Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

British Prime Minister Boris Johnson to Resign. Aired 4:30-5a ET

Aired July 07, 2022 - 04:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[04:30:00]

NADA BASHIR, CNN REPORTER: The Prime Minister now finding himself in his own ... chaos, multiple scandals, multiple political crises which have engulfed Number 10. Will he address these? What will his statement be like? We are still waiting to see. And that of course, will be quite interesting and of course extraordinary spectacle given the last couple of months at Downing Street.

MAX FOSTER, CNN ANCHOR: It's been unprecedented, it's been historic. We should also take -- you know, we get caught up in all the Boris Johnson mania in the scandals and the chaos, we should really sort of take stock at some point and say that this Prime Minister who has had a profound effect on the United Kingdom, on the world. He was the guy that really drove through Brexit which has been so defining on this part of the world -- not just the United Kingdom.

But I want to get some clarity on some sort of reporting that we're seeing, some debate about whether or not Boris Johnson will be a caretaker Prime Minister or will be forced out straight away. Let's bring in Quentin Peel. He's a "Financial Times" commentator and an associate fellow with Europe Programme at Chatham House. You know, you're steeped in Parliamentary process, Quentin. There is a lot of confusion about what happens here as we understand it, there is some sort of negotiation going on between the 1922 Committee and Downing Street about the time table for Boris Johnson's departure. What does that even mean?

QUENTIN PEEL, ASSOCIATE FELLOW, EUROPE PROGRAMME, CHATHAM HOUSE: Well, what he appears to be saying is they'll not have a leader in place until the Conservative Party conference in October. So that's quite a long stretch to keep himself in office when he's actually clearly not got the confidence of his cabinet and fellow ministers. So, it really looks quite difficult for him to hang on in there. But that is clearly what he wants to do.

What one might expect would be perhaps for a caretaker like Dominic Robb to hold the fort. Because there are huge issues that need to be decided on all the time. Clearly the war in Ukraine is one. But what about the Northern Ireland protocol? That was all blowing up and coming to a head. And what it really needs is a calm pair of hands who's not going to be stirring things up in the way that Boris Johnson has been doing and actually hold the fort until they have got a clear leadership decided.

FOSTER: Theresa May is a good option, isn't she? She's gained a few since she was forced out.

PEEL: Well, that would be a very interesting point. It would be a bittersweet revenge for Theresa May. I still can't see Boris Johnson going quietly if you like. I think this whole fantasy that we've heard over the last 48 hours of him sort of refusing to back off is actually very much par for the course. He is the center of attention. That's what he is looking for. And from that point of view actually, it's another Boris triumph. Everybody is talking about Johnson.

FOSTER: I know, well, this is the thing isn't it. Let's go back to Tim. Because Tim, you know, one thing that certainly defined Boris Johnson's era is how he constantly keeps everyone on the back foot, they are constantly surprised by what he does. You know, we now know he's going to resign but, you know, how do you think he's going to handle it? Is he even going to take to the lectern outside Downing Street as his predecessors have done?

TIM BALE, PROFESSOR OF POLITICS, QUEEN MARY UNIVERSITY OF LONDON: If you thinks a showman like Boris Johnson is not going to take advantage of that one last time, I think that you've got another thing coming. He clearly will do that, I think.

I do think there is a question as we've said about whether he can continue in post another three months. I mean, the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom has an awful lot of power. Boris Johnson is known to exercise that power and also in some unconventional ways. I think that there would be quite a few cabinet ministers and members of the Conservative Party who would be anxious about what he could or would do during those two or three months. So, I think it is a very, very serious question.

Boris Johnson I guess will also be thinking about his post premiership career now. He'll be thinking about all the money he can make on the lecture circuit. All those books he can write. And there certainly will be a big audience I think for any kind of book which talks about the incredible events really of the last week or so.

[04:35:00]

FOSTER: Yes, when we talk about comparing him to Theresa May, he's not going to take that route, is he, hit the back benches and try to continue work from behind the scenes. This is someone that -- I think we're all assuming he will actually leave politics and he'll take a media came career, right?

BALE: And interestingly of course that will almost certainly mean a bi-election and that will be a very interesting test of whether this transition to a new leader has made a difference. Boris Johnson's constituency in Oxbridge is actually one that is possibly quite vulnerable to the Liberal Democrats in a general election, let alone a bi-election. And of course, they are the bi-election specialist. So, not only might Boris Johnson end up resigning the premiership but he could also cost his party another seat in Parliament and that I think would be a harbinger of things to come for the Conservatives if that were to happen. They'll be very worried about that. FOSTER: So just to clarify for everyone tuning in, Boris Johnson is

finally going to resign. It came under -- came after, you know, face- to-face really with his cabinet. He didn't meet them all in one go yesterday, he met them one by one. They said you needed to go. But the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Nadhim Zahawi, sent out a letter just, you know, about an hour ago saying he had to go. And after that, it was almost seen as inevitable, although nothing really inevitable with Boris Johnson. He's so unpredictable.

But that is his front door. And we expect a lectern to come out at some point and him to give a speech where he announces he's going to resign. What isn't clear is when he will be going. Because I think everyone has agreed -- all the people we've spoken to this morning -- that this is the sort of Prime Minister who will want to stay on as long as possible, but that is a matter of negotiation actually with members, senior members of his party, who will try to figure that out.

Richard Johnson is a lecturer at Queen Mary University of London, but we're going to speak to Nina dos Santos first. Because -- let's actually stick with Richard because you're there and waiting for us so kindly. And now I can see Nina as well. It's chaos here as well as in Downing Street. Richard, what do you expect Boris Johnson to say in the speech in Downing Street? Is this a showman. He didn't want to go. How he is going to spin it?

RICHARD JOHNSON, LECTURER, QUEEN MARY UNIVERSITY OF LONDON: Well, I mean is clear that he doesn't feel that the charges against him merit what's happened. I mean, that's clear in the sense that he's resisted resignation really until he couldn't fill his cabinet anymore and his closest advisors pushed him out at the very end. So, I think that he is going to go back to the big vision stuff.

I don't think he's going to be particularly contrite. There might be an apology here or there. But I think is really going to be talking about the Boris Johnson kind of populist conservative brand that he championed and won the last election on and I think that that is the vision that he is going to try to -- try to speak to, to say, look, this is going to be my legacy, I'll try to hand it on to someone else. But I think that he's not going under -- you know, he is not leaving happily or certainly circumstances of his choosing or in ones that he believes that he merits to be removed.

FOSTER: And Nina let's come to you on that legacy. You've covered British politics, you've also covered European politics. There's no doubt that he has a place in history simply because he was the front of that Brexit campaign which has had a profound effect on the whole continent.

NINA DOS SANTOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right. And you know, people across the continent have very much looked at Boris Johnson and on some occasions rolled their eyes particularly when it comes to reneging on various agreements that the government appeared to draft, sign in ink and then just essentially shred and tear up. I'm thinking most notably of the Northern Ireland protocol. And that issue is one that his successor will have to get to grips with pretty soon. It's one of the thorniest political issues to try and put Brexit to bed. There will probably be many European capitals who will be glued to the

television sets now thinking, well look, you know, what comes next. Boris Johnson was somebody who really likes to poke Europe in the eye a little bit, didn't he, he liked to antagonize to keep the Europeans on their toes. He of course famously threw his weight behind the Brexit campaign and that is what energized it. So that didn't gain him many friends in Brussels if you like.

[04:40:00]

And it's ironic because Brussels, actually, if we look at Boris Johnson's career obit, so to speak, is where he actually forged his political connections at first when he was a journalist. His father -- his family was also journalists in Brussels as well. So, this relationship between Europe and other world leaders for Boris Johnson has been one of those relationships that has kept them on their toes.

The big question now is -- as everybody looks at this, and many Europeans have often said that, you know, the Tory leadership contests play out in a very uncomfortable and public way for many European diplomats and leaders to see. The thing is what they will be looking for is somebody hopefully who they feel that when they make an agreement with, that they can actually trust will not tear that agreement thereafter. Because Boris Johnson on the international stage has formally doing that particularly with regards to some of the finer details of Brexit -- Max.

FOSTER: Nina, thank you. We're going to go to Downing Street again. Nada is standing by. You're really in the thick of it there, aren't you. We don't know who's going to take over from him. This is really about what he will say when he resigns.

He does have a legacy to speak to. Nina was talking about that there. He has also got the pandemic he can speak to, a huge amount of criticism early on in the pandemic. He acted too late according to most people and most experts, but ultimately, he did really step up, didn't he. He led on the vaccine program which was world renowned. He then moved on to the Ukraine crisis and he's seen as a leader there. He's held up as a hero in Ukraine. So, do you think he's going to bring those two elements as well into whatever he has to say today which will be about legacy?

BASHIR: Yes, absolutely that will certainly be the focus. We've seen the Prime Minister really taking charge on that COVID effort. There were many criticisms around that, most recently of course he has played the statesman in the war in Ukraine, supporting the Ukrainian government, President Zelenskyy of course, issued his thanks to Boris Johnson on numerous occasions.

But he also has faced heavy criticism over the last few months. He may not touch on that, but certainly something that will be in the minds of many Conservative MPs, opposition MPs and of course members of the public. The British Prime Minister most recently, of course, directly implicated in the Partygate scandal which saw numerous twists and turns, that scandal never seem to be put to bed. The Prime Minister obviously coming out denying those allegations at first and later revealed to have actually taken part in those social gatherings and parties himself. And that saw him face that heavy criticism, calls for him to resign also. But he did seem to weather the storm of the Partygate scandal.

We've also of course seen pretty disastrous and historic local election losses for the Conservative Party over Boris Johnson's watch. Over the last few months, we've seen most recently those bi-election losses for the Conservative Party. So many MPs, particularly on the local level have questioned whether or not the reputation, integrity of the Prime Minister has perhaps tarnished their roles, their seats in their local constituencies. That has been a key concern of the Conservative MPs.

And we have heard reaction from a number of MPs already to the Prime Minister's decision to resign. Of course, it is not even 10:00 here in London and we've seen that real snowballing effect of those resignations from the first bombshell resignation announced on Tuesday by former Chancellor Rishi Sunak and Health Secretary Sajid Javid. And now most recently you're hearing from the former Justice Secretary Robert Buckland saying that Boris Johnson has bowed to the inevitable.

The Conservative MP Tobias Ellwood saying many are glad that Boris Johnson has finally recognized the damage that was being done. And that is really certainly the central theme of all of this. The Prime Minister's continuous scandals, continuous challenges that we've seen at Number 10 that really placed a burden on Conservative lawmakers who've had to bear the brunt.

We've seen just yesterday in Parliament, the Prime Minister's question time in the House of Commons, MPs saying that they were forced to go out and play the party line for media interviews despite the fact that it didn't stand up to truth and that they have bared the brunt of that at their local constituency level. They fear of course that the Prime Minister was bringing the Conservative Party down, perhaps hurting their chances for the next general election.

This of course has all come to a head most recently over the scandal with Chris Pincher, where we saw the Prime Minister later emerging to have known about the historic sexual abuse allegations before appointing him to that position of deputy chief whip.

So, this Prime Minister that has been embroiled in scandal after scandal, challenge after challenge despite those perhaps positive points that he might want to focus on as a back seat effort. As you mentioned the war in Ukraine, his response to that and of course in his view, getting Brexit done. Although we've seen recent challenges to that as well.

The Prime Minister does have a lot of questions increasingly as well with the cost of living crisis. For many voters, for many members of the public that is also perhaps at the forefront of their concerns. The fact that they are really struggling with the cost of living crisis. The welfare system that has quite frankly really failed some of the country's most vulnerable people.

[04:45:00]

So, the Prime Minister does have a lot to answer for, but he will be giving that statement today. And as you said, we are expecting him to focus on perhaps the more positive points from his legacy rather than those quite difficult and damning points -- Max.

FOSTER: The cameras just positioning themselves for the statement that we expect to happen, we don't know when it will happen, could happen anytime. But I think the decision has been made Boris Johnson is going to resign.

We're just learning really about the terms of that resignation. And that's what he's going to be debating with other members of his party. So once that's done, I'm sure we'll see Boris Johnson, he will be talking to his legacy.

I just want to talk about something that the opposition leader Keir Starmer is speaking to. He spoke about it yesterday, again today. And that is the idea that the change in leadership isn't enough, there needs to be a wider change and he is suggesting that there should be a general election as opposed to just an election for another leader of the Conservative Party and therefore Prime Minister. Quentin, what are your thoughts on that? A snap election as opposed to snap election purely for a new Conservative leader

PEEL: Well, I think that the Conservative Party will do anything to avoid that because the polls are looking pretty dreadful and all the chaos and confusion surrounding Boris Johnson has only made matters worse. So, I think they'll resist that as much as possible.

Having said that, the longer Boris Johnson stayed in office, the worse it was for the Conservative Party. And so, the Labour Party was almost actually willing him to stay on, I think. And really, we have a situation with a very large majority in Parliament but that he is at war with itself. And a huge number of alternative candidates are probably going to throw their hats in the ring for the succession.

So, whatever happens, they need somebody to unite the party again. Because whatever Boris Johnson's legacy has been, he's been a divisive influence and that he's failed to unite the country and he's failed to unite his party.

FOSTER: OK, just lost your sound there. The door is moving there at Downing Street. We're all a bit twitchy about who is going to be. I'm with Lord Hayward. We're going to speak to him in just a moment,

ROBERT HAYWARD, MEMBER OF THE HOUSE OF LORDS: Do I look at you or --

FOSTER: Yes, you could look at me or you can look at the camera. Look at me.

But we're going to go to Nina first. Nina, you know, everyone is already talking about who could potentially replace him and this has always been his great defense, right? He hasn't had anyone there waiting in the wings, nudging him out. Why he lasted so long arguably. And it's still an open field. But who are you looking at as potential successors to Boris Johnson?

DOS SANTOS: Well, the issue here is that the Conservative Party if you look at what happened towards the end of Margaret Thatcher's time and when eventually she had to go under similar circumstances, although it took less time and then John Major replaced her. Is that the Conservative Party doesn't have a great history of compromise candidates if you like. And considering is that this is party that's been rocked by very divisive issues like for instance Brexit, the pandemic response, Partygate, as you heard there.

And now in future it's going to have to deal with really, really persistent inflationary spikes. Particularly when we head towards the autumn and then the fuel price cap comes off. These are big issues that obviously they need various candidates to manage to assuage all of these concerns amongst Conservative voters and also members of their own party. And it doesn't appear to be one particular person who would, you know, fulfill all of those roles.

We do have -- if you look on the fringes, we've got for instance Tom Tugendhat who has a history as a journalist, as a multilingual scholar. He's been in the army as a reservist. But he hasn't -- and he is the chair of the Foreign Affairs Select Committee, but he hasn't actually had any cabinet posting. So, he is somebody who could emerge certainly as somebody who could throw their hat into the ring but perhaps may not have enough government experience as yet.

On the other side we've got Liz Truss who's been burnishing her leadership credentials for some time. She is the foreign secretary. Again, the question is will she be able to rally enough support. We know Rishi Sunak of course about a month and a half ago had real scrutiny over his wife's tax affairs and that didn't look good particularly considering he's the richest member of government at a time when of course he is having to skewer the economy to a precipitous plunge in people's living standards and real concerns, as I said in the autumn about an inflationary spike.

Nadhim Zahawi as well might also throw his hat into the ring. But he just like Sajid Javid, the former health secretary and Rishi Sunak have long histories in the business world. So obviously their business interests will come under scrutiny.

[04:50:00]

So, it's not just the politics of these individual characters and the people who might rally around them that could count, but it's also the fact that this is a party that has been in power now for more than a decade, about three terms. What people really essentially want to see, from whichever party governs the United Kingdom, we now hear more frequently on the streets, Max, is some sense of vision, some sense of confidence and obviously after what many people regard the shambolic years of the Johnson era which is now coming toward an end, some sense of responsibility and focus -- Max.

FOSTER: OK, Nina thank you. I'm joined now by Lord Hayward a member of the House of Lords, a respected member of the Conservative Party. Can I just first of all ask you on Nina's point, I mean, who are the runners and riders to replace Boris Johnson? It's not clear, is it?

HAYWARD: It is not clear. It is a strikingly broad field. There have been notably preparing their ground because politics is the way it is. And everybody thinks, well, I might be the next leader, although not everybody, but a lot of people do. But is a very broad field. Suella Braverman threw her hat into the ring last night. I know Suella well. I'm surprised.

FOSTER: The public don't know her.

HAYWARD: They don't know her. But there will be a range of people from the Remainers, like Jeremy Hunt and Tom Tugendhat through to Brexiteers and they obviously will include people like Rishi Sunak. You might have Sajid Javid having been somebody who is perceived to have moved at the right time or not depending whether you are a strong Boris Johnson person or an opponent.

FOSTER: All the names that you're putting out there, I mean, they're very well-known to us, particularly well-known to you, but they don't resonate like Boris Johnson. And this is one of the reasons he lasted so long because he had that public, you know, appeal, didn't he, and had that campaigning ability. So, is that still something that everyone is very concerned about going into a potential general election frankly?

HAYWARD: I think a new Prime Minister whoever it may happen to be will have probably about a year and a half and therefore it's not a case of we need a name. In fact, whether it's in TV, or industry, or commerce or politics, actually many people recruit somebody who's not like the previous chief executive because that may be part of in many people's minds the job specification. And to be honest, there aren't many people like Boris. His great asset was his personality previously, but it's actually been one of his biggest problems in the last week or so.

FOSTER: We're looking at the door of 10 Downing Street, you like the rest of us, are waiting as to hear what he has to say. But you were actually in the 1922 Committee, weren't you --

HAYWARD: I was.

FOSTER: -- yesterday. Describe the atmosphere and -- when it was pretty clear he wasn't going to resign last night. He was forced out this morning, wasn't he.

HAYWARD: Sure, sure.

FOSTER: So, what conversation would have happened as well this morning in terms of timeline?

HAYWARD: I think the mood for the Tory Party yesterday, the ball started rolling down the hill ever faster yesterday morning. And there was a combination of febrile conversation going on all over the place. And the frustration that Boris wouldn't go. And sadly, I'm old enough that I that I actually saw almost exactly the same position in 1990 when Mrs. Thatcher went. And you had to have in 1990 sign senior cabinet ministers talking to then Prime Minister one by one. And you had exactly the same.

FOSTER: She left after that. That was the difference.

HAYWARD: That's the key difference. You're absolutely right. We all knew that Mrs. Thatcher having been told the truth by her closest allies would go. We've never thought that would be the case --

FOSTER: So that was the real shock after that cabinet grouping went into Downing Street, asked him to leave and his response was firing one of the cabinet members.

HAYWARD: Absolutely, and that is the stark difference between those two personalities. Very big personalities. But once was a disagreement on policy, the other one has been very much a disagreement on personality.

FOSTER: So, as we look at Downing Street, and the podium that we expect to come out, what are you expecting from the speech from Boris Johnson?

HAYWARD: As I understand it, and Boris is Boris and things could change, he's going to say that he's going to resign as leader of the Conservative Party, but he wants to stay on until there is a new leader. That is going to cause some difficulty because many of the ministers who've resigned have resigned because of the questions of integrity and decency. And there will be a fair amount of pressure -- don't know whether it will be a compromise that's removed, but there will be a fair amount of pressure to say no, Dominic Robb as deputy Prime Minister steps in.

FOSTER: Because that's his role to step in.

HAYWARD: Absolutely, he did it during COVID. And he's generally credited as having done it well.

FOSTER: I mean, when he comes out, he would have agreed with the chair of the 1922 Committee what the timeline is, so that would all be agreed by the time he comes out presumably.

[04:55:00]

He can't do something -- well, I mean, he's a very unpredictable character, but could he just say I'm going to stay until October?

HAYWARD: That is part of what I think his intention. It is to say I'm stepping down as leader of the Conservative Party, setting and drawing the election progress but stay until he is replaced as leader. Which could well be in September or October.

FOSTER: OK, let's just talk a bit about legacy because whatever happens and when all of the mechanics of this have gotten in future, he definitely has a place in political history, hasn't he. What would you put at the top of the list, Brexit?

HAYWARD: I think Brexit top, but COVID vaccinations next. And the Ukraine as something which depending on how that evolves may well be seen as his greatest credit.

FOSTER: Because by leaving the European Union, he was able to step in and offer the support to Zelenskyy more quickly.

HAYWARD: Absolutely. There's no question that that is perceived as one of his successes up to now. COVID on exactly the same basis.

FOSTER: He was able to buy vaccines before other European countries.

HAYWARD: Absolutely. Developing the vaccines in this country and elsewhere, buying them in, buying them in large quantities, and therefore being more free than many of the other European countries were.

FOSTER: If Keir Starmer gets away with pushing for a general election, presumably you're quite concerned because the Conservatives have not come out of it well?

HAYWARD: They haven't come out of it at all well. There is no doubt the mood amongst Tory MPs, is we do not want a general election, we would be livid if one were called.

FOSTER: We might lose our jobs.

HAYWARD: Because we would lose our jobs. Because it's not just that -- for the individual MPs it is. But you're not only there as an MP but you're there on behalf of the counselors, the associations.

FOSTER: Lord Hayward, thank you so much.

HAYWARD: Thank you.

FOSTER: We've got to cross to "EARLY START" now. We're keeping an eye on that door.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

END