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Secret Service Sources Tell CNN They Heard Account Of An Angry Trump Demanding To Go To The Capitol On January 6th; Holiday Travelers Face Airline Delays, Steep Gas Prices; Stormy Weather Expected Across U.S. For Holiday Weekend. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired July 01, 2022 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: Yes. I mean, by the way, Elmo is not a scientist. I mean, as far as I know.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: He's three and a half.

CAMEROTA: He's three and a half and he was encouraging kids not to be scared about getting their vaccines. Of course, this is not the first time that Sen. Cruz has gone after a Sesame Street character. In November, the Senator took on Big Bird over also advocating for COVID vaccines. Cruz called it government propaganda.

I mean, I don't know what he has against Muppets. I guess he just thinks that this is sort of an easy culture war, but it does and I don't mean to make this suddenly serious, but it does beg the question, what has Sen. Cruz done to keep kids safe in the State of Texas lately? What has he done?

BLACKWELL: Also what is he watching that you are up to date on - I didn't even know there was a clinic on Sesame Street.

CAMEROTA: I don't either. Thank you.

BLACKWELL: But I get updates from Sen. Cruz.

CAMEROTA: There you have it.

It's the top of the hour on CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Alisyn Camerota.

BLACKWELL: I'm Victor Blackwell. Good to be with you.

CAMEROTA: We begin with more details about the former president's behavior on January 6th, two Secret Service sources have just confirmed to CNN that Donald Trump did angrily demand to be taken to the U.S. Capitol as rioters, may I say, armed rioters approached Capitol Hill and he berated his protective detail when he did not get his way.

BLACKWELL: So this is significant because it corroborate some of the testimony from Cassidy Hutchinson on Tuesday, which Trump and his allies have been trying to discredit.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) CASSIDY HUTCHINSON, FORMER AIDE TO TRUMP WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF MARK MEADOWS: The president reached up towards the front of the vehicle to grab at the steering wheel. Mr. Engel grabbed his arm, said, "Sir, you need to take your hand off the steering wheel. We're going back to the West Wing. We're not going to the Capitol."

Mr. Trump then used his free hand to lunge towards Bobby Engel. And mister - when Mr. Ornato had recounted this story to me, he had motioned towards his clavicles.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: All right. Let's start with the new reporting. CNN Congressional Correspondent Ryan Nobles has it. What are you learning?

RYAN NOBLES, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right, Victor. This comes from two different sources within the Secret Service who spoke to our Noah Gray, who said that this story of the former president being irate and demanding to be taken to the Capitol on the day of January 6 was something that was spread around the Secret Service in the weeks, months and days after what happened on January 6th. Some recounting the story as early as February.

And the two different sources have stories that are very similar to the one that Cassidy Hutchinson testified to in the hearing on Tuesday, saying that the President was mad and that he lunged toward the steering wheel in an effort to try and get the detail to take him to Capitol Hill.

And what's also important is that that second source that we spoke to said that they had heard the story directly from the driver of the Presidential Suburban that Trump was in on that day. Now, both of these sources never said that the stories that they heard indicated that there was any type of physical altercation or that the President himself ever was able to grab hold of the steering wheel.

It's important to point out that Hutchinson never makes that direct claim either, just saying that he was lunging in that direction. But what it does more than anything is it corroborates the most important part of this story that the President was angry and that he was demanding that he be taken to the Capitol where he had already encouraged a group of writers who he knew were armed to go to the Capitol and be a part of that.

And that's the thing that the Committee is most concerned about. It's also important to point out, Victor and Alisyn, that when the Secret Service has pushed back on that testimony, when they've refuted parts of it, they've never disputed the idea that Trump was mad and that he wanted to go back to the Capitol.

Of course, the other aspect of this is that the Secret Service has said that Tony Ornato and Bobby Engel, the two agents in question involved in this are willing to go back and testify under oath. So far, we don't know if those depositions have been scheduled. Victor and Alisyn? BLACKWELL: Ryan Nobles on Capitol Hill, thank you. Let's go now to CNN Security Correspondent Josh Campbell. Josh, the Secret Service is not used to obviously being in the spotlight. How concerning is the reporting? You've spoken with some agents. Put that piece in the puzzle.

JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the two parts there. The first part about this agency, as you mentioned, this is a buttoned up agency that's not used to being in the limelight. It certainly is now, particularly after that testimony, and what allegedly took place inside the Presidential SUV on January 6th.

Now, again, after that hearing with Ms. Hutchinson who testified what she was told about what transpired, the Secret Service then came out and an official telling us that those two agents in question dispute parts of what actually occurred there, particularly Trump grabbing the steering wheel trying to grab one of his agents.

But what is particularly concerning with this new reporting from our colleague, Noah Gray, is that this was apparently an episode that was discussed for months and months inside the Secret Service. Our colleague spoke to one agent who spoke to the driver of that vehicle who said that yes, Trump was angry. He obviously wanted to go to the Capitol.

[15:05:02]

Everyone we've talked to thus far has said that along those same lines, they're not disputing that Trump wanted to go to the Capitol on that day, despite himself, his staff, his security agents, knowing that this crowd was armed.

Now, it's important to also point out that we've seen this somewhat of a campaign to discredit this witness, Cassidy Hutchinson, who was Mark Meadows' former aide there at the White House. Official saying that well, because these officials - these agents are disputing the exact details of the moment inside that vehicle, then perhaps everything that she testified to is in question.

That has somewhat turned on its head now with our sources now telling us that, no, this has been widely known inside the Secret Service that on that day Trump was very irate. According to one of those sources who spoke with agents on the protective detail, Trump at one point tried to lunge forward whether he made contact with the steering wheel. That is not in question but the more we're hearing, the more we're hearing about a president who was very angry.

It's also important to point out based on our colleague, Noah Gray's sources that this was not the first time that Trump was irate among around his agents. In fact, one source saying that the Trump often had fits of anger, including throwing and breaking things, which also tracks with another story that we heard during that testimony from Ms. Hutchinson.

And so again, a lot of questions still out there and we don't know whether these two agents will actually be testifying before the Committee under oath as Ms. Hutchinson did. But the more and more we're hearing the more we're starting to get a little bit more light shed on what actually transpired in that vehicle.

No one disputing that Trump was angry. No one disputing that despite knowing that members of that crowd were armed and potentially dangerous, he was still trying to lead them to the Capitol where those votes were being counted. Victor and Alisyn?

CAMEROTA: Okay. Josh Campbell, thank you for that reporting.

Joining us now our CNN Political Commentators Errol Louis and S.E. Cupp. We also have CNN Senior Legal Analyst Elie Honig back with us and CNN Law Enforcement Analyst Jonathan Wackrow. He's a former Secret Service agent himself under President Obama.

So Jonathan, I want to start with you. I - correct me if I'm wrong, isn't the biggest part of this story that if it was too dangerous for Secret Service agents to take the President to the Capitol, it was too dangerous for the Vice President and the lawmakers and the police officers who didn't know what they were about to be confronting and the Trump administration did nothing to call off that crowd with weapons.

JONATHAN WACKROW, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Absolutely, Alisyn, that spot on analysis right there. I mean, listen, let's just take a step back, we know that through prior testimony we actually do know that the President was angry. His intent was to go to the U.S. Capitol.

And then when told by the Secret Service that he wasn't going to be able to go, his anger elevated. What's at dispute is what was the level of that anger, did it man it manifest itself physically inside of that limo, we'll get the answer soon when these agents testify under oath as to actually what happened inside that limo.

But let's not miss this main point, which is a determination was made by the Secret Service as to the feasibility of taking the president up to the U.S. Capitol. The return on that information was that the threat environment of the US Capitol was too elevated. The operational environment was deteriorating, the security around the Capitol was deteriorating. Capitol Police were not able to contain the protestors and rioters that were coming up there and now we know from testimony earlier this week that individuals outside of the ellipse had weapons.

So the Secret Service knew that, local law enforcement knew that. The threat assessment was quickly done. Hey, we can't move protectee, the President of the United States, from the Ellipse to the U.S. Capitol, too dangerous we're going back to the White House.

But your point right there is why wasn't that information relayed to the U.S. Capitol, why weren't defenses bolstered very quickly because we had time. The building was - the U.S. Capitol wasn't breached yet, so we had time to bolster the physical defenses of that building and that did not occur and that question needs to be answered very quickly. BLACKWELL: S.E., to you - I mean, we've started this by saying that some of those around former President Trump himself have tried to use this element to discredit her testimony. The fact that we are talking about this and not that they knew that there were guns that there were spears at the ends of flagpoles, what was coming, how much of that is a victory for those who are trying to discredit Hutchinson?

S.E. CUPP, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Let me just also add to Alisyn's excellent point and Jonathan's excellent point that the President also said let them in, they're not here to hurt me.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

CUPP: He did not know that. There are threats against the president all the time. And someone could have come in and endangered other people because the President was so unconcerned about his armed supporters at the Ellipse and then going to the Capitol.

As for Cassidy Hutchinson, I don't know what she would have to gain from making this story up and I think we're going to learn pretty quickly that as we are that it's going to be corroborated.

[15:10:01]

This is a person who was happy to work for Trump, happy to work in the White House, told her college newspaper that it was the honor of her life to work in the Trump administration as an intern. This isn't a person who I think would have anything to gain by lying. In fact, her old circle of friends are turning on her. Trump world is turning the screws on her.

So I think we can believe her and I think our reporting will probably lead to the conclusion that she had been told this by Tony Ornato and that others had as well.

CAMEROTA: Hey, Errol, dozens of police officers were gravely injured that day on January 6th after President Trump said he didn't care that his - that the mob had weapons.

ERROL LOUIS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. Yes.

CAMEROTA: I just have to bring it back to lives were lost, people were maimed; police officers, because he said, I don't care. They're not here to hurt me.

LOUIS: Sure. It's a - it's troubling to say the least. It also raises a lot of really important questions. One is, can the order - a direct order from the President of the United States be disregarded? I mean, can - his Secret Service detail tell them, no, apparently they can, I didn't know that. I wonder what happens in the future if there's a similar case or one where you change the facts a little bit, and you've got a bit of a crisis on your hands.

The other question to me is what was the President trying to do? What was he going to do if they did take him down there into the middle of that mess? And he knew, apparently, that there were armed people down there. I mean, what was he intending to do? Was he intending to sort of, I guess, bully, maybe bluster his way into the building? At what point would that then turn into a confrontation, say, between, what, his detail and the Capitol Police and the rioters all in a three way melee inside the Capitol.

It's unbelievable that these things would happen. I would only also say that, look, Cassidy Hutchinson, her name and face are on the record. She rose her hand and she swore under oath that what she heard was true, that what she knew to the best of her ability was the truth. Those who were trying to discredit her are free to contact the Committee and under oath do the same thing. And if they can't, they should obviously not be given the same level of serious regard that she has - really want for herself.

BLACKWELL: To that point, Elie, in determining the credibility of one side of this discussion and the other, what are the considerations here?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, Victor, this is a standard battle that plays out in almost every trial. Oftentimes, when a defense lawyer is confronted with a witness who provides devastating testimony and they can't really do anything with the core of the testimony, the strategy is let's pick out a detail that we think is vulnerable, that we can maybe get someone to take the stand and contest and say, aha, we can test that detail, therefore, you should disregard everything that this person has said.

The counter is that is the 38th most important thing in this story. Did the President lunge for the wheel or not? It is undisputed Donald Trump was desperate to go down to the Capitol. That is the point. And how do you determine credibility, there's no mechanical formula.

You've just heard S.E. Cupp and Errol Louis do the same calculation that jurors do every day, who has more of an incentive? Does S.E. - does Cassidy Hutchinson have some incentive to lie here? No. Does Tony Ornato, by the way, have a history of telling people things that they then report and he then denies? Yes. He's done it to Hutchinson. He did it to our colleague, Alyssa Farah. He did it to (inaudible) Col. Keith Kellogg. And so you have to ask who has more credibility here.

And again, keep in mind, Cassidy Hutchinson is backed up on the core of her testimony left, right and center, including by Donald Trump's own admissions.

CAMEROTA: Hey, Jonathan, how about this scenario that Errol just laid out, about Errol's question if when you were working as a Secret Service agent for President Obama, if he'd said, I really want to do something and you'd said, "Sir, it's not safe." Who wins?

WACKROW: Well, it's putting the life of the protectee, in this case, the President of the United States, at danger, the Secret Service wins. They're mandated under statute 18 USC 3056 to provide protection to the President of the United States. This is not a choose your own adventure if you're the president. It's not you get to do whatever you want. And there's an important point here that the Secret Service protects the President of the United States, but they also protect the presidency. They protect the continuity of the Office of the President and making sure that democracy continues on. So this isn't just one person gets to decide whatever they want.

And to that point, we heard that the President wanted the magnetometers pulled down to let people who they knew were armed into the Ellipse. The Secret Service is never going to allow that. One; because it could endanger the President of the United States and also it could endanger other guests that are there who are attending the event.

So again, Secret Service while they try to accommodate every request by the protectees, mindful that they have a political objective, were never going to put the President's life at risk.

BLACKWELL: S.E. what do you assess the impact of this testimony?

[15:15:04]

Of course, it's for posterity, for legislative purposes. But you might have heard Sen. Toomey who said that this makes it harder for Trump in 2024. What's your take?

CUPP: Yes. I think there's a lot going on in here. If you listen to Liz Cheney recently, I think what she's doing is giving a script to other Republicans both in 2022 and 2024 to say this is the message, if you want to beat back Trump, this is the message we're calling him a threat to democracy and he shouldn't be allowed near our democracy again. Then you've got folks that used to be firmly in Trump's camp, folks at Fox News, Mick Mulvaney, folks from his inner circle coming out and saying this is really, really bad.

This - we don't see how Trump has a way out of this. There's additional reporting that GOP mega donors are a bit skittish. Now, Trump still has a huge war chest, but if he's relying mostly on small dollar donations and those mega donors are wondering if they should really back him in 2024, that doesn't look great for Trump.

Add all - so all of that, Ron DeSantis is climbing in the polls and it has not been a great couple of weeks for Donald Trump.

CAMEROTA: Errol, it does feel as though this may be a tipping point, we've thought that before, do you think this time looks different?

LOUIS: We saw that before, we've almost always been wrong about that, 13 million people apparently watched Cassidy Hutchinson's testimony. That will sink in. I think there were key categories of voters, independents, in particular, people who are genuinely on the fence about their party allegiances or how they feel about Donald Trump, who I think you can't underestimate the impact that this will have.

And I think they impact can be gauged in part by the fact that the President has been removed and banned from Twitter to his own substandard social media platform to try and discredit her as well. He knows there's a problem here and I think that will continue.

CAMEROTA: S.E., Errol, Jonathan, Elie, thank you all.

BLACKWELL: The July 4th weekend gets off to a bit of a rough start for travelers. Hundreds of flight cancellations and the threat of storms across the country, more next.

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[15:21:27]

BLACKWELL: Higher gas prices are not stopping the record number of Americans from hitting the road this holiday weekend.

CAMEROTA: AAA predicts an all time high, 42 million people will drive 50 miles or more. They are not letting this national average of gas stop them. The national average for a gallon is now $4.84.

BLACKWELL: It is not just road trips, passengers are now heading, of course - look at this.

CAMEROTA: Look at that.

BLACKWELL: Geez. That the airport in Denver going to the airports at rates we've not seen since the start of the pandemic. Airlines are facing a new round of delays and cancellations though already today. More than 300 flights canceled, more than 3,000 delayed. Pilots, many of whom have been protesting this week, are blaming the airlines for not having adequate staff.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DENNIS TAJER, SPOKESMAN, ALLIED PILOTS: This week we had clear skies and we had over 700 cancellations. I had one of the flights I was on was canceled. Over 90 percent of those flights were attributed to not having a pilot connected to the flight deck. So this is - this really comes to the egg or the chicken. The bottom line is management was not prepared.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Not having a pilot, that's a definite problem, I would say, for a plane. CNN's Natasha Chen is at LAX. Natasha, what are you seeing there?

NATASHA CHEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Alisyn, there's a constant flow of traffic behind us, but people are getting through the security lines relatively quickly here. More than 50 flights have been delayed out of LAX, But that's still a really small percentage of the overall number of flights in an out of this airport.

If there are delay issues, I'm hearing some stories from people waiting for loved ones on inbound flights from other parts of the country. And we are seeing that there are weather issues, storms affecting the other flights, potentially in every region really except the west coast.

But we know the issue isn't just weather. Like you just mentioned, we're seeing record numbers of people coming back to fly just at a time when the airline industry is dealing with staffing shortages. Here at LAX and at Chicago Midway, for example, each place seeing about a 37 percent increase in travelers passing through this holiday weekend compared to this time last year.

We met one traveler who came in from Japan today who said there was a long wait at customs and she's now going to try standby to fly to the East Coast. Here's what she said about strategizing to keep herself sane (ph).

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANGEL ORSINI, TRAVELER: Knowing what has happened, the flight challenges and so it's just trying to get to the first flight out, normally a lot of people don't get the morning ones and also like weather normally happens in the afternoon or late evening. So it's just like trying to get your first shot out in the morning, so that's like the best advice. But I try to apply it to myself in my travels just get the first one out because that's the first one that you could definitely try.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHEN: On Sunday, TSA said it screened the most number of passengers in U.S. airports since the pandemic began. And I've actually been saying that same phrase at various holidays in the last two years at other U.S. airports, it just indicates that the numbers of passengers continue to build while the airline staff perhaps have not caught up with that same increase. The major airline carriers say that they're doing everything they can to make air travel smooth this weekend, including trimming back flights. Delta CEO even saying that he's bringing in hundreds of corporate employees to Atlanta and New York airports just to help out there, Alisyn and Victor.

BLACKWELL: All right. I hope it helps. Natasha Chen, thank you.

[15:25:00]

And as we've discussed, stormy weather also expected to make a mess of holiday travel plans. Meteorologist Jennifer Gray is here, so what can we expect?

JENNIFER GRAY, CNN WEATHER CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Victor. I think the weather this weekend is only going to make matters worse. We have a large area of scattered storms across the southeast, severe storms across the Ohio Valley and then scattered isolated storms across the Southwest as well.

We currently have a ground stop in Reagan as well as Baltimore not showing up on the graphic yet because it's brand new news also have 30 minute delay in Atlanta right now due to those isolated showers and storms. And so they're just going to be compounded as we go through the rest of the evening should get better for the late evening flights and then we could see it once again tomorrow.

And then as the showers push offshore by Sunday, I do think Sunday and Monday will be better travel days as far as the weather goes. So there is a slight risk of severe weather through Boston, New York, Philly and D.C. These are some big cities a lot of flights fly out of here, so this is for tomorrow, could see damaging winds and hail.

So do expect some delays in those cities tomorrow. We could actually see some moderate to major delays in cities like New York, as well as D.C. Could also see some sporadic delays across the southeast on Saturday as well as Sunday where we're looking at places like Atlanta, Memphis, Raleigh, even Orlando, experiencing possible delays.

The weather for Independence Day though does look better especially for the Northeast temperatures are going to be warm, could see some scattered showers for the Southeast as well as the midsection the country looking good guys.

CAMEROTA: Okay. Jennifer Gray, thank you very much. I think it's so interesting that none of this is deterring people. People are hungry to get out there and ...

BLACKWELL: It's been awhile.

CAMEROTA: ... it's been awhile.

BLACKWELL: It's been a while.

CAMEROTA: Okay. Meanwhile, more than a month after the Uvalde school shooting, officials are still stonewalling. Now family members of victims are taking on the city council. We are live there next.

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