.

You have made it clear that the President gets it. But it appears that increasingly, the American people do not approve of what this White House is doing. What's your reaction to the assessment of the job the President is doing?

DEESE: Look, these are uncertain times from when prices are high. People are understandably frustrated when they're pulling up at the gas pump and that is - that's understandable. And at the same time, it is our job and it's the President's firm conviction that what he can do as president is to take every responsible action that he has.

And we have - and also remind the American people that even as we go through this challenging period, even whilst we move through this transition, we also have made historic economic progress and that's not to suggest that people shouldn't feel the anxiety that they feel. Of course, they do.

But what it does mean is that the United States is uniquely well- positioned to tackle these problems from a position of relative strength. The president in Europe this week, the United States is better and stronger position than virtually any other country to take these challenges head on, to take these price increases head on and to transition to a more stable and steady period of growth and that's exactly what the President's going to keep doing.

BLACKWELL: You call it a transition. The question is transition to what, let's listen to the Fed Chairman here on the topic of if the pandemic has altered this economy forever.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEROME POWELL, FEDERAL RESERVE CHAIRMAN: The economy is being driven by very different forces. And we know that. What we don't know is whether we'll be going back to something that looks more like - or a little bit like what we had before. We suspect that it'll be kind of a blend.

BLACKWELL: Is 2 percent inflation possible? What's your reaction to what you heard there from Jerome Powell?

DEESE: Well, look, of course, there's uncertainties, but I think it's the right question to ask whether it should be our goal to just return to the economy pre pandemic. The President has a pretty clear view on that question, which is that we need to do better than that. And that the economy pre-pandemic was not working for a lot of middle class families and that having a period of extended low growth, low wage growth, yes, low interest rates, but it was a low growth equilibrium that was increasing in equality and increasingly putting middle class families at a negative disadvantage.

So what we need to do is build on all of the strengths that we have. Historic progress in the labor market, 3.6 percent unemployment rate jobs are plentiful, build on those strengths to get to a new, stronger, better equilibrium where, yes, we bring price increases down (inaudible) ...

BLACKWELL: Is 2 percent possible? Because that has been the goal.

[15:30:00]