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British Prime Minister Clings to Power Amid Resignations, Calls to Quit; New U.K. Finance Minister Urging Boris Johnson to Resign; BBC Reports: British Prime Minister Boris Johnson to Resign. Aired 4-4:30a ET

Aired July 07, 2022 - 04:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[04:00:00]

MAX FOSTER, CNN ANCHOR: Hello and a warm welcome to our viewers joining us in the United States and all around the world. I'm Max Foster joining you outside the British Houses of Parliament where Prime Minister Boris Johnson is clinging on to power whilst calls for him to resign are growing by the minute really. That and much more just ahead on CNN NEWSROOM.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BORIS JOHNSON, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: I'm happy to tell you that I'm getting on with the job that I was elected to do.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's deliberate, it's chaos.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think that it is becoming untenable for him to remain in power.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There were at least two instances in which police officers could have stopped the gunman.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm just thinking and waiting for somebody to come and save us.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: New urgency from the White House in the case of Brittney Griner.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can't rest as her safety is in question. I honestly can't rest until she's home.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Live from London, this is CNN NEWSROOM with Max Foster.

FOSTER: It is Thursday, July 7, 9:00 a.m. here in London where Britain's Prime Minister -- embattled Prime Minister -- is vowing to fight for his political future even as calls for him to step down grow even louder and list of resignations grow longer. In the just last few minutes the newly appointed chancellor of the Exchequer Nadhim Zahawi tweeted this.

Prime Minister this is not sustainable, it will only get worse for you, for the Conservative Party and most importantly of all the country. You must do the right thing and go right now.

I want to bring up the letter from him though and go into some of the detail. If you imagine This chancellor of the Exchequer is the number two in the government, number two to Boris Johnson. He was only appointed two days ago. And the crucial thing that happened yesterday in all of this was when he and other cabinet members went to Boris Johnson and basically said it is time to go.

Now under any other circumstance, that would be a time for a Prime Minister to go and I think that everyone is pretty shocked that he decided to stay after that. But it just shows what sort of premiership we've got with Boris Johnson. He is not conventional.

This is what the chancellor said in the letter.

Yesterday I made it clear to the Prime Minister along with other colleagues in Number 10 that there was only one direction that this was going and that it should -- that he should leave with dignity. Out of respect he didn't talk about this, he said, he is heartbroken that the Prime Minister hasn't listened to him and is now undermining the incredible achievements of this government at this late hour and he says that this is the government being undermined and integrity of the Prime Minister is under question. He has to go. Boris Johnson isn't going anywhere.

More than 50 lawmakers now in his government have stepped down including several just in the last few hours. Discontent over his leadership intensified of course last week with this latest scandal engulfing the government despite the mounting pressure the Prime Minister says he's going to stay in power though. This is the last we heard from him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BORIS JOHNSON, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: Frankly, Mr. Speaker, the job of a Prime Minister in difficult circumstances when you've been handed a colossal mandate is to keep going and that's what I'm going to do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOSTER: So close ally, Michael Gove, was also part of this cabinet grouping. How did Boris Johnson respond to him? Well, he fired him. Sources say Gove had urged the Prime Minister earlier in the day to accept that his time was up. And we've also learned a delegation of cabinet members went to Downing Street to ask Johnson to resign. And that's what Zahawi was talking about. And this came after all of these very difficult questions not just in that Prime Minister's question session but also a full of Parliamentary committee.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is all about you in the end. The reason these things happen is because of you. He took liberties because he knows that you'd take liberties and get away with it.

JOHNSON: But I'm not going to step down. The last thing this country needs, frankly, is an election --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because this house --

[04:05:00]

JOHNSON: Brought this on the country. I think the risk is, the risk is, that people continue to focus on this type of thing and I think that is a -- what we need to do is get on with --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How will it help the crisis?

JOHNSON: The earliest date that I can see for a general election is two years from now or 2024.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FOSTER: He keeps talking about the election, the last election, he keeps talking about how he has a mandate to carry out the work that he promised in that election. That's why he is staying. But 72 percent of adults in the U.K. believe that he should resign according to a snap poll by Savanta ComRes. That number is up 10 percent from a month ago when he survived a confidence vote.

And this is really what MPs are considering, they are questioning whether or not Boris Johnson does have the mandate of the public. He believes he has. And Nada, you are there in Downing Street. This is basically the impasse, isn't it, he feels that he has a right to remain in Downing Street and his party doesn't. Even his number two, the chancellor of the Exchequer.

NADA BASHIR, CNN REPORTER: Yes, absolutely, Max. In fact, we heard from the Prime Minister speaking yesterday during the Prime Minister's question times in House of Commons saying that he believes that he can win the next general election. It isn't looking likely though at this point that he will still be in office for that, that pressure mounting hour by hour as you mentioned that letter being issued by his number two, the chancellor of the Exchequer Nadhim Zahawi, calling on the Prime Minister to step down in just the last few minutes.

And we've also seen the newly appointed education secretary also announcing her resignation. Michelle Donelan was appointed off the back of Nadhim Zahawi, appointment to the chancellor. Just a little over 24 hours ago she has already now decided to step down from her position. Let me just read to you a little bit from her resignation letter which she has just treated out saying to the Prime Minister directly.

You have put us in an impossible situation. I'm deeply saddened that it has come to this, but as someone who values integrity above all else, I have no choice.

And that really is a central theme that we've heard from the overwhelming majority of these resignation letters, questions with the timeliness of integrity, trust in the Prime Minister. You mentioned that the Prime Minister still believes he has a mandate from his Conservative Party voters. He believes that he can power through this, weather the storm of the latest challenge in the same way that he has done with previous scandals.

This is not the first time we've stood outside Downing Street talking about crisis in Number 10, the Prime Minister has faced scandal after scandal over the last few months. And throughout it all, he has deflected, he has maintained that he can still push the party through to another election win. And he has maintained that he has that mandate. But that mandate really, Max, is crumbling hour by hour.

Now we are seeing of course those huge resignations, significant resignations, more than 50 MPs of course now have stepped down. The Prime Minister has lost command of his cabinet. And at this point it does feel like it's only a matter of time, but he as he's said yesterday during the committee hearing, believes he can still push through. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHNSON: I look at the issues that this country faces. I look at the pressures that people are under and the need for the government to focus on their priorities. I can't for the life of me see how it is responsible just to walk away from that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASHIR: Now, Max, the Prime Minister believes that he can make changes. He is going to start for example new economic policies next week, that that will be enough. But as you seeing there and as you mentioned, this is clearly not enough for his most senior cabinet ministers across the board. The question now is what happens next. Will this cause enough tension to trigger that vote of confidence that we do expect to see potentially as early as next week -- Max.

FOSTER: Away from all the politics here and the complications of how to replace the Prime Minister, for the wider public we're pretty much looking at a constitutional crisis if we're not in it already, aren't we. We've got a situation where departments of state are down to one minister in some cases. But you've also got a situation where, you know, the finance minister, and the home secretary, have both come out to say the Prime Minister should go. People are asking why they are not resigning. Well, they can't resign. You can't close down the national finances or indeed the national criminal justice system. So, they have to stay in office so they can't go. We're in a situation where, you know, the mechanics of state are grinding to a halt because he's staying.

BASHIR: Yes, absolutely. And this is the key concern here. We are seeing so many resignations coming in thick and fast at this point. The question is does the Prime Minister have enough support, enough people that he could actually make replacements, that he can fill these offices now in the wake of these resignations. Of course, there is a serious concern that he won't be able to do that. And despite that, the Prime Minister is still pushing forward.

[04:10:00]

He believes he can still control his cabinet can still push forward with his lawmakers. And of course, that isn't the message that we've been hearing from his own members of Parliament.

As you've mentioned there, we've seen significant resignations but also cabinet ministers who have decided to remain in office, as you mentioned, many of them who would essentially have to remain in office in order to keep the government going.

Directly addressing the Prime Minister yesterday telling him it is time to go, it is time to step down. Clearly, he isn't listening for those calls for him to step down. The question is whether or not this pressure mounting over the coming days will be enough or whether the 1922 Committee -- that is that committee of back benches who are set to meet next week to elect their new executive, whether they will have to change those rules which essentially would protect the Prime Minister from a vote of confidence for the next 12 months, given the last vote of confidence, in order to trigger an early vote of confidence that could very well push the Prime Minister out of office and out of Number 10 -- Max.

FOSTER: Nada, you know, in these moments, we often look to Downing Street in the position behind you with the sometimes that lectern will come out if there's a big national address to be made. People would expect that to happen if Boris Johnson has something to say of national importance at any point. But there's no signs presumably that the cables are out or anything. This is the thing, isn't it. We just are just not hearing enough from Boris Johnson himself.

BASHIR: No cables, no lectern. But of course, many are on edge keeping their eyes peels as we did with Theresa May not long ago waiting for some sort of sign from within Number 10. The Prime Minister though, he remains defiant. We heard yesterday from some of his closest allies still in government saying that he is up for the fight, he will push forward. And at this point, it doesn't sound like he is giving in. But, you know, it's still early. It's only 9:00 here and we've already seen that flurry of resignations coming in. And the fact that his number two, Nadhim Zahawi, the Chancellor now, just a little over 24 hours since he was appointed, now openly and publicly calling on the Prime Minister to step down, that is certainly going to speed things up and mount the pressure on the Prime Minister.

But of course, this is a Prime Minister who has faced scandals after scandal, scandals and challenges, Max, which would have forced any other Prime Minister to walk away, to step down, and yet he has weathered those. He has pushed through despite previous calls for him to resign. Not only over scandals but also obviously on policy areas as well. He received a lot of questions for the cost of living crisis which quite frankly the government hasn't had much success in over recent weeks.

The Prime Minister said that he plans on implementing changes and new policies, he wants to push through. He says the British public want the government to focus on those policy priorities, that's been his message throughout the last six months in response to all those scandals. And yet it doesn't seem that way. You mentioned the polling data, 7 out of 10 adults believe that the Prime Minister should step down. That's up from last month during that first vote of confidence which he only narrowly survived. The question is whether he'll be able to survive another vote of confidence if it does come around -- Max.

FOSTER: All eyes on Number 10 Downing Street today. Has Boris Johnson slept on what happened yesterday, his reaction to the cabinet arriving there was to fire, you know, a key ally Michael Gove. So, he's very much on the defensive but also on the attack. We haven't seen any sort of behavior like this from a Prime Minister in living memory really. The only sort of comparable situation was Theresa May. When she was in this situation. And when the cabinet winter her or the 1922 back bench committee went to her at least, and said time is up, she resigned.

This is a very different Prime Minister. I'm just going to answer a question that I've been asked, Nada, which is, you know, repeatedly I have to say across social media, is why can't the Queen just fire him. Yes, in theory she can, but she is there in a ceremonial role, she can't get involved in politics. She will run a million miles away from getting involved. She only takes direction on the advice of ministers.

So, unless the cabinet can get together and go to the Queen and ask her do this, I don't think that she will do anything in her own right. Do you think, Nada, there's any chance that, you know, the cabinet momentum, all eyes on the cabinet really because all the power is with them until the 1922 Committee make up their minds on what they are going to do -- do you think the cabinet might, you know, rally around what the chancellor said and, you know, potentially head down to Windsor and say the Queen has to do something here? Because she could respond to that potentially.

BASHIR: Well, Max, it does appear that the cabinet ministers are trying all possible routes to really talk sense into the Prime Minister. You heard senior lawmaker David Davis calling the Prime Minister on do the honorable thing, to step down. That is the sentiment we've been hearing from the cabinet ministers, from Nadhim Zahawi, the chancellor of the Exchequer, according to sources, Priti Patel, the home secretary who has until this point been a very loyal ally to Prime Minister Boris Johnson. Also joining that delegation, the doors at Number 10 calling on the Prime Minister to step down. The time is up, the game is up and he needs to leave office.

[04:15:00]

But of course, that pressure really would have forced any other Prime Minister to resign at this point it would seem. Prime Minister Boris Johnson doesn't seem to be taking any moves today, at least not yet, but it's still early days.

But of course, if that fails there are other options for the cabinet ministers. They could be seen as running around. We're seeing a significant shift in the fact that Nadhim Zahawi has taken his letter publicly. And we saw that behind closed doors delegation meeting with the PM yesterday. Now of course, Nadhim Zahawi taking that stand publicly, sharing that letter on Twitter. It is clear that the Prime Minister now has lost command of his cabinet, his number two of course, there with Nadhim Zahawi issuing that letter.

But really there are tensions. Whether or not they will that measure to go to the Queen, to go down to Windsor, that is still to be seen. There are of course all eyes very much focused on the 1922 Committee which will meet on Monday next week. Potentially we could see a vote of confidence pretty soon after that. It does feel as though, that is the direction we are heading in. And if a vote of confidence is called on the Prime Minister, it is widely believe that he would not survive that vote despite his thoughts otherwise according to his closest allies at this stage.

FOSTER: I have to say, I've covered a few of these handovers now and I think, you know, the 1922 Committee feels like a very long way off. I think the way things are playing out right now, it's impossible to imagine that Boris Johnson cannot resign, if not today, or has to be, you know, in the very near future. So, we're going to stick with this because we're waiting to see if the lectern basically comes out on Downing Street.

I mean, this is the tradition and Boris Johnson isn't a traditionalist. If he wants to make a national address of that level of importance, he will go to the lectern -- or they would have done it in the past. We'll wait to see whether not that goes out. And if that happens, then we're pretty much into that sort of final phase of his premiership.

But let's bring in Tim Bale, a politics professor at Queen Mary University of London. You would have seen the letter from the chancellor, the newly appointed chancellor like the rest of us have. Can Boris Johnson possibly exist in his post with a letter like that from his number two?

TIM BALE, PROFESSOR POLITICS, QUEEN MARY UNIVERSITY OF LONDON: No, he's going. I don't think there's any doubt now that he is going. We're getting briefings from journalists all over the place saying that he has now agreed to resign. So, I had be incredulous if it doesn't happen in the next few hours.

FOSTER: Yes, so, we are -- we're hearing the same report, so our BBC -- the national broadcaster here saying that he has decided to resign and the other lobby correspondents are getting similar sort of reports as well. I mean, he pushed it as far as he could, didn't he, right. So, he basically had the cabinet going to him yesterday, them asking for him to go. He didn't go. And that was really crossing the line for the likes of Zahawi.

BALE: Yes, it was. I mean, normally when we have seen Prime Ministers in this situation before, it really hasn't taken a public delegation of their colleagues to tell them their time is up, normally that conversation would be conducted in private and probably well before what we saw yesterday.

I think it's also the fact that the 1922 Committee was clearly going to change the rules. There was clearly going to be a vote of no confidence. And I think the fact that he would have lost that vote of no confidence by a very large margin and therefore been humiliated probably will have played a part in his decision. I think Nadhim Zahawi's letter probably made a difference as well, but I think it is the fear of complete humiliation that in the end would have made the difference. FOSTER: OK, Tim Bale, thank you for your perspective. All eyes on

Number 10 Downing Street. Looks almost inevitable that Boris Johnson will be coming out in the coming hours and giving some sort of statement about his future, that future, Nada, is not at n umber 10, is it. How will this play out? He won't go immediately, will he. Because effectively what will happen is he will announce his resignation which will spark a leadership contest, so he'll be a caretaker Prime Minister effectively.

BASHIR: Yes, absolutely, Max. And we are of course, hearing now from the national broadcast, the BBC, that the Prime Minister is set to announce that resignation, but of course we'll wait to see directly from the Prime Minister waiting for that lectern to come out as we've seen in the past with Teresa May and previous Prime Ministers. So, we will all wait for that.

But of course, that will trigger a leadership contest, the Prime Minister expected typically to stay in place as caretaker Prime Minister until the decision is made on the next leader of the party. There's been a lot of questions and a lot of eyes focused on who might take that position of course. There have been numerous names pushed out. At this stage it does feel as though there isn't one singular minister who would appear as the overwhelming choice for the Conservative Party as it has in the past.

There's been quite significant division in the party as some papers this morning touting the former chancellor, Rishi Sunak. He was of course, one the first to kind of issue the bombshell resignation alongside the health secretary Sajid Javid within minutes of each other. Sajid Javid gave a statement of resignation yesterday in the House of Commons, but interestingly, Rishi Sunak did not. So, we are still waiting to hear from him. But that can potentially be an option for the Conservative Party. There will of course be a lot of debate on that over the coming weeks. And of course, a lot of division still within the party when it comes to what direction they go next.

FOSTER: Of course, what, you know, effectively will happen when Boris Johnson comes out, he announces his resignation, and that sparks a leadership contest. We don't know whether or not he will decide to run in that contest. We just can't predict anything that Boris Johnson does because he's always broken the rules and that is really how he got into power, wasn't it. You know, he broke the rules on Brexit, he went against David Cameron who was the Prime Minister at the time, head to head against -- he is a disrupter. He is someone that, you know, many people in the public enjoyed seeing in politics because he shook the establishment up. But actually, that came back to haunt him ultimately. He wasn't responding in the way that he needed to respond when he was part of a team.

BASHIR: Yes, Max, absolutely, he is certainly a disrupter in Number 10. But of course, it seems that he may have pushed his limits a little too far breaking those rules, ignoring the public mood, ignoring the mood of his own party and cabinet ministers. And of course, has pushed him to this point now.

Now, he has of course, remained defiant throughout, maintaining that he is the right leader for the Conservative Party, maintaining that he will push through with his policy priorities which does appear this challenge has proved insurmountable for the Prime Minister at this stage. It will be interesting to hear what he has to say. Of course, we've seen him the last few days maintaining extremely defiant. Saying that he's up for the fight to push through.

He still believes that he is the Prime Minister that can secure a win for the Conservative Party. Of course, they've often seen, given the current status the next general election which of course may come sooner given the current circumstances. If we do see that lectern come out, it will be interesting to hear what Boris Johnson has to say. It wasn't that long ago that we saw Theresa May standing before that lectern giving quite an emotional, teary speech as she left Number 10 as Prime Minister. So, it will be interesting to see how Boris Johnson approaches this, what his parting words are if he does indeed announce his resignation that we've have heard from the national broadcaster that he intends to do.

FOSTER: I think it's pretty clear. I think all the main, you know, respected British political analysts are reporting the same thing. Tim Bale, you know, one of the reasons that Boris Johnson has stayed in power so long is that he hasn't had -- you know, there isn't really a competitor for his position, someone that the party likes and they feel will win an election. And that is still an issue, isn't it, but now we're going to get a sense of the runners and writers to replace him. Who would you put at the top of the list?

BALE: Well, I think the two men who first resigned from cabinet will clearly run, Rishi Sunak and Sajid Javid. Rishi Sunak's star has waned in recent times but it could be that he feels, you know, he can return to the popularity that he had during the pandemic, when he was dashing out lots of public money.

Sajid Javid probably could sell himself as a, you know, reasonably safe pair of hands. He's done a lot of jobs in cabinet and hasn't made a mess of any of them. That might be seen as a low bar by some people, but that is significant. A couple people who stayed in the cabinet to demonstrate their loyalty, that was their I guess strategy in the leadership campaign, Liz Truss, the foreign secretary and perhaps Ben Wallace the defense secretary, they will go for it as well.

I think that it is up to the Conservative Party whether it feels that it can go with one of those people who are strongly associated with the Boris Johnson era, if you like, or whether it wants a complete clean skid and it wants perhaps even to go to the back benches. So, someone like Tom Tugendhat, who is the chair of the foreign affairs committee, might fancy his chances as well.

And there's always Jeremy Hunt who stood against Boris Johnson in 2019 and lost. I think the problem for Hunt and I think the problem for anybody like Hunt is that the Conservative Party membership is strongly Eurosceptic and will be looking for someone who will maintain the kind of frictional relationship with the EU that Boris Johnson is well known for.

FOSTER: Yes, and I know the markets are going to be watching this very closely indeed, particularly the currency markets.

[04:25:00]

Because the idea being that someone coming in might have a better relationship with the European Union which would be healthy for the pound. But we'll wait to see what happens there. Just in terms of mechanics here, Boris Johnson will stay on presumably as a caretaker Prime Minister until replacement is announced. The latest that would probably happen is probably party conference and October but will be part of a negotiation presumably with the chair of the 1922 Committee of backbench MPs. And presumably that's what's going on at the moment. I mean, how would that be playing out behind the scenes?

BALE: Well, I think that's an interesting presumption. I'm not sure it's correct. I'm not sure that the Conservative Party will necessarily want Boris Johnson to be caretaker. Normally that would be unquestionable. But given his behavior over the last few days, it may even be -- and I'm not predicting this -- but it may be the case that they choose someone as interim Prime Minister, someone who's not going to stand in the leadership contest but someone who's just got a little bit more stability if you like about them than Boris Johnson.

But irrespective of that, yes, you're absolutely right, it would be for the 1922 Committee to organize the first stage of the leadership contest which will be all about the Conservative MPs voting. They have to choose in the end through a series of rounds two people who would then go ahead to a ballot of the membership in the country. And that probably numbers around 150,000 people now. So, we'll once again be in a situation where 150,000 of not representative people, or the demographically or ideologically will be choosing our Prime Minister.

FOSTER: Just to clarify on the caretaker element of this, will the 1922 Committee just appoint someone, you know, today or tomorrow. How would that work? Or would be (INAUDIBLE) Prime Minister?

BALE: Yes.

FOSTER: I mean, how would that work in terms of getting a temporary caretaker?

BALE: No, it wouldn't be the 1922 Committee. It would probably be the cabinet and indeed the parliamentary party as a whole would simply insist on Boris Johnson giving up the post and being replaced by someone else. He could of course refuse and we height get into a very difficult constitutional position. I'm not saying that that will necessarily happen, but if you are a Conservative MP looking at the events of the last few days, you are looking for a safe pair of hands to look after the party and look after the government for the next month or two while you conduct a leadership election. Would you really pick Boris Johnson as that man, that's all I'm saying.

FOSTER: OK, so we've heard confirm -- Downing Street is saying that the Prime Minister will make a statement to the country today. Let's go to Nada on that. Because he'll be doing it on the street -- well, you know, most Prime Minister's would be -- we can presume that he would because this is a big matter of state. I mean, what's everyone saying there about the timing of any sort of announcement?

BASHIR: We are expecting Prime Minister Boris Johnson to make a statement, that's according to Downing Street. Typically, we would see the Prime Minister come out with a lectern here at Downing Street. We'll wait to see. But we are expecting it just in the next few hours. They're on lunchtime here in London, so that could -- we could hear really the final fate of the Prime Minister in the next couple of hours.

There has been of course mounting speculation, real questions this morning, can the Prime Minister seriously push through this given the resignations we've seen, more than 50. They were coming in thick and fast this morning as some of the most senior allies and cabinet ministers stepping down, others still in office, calling on the Prime Minister to leave office, to step down from his post this morning.

Of course, there were questions whether he would push through. Yesterday he seemed pretty defiant, he said that he was up for a fight, that he would challenge any possible vote of confidence. He believed that he could win that vote of confidence. Clearly there has been a shift in his thinking, and perhaps those messages from his cabinet ministers yesterday speaking directly to him at a closed door meeting just behind me in Number 10. Maybe that message has finally got through. They simply cannot go on. He has lost command, loss the trust of his closest ministers, some of his closest allies in government and of course he has lost what is the support of the Conservative Party.

You mentioned earlier the polling data, 7 in 10 adults believe that the Prime Minister should step down. He seemed defiant, he seemed that he could push through for the next general election. Clearly that is not reflected in that polling data or in the messages we've been hearing from the Prime Minister's allies and ministers.

The question is what he will say in is this speech. Of course, we are expected that he will resign. He spoken to the chairman of the 1922 Committee conceding that he cannot go on given the current situation. And this is not too long since we heard Theresa May, his predecessor, giving her resignation statement on this street just a few years ago. Quite a teary emotional statement as she left office in the wake of Brexit chaos.

[04:30:00]