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Suspect in Custody After Six Killed in Illinois Parade Shooting; Two Police Officers Shot During July 4 Festival in Philadelphia; Resident Describes Bloody Scene at Highland Park Parade Shooting. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired July 05, 2022 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[10:00:00]

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. I'm Erica Hill.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Jim Sciutto.

I'll admit, it is hard to find the words this morning, a day to gather, to celebrate for so many Americans, turned into what has become an all too familiar uniquely American tragedy. This morning, a 22-year-old man is in custody suspected of opening fire into crowds of innocent people, families, mothers and fathers and children, gathered for the Highland Park Fourth of July parade, this is just north of Chicago. Six people dead, dozens others hospitalized.

HILL: Police are calling this attack on parade-goers both random and intentional. I do want to warn you, some of the video you're about to see is disturbing.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEFF LEON, WITNESS (voice over): It sounded like a string of firecrackers going off inside of a big metal trash bin. And at first, that's what I thought it was, 20, 30, maybe.

ZOE PAWLCZAK, SHOOTING WITNESS: I just grabbed my dad and we ran. And suddenly everyone was running behind us and people were just shot behind us. There was a girl just dead. Another man was shot in the ear, blood all over his face.

DR. DAVID BAUM, TREATED SHOOTING VICTIMS AT THE SCENE: you look down and you saw just people screaming, you saw people on the ground. And I think the instinct is of a physician to not run away. Some of the bodies were -- there was an evisceration injury from the power of this gun and the bullets. There was another person who had an unspeakable head injury.

These are the bullets in guns that 18-year-olds have a right to shoot down on a parade in the sleepy little community July 4th parade.

GOV. J.B. PRITZKER (D-IL): If you're angry today, I'm here to tell you be angry. I'm furious. I'm furious that yet more innocent lives were taken by gun violence. While we celebrate the Fourth of July just once a year, mass shootings have become our weekly, yes, weekly American tradition.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HILL: CNN's Josh Campbell and Adrienne Broaddus joining us now on the scene on Highland Park.

Adrienne, first to you, what more do we know about the victims this morning, not only those who were killed but also those who are now recovering, dozens injured, as we know?

ADRIENNE BROADDUS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: So many injuries, those injuries, Erica, range from serious to critical. We know that ages were from 8 to 85 years old. This morning, tributes are beginning to pour in for at least one of the deceased that we know of, that was Jacki Sundheim. She has been identified by members of her synagogue.

Also there was a Facebook post by a woman who grew up here in the area who said that Ms. Jacki helped her coordinate her wedding. She describes the day, remembers smiling when she would see Jacki's face. She said, as a bride, she helped fix her veil, and she opened the door, the door leading to the aisle she would walk down to meet her partner.

Meanwhile, we're also hearing from survivors. Yesterday, we heard from Zoe. She was a witness on the scene who spoke to us. And she told me yesterday she sheltered behind a dumpster with others, including children. And she also told us about a parent who asked her to watch over his children, while he went to go look for his other family members.

Listen in to what that man said he did, how he protected his son after that gunfire.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALEXANDER SANDOVAL, AT HIGHLAND PARK JULY 4 PARADE WHEN SHOOTING STARTED: He started shooting again, and we ran behind the building and I put my son in the dumpster, and he sat there with his dog. And I went back to look for the rest of my family, I left him with someone there so that I can go back to get my phone and find the rest of my family because they ran away also and it was just horrible.

[10:05:01]

I went back, there were just few people shot on the ground. And there was a little boy that was in somebody's -- one of the police officer's arms. And that was the worst experience ever because all I thought about was my son and I can only imagine what that family is going through.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROADDUS: And we talk a lot about the physical wounds, but there are also those invisible wounds that everyone who was here will are to have to live with.

Meanwhile, before I let you, I also want to go back to something that we reported on earlier. The mayor told me in an interview a short time ago that that gun used was purchased legally. She also said that it was her understanding the suspect's father helped with the purchase of that gun. She is now walking that comment back saying she misspoke. And I know you will be speaking with her in a few moments. She is standing right here to the left of me.

But, for now, I'm going to send it back to you and my colleague, Josh Campbell.

SCIUTTO: That's right. We'll be speaking to the Highland Park mayor just after this. Thanks so much, Adrienne.

Josh, I understand an FBI team has just arrived on the scene. What is their job there?

JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Jim. There are two parts of this investigation. You can see, as we pan off to the left, the FBI is -- what they call the evidence response team, is now on site. This is a group of special agents, analysts, professional staff who have day jobs, but whenever there is an evidence need, they will respond.

Particularly, we see these teams out here with so many of these mass shootings across the country. They are doing the forensic side of this investigation. They're scouring the scene, walking it inch by inch, looking for any possible evidence, looking for bullet fragments. They're obviously also processing the firearms and some of the shell casings. That's what we can see here.

There is also a robust investigation happening behind the scenes. Now, we're hearing from our law enforcement sources that this suspected shooter here had a robust online presence, including some very troubling posts that raised questions about whether there were warning signs here that were potentially missed.

Just to describe some of those in one post. You see this animation of a figure that depicts or resembles this shooter actually conducting an attack, and videos with lots of blood and things like that. So, again, a lot of questions about whether someone who may have known the shooter picked up on these warning signs, the FBI, local law enforcement obviously looking into this person's past to try to get to the bottom of what this motivation was.

We know that the shooter was taken into custody here without incident. There was a flurry of activity here. Police officers rushing from this area to about five miles from where I am. I followed the SWART team there, got to where this vehicle was. We saw them processing that vehicle. They were concerned initially that after this person was arrested that there still might be some kind of incendiary devices or some other type of dangerous material inside that vehicle. They did this methodical processing. Authorities, you could see the relief look on their face after this manhunt was over. But obviously for them and obviously members of this community, it is kind of a mixed bag. They are relieved that the suspect is no longer a threat but also obviously mourning the loss of six of their residents and dozens here injured.

SCIUTTO: And the suspect was on the run for some time. Josh Campbell, thanks so much.

Joining me now to discuss, Mayor of Highland Park, Illinois, Nancy Rotering. She was leading the July 4th parade at the time of the shooting. Mayor, we know you have a lot to take care. Thanks so much for taking the time this morning.

MAYOR NANCY ROTERING (D-HIGHLAND PARK, IL): Thank you for the opportunity to talk with you.

SCIUTTO: First, I want to begin with the weapon. What do we know, if anything, new about the type of weapon that was used and how the shooter obtained it?

ROTERING: My understanding is that the shooter obtained the weapon legally. I don't know the exact type. I do know that people have -- witnesses have said to me at least 30 rounds were shot. And at the beginning, it was very measured. And so I don't know what that implies but it sounds like there was a lot of opportunity for the mayhem that he committed.

SCIUTTO: It has been described as a high-powered rifle and the sound of it is one that fires very quickly but with a tremendous amount of force. There has been an assault weapons ban in place in your city in 2013, not in the state of Illinois. You will hear, I spoke to the governor of Arkansas a short time ago, Asa Hutchinson, after shootings like this to say, well, the state or the city, they had local laws against weapons like this and didn't make a difference. Can you protect your community, a community like yours, without national laws given the ability to buy a gun, say, outside of state?

ROTERING: So, I think it is important to note that our assault weapons ban and large capacity magazine ban is reflective of the values of our community. And what I would love for people to hear from all of this is, obviously, obviously we have a problem in this country if we have weekly mass shootings involving these weapons of war. And it is important for us to talk about how to provide that protection on a broader scale.

[10:10:00]

Whether it is statewide, whether it's nationally, I think there is a real obvious need that these events and the frequency of their occurrence using legally acquired weapons would indicate that these laws are not protecting the very people that they were intended to protect.

My community came together yesterday to celebrate freedom. There is no freedom if you're fearing a mass shooting on a weekly basis. SCIUTTO: Yes. I understand you have said you crossed paths with the suspect when he was a little boy. What do we know right now about whether, given his social media posts prior, he was on anyone's radar prior to this shooting, local authorities, police, the government, what do we know?

ROTERING: My understanding is that there were several people within his community that were involved with what he was putting on social media. But to be honest, I don't want to glorify what somebody put on social media. I think the real question people need to be asking is while people are angry in other countries, maybe having mental health issues in other countries, we are unique in that only the United States allows people to access these high-powered weapons.

SCIUTTO: There was a tremendous police presence, we have seen in the video, and witnesses have told us, prior to this event. I mean, it looked in many ways like a military operation, right? I mean, you see people in body armor with high-powered weapons, I'm talking about the authorities here, and in the wake of this, and yet a young man with a high-powered weapon was able to kill and wound so grievously.

Can a city properly defend itself against a threat like this, even with all those tools that law enforcement has?

ROTERING: Look, we have had all these examples in the recent weeks of communities where people were going to the grocery store, people were going to school, people were celebrating the Fourth of July, I think our nation needs to have a true conversation with itself, because we know that there is not enough police force, there are not enough police, there are not enough weapons in this world, if you got people who are going to outgun the police with these weapons of war.

SCIUTTO: Before we go, do we know now that we have the suspected shooter being called a person of interest, how close police, local authorities are to charging him?

ROTERING: My understanding is that they'll be levying charges later today.

SCIUTTO: Well, Mayor Nancy Rotering, our hearts go out to you and your community. The work you have to do now in the wake of this I know must be harrowing. So, we wish you the best of luck.

ROTERING: I appreciate it. Thank you very much.

HILL: Two police officers were shot during another July 4th celebration, this one in Philadelphia. I want to show you video of those moments. You see the fireworks there. Now, look as the camera zooms in here. These are folks running for their lives. They're coming down the Benjamin Franklin Parkway after they hear the sounds of gunfire.

Two officers were providing security at the July 4th concert when they were shot. One suffered a graze wound to the forehead. The other hit in the shoulder. We are told both will be okay. Philadelphia's mayor, though, not holding back as he addressed the gun violence in his city. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR JIM KENNEY (D-PHILADELPHIA, PA): If I had the ability to take care of guns, I would. But the legislature won't let us. The U.S. Congress won't let us. The governor does the best that he can. Our attorney general does the best he can. But this is a gun country. It is crazy. We're the most armed country in world history and we're one of the least safest. So, you know, until Americans decide that they want to give up the guns and give up the opportunity to get guns, we're going to have this problem.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: So far, no arrests have been made in connection to that shooting. Police are asking anyone with information to come forward.

We continue to hear these gut-wrenching witness accounts, people who were there on the scene of the Highland Park shooting in the areas around. Among those accounts, one from a dad who had to find a way to escape his kids, older kids, one of them a son with special needs who's in a wheelchair. He's going to share more of his story just ahead.

SCIUTTO: And you can imagine sitting in one of those chairs, couldn't you, at a parade? Well, we will speak to a criminal profile about the warning signs the gunman displayed and if anything could have been done to prevent yet one more tragedy like this.

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SCIUTTO: So, some news on that shooting. The Highland Park mayor just told us we are expecting to learn later today what charges the suspect will face, this as we continue to hear from witnesses about the utter terror they and their families experienced in the midst of that July 4th parade. We do want to warn you, the photo you're about to see, like so many images, from this is disturbing.

HILL: Miles Zaremski captured the image, this image, just minutes after the shooting, saying he was horrified to witness a beautiful day turn into a bloody nightmare before his eyes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MILES ZAREMSKI, WITNESSES PARADE SHOOTING: There were multiple pops and then there was a pause and then there were more multiple pops, I'm guessing around 30 ballpark. And I knew from being in the reserves decades ago, that was from an automatic firearm.

And then I saw blood on the ground. I saw blood on arms and legs, of injured individuals, and then, unfortunately, and graphically I saw what looked to be three female bodies in pools of blood still, as if they had passed away from being murdered by this gunman.

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HILL: Joining us now is retired Los Angeles Police Sergeant Cheryl Dorseyand Casey Jordan, criminologist and behavioral analyst.

Sergeant Dorsey, I want to begin with you. As we look at how this scene played out, as Jim has pointed out this morning, we see a fair amount of police officers on scene there, we see the police presence. The mayor just said to Jim, we basically need to examine, saying there is not enough police in the world, people are going to outgun them.

As we look at these all too frequent mass shootings and try to take away those lessons, do you see, Sergeant, anything that could have been done differently in a scenario like this, with shots being fired, those shots from a rooftop?

CHERYL DORSEY, AUTHOR, BLACK AND BLUE, THE CREATION OF A SOCIAL ADVOCATE: Well, no one would have expected that a suspect would position himself on to the rooftop of a building and fire down into a crowd of awaiting spectators. And so a lot of what police work involves as being reactive as oppose to proactive. But when these kinds of situations happen, and they introduce something new and different that we haven't seen, then we too will readjust and reconfigure how we respond going forward.

And so now when we're on the scene of a parade route, not only do we have to peruse the crowd but we need to look up, look at rooftops, look in trees and every other place where a suspect could be hiding. I mean, we don't expect that.

But let me just say this, because I'm hearing a lot of talk about this guy is a -- maybe has mental illness and I want to say what bothers me and my community about this, is that every time there is a white male mass shooter, he's deemed to be mentally ill, 51/50, and if it's a black male, he's a criminal, and not taken into custody without incident like this kid was, and I'm talking about Jayland Walker.

SCIUTTO: Well, the other issue on mental health as an explanation is mental health experts, including the American Psychiatric Association and others, note that only a very small percentage of people with diagnosable mental health issues commit violent acts and a small percentage of violent acts are committed by people who were diagnosed with something prior.

And, Casey Jordan, you're a criminologist, a behavior analyst, so often we see warning signs after this, I mean, the social media posts of the suspected shooter, but there was, to our knowledge so far, no formal mental health diagnosis here. I mean, can you police the whole population for the folks who might want to shoot someone? I mean, this is -- that's in effect what folks who make that argument are asking.

CASEY JORDAN, ATTORNEY: Correct. And for everyone like me, who actually went online with the intent of doing some analysis on this young man yesterday before they pulled all his social media down, the images that he depicted were very artistic but very disturbing, including the lyrics to his music, you know, he went by Awake the Rapper. But he had disturbing images we would call leakage, and yet none of them would rise to the occasion of getting him legally, civilly committed.

And it really does raise the question. Now we're all Monday morning quarterbacking, look at all these animation of people and pools of blood and he has a Lee Harvey Oswald headline over his shoulder, he depicts his own demise. The real question is, it is not a promise of violence per se until they get the gun. So, when does it cross over? When do you say, oh, he's clearly mentally disturbed, but that's not mentally ill, when they go and get the gun, that's crossing the threshold into a promise of violence.

And that's what we really need to do. We can't see mental illness under a microscope but we can hold a gun in our hands and do something about that and try to keep them out of the hands of the people who are exhibiting these warning signs.

HILL: You look at a state like Illinois, which does have some of the strictest gun laws in the country, they have background checks, they have red flag laws. We look at all of this, Sergeant, and sort of to the points you're both making here, right? And here we are, this is this, sadly, Jim and I were texting about this yesterday, and I said the two words that keep coming up to me are horrifying and absolutely predictable. Of course, in this country, in 2022, sadly, we would be talking about a mass shooting at a Fourth of July parade.

And so, Sergeant, as you look at this, and how this is playing out every single week, the excuses that we hear across the board, do you see anything really breaking through? Do you see that we are at a point in this country where people actually want to have a substantive conversation about what needs to change?

DORSEY: No. I mean, sadly, 20 years after Sandy Hook, I mean, why does it take 20 years after babies are shot and killed for someone to have this conversation and do something substantively? And so while I know the Second Amendment Right folks are going to lose their mind behind any conversation about furthering background checks or eliminating -- limiting the possession of guns, what is the exigent circumstance, what is the urgency of giving someone a gun?

[10:25:07]

I think if someone is displaying the kind of behavior that this shooter has done and others, let's sit down and have a conversation with them before you give them a gun. If you want to give it to him, then give it to him, but let's have a conversation and make sure that they're worthy and deserving and capable of possessing a weapon.

SCIUTTO: Casey Jordan, the other explanation you will hear often from pro-gun advocates is that, well, it is not an issue of the guns, it is an issue of a culture of violence. In the data, is there evidence that America has more violent thoughts, right, or violent people than other countries, or does the data show it is relatively consistent and the difference is the weapons? What have you found? JORDAN: It is the weapons. I mean, what we have in America is freedom of expression. We have incredible freedoms. We can say just about anything other than a threat against the president, and it will be excused under the First Amendment. If you look at what has happened, and I hate to beat the dead horse, but look at what happened in Australia, after Port Arthur, within six months, they removed guns. When you look at Dunblane, Scotland, within six months, the guns were gone. And it has made a massive, massive difference.

So, we are going to be free, to be mentally ill, to have violent thoughts to express them, but we are the only country on Earth which allows unfettered access to guns. Legal, illegal, that is the linchpin which takes those violent fantasies, hopelessness, despair. Because this young man, he really wasn't so much angry as he was despondent and turned it into a mass shooting. Get the guns out and then we can work on the mental health at the same time. But the guns we can attack now, we can get rid of them now, mental health is going to take a lot longer.

HILL: We can. But is there the will to do that? And, sadly, it often falls on politics. Casey Jordan, Sergeant Cheryl Dorsey, a lot more to talk about with this. I appreciate you both joining us this morning. Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Sadly, it won't be the last time we talk about it.

Coming up next, we are going to speak to an Illinois state senator who was riding in a convertible in that parade when the gunfire started. Hear how she fled to safety with her grandchildren and what she makes of this country's epidemic of gun violence.

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