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Police Say, Shooter Contemplated Second Attack in Madison, Wisconsin; Trump White House Counsel Cipollone to Testify Before 1/6 Panel Tomorrow; W. Kamau Bell Tackles Critical Race Theory in United Shades. Aired 10:30-11a ET

Aired July 07, 2022 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:30:00]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: With a weapon that can fire like that, at that speed, with that power, that velocity, does that make your job as a law enforcement officer harder?

MIKE FANONE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Absolutely. You know, no doubt. First of all, my understanding, the weapon that was used in the mass shooting was a Smith and Wesson MMP-15, which is an AR platform, semiautomatic rifle. It is chambered in 2-2-3 and 5-5-6. Those weapons are capable of defeating the average police officer's body armor. So, obviously, I am concerned about a firearm that cuts through my body armor like a knife through butter.

The subcompact or Kel-Tec Sub-2000, the weapon that was presumably going to be used in the follow-up shooting, like you said, it is a pistol carbine, it has got a folding stock, it's easily concealable, and that in and of itself is very concerning to a police officer.

SCIUTTO: So, when you look back at the assault weapons ban in 1994, which often gets a lot of criticism from gun advocates for saying, well, how do you define an all weapon? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I suppose you could say, but a lot of these things were banned in there. I mean, the AR platform that we've seen so often in mass shootings, things like bayonet holders, multiple capacity magazines. There were lots of restrictions on the kind of hand-like grip that you had for those.

Just from your perspective, given what you faced in 20 years in police, if you were to ban certain kinds of weapons, even though not everyone agrees on what the particular kind of weapon -- whether there is one kind of weapon, right, that makes a difference, but if you were to establish restrictions for some of those things, would that make a difference not just in mass shootings for your job in general?

FANONE: I mean, as a police officer, for me, the focus would be on the amount of ammunition that can be held, first and foremost. 30- round, 50-round, and even 100-round capacity magazines have become incredibly prevalent. They are easily purchased online and they are relatively cheap. $50 to $75 gets you a 100-round drum magazine.

The other concern -- I am a gun owner myself. I am an avid hunter. I have been for most of my life. I own a variety of different weapons. I also own an AR-15. I purchased the AR-15 when I was a police officer because I was required to carry one as an officer and I thought that it was my responsibility to remain proficient.

I do believe that military personnel and police officers should have access to those firearms in their personal capacity to remain proficient. But for me, as a gun owner, the AR-15 is just not a firearm that I would utilize when there are so many other options that are better suited for pretty much every purpose imaginable, whether it is a home defense or self-defense weapon or a hunting weapon.

I guess the -- you know, the issue becomes, for AR-15 owners, are we going to place our recreational wants above our public safety needs? You know, I would much rather have children living not in fear of, you know, these types of events than have the ability to own an AR-15. But that's a choice that I made for myself.

I think that we also could look at some alternatives, like reclassifying the AR-15 as a class three weapon, an NFA weapon, which places more restrictions on the accessibility of that firearm, still allows it to be accessed.

SCIUTTO: But more restriction to raise the bar.

FANONE: Yes.

SCIUTTO: I get it. Listen, I mean, a lot of different steps. Michael Fanone, I always appreciate you bringing your experience to the table here.

FANONE: Thank you, Jim.

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: We are learning that the gunman in Highland Park also drove to Madison, Wisconsin after that shoot at the parade in Illinois where he contemplated a second attack, according to police, on a July 4th celebration there.

Joining me is the mayor of Madison, Wisconsin, Mayor Satya Rhodes- Conway. Madam Mayor, good to have you with us.

This is chilling, to put it mildly, and I'm saying that, right, from my perch here in New York, for you as the mayor. When and how did you first find out that a celebration in Madison may have been a target? Did local officials from Highland Park contact you and local law enforcement before it was announced publicly?

MAYOR SATYA RHODES-CONWAY (D-MADISON, WI): Our police chief received contact from the FBI. And we did and still do stand ready to help them in their investigation.

[10:35:00]

And then our chief alerted me to the situation early on. We learned that he was here before we learned that he was contemplating an attack here, which obviously is very concerning and disturbing, you know, particularly since in each municipality, you know, we don't have the power necessarily to control something like that. We really do need a national solution. We need national gun safety laws in order to prevent something like this.

SCIUTTO: When you learned that he was there, were you alerted by the FBI when he was still in Madison or in the Madison area?

RHODES-CONWAY: We were alerted that he may be in the Madison are and they had asked for our police department's assistance if he was. Very shortly after that, we learned that he had been arrested in Highland Park.

HILL: Okay. So, he had been -- come back at that point.

As we look at this, you are calling, I know, for stricter gun legislation. You told the Cap Times last month that if you look at this, it is tough to do much at the local level, but you saw some opportunity at the state level for some, as you put it, some sort of middle ground on gun safety. And you said public health, you saw, as the most probable root there.

I know the AMA declared gun violence a public health crisis all the way back in 2016, and yet here we are. What would a public approach in your eyes look like and what would that change?

RHODES-CONWAY: You know, I think it's really important to understand that the epidemic of gun violence is so multifaceted. We tend to talk about these very large, you know, mass shooting events, which, of course, are horrifying and very scary for our communities. But in reality, gun violence is happening every day across our country.

And there is a large portion of that gun violence that is, you know, accidents or suicides that could be reduced if folks would just lock up their guns safely at home and decrease access to firearms for people who really just shouldn't have that access.

I do think it's important for us to take a public health approach here, and that's what we are doing here in Madison. We have an office of violence prevention in our public health department where funding violence interruption and violence prevention efforts right alongside with our police department's work to take a data-based approach to reducing gun violence in our streets.

HILL: Real quickly before we let you go, based on everything that's happened, has this changed any planning for events in your area moving forward?

RHODES-CONWAY: Well, obviously, we take that into account. Madison has a number of wonderful events in the summertime here. And our police department is always assessing what the risk is and how prepared we need to be. We will be prepared to the greatest extent possible. And we are already discussing what additional measures or trainings that we need to do both with law enforcement, but across city government and across multiple institutions here in Madison. So, if, you know, heaven forbid, something were to happen here, people would at least be trained to respond to the situation.

But, really, what we need is law -- we need a congressional response to this. We have to have Congress pass gun safety laws that are common sense. It cannot be left to communities to deal with this carnage every day.

HILL: Your voice is one of many calling for that. We will see if they hear you. Mayor Satya Rhodes-Conway, I appreciate your time this morning. Thank you.

Still to come here, a critical witness agrees to sit down with the January 6th committee. Details on what the former White House counsel, Pat Cipollone, may know and what he can say to the panel.

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[10:40:00]

SCIUTTO: Former Trump White House counsel Pat Cipollone is set to testify testimony before the January 6th committee. Sources tell CNN Cipollone has agreed to a transcribed interview behind closed doors after he was subpoenaed last week. Cipollone reportedly resisted Trump's various schemes to overturn the 2020 election results.

To discuss now, Jim Schultz, who served as Trump's associate White House counsel for 11 months in 2017. Jim, good to have you on, this morning. Thank you.

JIM SCHULTZ, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE LAWYER: Good morning. Thanks.

SCIUTTO: Given that Cipollone was known as a member of team normal, as they call themselves, in the White House, do you consider his testimony is potentially problematic for the former president?

SCHULTZ: Sure, it is going to be problematic. We have already heard from a number of witnesses that Cipollone was pushing back every chance he got as it related to the occurrences of January 6th. So, certainly, that's not -- those are the facts as they come out are not going to be good or the former president, no question.

SCIUTTO: Now, I understood you left before Cipollone joined the team there, in effect. He joined in 2017. But what kind of White House operation, particularly in the counsel's office, did he inherit?

SCHULTZ: Well, the counsel's office was a solid group of lawyers that McGahn had assembled. And then Cipollone brought his own team, and I think he was in 2018 or early 2019. I think it was 2018. So, he had a team of lawyers, accomplished group of lawyers, Mike Purpura, who was also serving as counsel in this matter, was also on that team.

SCIUTTO: Given the most recent testimony before the January 6th committee and, frankly, Cipollone's testimony now seems to be a reaction to the testimony we had just from Cassidy Hutchinson, specific to the former president's actions on January 6th, including apparent knowledge that members of that crowd were armed and that the president still was encouraging them to go towards the Capitol. Do you sense, and based on your conversations with other former members, assuming you have had them, of the president's team, that the legal tide might be turning against the former president?

SCHULTZ: Well, I haven't had any conversations with members of the president's former team but I can tell you that both the public relations and the legal tide are turning against the president on this, no question -- the former president on this, no question about it. I mean, the facts in a keep coming out, the fact that -- you know, take the mags away, they aren't here to hurt me, is what the former president said. Knowing they are armed, tnowing they are going to go to the Capitol. All of those things are bad facts for Donald Trump, no question about it.

SCIUTTO: There is some reporting that this has accelerated, not decelerated, the former president's intentions of announcing another run. Some have theorized that that's because he calculates that if he is an announced candidate, he is less likely to be indicted. Your read of the next steps politically here?

SCHULTZ: I don't think if anyone thinks that whether he's a candidate or not has anything to do with whether or not an indictment is brought in Fulton County or by the Justice Department. It just isn't the case. The prosecutors are going to follow the facts and the law where they take them and make those judgments accordingly. So, I don't think that factors into in any way, shape, or form, or shouldn't factor into it in any way, shape or form.

What should factor into his decision-making, he has got to be looking at the slide in the polls, that's happening. You are seeing DeSantis and he neck-and-neck with DeSantis a little bit ahead of him in New Hampshire. The public relations on this isn't going well for him. His polling numbers, you are seeing other Republicans pull ahead of him. That has got to be concerning to him. So, that all has to be taken into conversation, I imagine, as he's making these decisions.

SCIUTTO: Well, I appreciate the straight talk. Always great to have you on, Jim Schultz, thanks so much.

SCHULTZ: Thanks for having me.

HILL: Up next, it has become a focal point of local elections across the country. Now, CNN's W. Kamau Bell is taking on critical race theory like no one else can.

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[10:50:00]

HILL: Oh, you know the buzz words, woke culture, critical race theory. They have become frequent targets of the Republican Party. And in the all new season of CNN's United Shades of America, W. Kamau Bell isn't shying away from those controversial issues. Here's a preview.

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W. KAMAU BELL, CNN HOST: Right now, there're arguments about should we teach kids a more accurate history of America?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Race theory?

BELL: What did you say? Here we go, race theory. Critical race theory, what are your thoughts on that?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You can teach it without having an opinion.

BELL: But is it okay if a teacher says, I think slavery was bad? Is that okay?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.

BELL: No?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.

BELL: What if they go, Nazi is not good?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nothing is bad.

BELL: Nothing is bad?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.

BELL: And if the latter is how you heard about it first, then I'm not surprised you're confused, which is why I grind my teeth when I sleep.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's totally manipulation and manufacturing a crisis.

BELL: Who is manufacturing it?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Democrats. There is always a race card. I get so sick of it.

We need to teach children to compete when the Chinese probably know more about American history than we do.

BELL: So, we should teach better American history here.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, yes.

BELL: It's like the history of America, slavery, genocide of Native Americans?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, no.

BELL: Not that stuff?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, not the whole thing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: W. Kamau Bell joins me now.

Very clear there. We should teach more about American history but not the stuff that makes us look bad, not the stealing the land, the genocide, the slavery. This is such a great episode, one of many to come.

BELL: Thank you.

HILL: What's your biggest takeaway from it, because your conversations in this, and all of them, are remarkable.

BELL: I mean, I think a lot of times we sit online and we see people say things like that, and you go, well, that's not a real person, that's a bot, nobody really thinks that way. Well, I went to Arizona, as I call it Desert Florida, and people actually think that way.

HILL: And they really -- one of the things that shocked and me and yet didn't at the same time was a number of the people that you spoke with, their basis for their, quote/unquote, facts for critical race theory being pushed in their schools, which we know isn't happening, was what they find online. And it's the amount of misinformation fueling all of this that people see as fact.

BELL: Yes. I mean, the GOP in this country has done a great job of confusing what's important in this country. And I think that a lot of the leadership of that party has begun out of its way to conflate, to use buzz words and scary things like woke and CRT when, really, what they don't want to do, as that woman said, is teach an accurate rendition of history to our kids.

HILL: And it is a distraction.

BELL: It's a distraction, yes.

HILL: Frankly, distracts from other more important issues.

BELL: Yes. I don't know if you know we have a lot going on in this country right now.

HILL: One or two things that may need attention.

BELL: Yes. So, maybe we should just teach kids history and forget all the rest of the things.

HILL: Do you sense a change anywhere that's brewing?

BELL: In this episode, we talked to some young people from the schools in Arizona, a lot of them LGBTQ.

[10:55:04]

And they know they are being played, they know there's a distraction happening, so they are fighting back against it. But we can't just sit back and go to the young people of the future because there're young people in other part in this country who are learning quite differently?

HILL: Yes, they are, which is why it's important to stick to the facts, as we like to say, the facts first. And it's also really important to watch your show but it's fantastic. I'm so excited for the new season. Thanks for coming in this morning.

BELL: Thanks for having me.

HILL: Great to see you.

And you can catch the all-new season of United Shades of America. it premieres Sunday night 10:00 Eastern and pacific only on CNN.

I also want to mention you are the co-author of the new book, Do the Work, an anti-racist activity book, that comes out July 19th. I am looking forward to that

BELL: Yes, I got a lot of things.

HILL: All right, good, July 19th on my calendar. Thank you.

BELL: Thank you.

HILL: Thanks so much to all of you for joining us today. I'm Erica Hill.

SCIUTTO: And I'm Jim Sciutto, jealous that you got Kamau Bell.

HILL: I win the day.

SCIUTTO: You did today. I'll get you tomorrow.

At This Hour with Boris Sanchez will start right after a quick break.

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