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Secret Service Sources Now Corroborating Cassidy Hutchinson's Testimony; Liz Cheney Defends January 6 Committee Work; Trump World Attempting to Influence January 6 Testimony?; Air Travel Delays; Biden Meets With Governors on Protecting Abortion Rights. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired July 01, 2022 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:47]

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: Hello. I'm Victor Blackwell. Welcome to CNN NEWSROOM.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: And I'm Alisyn Camerota.

If you're traveling for the holiday weekend, buckle your seat belt. More Americans are hitting the roads and airports than at any point since the pandemic began two-plus years ago. And airlines are seeing a new round of trouble. More than 300 flights have been canceled today, and more than 2,000 are delayed.

Pilots are protesting around the country. They say they're overworked and understaffed.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JASON AMBROSI, DELTA PILOT: It's been extremely frustrating. Our pilots continuously step up day in and day out to get our passengers safely to their destinations. And the cumulative effects of these fatiguing schedules is adding up.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: And despite the high gas prices, it will also be a busy weekend on the roads.

AAA predicts an all-time record; 42 million Americans will hit the road, driving 50 miles or more for Independence Day. Gas prices, they are dropping slightly, but they're still high, the average price per gallon of gas now at $4.84.

CNN's Pete Muntean at the Reagan National Airport, and Leyla Santiago is at a gas station in Miami.

Pete, you're up first.

Airlines, they had been bracing for this. How are things shaping up so far?

PETE MUNTEAN, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: This is the biggest test yet for airlines since they started to recover from the depths of the pandemic, Victor.

These cancellations are only going up and up. And they will throughout the weekend. We know that airlines got a lot smaller over the pandemic. That, combined with storms on the horizon, that causes the deck of cards really to come tumbling down. Look at the numbers so far, according to FlightAware.

We just crossed the 300-cancellation mark nationwide. We saw more than 400 cancellations nationwide just yesterday. The last two weekends were really bad, 2,200 cancellations nationwide last weekend, 3,200 cancellations nationwide during the Juneteenth and Father's Day weekend.

Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg has given this mandate to airlines. He says he will be watching them this weekend to make sure that they shape up and perform, even though some airlines put the blame back on the federal government, saying they are responsible in part for some of these delays and cancellations because of air traffic control issues.

And I asked Buttigieg about that. And here's what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MUNTEAN: So who is really to blame when it comes to these massive cancellations?

PETE BUTTIGIEG (D), FORMER MAYOR OF SOUTH BEND, INDIANA: Well, let's be very clear. The majority of delays and the majority of cancellations have not been caused by air traffic control staffing issues.

The bottom line here is that the airlines that are selling these tickets need to have the crews and the staff to back up those sales.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MUNTEAN: Delta Air Lines has been leading the pack of major airlines when it comes to these huge cancellations.

In fact, it's bracing for even more cancellations as the weekend goes on. It just issued a travel waiver to all of its passengers systemwide, allowing them to change their flights completely free of charge now through July 4.

Delta Air Lines CEO Ed Bastian sent an e-mail to all Delta customers last night, saying this environment is like nothing we have ever seen -- Victor, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: OK.

Leyla, tell us what you're seeing with drivers and gas prices.

LEYLA SANTIAGO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, some of them are actually impacted by what Pete just talked about, folks that do not want to deal with the headaches from the airports. And so instead they're hitting the road.

We are expecting nearly 48 million people, as Victor mentioned, to drive more than 50 miles for the holiday weekend. That's an increase from last year. It's actually record-breaking, according to AAA. But, still, even though we're seeing more people out, that doesn't mean they're worried or frowning upon or rolling their eyes, as we saw plenty of times today, any time you mentioned gas prices.

Right now, on average, we're looking at $4.84. That is a drop from yesterday, but perspective. Let's take it further than yesterday, $4.84 today, last month, $4.67, and then just a year ago $3.12. So this is getting really pricey. Listen to one gentleman who I talked to.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ITAMAR ABERGEL, TRAVELER: We thought a lot about where to go, What the distance, like, maybe share a big car.

[14:05:00]

We had to -- thought on different solutions. I feel like I need to be more -- to calculate my actions more, because things are getting, like, very frustrating. So it's not easy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANTIAGO: He is not alone.

We heard that quite a bit. And Itamar is one example of someone who says, look, I'm still going to go have a grill-out at the at the park. I'm just not going to be going as far because of those gas prices.

And I should mention, if you ask AAA what is the busiest time, when do you think those roads will be most congested, we're about to come up on that right now. They said yesterday was pretty bad. And as folks are leaving work on Friday, which we're coming up on that soon, you should expect some pretty high volumes on the interstates.

BLACKWELL: All right. That's why I'm taking the train.

Leyla Santiago, Pete Muntean, thank you both.

CAMEROTA: OK, so, moments ago, President Biden once again blasted the Supreme Court decision to overturn Roe vs. Wade.

BLACKWELL: During a virtual meeting with nine Democratic governors, the president accused the court of being extremist and called on Congress to help.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Ultimately, Congress is going to have to act to codify the -- Roe into federal law.

And as I said yesterday, the filibuster should not stand in the way of us being able to do that.

This is not over. It's not over.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: All right, CNN's Jeremy Diamond is live at the White House.

Jeremy, what else did the president say?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, listen, as the president was talking about the need for Congress to ratify -- to codify Roe v. Wade into law, he was also talking about his support that he announced earlier this week for a carve-out to the filibuster in order to pass that with just 50 votes in the Senate without needing those 60 votes, a right to abortion, a right to privacy.

But the president also acknowledging that he will need two more votes, after both Senators Kyrsten Sinema and Joe Manchin, both Democrats, reaffirmed that they are opposed to any kind of carve-outs to the filibuster. And so that takes the issue over to November, when the president is hoping that he can try and pick up that -- those two Senate seats.

The president also making clear that, if the elections in November go in a different direction, with Republicans taking control of the House and the Senate, the president warning of potential action from them. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: I think it's going to be a big deal if we get people out to vote, because here's what's going to happen, I predict.

If we don't, if we don't take the -- keep the Senate, increase it in the House, we're going to be in a situation where the Republicans are going to pass a nationwide prohibition consistent with what the Supreme Court ruled.

And so there's a lot at stake here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DIAMOND: And the president making those comments as he was sitting down virtually with nine Democratic governors, all of whom are taking actions right now to protect abortion rights in their states and also to try and help facilitate in some cases women who are coming from states where it is now illegal to get an abortion to be able to go there.

The president himself also reiterating that the federal government will do everything he can to protect those women's rights to travel to other states where they can access abortion services. He also talked about continuing efforts by the federal government to protect access to medication abortion, something that we heard the health and human services secretary, Xavier Becerra, talk about earlier this week. What we didn't hear from the president, though, was any kind of new

actions, despite the fact that two days ago the president suggested there would be announcements during this event today. We did not have any new policy announcements from the president today. But here he is sitting down with these governors trying to show Americans, perhaps distraught Americans, that he is trying to do something, trying to take action on this front -- Alisyn, Victor.

BLACKWELL: Jeremy Diamond at the White House.

Jeremy, thank you very much.

We're just getting this in. The Ohio Supreme Court has denied an emergency request to block a six-week abortion ban in that state.

CAMEROTA: And that means that women there will be unable to get an abortion after six weeks, which, as you know, is often before they even know they're pregnant.

CNN's Polo Sandoval is following this story.

So, Polo, Ohio is obviously just one of the states. Every state seems to have been thrust into some chaos here, including Florida. What's happening there?

POLO SANDOVAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And yet too, Victor and Alisyn, you have abortion rights supporters in a place like Florida that aren't necessarily celebrating right now.

And here's why. The order that -- or at least a ruling from the judge yesterday basically set the stage for a very complicated legal back- and-forth. And caught in the middle are not just women in Florida, but perhaps in surrounding states that may turn to Florida for an abortion.

You remember, it was yesterday that a judge there in Florida actually issued this oral ruling basically deciding that the Ron DeSantis law that was signed back in April was unconstitutional, which basically made abortions illegal, not after 24 weeks, but 15. The thing is, it was an oral argument and -- or oral ruling.

So even the judge said it does not become official until it is in writing. And that, according to several sources, may not happen until next week. And that is why that law signed by Governor DeSantis basically kicked in earlier today.

[14:10:00]

Here's where it gets a bit complicated. As soon as that happens, as soon as yesterday's ruling becomes official, Governor DeSantis has made it very clear that he plans to appeal that, which would take us right back to where we are today.

I want you to hear directly from what the governor plans to do as soon as that ruling from yesterday becomes official.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. RON DESANTIS (R-FL): These are unborn babies that have heartbeat, they can feel pain, they can suck their thumb. And to say that the state Constitution mandates things like dismemberment abortions, I just don't think that's the proper interpretation.

(APPLAUSE)

DESANTIS: And so we will go -- we will appeal.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANDOVAL: The ACLU, which is essentially defending some of these abortion providers in Florida, say that it plans to submit an appeal of its own.

But, basically, what we are preparing to see next week is a stay of the stay, which would take us back to where we are today. And that's the big conversation that's happening right now in the Sunshine State.

And just for some important perspective here, Florida is still one of the most permissible states -- at least it was up until today -- for women to actually get abortion. In terms of the CDC numbers from 2019, roughly 72,000 abortions were reported in the state of Florida.

So caught in the middle right now are those women that are left themselves asking, is it 15 weeks or 24 weeks?

BLACKWELL: Yes.

SANDOVAL: We're going to have to find out exactly what happens next week. But, as of today, again, that law that was signed by DeSantis in April kicked in, making it illegal after 15 weeks, with exceptions.

BLACKWELL: Confusion in lots of states across the country.

We have talked about Florida, Ohio. Tell me about Kentucky and Texas

SANDOVAL: Yes, Kentucky and Texas, two of those states where we have actually seen those stays put in place, at least temporarily.

Texas, for example, that temporary restraining order is only in place until the 12th of July. So, essentially, what you're seeing here is some Texas clinics being able allowed to carry out some of these procedures, but it's still going to be very complicated.

I had an opportunity to speak to a district attorney in Texas earlier this week that says that when this TRO expires, they're going to be left in a very difficult position. One in particular says that he's going to have to decide, what can he morally do and what can he legally do? What will he have to -- what kind of cases will he have to accept?

But, ultimately, he said, it's going to be his discretion. And I think that's what you're going to start to see among some of those district attorneys, not only in Texas, but in Kentucky as well and other states, as you saw on that map, where there's a lot of confusion about where things will stand in the coming weeks or days.

CAMEROTA: Yes, it's just a patchwork approach at this point.

SANDOVAL: Yes.

CAMEROTA: Polo Sandoval, thank you very much.

SANDOVAL: Thanks, guys.

BLACKWELL: Serious questions about whether former President Trump is influencing testimony in the January 6 probe.

"The New York Times" reports that those in Trump's orbit are covering the legal fees of more than a dozen witnesses.

CAMEROTA: And Congresswoman Liz Cheney is defending her work on that committee, as she battles for her political future in Wyoming.

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[14:17:09]

CAMEROTA: Republican Congresswoman Liz Cheney is in the national spotlight for her leadership on the January 6 investigation.

She's also up for reelection in Wyoming. She faced four GOP challengers in a debate last night, including one backed by Donald Trump, and gave a full-throated defense of her work on the committee and her criticism of Trump.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): We are in fact a nation of laws. And we are a nation of laws only if we defend our constitutional republic.

And as I made clear last night, we have to put our oath to the Constitution above party. We are now embracing a cult of personality. And I won't -- I won't be part of that, and I will always stand for my oath and stand for the truth.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: CNN's congressional correspondent, Ryan Nobles, joins us now.

Ryan, let's talk about Congresswoman Cheney in a moment. But, first, let's start with the new reporting that you have for related to Cassidy Hutchinson's testimony. What do you know?

RYAN NOBLES, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right, Victor and Alisyn.

Of course, there has been somewhat of a dispute about what Cassidy Hutchinson testified to in the hearing on Tuesday, specifically that incident that took place in the presidential limo on January 6, where Hutchinson said that she was told a story from Tony Ornato, who was the deputy chief of staff at that time and a former Secret Service agent -- he's now a Secret Service agent again -- about the former president being irate and angry and demanding to go to the Capitol and that, at one point, he lunged toward the steering wheel and in the direction of Bobby Engel, who was the detail leader of the Secret Service detail at that time.

Now, the Secret Service has pushed back on that, a spokesperson saying that they do not agree with Hutchinson's recollection of what occurred at that time, and that they're ready to allow Tony Ornato and Bobby Engel to come before the committee to testify under oath about their experience.

Well, the new reporting that we're getting -- and this comes from our Noah Gray, who's spoken to two different sources who are longtime employees of Secret Service -- who said that a version of this story has been passed around through the Secret Service for some time after the incident took place in the days after what happened on January 6, as early as February, and then many months after.

And these two different sources both heard versions of the stories. Their versions of the stories do slightly differ.

The first source telling us that there were many people talking about the former president being very angry, lashing out at the individuals in the car, and demanding to go to the Capitol on that day, and then even that he lunged in the direction of the front seat. Now, they do not confirm what Cassidy Hutchinson had said about the steering wheel or any type of physical altercation that took place on that day.

Hutchinson never accused the former president of any sort of physical altercation. But, to be clear, this version of the story also does not include that.

[14:20:02]

Now, a second source also confirms that other important point about the president being angry, demanding to go to the Capitol. And what's important about this second source is that the second source heard this from a variety of people, but specifically from the driver of the presidential limousine at that same time.

Now, that individual has not been identified. It is unclear whether or not they have given their version of the events to anyone that is involved in this investigation.

So, this is important, because there have been differing accounts as to exactly what happened inside the car, but the consistent, prevailing narrative that seems to be agreed upon by everyone involved, Victor and Alisyn, is that, A, the president was angry, and, B, he was demanding to go to the Capitol.

That has been what the committee has said has been the most important part of this conversation from the very beginning. And so now we have from two different sources connected to the Secret Service that this was an account that was being shared within the agency in the days and weeks after January 6 -- Victor and Alisyn. CAMEROTA: OK. That's interesting. Ryan, thank you for all of that new reporting.

Stand by, if you would, because we have some legal questions about it.

CNN senior legal analyst Elie Honig joins us now. He's a former assistant U.S. attorney.

Elie, it's very interesting, this story. It's colorful hearing how angry the former president was. It's not that far of a stretch. We already had heard many different reports of his temper during his time in the White House, but, legally speaking, this wasn't the bombshell.

I mean, what he had done in the limo, the Beast, so-called, wasn't the bombshell. It was that he knew that his bloodthirsty supporters had weapons, and he sent them to the Capitol. That was sort of the bombshell from Cassidy Hutchinson.

But about this, now that the Secret Service says that too heard this version of events, what do you make of it?

ELIE HONIG, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: So, first things first, Alisyn.

You're exactly right. The two biggest stories are, one, Donald Trump knew that that crowd was armed. I have not seen anything to cast doubt on Cassidy Hutchinson's testimony about that, and, two, that Donald Trump really badly wanted to go down to the Capitol. That's not in dispute either.

You know who's confirmed that? At least two other staffers we saw testimony from. NSC documents confirm that. And Donald Trump himself has said publicly, although he's changed his story several times, but he has said publicly that he wanted to go to the Capitol. None of that is in dispute.

We're in this credibility battle really between Cassidy Hutchinson and Tony Ornato about whether the president lunged at the steering wheel. Either Cassidy Hutchinson made this up out of whole cloth -- and, remember, she didn't say, I saw it. She said, Tony Ornato told me this story. So either she just fabricated that, or Tony Ornato did tell her that story, and now he's lying.

And I think the new reporting from Ryan mitigates pretty strongly in Cassidy Hutchinson's favor, because now we know that this story is out there, that people are telling this story, and it's being passed from person to person. So, to me, it makes it even more likely that Cassidy Hutchinson is correct on that one detail about the steering wheel lunge.

BLACKWELL: Yes, let me read just a line here.

This is a quote from one of the sources connected to the Secret Service. It says -- quote -- "He had sort of lunged forward. It was unclear from the conversations I had that he actually made physical contact, but he might have. I don't know. Nobody said Trump assaulted him. They said he tried to lunch over the seat. For what reason, nobody had any idea."

That from one of the sources.

But, Ryan, let me come back to you on Tony Ornato. And the way that Congresswoman Murphy, who's a member of the 1/6 Committee, described it is that, in his testimony, he didn't give any clear account of that, no clear memories of that period.

Are they attempting to potentially bring him back to try to nail this down? Or are they sticking comfortably with Cassidy Hutchinson's account of it?

NOBLES: What the committee needs in terms of its investigation to draw the conclusions that they need to draw.

And I think the point that we keep raising over and over again is whether or not the president lunged at the steering wheel is not really that important to the specificity of their investigation. Now, it lends itself to a certain degree of Cassidy Hutchinson's credibility, but the committee has made it very clear that they trust her, that they believe that she's telling the truth on a whole host of issues, and that they have that corroborated from other areas.

Now, what the committee may be willing to do -- and it seems clear that they have said they will take any information from anyone that can provide it -- is bring Tony Ornato and Bobby Engel back in under oath and testify again. We know that Tony Ornato has testified to them already on two different occasions.

They view his testimony as being somewhat murky, according to what we heard from Congresswoman Murphy and others. So the question is, do they bring them in again? Because the Secret Service is offered them up? And do they ask them questions that go beyond just this very narrow, specific incident, which is not, I would say, a very important part of the investigation writ large?

But there may be many other questions that they have about what -- of the Secret Service's role in all this, and then Ornato specifically. I think, sometimes, one thing that gets lost in this conversation is that Tony Ornato was not working as a Secret Service agent during this period of time.

[14:25:12]

He was a political appointee, as the deputy chief of staff to the former President Donald Trump at that time. He has now since gone back to serving in the Secret Service, but, at that time, he was working for Donald Trump. He was loyal to Donald Trump politically. So there may be questions that they have that go far beyond just this individual incident, which Republicans really have made a big deal about, with the sole purpose of trying to destroy Hutchinson's credibility.

CAMEROTA: And then, Elie, moving forward, what -- where does this leave the DOJ? What does the DOJ do with all of this? And, again, it's hard not to think that they're following the

committee, rather than leading in front of the committee in terms of investigation.

HONIG: No, I think that's exactly right, Alisyn.

I was astonished to read that DOJ was astonished by Cassidy Hutchinson's testimony. There's no excuse for DOJ not to have gotten to Cassidy Hutchinson as a witness, many, many months ago.

But it's becoming more and more clear, first of all, that the committee is way out ahead of DOJ in terms of getting information about the inner circles of power. Forget about the 800 people who stormed the Capitol. That's important, but when we're talking about the inner circles of power, that committee is way, way ahead.

And DOJ, look, the clock matters here. We're coming up on midterms. We're coming up on the blackout period, the 60- or 90-day blackout period during which DOJ will not announce an indictment. So they need to pick up the pace. And I think the committee's made a really compelling factual presentation that has significantly upped the pressure on DOJ, not just the app, but to act quickly.

BLACKWELL: Let's bring it now CNN's law enforcement correspondent, Josh Campbell.

Josh, you had learned that some Secret Service agents, some close to the service who are willing to testify. What now is -- are you hearing about and your thoughts on this new reporting?

JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's important to keep in mind that, so far, only one person who has made this account has testified openly and under oath, and that is this former White House aide Cassidy Hutchins, but -- Hutchinson.

But after her testimony, we did hear from an official with the Secret Service saying that both Tony Ornato, was then the deputy White House chief of staff, as well as the lead detail agent who was in the vehicle, they're willing to testify. They had disputed, according to the Secret Service official, that Ms. Hutchinson was briefed that this incident occurred where Trump allegedly went toward the steering wheel and towards one of the agents.

The lead detail agent, according to this official, said that that never happened, that they're willing to testify. We're told that the Department of Homeland Security has reached out to the committee to indicate that they will make these agents ready to testify. They haven't received word back on scheduling any kind of date.

But I think what's important to remember right now is this new reporting from our colleague Noah Gray, which is providing information in Secret Service circles that appears to corroborate much of what Ms. Hutchinson said.

Now, according to one source who spoke with someone inside the vehicle on that day, Trump was very irate. And that tracks with exactly what Ms. Hutchinson had been testifying. At one point, the president had lunged -- didn't -- the source didn't know if he actually made contact with the steering wheel. But the bottom line there is, according to this source, that Trump was very angry, he wanted to go to the Capitol.

Of course, we know from Ms. Hutchinson's attorney that the president wanted to go despite knowing that some people in this crowd were armed. And it's also worth pointing out that no one so far that we have heard from has disputed that the president still wanted to go to the Capitol where these votes were being counted, knowing that this crowd was armed, both he, his staff, as well as obviously members of the security detail.

So there's still a lot that we don't know. We're trying to get those details. But this is very key, this new reporting that, within Secret Service circles, this had been discussed, again, according to our colleague Noah Gray.

One other item, his source said, is that this had been discussed within Secret Service circles going back to February of last year. Now, some of this may have been gossip, the rumor mill, obviously, agents talking about that the boss was very irate, this occurred. But that tracks exactly with what Ms. Hutchinson said that she was briefed on.

And you have to ask yourself, finally, where would she get this information, if she wasn't briefed on it from Secret Service officials? She clearly wouldn't just make it up. She wouldn't have that information. But that has been corroborated by what we're hearing through sources, that Trump was very angry, he wanted to go to the Capitol that day, despite this crowd being very angry and armed.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

And, to be clear, Cassidy Hutchinson testified that he had said, well, they're not going to hurt me. So he was confident that they weren't going to hurt him, which is why he wasn't afraid of them having weapons. But they were going to hurt somebody. They clearly...

CAMPBELL: Which raises the question, who were they going to hurt, exactly as you mentioned, yes.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

I mean, they were chanting "Hang Mike Pence." So that's one clue that we have.

But, Ryan, about the president's temper, again, we have heard that he would have these temper tantrums from time to time. And they have just given more color in some of the new CNN reporting, that he wasn't just throwing plates.

Cassidy Hutchinson had testified that he was so angry that Attorney General Bill Barr has said there was no widespread fraud in the 2020.