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Secret Service Sources Tell CNN They Heard Accounts Of An Angry Trump Demanding To Go To Capitol On 1/6; At Least 20 Killed In Russian Attack In Odessa, Ukraine; GOP Sen. Toomey: Trump's 2024 Prospects Dented By 1/6 Probe. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired July 01, 2022 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:30:00]

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: And they've given them color, in some of the new CNN reporting, that he wasn't just throwing plates.

Cassidy Hutchinson had testified that he was so angry that Attorney General Bill Barr had said there was no widespread fraud in the 2020 election.

In other words, Donald Trump had lost the election, that he threw a hamburger against the wall, and the plate and the ketchup crashed down the wall.

Now there's more reporting.

RYAN NOBLES, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right. Within this information that Noah Gray was able to cobble together by talking to these individuals who worked within the Secret Service, that it was known within the agency and within the details that protected the former president that he would often get angry to the point of throwing things.

That was not something that agents found to be surprising. So it's just another aspect of Hutchinson's testimony that is being corroborated by people that were in and around the White House at this time.

It paints the portrait of a man that was angry a lot. And if he didn't get his way and things weren't going in the direction that he was hoping, that he would lash out.

All of this is important. And I think sometimes it feels as though we're nitpicking very finite details.

But what we see playing out over the course of the reaction to Hutchinson's testimony is that there are actors that are close to the former president that are taking little snippets of what she said here and there in her testimony.

And then, to a certain extent, trying to present that as saying that everything that she said should not be believed and that her credibility has been lacking. And so that's forced reporters and journalists to go out and then fact

check it in real time to make sure that we're getting the most accurate information out there.

So whether or not Donald Trump threw a plate at a wall in a room is probably not a specific piece of evidence that's going to lead to him being indicted or provide more information about what happened on January 6th.

But if we're able to corroborate that story in some sort of specificity with Hutchinson, that lends credibility to everything else she had to say on that day.

Of which a lot of that other stuff was a lot more damning when you talk about the effort that was made to subvert the will of the American people and prevent the peaceful transfer of power.

JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT CORRESPONDENT: Can I make one more point on that as well?

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: Elie, let me come to you.

Speaking about the people close to the former president, there's, of course, the reporting that these political action committees, people close to them, were paying the attorneys for more than a dozen of the witnesses. That reporting from "The New York Times."

Cassidy Hutchinson made about $70,000 a year in her last year at the White House.

Is it problematic that they're paying? And who should be paying? These attorneys charge hundreds of dollars, if not more than a thousand an hour.

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Victor, attorneys are, indeed, expensive. In some respects, this is quite normal, both in the criminal context and non-criminal context.

So many times when I would prosecute a mafia case, a drug trafficking case, the boss would pay for or provide everyone's attorneys because that's a good way to keep people from flipping.

But there's also an innocuous version of this. Many times when a company is under investigation, the company will pay for the attorneys and employees want that because attorneys are very expensive.

How is a young person like Cassidy Hutchinson supposed to pay for it?

But the inevitable consequence is it becomes more difficult to Cooperate because now you're potentially providing information against the person who is footing the bill.

And it's not at all a coincidence that Cassidy Hutchinson, when she got out of that lawyer and got herself a different lawyer, that's when she felt free and able to come forward with the new testimony that caused the committee to call an emergency hearing. So this is very common, it's not necessarily illegal, but it really

does have a deterrent effect on people coming forward and cooperating.

CAMEROTA: Josh, did you have one last thing you want to say?

CAMPBELL: I did, yes.

It's important for our viewers to understand, as we talk about these differing accounts where you have Hutchinson testifying under oath and the Secret Service officials pushing back, it's important to point out the dynamic.

It's not just the Secret Service. This one individual, the former deputy White House chief of staff who is currently an executive with the Secret Service, he was a political appointee.

This was a very unusual arrangement. You don't see this typically in law enforcement services, a sworn federal agent who goes to the White House as a political appointee. He's very close to Donald Trump.

And it's important to point that out. If it ends up being a "he said, she said," it's not just a federal law enforcement agency countering this witness. This is a source very close to Donald Trump.

He says, according to the Secret Service, that he wants to testify to the committee, Mr. Ornato. Of course, we have to wait and see whether that actually happens and whether that will be made public.

That's important to point out. There's a political dynamic here at play as well.

[14:35:53]

BLACKWELL: All right. Again, the breaking news, CNN has spoken with two Secret Service sources who say that they've heard about the incident in the SUV after the rally on January 6th, where the president wanted to go to the capitol, from multiple agents, including the driver of that SUV where it occurred as early as February 2021.

Josh Campbell, Elie Honig, Ryan Nobles, thank you.

CAMEROTA: All right, rescue operations are under way after Russian strikes hit a residential building and a rec center in southern Ukraine. At least 20 people were killed. We go live to Ukraine.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:40:11]

BLACKWELL: Ukrainian officials say at least 20 people were killed, including two children, after Russian missiles hit a residential building and recreation centers in the Odessa region.

We're told the missiles are the same type that Russian Forces used when they hit a mall on Monday.

CAMEROTA: CNN's Scott McLean is live for us.

Scott, the Kremlin denies they're targeting civilians, but we have evidence we see with our own eyes that contradicts that.

SCOTT MCLEAN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, there's plenty of pictures, Alisyn.

This took place in a village of Kharkiv, about 50 miles or so outside of Odessa. These are the missiles that were used in the mall attack earlier this week.

What's significant is these are older types of missiles, not quite as accurate as their modern counterparts. Local officials say that there were no military targets in that area.

So what was the actual target, were these civilian sites the target? We simply don't know at this stage of the game.

Local officials on the ground say, at last word, they are looking for survivors. But frankly, they don't expect to find any.

This is really part of a pattern for the Ukrainians. Of course, the Russians have hit hospitals, they have hit schools, and it seems like they hit an apartment block every day or close to that, at least.

In response, the Ukrainian foreign minister tweeted earlier today saying, "Terrorist state Russia continues its war against civilians. I urge partners to provide Ukraine with modern missile defense system as soon as possible."

Now, the Russians obviously tell a very different story. The Kremlin spokesperson said earlier today, "I would like to remind you once again of the words of the president of Russia, that the Russian armed forces do not target civilian infrastructure during the special military operation."

It was Vladimir Putin who said earlier this week that the Russians don't target civilian infrastructure, and they don't have to, because they have the technology, they have the intelligence to know exactly what they're aiming at and to hit it with precision.

To your point, Alisyn, there's plenty of evidence that contradicts that.

The hope for the Ukrainians at this stage of the game is that, while there's not that much they can do with these missile strikes, they're hoping at least the shelling in the Odessa region will let up.

Because they've retaken that very key outcropping of land in the Black Sea called Snake Island, which is in direct proximity to Odessa, a part of the country that the Russians simply have not been able to reach by land -- Victor, Alisyn?

CAMEROTA: OK, Scott McLean, great to get that update from you from the region. BLACKWELL: An outgoing GOP Senator warns the January 6th committee and

hearings may hurt Trump's 2024 presidential chances. We'll talk about that.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:47:36]

BLACKWELL: CNN has confirmed some of the details we heard this week from former White House aide, Cassidy Hutchinson. According to two Secret Service sources, then-President Donald Trump did angrily demand to go to the capitol on January 6th, 2021, and he berated his protective detail when he did not get his way.

CAMEROTA: Meanwhile, a growing number of Republicans are voicing concern about Trump's presidential prospects for 2024.

Retiring Republican Senator Pat Toomey says the party can do better from Trump.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. PAT TOOMEY (R-PA): I think he disqualified himself from running for office, especially with his post-election behavior, especially leading right up to January 6th.

I think the revelations from this committee make his path to even the Republican nomination much more tenuous. Never say never.

And if he decides whether to throw his hat in the ring, but I think we'll have a stronger candidate.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Let's bring in Laura Barron-Lopez, a White House correspondent for "PBS News Hour" and a CNN political analyst. And Doug Heye is a Republican strategist and a former RNC communications director.

Great to see both of you.

Doug, let me start with you.

Is there any way to quantify this? How many Republicans do you think are either publicly or behind the scenes privately saying that very thing, enough is enough with Trump, we can do better as a party?

DOUG HEYE, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: We can't quantify it yet. But it's the behind the scenes that's operative. And we're seeing that with obviously Senator Toomey who said it publicly. More and more Republicans privately have been saying this for a while.

But, also, with the number of Republican donors, really the top finance people who work with the RNC over the past years, in the Trump years and before, they're starting to say, you know what, I've had a little too much of the drama. And it's not about ketchup on a wall. It's about going to the capitol,

knowing that they were armed, everything we've seen over the hearings. They just want to inch away from Donald Trump bit by bit.

BLACKWELL: Laura, we've heard privately from Republicans for years, who have not been supportive of or found some of the president's decisions distasteful.

If they're not stepping up and that likely won't happen before the midterm, why should there be confidence in what Toomey is saying, that people are going to walk away if they're not coming out publicly to talk about the president?

LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes, I mean, just to your point, Victor, privately, for years, all of us, a lot of reporters have heard from Republicans that they aren't on board, that they don't support Trump's tactics.

[14:50:07]

That they don't support a number of policies that he's pursued, pursued, and his election denials. But, publicly, you do not see that exodus at all.

And, in fact, with the number of candidates running across the country, a lot of those candidates are subscribing to Trump's election denialism and a number of them have won their primaries and they have said that they think that 2020 was a rigged election, which we know is a lie.

As well as they seem to indicate that they would be going along with future attempts in terms of trying to overturn election results in the future. So that's something that we're increasingly seeing among candidates.

And it's been a mixed bag in terms of wins and losses for Trump. Yes, people who stood up to him, like Raffensperger, the secretary of state in Georgia, won their primary.

But across the board, there have been a number of Trump election deniers who have continued to win in the Republican primary.

CAMEROTA: And, Doug, somehow all of this is not to resounding to President Biden's benefits. There's this feeling among Democrats that he has basically been following and not leading.

But how is he supposed to lead before that, before the decision came down?

HEYE: When you have a 50/50 Senate and a small majority in the House of Representatives, you're not going to get everything you want on your Christmas tree list.

When I worked in House leadership, we had the House. We didn't have the White House and the Senate. And expectations were that we could make Obama and Harry Reid do what we wanted. That's not the reality. But the political reality for Biden is his voters are going into

November right now with a real lack of enthusiasm. And his party going into 2024, should he decide to run, is not enthusiastic about him now.

It is a very real political problem for him right now.

BLACKWELL: Laura, the president was asked in Madrid if he was the right person to lead this Democratic energy. This is what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm the only president they got. And I feel extremely strongly that I'm going to do everything in my power which I legally can do in terms of executive orders as well as push the Congress and the public.

If the polling data is correct and you think this decision by the court was an outrage or a significant mistake, vote. Show up and vote. Vote in the off year, and vote, vote, vote.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: Now, there were eight weeks between the draft of the decision leak and then the publishing of it. If there were executive orders maybe that could have been written and put in a drawer at some point.

How is the White House responding to this pressure from the party?

BARRON-LOPEZ: Victor, even before the draft leak, I spoke to the White House and they said that they had been preparing for the fall of roe v. Wade since -- for a year.

And so when I spoke to some legal experts who were advising the White House, they said that they were surprised that on the day that the decision came down that there weren't executive actions that the White House had lined up.

The president's gender policy counsel has been working on this, they said, for a year.

Now, the White House is essentially saying that Biden is still the best equipped to carry this message forward despite his evolution on the issue itself. He used to be against Roe and, now he is for it.

But inside the White House, you know, there's frustration that they feel as though a number of Democrats are increasingly trying to say that Biden is not the most effective messenger anymore.

And that, ultimately, you know, there are questions being consistently raised about whether or not he is going to run in 2024, even though he and Vice President Harris have said that their intention is to run as a ticket together.

You know, also a lot of focus groups that I've watched in the recent weeks, you really hear from Democratic voters and left-leaning Independents frustration with the president and the fact that they feel as though he isn't fighting fire with fire with Republicans.

And so we're going to see a lot of Democrats continue to push the White House, continue to push President Biden.

Because they think that even if legal challenges come to the potential executive actions he could pursue, they want him to simply just be creative about those executive actions and do that instead of worry about the legal ramifications.

BLACKWELL: Last summer, when the White House said that they did not have the authority to extend the eviction moratorium, they did it anyway through executive order and then the courts shut that down, but they did it anyway because there was that imperative that they felt.

Laura Barron-Lopez and Doug Heye, thank you.

[14:55:02]

CAMEROTA: Heartbroken families in Uvalde are demanding action from the mayor. And they want to know why the former police chief, who is also a city counselor, still has his job.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VELMA LISA DURAN, SISTER OF TEACHER KILLED IN SCHOOL SHOOTING: Nobody is giving us any answers. It's been over a month. You have no idea how frustrating this is. No idea. And we're sitting here just listening to empty words.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLACKWELL: First, it was Big Bird. Now it's Elmo. Senator Ted Cruz just cannot help himself. The Texas Republican is upset with Elmo who's what, 3, 5 years old.

CAMEROTA: Ageless.

BLACKWELL: OK. Three and a half. Our executive producer knows the exact age.

CAMEROTA: Yes. Three and a half.

[14:59:51]

BLACKWELL: This is an ad of the Muppet promoting COVID-19 vaccines for kids. And proceeded to tweet, "Elmo aggressively advocates for vaccinating young kids without scientific evidence."

CAMEROTA: By the way, Elmo is not a scientist. At least as far as I know.

(CROSSTALK)

CAMEROTA: He's 3 and a half. And he was encouraging kids not to be scared about getting vaccines.